Out of the FOG

Today is my 46th birthday. My uPDw asked me what I wanted for my birthday a few days ago.

After 8 months of no sex at her insistence, I said, "I'd really love to connect with you emotionally and have sex."

She said, "That's not gonna happen. You say that I cut off sex. But that's your narrative that is so critical of me. our RELATIONSHIP isn't in a place for sex."
I ask over and over what we can do to improve our emotional connect.
I bring her flowers.
I buy her gifts.
I ask her to go for walks.
It goes on and one for months, and I still feel she is emotionally unavailable - then she blames me for why she doesn't feel an emotional connection with me and won't engage in affection (even non-sexual, kissing, hugging, etc.)  It's exhausting, humiliating, and frustrating. I feel so lonely in my marriage relationship.

I've insisted that we see a clinically experienced marriage therapist together to help us, but she has not been willing to do so up until the last week. (I've finally started to gain the courage to leave the marriage and told her last week I couldn't continue unless she's willing to see someone together to help us. She finally agreed, and the next day told me she loved me and held my hand for the first time in months. I realize there are no guarantees, and the hope of real intimacy is pretty low. But I want to exhaust all reasonable possibilities to have a meaningful, loving marriage. I'm searching diligently for clinically qualified therapists with experience working with PD's/Codependency dynamics in marriages. Even with a great therapist, I'm realistic and cautious.)

She sees me as a "hidden abuser" and replays every fault I've ever done. No focus whatsoever on herself or awareness of how her extreme reactions affect me. Any attempt to bring up ways that hurt me create a spiral of berating, boomerang conversations, circular arguments, etc, at least until I joined Out of the FOG and started implementing tools from the Toolbox such as noJADE and MC. The crazy making reality is that the more I worked on myself and stopped JADE'ing, engaging in circular arguments, placating, apologizing over and over for the same things that she brings up about me... the more disconnected we are. It's baffling. I lived for  years with the belief that if I would change the things about myself that she said hurt her (and there were plenty of them) that she would give me the love and affection that I desire. I was wrong.

She has gone to her own individual therapist on and off for the last four years "to heal from the pain I've caused her." (Three different therapists over the last four years)

This morning as we did a family birthday tradition of eating cake and opening a few cards and presents before our four teen kids head to school, I opened a present from her.
It was an art piece of a couple holding hands.
Oh no...
I couldn't hold back the tears. Enormous grief and sadness.
I tried to keep it together but I couldn't.
It evoked so much emotion from me.
My wife won't touch me, but she's giving me an art piece on my birthday of a loving couple sharing an affectionate moment.
I retreated to my room and felt so ashamed that I would cry on my birthday in front of my kids and have to leave the room.
She asked if she said or did something.
I told her I would talk about it later.
I didn't know the proper thing to do.
A bit later after collecting myself, I communicated, "I appreciate the gifts. When I saw the picture of the couple together holding hands, I felt deep grief. That's what was going on."
She said, "I hear that you don't like it. I will return it."
She sounded curt and annoyed and angry.
I tried one more time (oops).
"I'm feeling sad, but I'm trying to move closer to you. This isn't how our relationship is always going to be, but I'm very tender in the area of affectionate touch."
This then moved into the beginning of her explaining how she is afraid of me and if I want her to feel safe, then she questions the choices that I am making in the relationship."
I start to feel confused and anxious.
It's extremely difficult to feel enormous grief and perceive anger and coldness coming from he.
I (wisely I think) said I didn't feel comfortable discussing this anymore until we can discuss this with a therapist.
I listened to a podcast about EFT therapy where the presenter talked about the Tango and how emotionally and physically connected you must be to engage in it.
I thought, "Wow. I'd love to do a Tango lesson on my birthday with my wife."
She agreed to go with me.
This morning after the incident with my tears at the art picture, she suggested that I consider canceling the Tango lesson.
I said, "I don't want to cancel it. I want to do it, with or without you. I hope you still go with me."
She said, "I think you need to consider if it's good for you to go."
Confused again.
Ugh.
My soul feels like it just got scraped with garden tools.
Here's a gross window into where my head is at right now (what is going through my head): I'm aware of feeling GUILTY for feeling grief and causing her pain, reacting to a gift with despair - how mean and rude of me. Something must be wrong with me that I'm so sensitive.  I should apologize.

But NO. NO. NO.
That's sick.

That's the effects of years of toxic thinking. Right?

I'm stepping outside myself and realizing how horribly destructive the nagging negative self-talk, shame, and Caretaker behaviors are.

We later did the Tango lesson together and I had a lot of fun. I sort of felt like she was doing it out of duty, but it was still fun.

It's tough on a birthday to be denied real love and affection from the one you hope to be closest to. I'm finding other things that I am genuinely grateful for, and that helps. But I still go in and Out of the FOG.

Thankful for this community.

-WH

Sorry you had a tough birthday on top of everything else.

I can relate to the gift thing. My H doesn't do gifts or cards for anything, even birthdays and Christmas, but for some reason he gave me a Valentine's Day card a couple of years ago, and some chocolates or something.

In the context of all the criticism, blame for his whole life, withering resentment, and just plain not liking me, I assumed I was going to get some joke card. I had my MC on and was fine. I open the card. It has a cat on it and it says he wants to spend all nine lives with me. My MC cracked a teeny bit, I think I breathed in a little sharply and my eyes git a bit watery. But I said heartily, "aw, how sweet, thanks!"

Inside, I was torn to shreds.

It was grief, like you said. To get a simple little card like that, with a sentiment that should have been quite easy for a married couple, but it was just so baffling, so untrue. With everything he says, all his contempt for me, what a burden he constantly tells me I am to him, he'd do it again eight more times?

He jumped on my reaction. Why did I react that way? Why did I look like that? I smiled my vacant vapid smile and said it was lovely, thank you so much. He kept pecking away and I just held on. If I had been honest at all it would have ruined the day.

It hurts. I'm sorry.

Hi Weary Husband,

Happy Birthday 🎁🎉🎈🎂 sending warmth and support your way!

I'm so glad that you are here.

I'm also so sorry to hear what you are going through. Many people here are or were in similar situations to you
you are in the right place! With holding physical affection is one of the many forms of emotional abuse your partner is showing to you. I get in because I was in a relationship like that. I am female and about 10 years ago I was in a one year relationship with a guy who would hardly touch me. It really savaged my sense of self confidence (which it was meant to). He was also very emotionally abusive in other ways. It turned out that he was really gay and cheating on me. He just wanted to use me financially. Charming huh? I left eventually with the help of a therapist. Then I took a year off dating and did solid therapy which helped enormously. Note: when I eventually did get away and felt my energy levels surge. Later on I found a wonderful partner who was very loving in every way!

Anyway, enough on me. I just want you to know that you are not alone. Just sending you support and a big hug :bighug:
There are great resources here to help. Hope you can get in every bit of self-care, outside support, little escapes and kindness you can get. I know it may not seem like it now but there is hope - maybe not where you expect it, maybe you'll find support elsewhere. Anyway, here for you

Jolly and Square,

Thanks so much for your kind words of comfort and understanding.

I'm processing a lot with a therapist right now. It's a deep and lengthy process unraveling the complex dimensions of why I continue to stay in a relationship with someone who continually rejects me, abandons me emotionally/sexually, and attacks and blames me - and why I was attracted to her in the first place and continued to choose to be with her. What imprinting in my childhood affected me (I grew up in chaos (uNPD father who abandoned me).

My self esteem has been so low for so long that I continually felt there was something wrong with me. I continually pursue her though she's unavailable and unwilling - yet when I set boundaries and create space for myself, she tells me how "it's killing her" and how much she loves and cares for me. My heart leaps for a little while and I start to pursue her again, only to be rejected. It's so confusing. And I'm afraid to leave because "I don't want to hurt her." Wow. As I process more and more, it's baffling to me how I continue to think this will all magically change year after year.

The tools here and the support of Out of the FOG members continue to be a lifeline of sanity and practical help.
Sending back virtual hugs :)
-WH

Your story just hurts.

I'd like to point out this: there are any things that a toxic or disordered person may do on purpose to hurt or manipulate another. But I think oftentimes the incoherence factor is not on purpose. My MIL may write the nastiest letter imaginable, calling us names and accusing us of terrible things. Then she may write, three weeks later, "you know I'll always love you." Is that manipulation?

I sometimes think it is them trying to reach out. Not doing it very well, mind you, but trying. Since you are posting in the Committed to Working On It space, I'll offer it: I think many folks with PDs are truly suffering inside, and it is a defensiveness and insecurity that drives many of the common behaviors. That's my feeling. This justifies nothing, and doesn't obligate us at all. But it can be an emotional grounding point to realize that monstrous behavior doesn't always come from monsters.

So much good strength to you.

Weary,

You wrote "...she tells me how "it's killing her" and how much she loves and cares for me. My heart leaps for a little while and I start to pursue her again, only to be rejected. It's so confusing."

There again lies the IDD cycle; the classic hoovering bait to a spouse desperate for relationship with a legal spouse who greatly enjoys the push-pull, because it freshly and continuously feeds their need to be wanted.  PD's internally do not like who they are, so they hoover and bully to keep others from seeing the internal reality. The push-pull of the IDD cycle feeds that inner-child. 

Until you accept it and protect yourself from remaining on the hamster-wheel of the IDD cycle, you will remain "confused".  Look back at your posts since your arrival here at Out of the FOG and the good advice you have been provided by many, and possibly consider that your writing is repetitive in nature.  That repetition in storylines can be a good resource to look back at yourself over a period of time, and is a common writing trait here, until the non accepts the reality that exists with their PD's and moves forward.

It's hard to accept the possibilities that your spouse is truly a PD and I'm sorry you experience this, but I encourage you to to accept the reality and move forward, finally getting off the wheel of the IDD cycle.  That can be done, within the context of marriage if you so choose. 

Btw, happy birthday to you. 😃

SoT

Dang.

SoT, you are really nailing it these days. Well said. I think many of us learn a lot by reviewing our own storyline upon arrival here.

And it is true: getting off the hamster wheel doesn't have to mean ending a relationship.

And also, +1 for remembering to say....

:fireworks:Happy Birthday! :fireworks:

Starboard,

Thanks for the kind words.  Ive been in Weary's shoes, and also currently in the similar shoes of many here at Out of the FOG.  Such a great number of us are on the same trail, but just at different stages along the journey, as the trail presents different challenges regarding certain factors along the way.   But luckily, the Out of the FOG toolbox is excellent and crucial to belong in everyone's backpack, for all hikers to use daily as a variety of issues arise along the trail.  In general each of us is hiking solo, but interconnected to folks farther ahead/behind and all can communicate their experiences to others, so all can benefit. 

Its reassuring and empowering to be on the path with others, and also humbling and tricky when the trail gets to a fork of critical and potentially risky decision-making.  Some choose the easier fork which they find simply loops them around, father back on the trail they already walked (IDD hamster wheel), and each time, they face the same hardships and choices once again.  It takes bravery and adventure to take the more difficult path and luckily, there are others ahead to encourage us that the difficult path will eventually reveal later, when the thick cutting briars start to recede, that it was a path well chosen. 

Im hoping for those brave choices for Weary, for others and also myself (even in the context of marriage), when we reach the next fork on the journey.  Cheers and again, thanks for your kindness. 

SoT

SoT and Starboard,

Sheesh. I'm a mess. I don't think I could have survived the last year without faithful, wise friends with whom I can be vulnerable and can be accurate mirrors for myself, a good therapist, and the support of the Out of the FOG community.

I want to get off the hamster wheel.

SoT, you're absolutely right. The same dynamics keep playing over and over and over, and they will continue.  I'm making slow progress... two steps forward, one step back. I feel like I'm trying to pull my way out of a tar pit.

I'm committed to moving forward. I'm learning so much from your posts and responses.

Grateful,
WH

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 03, 2021, 11:28:39 PM
SoT and Starboard,

Sheesh. I'm a mess. I don't think I could have survived the last year without faithful, wise friends with whom I can be vulnerable and can be accurate mirrors for myself, a good therapist, and the support of the Out of the FOG community.

I want to get off the hamster wheel.

SoT, you're absolutely right. The same dynamics keep playing over and over and over, and they will continue.  I'm making slow progress... two steps forward, one step back. I feel like I'm trying to pull my way out of a tar pit.

I'm committed to moving forward. I'm learning so much from your posts and responses.

Grateful,
WH

Weary,

You can do this for yourself, and for your children, regardless of your decision regarding your wife.  A possible question to ponder;

If you were to choose to divorce, and miraculously got full custody, yet purposefully remain single for the rest of your life, what would you do differently, than what do currently? 

I urge you to think about and daydream about some areas of your life.  I would bet good money that you daydream in these areas already. But again, in this exercise, no current or future spouse and no dating.  Examples are:

Work
Kids
Friends
Other Family Members
Hobbies
Daily Schedule
New Adventurous Ideas
Travels
Your House
Your Health/Body
Weary's Fashion Preferences
Others Areas?

If you choose to play along with me here, consider replying on this thread with your detailed list/thoughts on those areas/other areas.

SoT

SOT I'll play!

Work no changes there except I'd probably work later occasionally to be more caught up.
Kids I'd definitely work on strengthening my relationship with Ds, spending more time with him doing fun things
Friends I would spend more time with friends
Other Family Members partly due to pd issues in FOO partly due to updh's issues, I am nc with my foo. I don't see that changing. I'd probably end up losing any relationships with updh's extended family... Some of that would be sad to me as they are the only family I've had for a long time...I would try to maintain some of those relationships but I can't see it working out well.
Hobbies I would read more, watch way less tv, get more outdoor time.
Daily Schedule I would go to bed earlier, get more sleep, eat way less at dinner time, work later, exercise after work, sleep in on weekends, spend less time on chores and errands, schedule more fun stuff for weekends and even do fun things spur of the moment!
New Adventurous Ideas see above! More outdoor time, more exercise and nature, more travel, more live music
Travels assuming I had the money.... Disney, Universal, Montreal, nova Scotia, Scotland, Beach, lakes, mountains...
Your House would sell, downsize/rent... Less upkeep and work for me.
Your Health/Body see above: more exercise and fresh air, more sleep, healthier eating habits, less stress
Fashion Preferences would wear what I want/when I want free of judgment!
Others Areas?

Quote from: 11JB68 on September 05, 2021, 11:25:36 AM
SOT I'll play!

Work no changes there except I'd probably work later occasionally to be more caught up.
Kids I'd definitely work on strengthening my relationship with Ds, spending more time with him doing fun things
Friends I would spend more time with friends
Other Family Members partly due to pd issues in FOO partly due to updh's issues, I am nc with my foo. I don't see that changing. I'd probably end up losing any relationships with updh's extended family... Some of that would be sad to me as they are the only family I've had for a long time...I would try to maintain some of those relationships but I can't see it working out well.
Hobbies I would read more, watch way less tv, get more outdoor time.
Daily Schedule I would go to bed earlier, get more sleep, eat way less at dinner time, work later, exercise after work, sleep in on weekends, spend less time on chores and errands, schedule more fun stuff for weekends and even do fun things spur of the moment!
New Adventurous Ideas see above! More outdoor time, more exercise and nature, more travel, more live music
Travels assuming I had the money.... Disney, Universal, Montreal, nova Scotia, Scotland, Beach, lakes, mountains...
Your House would sell, downsize/rent... Less upkeep and work for me.
Your Health/Body see above: more exercise and fresh air, more sleep, healthier eating habits, less stress
Fashion Preferences would wear what I want/when I want free of judgment!
Others Areas?

11JB68,

Thank you for playing along!  I enjoy the daydreaming and playing this game periodically with myself as self encouragement!   

Next step: Let's assume you have mastered the toolbox tools of MC, noJADE and created great boundary rules for yourself to protect you from remaining in the face of judgement from your uPDh and face of family members with whom you don't desire to maintain relationships.

Which of the desired choices you wrote in your above reply could you ACTUALLY begin to do right now, even while married to your uPDh?  If you find ones in the list that you believe you could not do while married to uPDh, list the reason why (with your toolbox protection actively working for you).  What reaction would you face from uPDh on the items you could do?   

*Remember that in my original scenario question, you have full custody of the kids.

Also, since in a marriage the 50% rule exists as well. So for example the house sale would wait due to the marriage and uPDh's rights.  You may attempt to strike some of that travel off the list, but (for example) you can travel alone, with a kid(s), with girlfriends, so think deeply about this list, before you scratch one off.   

In this daydreaming game, you can't scratch one off because uPDh gets mad, tries to control or manipulate you or money, because boundaries and the toolbox can protect you from these attempts by uPDh. This type of brainstorming can actually reveal where we, as full adults with adult rights, are being controlled and manipulated by PD's, versus lovingly encouraged by a spouse to reach our goals for ourselves.  This type of exercise can help us begin reaching our goals for ourselves RIGHT NOW.  In addition, younger kids (pretend you have full custody so some limitations will exist)  will learn to model our strong behaviors and may find life more enjoyable with us at the helm of ourselves, pushing the PD's behaviors to the side (with the toolbox), rendering the behaviors ineffective.  (Still a pain to deal with but mostly ineffective)

Since we are married to PD's who desire to selfishly feed themselves by controlling us and others, it should be our goals to re-acquire ourselves, shed the PD's attempts at control and manipulation while in the marriage, and do so without doing back to them, the same behaviors we loath from our PD spouses.  Thanks for potentially playing along and hopefully Weary replies with his list as well, and then answers this next step. 

Lastly, I'm not desiring to hijack this thread, but provide the OP(Weary) some support as he requested in the original post.  I see no problem for others to play along as well because it may encourage Weary to read other's lists and revelations that some of us are, in reality, only being held back by OUR OWN  unwillingness to take bold steps, down the difficult fork in the path versus the mentally easier path of self-restriction and compliance/caving to the PD's desires for us, that sadly keeps us looping back around on the PD's IDD hamster wheel of control.

If the mods desire a new thread is needed, i will surely do so. 

SoT

SOT and weary, yes, I played along not to hijack but to maybe encourage Weary to think this through as well...
:bighug:

SoT,
I'm grateful for your response. I've been away on a work trip for 6 days and plan to respond later this week.
The time away has been a boost for my soul. I am self-employed and love what I do.
My therapist has encouraged me to continue seeking outlets for creativity and expressing my passions, as I've spent way too much time the last few years restricting myself based on my own shame at the dysfunction of my marriage relationship (thinking it's my fault and something is wrong with me).
When I'm expressing my creativity and love for healthy relationships through my work, I feel so alive and joyous.
I head home tomorrow and can feel the dread and anxiety creeping back in.
-WH

Quote from: 11JB68 on September 06, 2021, 12:11:17 PM
SOT and weary, yes, I played along not to hijack but to maybe encourage Weary to think this through as well...
:bighug:

11JB68,

I look forward to your responses here on Weary's thread.  I do this exercise often as motivation for myself and a boundary reinforcement to allow myself the freedom to be who I want to be, yet still married to a uPDw.  Even in a marriage between two mentally healthy people, each person does some give-and-take, but in general, each person should provide freedom, in love and support to become who they desire to be, and to become the best they can be.

In contrast, with these mentally unhealthy people as spouses, the above becomes twisted in a goal to serve the PD in the changing needs they have at any particular time, yet always feeding the inner constant and masked self-loathing they are trying to satisfy to keep themselves mentally afloat.  We become targets of need and the cost is ourselves, both mentally, emotionally, physically, financially and in marriage, sexually as well when withholding becomes a tool to manipulate, control and hurt. 

Being living creatures, we also have an expiration on this Earth, therefore this life as a feed-target for the PD is consuming the clock of opportunity for us non's to become who we desire to be.  Therefore, this exercise imo, when balanced with my own responsibilities of my choices in life (balanced/healthy 50% rule toward my spouse, children and responsibilities I have chosen) with the 51% rule and the full suite of the Out of the FOG toolbox to assist, helps me to strongly move forward on being me, in the face of PD onslaught to be who my PD desires me to be, for their benefit.

It is also my job in the 50% rule, in the freedom of love (desiring what is best for my spouse) and support to allow my PDw to become what she desires herself to be, but as best possible, at the reduced expense of myself in doing so.  Surely, because I'm married to a PD, I'm expending a lot of energy in protecting myself, learning and other time spent in reinforcing myself in this situation, but the 50% rule tells me I have the adult choice to leave, therefore that energy spent, is my own choice. 

So 11JB68 and Weary, I encourage you both on this thread to continue to play. 

*Remember that in my original scenario question, you are not married any longer to a PD, you have full custody of the kids and you have chosen to remain single for the rest of your life.   

When Weary returns, I hope he will play along here, for his support (his request on the thread) and read 11JB68's honest answers in support of his thread and allowing his thread to uplift and support others as well, to move strongly forward on being who we desire to be, even while being married to a PD (reminder to readers that Weary's thread is in this 'Committed to Working on It' forum section).

———-
11JB68:

Which of the desired choices you wrote in your above reply answers could you ACTUALLY begin to do right now, even while married to your uPDh?  If you find ones in the list that you believe you could not do while married to uPDh, list the reason why (with your toolbox protection actively working for you).  What reaction would you face from uPDh on the items you could do?   

SoT

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 06, 2021, 09:58:38 PM
SoT,
I'm grateful for your response. I've been away on a work trip for 6 days and plan to respond later this week.
The time away has been a boost for my soul. I am self-employed and love what I do.
My therapist has encouraged me to continue seeking outlets for creativity and expressing my passions, as I've spent way too much time the last few years restricting myself based on my own shame at the dysfunction of my marriage relationship (thinking it's my fault and something is wrong with me).
When I'm expressing my creativity and love for healthy relationships through my work, I feel so alive and joyous.
I head home tomorrow and can feel the dread and anxiety creeping back in.
-WH

Weary, glad your travel has been a boost for your soul!  I am self-employed also and like you, enjoy my employment.  We have much in common.  I understand well, the reality of arriving back home and the anticipation of the mental workload ahead. 

I hope you may find time to answer the questions here, as 11JB68 has done and allow your thread to be a support of other readers, to encourage them to strongly work on themselves, even in the midst of marriage to a PD, should they choose to stay.

Welcome home from your work journey!

SoT

Weary, this could have been written by me. I have known for 10 years that something is really off with my wife, but decided to ignore it for the first few years but then things escalated about 5 years ago and the last 3 years being unbearable. We haven't had any intimacy for years, never mind sex which has always been a control thing for her and I have stopped looking for it (she could stop in the middle of the act and just give any random excuse that I did something wrong and then not being in the mood anymore). I have like you tried to cope with all the ups and downs, but for me it has become impossible as it now affects the children in an unhealthy way. I don't want the children growing up thinking it is OK to treat people the way she does and especially how she treats me. She projects anything on to me and I can peacefully sit and drink my morning coffee when she decides to kick off and tell me and the kids that I am mean and why I ignore her. These lightening strikes are impossible to dodge, you can't defend yourself against complete fabrications and how do you explain to your kids that their mum that they look up to is lying and setting me up? It has gone so far for me that I even have started doing MC to my daughter, she is currently in severe FOG and ha been made a flying monkey by uNPDw. I can't have a decent relation to her when uNPDw is in the house as all she does is striving for validation from her mum, which she knows she easiest gets by insulting me using the exact same words as uNPDw uses.

I am like you self employed, my work travel has been my oasis. But this has been taken away from me the last year and a half because of the pandemic, I suppose this has also affected my mental health quite severe with no time for breathing. I have lately started to do some travel again, just for myself to get some space but it's not enough. I always dread the moment when it's time to board the plane back home, this should be the most exciting thing to get home to the family but no....

SoT, I will play your game - just wait for it!

Weary, good luck whatever you chose to do!

Weary and escapingman,

So you don't have to scroll back, below is the original daydreaming question. 11JB68 has already responded with answers and we are now waiting for her to answer the second part in relation to her responses.   

First question:

If you were to choose to divorce, and obtained full custody of your children, yet purposefully remain single for the rest of your life (so answers should not include dating-type activities but can include activities where both men and women participate), what would you do differently, than what do currently. 

I urge you to REALISTICALLY think about and daydream about these areas of your life (and others)

Examples are:

-Work
-Kids
-Friends
-Other Family Members
-Hobbies (current/new)
-Daily Schedule
-New Adventurous Ideas (can include a variety of things like entrepreneurship, permanently relocate to a new country/state/town or others, living in an RV, others)
-Travel (vacations)
-Your Current Home/Living Situation (move? different style? remodel?, redecorate?)
-Your Health/Body Preferences
-Your Fashion Preferences
-Others Areas not Mentioned?

In support and encouragement for Weary on his thread,

SoT

Quote from: escapingman on September 08, 2021, 03:08:55 AM. She projects anything on to me and I can peacefully sit and drink my morning coffee when she decides to kick off and tell me and the kids that I am mean and why I ignore her. These lightening strikes are impossible to dodge, you can't defend yourself against complete fabrications and how do you explain to your kids that their mum that they look up to is lying and setting me up? It has gone so far for me that I even have started doing MC to my daughter, she is currently in severe FOG and ha been made a flying monkey by uNPDw. I can't have a decent relation to her when uNPDw is in the house as all she does is striving for validation from her mum, which she knows she easiest gets by insulting me using the exact same words as uNPDw uses.

escapingman,

My opinion regarding your quoted statement above:  First, let me say I am sorry you are continually dealing with this.  Second, i agree that flying monkees and triangulation can surely occur in our relationships with PD's and its especially difficult with children.  Although, children are very perceptive of the TRUTH, and their prolonged experiences with others teach them what is true or false, letting them decipher for themselves what was said vs their experiences. 

You wrote: 

"These lightening strikes are impossible to dodge, you can't defend yourself against complete fabrications and how do you explain to your kids that their mum that they look up to is lying and setting me up? ". 

Yes, they are impossible to dodge, but not impossible to noJADE and MC regarding.  Imo, if your children are with their mother frequently, they are well aware of the truth regarding her behaviors on a consistent basis=truth.  Likewise, the same also for you...

Imo, there is no reason to explain your wife's behavior to your children and can backfire in a big way. Imo it is also JADEing through your children.  Again, the best way for your children to determine the TRUTH for themselves, is through their own experiences.  Are you boldly available to spend more time one-on-one with each child, away from the home?   If so, i want to encourage you (and Weary since this is his thread) to look at that prior daydreaming topic and consider being more proactive with each child separately, away from the home on something that is 100% catered to their tastes and enjoyment.  If one child likes to camp, have a dad & child camping trip; if another child enjoys museums, go there!   Do this on a continuous basis and imo, never discuss anything negative about your wife, do not try and bolster your own reputation with your children and do not use gifts to gain favor.  But rather, let the continuous TRUTH that dad is very proactive, a man of truthful and open communication (not a liar), enjoyable, flexible, optimistic, funny, patient, kind and so on... be their experience. 

If your wife opposes you doing this, politely tell her that you are sorry she feels that way and that since you believe one-on-one time with each child is healthy for each parent/child relationship,  that you will fully support her doing the same with each child, making the time to stay home with the other kid(s) while she is away having mom-and-child time!  That is not a JADEing respinse.  When you (or your wife) are away with a child, not only is the child soaking up the truth about dad or mom through experience, but the one(s) at home are also soaking up the truth about the other parent. 

I say all this from experience and now that my kids are adults, they have expressed to me that many of the negative things they were told about me, were not true, and in fact the truth was actually hypocrisy, as it was my my uPDw that actually was doing the actions/reactions she projected onto me.  I remind you that your fatherly goals for your children are long-term, and its continuous TRUTH that molds long-term understanding. 

SoT

SoT: Your advice is spot on, thank you so much. I am using the entire toolbox at the moment, its hard but I manage. My uNPDw has brainwashed GC so much at the moment so GC is shouting at me, telling me she hates me and so on. I really don't think she hates me, but she says it to please uNPDw. For now I need to just ignore it and move away. I had a weekend away with my SG child last week and it was amazing, we did everything uNPDw would kick off about - we even bought a McDonalds and ate in bed at the hotel room! I had a weekend away with GC 2 years ago and it was great, we went to a football game, museum and strolled around town. But now, I can't do anything with GC as she refuse to do anything unless uNPDw is included. GC has been completely brainwashed and I cannot see any way to sort that other than splitting up with her mum and spend time with her without her being concerned about her mum.

I also spent a lot of time thinking of your game SoT, and I am sorry to say I don't have a very exciting answere.

I want my life post uNPDw to be like this:

- Peace and quite.
- Calmness
- If I sneeze to not be shouted at
- To have a lay in to 10AM on a saturday morning without being called lazy
- Watch a movie at night without it being turned off mid way cause uNPDw decides she doesn't like it
- Open the house up for friends and family to visit whenever they want
- Have the kids friends over whenever they want
- Have Pizza parties with the kids and their friends
-  Being able to watch TV in the evening without having to watch "her" programs
- Go to the shops and buy something and not be told off for it
- Being able to go to the garden centre and buy a plant/bush/tree
- Work would be pretty much the same, I like my work and maybe just being able to work more odd hours as I am self employeed.

I think I could go on and on and on but the main point is I want a more relaxed life with noone judging me or the kids for whatever reason.

The things I want to do differently:

Have a clean house that I feel comfortable in and can relax in. And that I'm not ashamed to have visitors to. (Difficulty is cleaning up after severe slob while I have limited energy and limited eyesight)

Exercise. (Difficulty is can't walk comfortably without driving to another spot, which I can't do. Can do other things like pushups but really benefit from the energy of frequent walks to get to the next level of pushups and such. Also, do not want to be caught exercising and have critical comments though I now understand they are about his insecurity).

Eat better. (Absolutely nothing to do with H at all. I have to make stuff DD will like and I would just do it differently if it were just me.)

With a clean house and not having to worry about nasty comments, improve relationships with some people and have them over more.

Further to clean house, also declutter, which is hard because I can't remove the items (drive trash to dump or drive donations to Goodwill). This will be improved next year when DD drives.

Would like to complete necessary home repairs. (Have limited mental energy plus am ashamed of contractors seeing my home).

Hire lawn maintenance. Can't afford it but may have no choice.

Work on something. A project, a paper, try to answer a big question. Help someone with something. Am limited by energy, motivation, and blindness.

SoT,
I am back home after a wonderful and fulfilling work trip.

I have taken time to reflect on your thought experiment. Ready to play along. It was challenging to do this thought experiment without daydreaming about other possible romantic relationship opportunities, but I stayed within the parameters you laid out.

Here are my answers. I welcome your input, even if it's painful:

Work - I would throw myself into meaningful work that I enjoy more fully and with more confidence. I would take more risks in both investments and in my entrepreneurial interests.

Kids - I would take them on more adventure trips with me into the wilderness, especially my youngest two. I would also take them on more work trips. My line of work gives me numerous opportunities to include my kids. I would set up their school arrangements to allow for these trips with me.

Friends - I would enjoy more social times with friends in my home and out (we almost never have social times with friends together currently, either in our home or out). My uPDw is not currently comfortable with people coming into our home.

Other Family Members - I would see my extended family more often and enjoy times with them and my children, both in our current hometown and other cities. We've been largely cut off from my family at my uPDw's insistence. I would invite my family to spend more time with me and my kids here, and to help us with our schedule, as they've indicated a desire to do so for many years.

Hobbies - Nothing different, though I would experience more freedom to pursue hobbies without a fear of reprisals from my uPDw. Through therapy and Codependency recovery, I'm learning to ignore these fears and pursue what I like without seeking her approval.

Daily Schedule - My daily schedule would be altered with the full responsibility of my children. My uPDw currently takes on a lot of responsibility (her choice) for our kids' schooling. (She's homeschooled them most of their lives. Our first child just left for college.)

New Adventurous Ideas - more outdoor adventures, more cross-cultural adventures with my kids (my line of work gives me numerous cross cultural opportunities). I would also seek out more healing opportunities at spiritual discovery seminars.

Travels - Some listed above. I would consider moving with my two youngest kids overseas for an extended season, where I have work opportunities. After my two youngest leave the house (in five years), I would consider purchasing an RV or some kind of travel trailer to allow me to travel around the country for work/adventures.

Your House - I would enjoy alcohol moderately in our home (currently restricted by uPDw. Though I'm not an alcoholic and have not been abusive or excessive with alcohol, she threatens to leave with the kids if I have even one beer/wine in the house. It's a long story to explain why and it wouldn't make rational sense anyway. It's been a major point of contention). I would purchase a small, but sufficient, home to accommodate my children and I that would also be a base to travel from in future years.

Your Health/Body - My health is good. Exercise has been a lifeline of sanity for me and I don't think this would change much. I would probably seek out more opportunities to connect socially with others around my exercise, though. I regularly do fairly extreme hikes/runs in the wilderness and would probably seek out more friendships with others who share the same interests as I currently do these solo.

Weary's Fashion Preferences - Same

Others Areas? I would seek out continued therapy for my own recovery from Codependency/Caretaking as a single man. I would seek out therapy to understand what in my upbringing prepped me to choose a PD for a spouse and why I continued to endure abusive behavior for so, so long, with increasing harmful effects on me emotionally, mentally, and physically. I'm currently doing this, but I would continue.

escapingman,

Thanks for your reply.  Since in my daydreaming example, your uPDw is not around, then im going to re-write them to eliminate her PD actions and reactions.   Doing that editing, the list could be:

- Make proactive time to appreciate peace, quietness and calmness.
- Lay in bed to 10AM on Saturday mornings.
- Watch my favorite movies or TV programs in the evenings. 
- Increased visits with my friends and family when they are available to gather with me and the kids. 
- Have my kid's friends over to our place more often than before and have pizza parties.
- Go to the shops and/or garden centre's and enjoy shopping and my outdoor projects. 
- Work at the selected hours i desire. 

Most of what i removed are reactions and/or actions of your PDw, not real restrictions, at this time,  on your capability to actually do the list. 

SoT

Weary, thanks for playing along as well!  Since you took the time to answer in full to the suggested topics (and this is your thread) I want to read and reply carefully, and in full.  What I desire to do in this, is to encourage my Out of the FOG comrades to daydream, brainstorm and look at their answers to find creative ways to steadily work on these goals right now, regardless of marital status and using the toolbox fully, versus putting them off, so that you AND your children can begin to enjoy the benefits.  They will be very busy at a later age and their growing-up clocks tick steady onward, regardless of any chosen delays in our adult personal desires... i know this well now, and wish i knew sooner. 

Because of the 50% rule, there are some things that may have to wait or can be creatively 50% accomplished in fairness while in a marriage, since each party in the marriage has equal legal adult rights and ethical rights to have fair input regarding their own (non-manipulative) desires, such as your desire for more risk-taking with investment finances and some larger marital purchases, such as an RV.

I will respond fully with opinions and questions to your above answers in the next 24 hours.   Thanks again for taking the time to entertain the daydreaming idea.   

Keep in mind this question to yourself, regarding each daydream idea you mentioned:

"If I proactively move forward now, in a 50% fair manner within my marriage, to make these daydream goal-ideas a reality for myself and our children, without restricting my spouse's daydream goal-ideas for herself/our children, what is the most extreme (be realistic to your situation) reaction/action I may face from my uPDspouse, that is out of my Out of the FOG toolbox capable self-control to protect myself?" 

Your spouse leaving the marriage?   (Which then allows the goals to steadily happen anyway).

SoT

Hello Weary,

I have taken your daydream responses and (like I did with escapingman's responses) altered the responses to exclude most PD attributes regarding.  Below is a suggested rewording of your responses for your consideration in starting your daydreams right now, while married to your PDw, and using the complete toolbox in a powerful protective way for yourself and your children.   Since this is your thread, I also made an opposite balanced list (my next post) for your wife , for how you may desire to consider your wife's adult-rights for herself. 

Some of your original daydreams may conflict with your wife's rights as an adult with children.  Where I believed this may occur,  I removed them from your list and added into her list (next post below) for your consideration of her adult choices.   

1. Below is the suggested re-written list for Weary's daydreams.

2. My next post will be a suggested Weary's-wife's choices for herself, while Weary achieves his own adult-rights goals for himself and his children.

3. Question I would like you to answer on this thread:   Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting this list below?   Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.  Sure, being married to a PD will make this list an emotional obstacle course (vs being married to a nonPD) but that is Weary's choice, since you currently are still married (50% rule applies to both you and your wife).  *Note I also used '51/49' in areas of my writing, because of the 51% rule, that is a reality for both you AND your wife.

4. Same question as yesterday:  If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list below (which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction you could realistically face from your PDw.  Divorce?  If so, that is HER adult choice to do so and to your advantage in potential custody and alimony considerations, as none of Wearys daydream choices are unfair, hurtful or manipulative/controlling of your PDw.  Also, if your wife chooses divorce, you will be possibly able, when the final divorce dust settles, to begin steadily working in the daydreams that you excluded in fairness to your spouse, in a legal marriage. 

SoT
————

Weary's Desires for Himself.

Work - I will throw myself into meaningful work that I enjoy more fully and with more confidence.

Kids - I will take them (multiple child or one child) on more adventure trips with me (solo) into the wilderness, especially my youngest two. I will also take them on more work trips. My line of work gives me numerous opportunities to include my kids.

Friends - I will enjoy more social times with my guy friends, outside of my home.

Other Family Members - I will see my extended family more often and enjoy times with them and include my children on more visits with family.  I will not pressure my wife to come with me, but I desire to take all the kids with me in my visits, and she can stay home if she chooses that for herself.   

Hobbies- Nothing new at the moment, but
potentially actively pursue new hobbies. 

Daily Schedule - Nothing drastic at the moment.  But, since regular exercise has been something I greatly enjoy and makes me feel mentally healthy, I will continue exercising daily at times that suit my work and my dad-time schedule in a balanced way.  I will seek out more opportunities to connect socially, through my exercise interests and hobbies, with other men, in whose company I may enjoy. I want to promote including my children in some one-on-one exercise opportunities to do together, since it's more dad/child time and exercise is also to their benefit. 

New Adventurous Ideas - I will schedule more outdoor adventures, more cross-cultural adventures with my kids (dad/kid time) in a 51/49  free-time manner and make the effort to be helpful to my wife in her possible outside-the-home adventurous ideas of her own on her 51/49 free time, regardless of whether she is supportive of me.  If she chooses not to participate in her own adventures, I will still pursue my own. 

Since my wife currently doesn't enjoy the same activities as I do, she can schedule her own adventure activities (either solo, with her friends, or with the kids) on her 51% of her available free time. If she chooses to spend her 51% free time with her friends or solo, I will use those opportunities for my adventurous time with the kids. 

I will  attend additional spiritual discovery seminars in my 51/49 available time. 

Travels - Currently as a married man, I know these ideas below would disrupt the daydreams my wife has for herself and her children.  But, in daydreaming about myself solo; I would consider moving with my two youngest kids overseas for an extended season, where I have work opportunities. After my two youngest leave the house (in five years), I would consider purchasing an RV or some kind of travel trailer to allow me to travel around the country for work/adventures.

My House - I will enjoy alcohol moderately in my home, and will teach my children that self-control and balance in all things, including alcohol, is good self-management.  I also don't desire to make alcohol 'taboo' in our home, because it possibly encourages my kids to adventurously explore the 'off-limits/taboo' alcohol outside the home, to learn about what was SO forbidden. In their immature state as non-adults, alcohol exploration can be harmful. 

Because of the potential alcohol laws in my country, I will not permit my children to break laws and consume alcohol in my home/family rules while they are living on my dollar/under my roof.  But when each one turns of legal drinking age, I may choose to include them, if they desire in their own adult choices for alcohol enjoyment, as a way to socially connect with my adult children, and appreciate the artful craft of beer, wine and spirits in a self-controlled manner. 

Fashion Preferences - Same.  If I want to explore different styles I will enjoy doing so.  If I want to grow a beard or mustache, or shave off my current one(s), I will do so.  I will style myself any way I desire. 

Others Areas- I will, as a man married to a PDw, seek out private, continued therapy for my own recovery from Codependency/Caretaking.

*NOTE*. Weary, the following part, I twisted to look at it from the opposite direction, which in my opinion, is more beneficial to you in your therapy and understanding. Surely understanding why PD's do what they do is beneficial, but PD's always need a target, so altering what makes you a natural target, is most beneficial, as it cuts off the 'caretaking' attributes that feed the PD traits. 

Other Areas- I will privately seek out therapy to understand what in my upbringing prepped me to be a natural 'caretaker' that attracted a PD spouse,  and why I continued to endure abusive behavior for so, so long, with increasing harmful effects on me emotionally, mentally, and physically. I will understand that PD's seek out natural 'caretakers' and love-bomb them prior to marriage and realize that sometimes PD's will use having children with a caretaker, to lock-in and use, control and manipulate the caretaker for their own long term benefit, while the PD enjoys the children in this manipulated environment. 

Weary, see your list in the previous post.   Below is a 'Weary's Wife's' list of rights/choices because of each of you (you and your wife's) current 50% rule choices to remain married. 

*Note the italics for your awareness of potential proactive PD traits of manipulation/control.   

*Note that this list is fairly short, meaning not many alterations to your list (in the previous post) needed to be made to protect your wife's legal adult-rights choices for herself, her share of finances, her time, her extended family and her children.  Weary thats a GREAT thing for you, that SO MANY items on your list are in your legal adult-rights wheelhouse to begin immediately. 

SoT
——————

Weary's Wife's Rights/Choices (taken from Weary's daydream answers).

Work- My wife is not comfortable taking financial risks with the money that she earns in her employment, or depending on how I perceive monies; in her legal half of our marital money.

Our Kids- My wife benefits from, and enjoys the current homeschool schedule and flexibility for her kids, in which she has chosen to educate.

Friends- My uPDw is not currently comfortable with people coming into her home.

NOTE *Weary, this is the PD trait of isolation of the target and is done purposefully to control the target(s) and better shield the PD from others outside the home. 

Other Family Members- My wife does not desire to be around extended family. 

NOTE * "We've been largely cut off from my family at my uPDw's insistence:"  Weary, this is additionally, the PD trait of isolation of the target and is done purposefully to control the target(s) and better shield the PD from others outside the home. 

Our Home- My wife does not desire for herself to participate in moderate alcohol consumption and she does not share my appreciation of the tastes and crafts of beer, wine and spirits.  I agree with her on enforcing our home/home country laws on underage drinking with regard to our children. 

SoT,
Sheesh. So much wisdom in your response. Your response was so helpful and a boost to my soul. Reading your responses are like lifting my head out of a fog of confusion and seeing clearly for the first time in a long time. I have been SO confused over what my rights are, what freedom of choice I have, what boundaries I can set, and being confused over what is just me "being selfish" when I make a choice for myself that my wife doesn't like or becomes moody about. This last year, as I started to set boundaries to protect myself and increasingly made choices that I wanted for myself, I often immediately swung into feeling guilty, like setting boundaries or making choices about my own life is hurting my uPDw. But I'm learning to stay firm with my boundaries, regardless of her response, and I'm slowly becoming stronger. I've spent so much energy as a recovering co-dependent/caretaker altering my behavior to manage her moods, or avoid her anger, thinking I was being loving and kind, "laying down my life for my wife", etc. Meanwhile my sense of self, my self-esteem, and freedom to live responsibly as I choose as an adult gradually and increasingly eroded.

It's been a lengthy process. As I said before, "two steps forward, one step back." Today, I'll take two steps forward. I commit not to step back, but to be gracious with myself if/when I do.

Grateful for you SoT,
-WH

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 09, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
SoT,
Sheesh. So much wisdom in your response. Your response was so helpful and a boost to my soul. Reading your responses are like lifting my head out of a fog of confusion and seeing clearly for the first time in a long time. I have been SO confused over what my rights are, what freedom of choice I have, what boundaries I can set, and being confused over what is just me "being selfish" when I make a choice for myself that my wife doesn't like or becomes moody about. This last year, as I started to set boundaries to protect myself and increasingly made choices that I wanted for myself, I often immediately swung into feeling guilty, like setting boundaries or making choices about my own life is hurting my uPDw. But I'm learning to stay firm with my boundaries, regardless of her response, and I'm slowly becoming stronger. I've spent so much energy as a recovering co-dependent/caretaker altering my behavior to manage her moods, or avoid her anger, thinking I was being loving and kind, "laying down my life for my wife", etc. Meanwhile my sense of self, my self-esteem, and freedom to live responsibly as I choose as an adult gradually and increasingly eroded.

It's been a lengthy process. As I said before, "two steps forward, one step back." Today, I'll take two steps forward. I commit not to step back, but to be gracious with myself if/when I do.

Grateful for you SoT,
-WH

Hello again Weary,

Im so joyed to hear you are boldly and immediately, going to take 2 steps forward at all times.  As I said though, the reality of being married to a PD spouse is the PD traits obstacle course that we emotionally have to deal with, in which other people, not in PD relationships, just cant understand.  Therefore in your 2-steps-forward goals, realize the emotional, physical, financial, sexual manipulation will be an ongoing path of briars in your path to self improvement, that you will need to constantly overcome by the toolbox, in order to continue down the trail and not circle back on the IDD hamster wheel. 

Also, please be well aware that correctly setting proper boundaries, exercising the toolbox in full, and moving forward on your daydream goals starting today (allowing both you and your wife to exercise your adult rights, while protecting yourself from her trying to control yours using PD actions/reactions) may greatly increase the intensity of your wife's tactics to reset you in the cycle.  She may believe (correctly so!! 😀) that she is losing control of Weary in his bold new self. 

*Side Note*: The answer is "yes, you are correct" that Weary IS changing from the 'man she married' when she accuses you 😂.  Because Weary has been doing a lot of self-contemplation and analyzation lately, he is working on improving himself in ways that Weary believes are proper, and will support as best possible, his wife doing the same thing with herself. 

*Side Note*. Remember to always 'hold your cards close' (a poker term) to not reveal your self-improvement plans, as revealed plans to a PD  is a road map for their manipulative planning.

I recommend you keep the IDD cycle fresh in your mind and recognize the stage(s) you are always currently residing.  The two D's of Devaluation and Discard may occur simultaneously as she both tries to emotionally tear you down, while at the same time using discarding traits (you experience now).  All of which are trying to reset Weary back into HER comfort zone with you being the caretaker she married.  When she gets increasingly more uncomfortable and her internal-self starts a bit of collapse, allow her to experience and deal with herself in a fully adult manner, and protect yourself throughout with the toolbox, while being available to her for acts for kindness (a hold/a hug/a neutral MC ear) in her mental collapse.  Possibly imagine how you would lovingly deal with a coworker or friend in a emotional collapse moment and deal with your PDw the same neutral way.  You DID NOT cause it. 

The ultimate discard is emotional affairs, physical affairs, divorce and most extreme...self-harm and/or threats of suicide.  I know this sounds extreme, but can be a very effective PD shock-tool to try and reset the caretaker (many over my time here have experienced these contemplations/ threats, including myself).  If she were to mention/threaten self-harm/suicidal thoughts, the proper and loving response by you is: "when i hear thoughts of or threats of self-harm/suicide, i will immediately call the notify the police, so a highly trained specialist can deal with my wife, since i am not qualified".  I surely don't like to discuss this with others on the forum, but know its a real possibility and a desperate attempt to reset the caretaker back to the start of the cycle, as the PD faces the non's proper boundaries, that the PD cannot overcome any longer. 

Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote.  Again, here they are: 

1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list?   *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward. 

2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?

SoT

Wow, such an interesting thread and wonderful responses.

To Weary, I've been there.  more than 30 years to my xOCPDh.  Your wife uses guilt and mine did as well to control me.  The words differ but guilt is what kept me in the marriage for decades.  I know from my childhood and abuse that guilt built the fog around me and I moved through from one controlling environment to another.  It was only with a doctor's diagnosis of PTSD, EMDR therapy and lots of support here that I was able to finally take that last step Out of the FOG and divorce my ex.

I wasn't able to stay in the marriage - my health teetered and I had to leave to live.  Daily seizures and bouts of aphasia - cancer, and so much more.  But now that I have been out for the past two years and finally beginning to put it behind me - life has been better.  Tough but better.

If I can play along with SOT - I am a little bit along in my daydreaming - Kids are out of the house and on their own (I am empty nesting two weeks now) and there are no plans for romance in the future (just don't want to go there)

Work - Continue to write and create as the inspiration flows
Kids - Guide and support them emotionally on their adult journeys
Other family - Take and have taken opportunities to reconnect with my family (vacationed with my sister and brother that I haven't seen in 10 years due to my ex's dislike of them)
Hobbies - I have already started and dropped several to my own joy and realization that some things I just don't like even though they look pretty in the window - but others provide real joy
Daily Schedule - Wake up when I am ready/sleep when I am sleepy/Eat when I am hungry. LOVE THIS
New Adventures - Beginning in a few weeks my first big adventure by living in a campervan and touring the national parks/seashore - I love nature and camping and have worked diligently to create a system that accommodates my handicap
Current Home - I was going to leave the duplex but have decided to keep it for a little longer - in case the pandemic turns worse and provide my youngest freshman college son a place to land on holidays.  The travel mentioned above will also help me decide where and what I want to do next - very mixed and confused feelings there that I need to sort
Health/Body Preferences - Finally exercising gently without shame and pushing myself gently  - I am also talking to myself in the mirror daily and sending myself the love my younger self craved - also finally able to create healthier food choices and have lost 25 pounds
Fashion - finally gave in to the fun prints I love without shame/grew my hair out/created a minimalistic approach to my fashion that I now am fully embracing
Other areas - Control over all my finances/Organized my life into manageable time and storage areas/Daily clean my house Houzah!/Become political and volunteer without shame/Meditate Daily and take moments to breathe in the calm/Enjoy the not having to check-in and schedule my life as I see fit

Yes, there are asides to life without him - but I put them there to indicate how far I have come in such a short time.  My emotions are steadier.  I see life very clearly now and my memory issues are gone.  Life inside the fog felt off and disconnected from my true self.  I finally feel as if I have the opportunity to shift to my true self. 

ASIDE:  I am not advocating divorce and you have posted in committed.  I am only offering my reason for leaving.  I did try for a long time to make it work.  In many people's eyes, 32 years of marriage would be successful.  I count it as such.  Much peace to you weary

JustKeepTrying,

Congratulations on the bold moves you know were/are necessary in your life. It was a joy to read your daydreaming goals and so I reply as a cheerleader to encourage you and my Out of the FOG comrades forward!  Cheers to you as you make them a reality!

SoT

SoT,
Here's what happened as I implemented this plan.
Tonight we celebrated my birthday from last week with a Friday night grill out in our backyard.
I cooked steaks and salmon on the grill.
I told my wife previously that I wanted to have a beer with my birthday meal and she said, "OK."
I went and got a six pack of beer earlier today and put it in the refrigerator.
I told her about it, and told her gently and calmly that I plan to enjoy alcohol moderately in the house from now on.
I had one beer with dinner.
After dinner, she said, "I am not safe! This is my house! I don't want alcohol in our house! You are choosing to make me not safe! You are choosing alcohol over me!"
I gently affirmed her that she is safe and has nothing to fear. I gently but firmly asserted that I enjoy the craft of beer and will model responsible and moderate drinking in front of our children.
I affirmed that she does not desire to drink alcohol moderately, she is welcome to leave, that this is my house also, and this is what I am going to do. I told her I don't want to raise my children in a home where alcohol is taboo, as I believe it could lead to dangerous paths in their lives down the road.
She said, "What if I just took those beers then?"
I said, "Well, I can't control what you do, but that would be stealing."
She went to the refrigerator and took the rest of the six pack (the five other beers).
She left the house with them.
????
Ok, I've asserted my boundaries and rights. I think I did the right thing. I feel good. I'm done with the arguing.
But what the heck????
-WH

SoT,
In case my last post was confusing - on my birthday, we agreed we would have a celebration dinner after I returned from a work trip, thus the events of last night.

In response to your other suggestion:

"Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote....
1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list?   *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.
2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?"

Here are my responses:
1) What is preventing me from proactively and immediately starting my daydream list? FEAR. The only thing preventing me is using my uPDw as the excuse for not moving forward. I have lived in fear for so, so long. Fear of how my uPDw will respond. Fear that I'm making the wrong decision. Fear that somehow all are problems are actually my fault and I haven't done enough to change or please her or provide a safe enough environment for her healing. Fear that I'm one of those selfish a-hole people who destroy marriages. Even after the events of last night, I've wrestled with moments of panic today, thinking, "What did I just do? Isn't it incredibly selfish of me to behave in ways that cause fear in my uPDw? Is something wrong with me?" I know it's sick, but the thoughts come. But I will no longer let fear control me. I am developing a more clear picture of reality. I am becoming courageous. I have a life to live. I am a good husband and father and friend. I'm human and have lots of areas to continue growing, but I am worthy of love and my life is worth living without fear. If my kids were in a similar situation, I wouldn't want them to remain in the FOG for as long as I have, in the name of a twisted sense of love, duty, and loyalty. The perverse thinking of Caretaking. I WILL immediately start implementing my daydream list.

2) After making the bold decision to activate my entire list, the most extreme action/reaction I could realistically face from my wife (that I can think of) are these:
That she would move out. That she would file for divorce. That she would go into an extreme panic and begin berating me. That she might take our three youngest kids and find a hotel somewhere. That she would twist things to add fuel to her narrative of how I am abusive.

Hi Weary,

First, Let me congratulate you on your well planned and strong boundary choices to enjoy a beer for your birthday!  The salmon and steaks sound magnificent.  What kind of beer did you choose for the food pairing?

Although there may have tension present, I hope you fully enjoyed the inaugural birthday brew.  In addition, i hope you saved the bottle as a silent visual reminder (kept somewhere safe from the trash...) of the secret and strong toolbox occasion.  In a way, this was not just the celebration of your birthday, but possibly a celebration of the birth of the new Weary:

"Ive asserted my boundaries and rights. I think I did the right thing. I feel good. I'm done with the arguing."
-Weary

I fully agree with your most of your actions and reactions, and the way you wrote it, I will assume your reactions were stated in a neutral medium-chill way, contrasted to her high emotions.

Her responses to your actions and statements, are classic PD trait responses.  I enjoy taking time to analyze what occurred and also what did NOT occur.  I believe that this type of analysis is healthy for me after these types of moments and also healthy for me to journal the analysis. 

You wrote:

"After dinner, she said, "I am not safe! This is my house! I don't want alcohol in our house! You are choosing to make me not safe! You are choosing alcohol over me!"

The first three statements are the PD traits of very 'black and white' thinking; very 'all or nothing' and are all about her, not you, which is a classic style response for a PD.  They are her opinions and she has full rights to feel that way.

Your response of "I gently affirmed her that she is safe and has nothing to fear" is your own opinion, which counters hers.  Imo, next time you should consider allowing her to have her own opinions without you responding to statements (they were not questions).  You may also appreciate her allowing the same for you, but good luck with that. 😂  Either way, treating others how I desire to be treated is my desire for myself. 

The last two are not questions either, but are about you and therefore accusation-bait.  If i chose to respond to that from my uPDw, it would be something very short and neutral that conveys "im sorry you feel that way".

You wrote:

"I gently but firmly asserted that I enjoy the craft of beer and will model responsible and moderate drinking in front of our children.I affirmed that she does not desire to drink alcohol moderately, she is welcome to leave, that this is my house also, and this is what I am going to do. I told her I don't want to raise my children in a home where alcohol is taboo, as I believe it could lead to dangerous paths in their lives down the road."   

I love this response!  They are your choices for yourself, and your opinion and choice regarding alcohol/taboo/kids and your choice for your 50% rights in raising your kids and 50% of your home (which may be not an opinion, but a legal fact regarding the house). 

Her desperate response of 'taking the beer' is so classic PD.  Haha i have experienced this type of control action so much from both my father and wife, and believe its a last resort type of baiting-threat and i loved your response.  I want to point out what she did NOT do. 

She did not respond to your 1. Concern for the children's long-term well-being regarding full understanding and balanced enjoyment of alcohol.  2. The fact that you have 50% rights to decisions regarding your children and the legal right to half your home....and therefore 1/2 of the shared possessions, including the fridge.

Here are some other facts to consider as a next move.

-If joint funds were used to buy a 6-pack then technically she had rights to three beers and if she would have asked you for her three, the answer should be a quick yes.
They are hers to do whatever she desires.

-Weary drank one of his three, so he still has two left and she took them.

-Half of the fridge is Weary's. 

If I were in your situation, my only next response action/reaction to her taking the beer is:

-I would quietly go buy another 6 pack and in permanent marker, write your name on 5 of the labels and her name only on 1 label. 

-After quietly putting them in the fridge, i would calmly, in a business-like tone, tell her that she was surely entitled to 3 of the first 6 beers and now 3 of the second six, currently in the fridge.  But...since she took your 2 from the first 6 pack and not returned them yet, you have simply allocated 1 beer of the second 6 pack to her and it has her name on the label.  Therefore she does not need to return your remaining two. 😉.  The controlling wind from her beer-taking 'sails' just died off to nothing because you are indifferent to her action/reaction, yet still being calmly fair to her rights. 

-I would MC/noJADE any response from her regarding your new 6 pack.

-I would not address any of the events from the birthday, but quietly move along. 

If she repeats the action/reaction from that evening and discards your next beers, i have a next step in the plan, but will wait on that opinion, since you may choose to do something entirely different. 

Imo, this is MUCH more than about alcohol, but addresses facts about adult rights of each of you, and her attempts at control and baiting you into circular drama.  So this simple exercise using a 6 pack of beer, makes a very calm, unmoving, boundary-protected, quiet statement from Weary. 

I look forward to reading about your next steps in the long term, forward progress plans for yourself.  Enjoy your beer! 

SoT

Thanks for your thoughtful response, SoT. I will post anything that happens next.
And yes, I stayed entirely calm in the exchanges last night, MChill and noJADE.
I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her.
Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos. Wow, it's astounding how much this motivation comes up in my journey Out of the FOG.
Also, I am considering your analysis about how I responded to her response that she is not safe by contradicting her and telling her that she was, indeed, safe.
Grateful,
WH

" and are all about her, not you, which is a classic style response for a PD"

This just stood out to me because "it's all about you" is a frequent refrain from my H when responding to non-loaded "I" statements from me.

I can't exactly speak for him. A conversation is two people speaking for themselves and trying to findcommon ground. But I can't speak for him, he must speak for himself. (And he doesn't exactly attempt to speak for me, unless it's to belittle me somehow).

While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground.

square,

You said,

"While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground."

Yes, good observation about it not being unfair for my wife to share what distresses her. Thank you.

What is so confusing to me is living for so long trying to figure out what actions/words/situations are going to trigger my uPDw's distress or fear, then altering my behavior accordingly. Cancelling plans with people. Asking out of contracts we discussed for days and agreed to, then she when she feels fear about it at the last minute, I go and try to find a way out. She feels fear around having sex, so we go months without touching affectionately.

She is afraid of me, so in her mind I am abusive (though she has no rational explanation for this and is not willing to talk to a third party about it.)

My life and dignity increasingly was being eroded to the level of whatever fear that emerged in her. Dang, I love her so much, but I'm unpacking in this season what is actual love and what is just a bond formed around chaos, where I have degraded myself to the point of emasculation with someone who controls through her moods (and until recently I have responded back as a Codependent/Caretaker by trying to manipulate her moods, apologize repeatedly, try to say things just the right way, obsess with finding what's wrong with me, etc.  - no longer). I've responded with placating and acquiescence in order to maintain relationship - then experienced repeated verbal attacks when any attempt is made for rational discussion about compromise together in a marriage relationship.

It's like her fear is a trump card - if she feels fear about anything, it gives her a trump card to stop me, and I've let it happen for so long, thinking that was the way to have a healthy relationship. In normal non-PD relationships, I think that's right. In PD relationships, it's a recipe for craziness and an unsustainable life. I've lived in extraordinary confusion, feeling helpless and powerless. Over the last several years, up until eight months ago when I moved out of our bedroom to protect myself, started setting boundaries, found a good therapist who understands PD's/Caretaking behavior, joined CODA and found Out of the FOG, I was in a very dark place. Now, I have increasing frequency of hope, joy, sanity. I am living more frequently ( though I still have rough days) with the belief that regardless of what my wife chooses, I'm going to live by my values and implement healthy boundaries and choices for myself.

One step at a time. I'll keep moving forward.

WH

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 11, 2021, 02:42:02 PM
SoT,
In case my last post was confusing - on my birthday, we agreed we would have a celebration dinner after I returned from a work trip, thus the events of last night.

In response to your other suggestion:

"Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote....
1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list?   *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.
2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?"

Here are my responses:
1) What is preventing me from proactively and immediately starting my daydream list? FEAR. The only thing preventing me is using my uPDw as the excuse for not moving forward. I have lived in fear for so, so long. Fear of how my uPDw will respond. Fear that I'm making the wrong decision. Fear that somehow all are problems are actually my fault and I haven't done enough to change or please her or provide a safe enough environment for her healing. Fear that I'm one of those selfish a-hole people who destroy marriages. Even after the events of last night, I've wrestled with moments of panic today, thinking, "What did I just do? Isn't it incredibly selfish of me to behave in ways that cause fear in my uPDw? Is something wrong with me?" I know it's sick, but the thoughts come. But I will no longer let fear control me. I am developing a more clear picture of reality. I am becoming courageous. I have a life to live. I am a good husband and father and friend. I'm human and have lots of areas to continue growing, but I am worthy of love and my life is worth living without fear. If my kids were in a similar situation, I wouldn't want them to remain in the FOG for as long as I have, in the name of a twisted sense of love, duty, and loyalty. The perverse thinking of Caretaking. I WILL immediately start implementing my daydream list.

2) After making the bold decision to activate my entire list, the most extreme action/reaction I could realistically face from my wife (that I can think of) are these:
That she would move out. That she would file for divorce. That she would go into an extreme panic and begin berating me. That she might take our three youngest kids and find a hotel somewhere. That she would twist things to add fuel to her narrative of how I am abusive.

Weary,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions.  I did this for myself and had found that my biggest fears, were dealing with the same turmoil that i may actually have to activate myself for my own ultimate emotional protection.

Therefore, if i am willing to to activate the scenario myself, why am i afraid that my self-protective actions within the context of marriage, would cause her to activate the very same scenario.  It was an a-ha moment for me a few years back, that highly motivated me to immediately start living and accomplishing (as best/as many possible) my daydream goals. 

Again, thanks for answering. 

SoT

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful response, SoT. I will post anything that happens next.
And yes, I stayed entirely calm in the exchanges last night, MChill and noJADE.
I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her.
Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos. Wow, it's astounding how much this motivation comes up in my journey Out of the FOG.
Also, I am considering your analysis about how I responded to her response that she is not safe by contradicting her and telling her that she was, indeed, safe.
Grateful,
WH

Weary, you wrote " I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her. Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos."

Looking back at my suggestion, i can see where the next 6 pack may seem like a game and it may push right up against that fine line of protective boundary vs passive-aggressive punishment.   At the same time though, her removal of the beer and your adult right to have beer in the fridge and consume in a enjoyment of the craft, in a balanced way, should not be the end result imo. 

Therefore, in my home, the next 6 pack would be promptly back in the fridge and since im a bit OCD with my possessions, the label writing would fit well with my style haha.  I also enjoy a bit of pushing up against that line and i probably should not, but i want to be truthful here. Im so tired of decades of this BS and my pushing up against lines, just sometimes feels good.

Again, writing names on the labels may be over the top (for you), but i truly believe, for myself in your story, i would explain the next 6 pack and the math of my thinking (5 of 6 of the new beers are my possession) to:

1. express to her that i will honor her rights for herself, her half of joint monies and her desire regarding her choices for herself on alcohol.

2. reverse her wrongful 'taking' and make a truthful point that i will also honor my own rights to house, kids, fridge space and alcohol choices for myself, without encroaching on her rights for herself.

"Hurting her and causing her pain":  imo that is her right to feel hurt and pain by you simply reversing what she wrongly did.  Putting 6 beers in a refrigerator (yes thats all this is) is not something that causes hurt and pain and is in itself, not chaotic. But if she wants to feel hurt and pain, and turn a 6 pack into chaos, its on her not you.

SoT

Quote from: square on September 11, 2021, 04:55:30 PM
While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground.

Agree fully that Mrs. Weary should be able to speak her point of view.  She should not have to accept his point of view.   Imo, the common ground in this story is "we may have to agree to disagree" and that Weary and his wife should respect each others adult/legal rights to home, joint possessions, joint children and other decisions for themselves that are legal, ethical and on their own, not hurtful to the other person. 

A 6-pack of beer in the fridge is, on its own, not hurting anything/anyone.  Now, if Weary slams all 6 and has a drunk tantrum, that is indeed encroaching on the rights of desired peace by his other family members.  But imo, that is applicable to almost anything, because the human is the one that can make any object or action/reaction, a tool for the abuse/rights-abuse of others. 

Therefore, in reverse, i believe that Mrs Weary used her choices for herself (regarding alcohol) to abuse Weary's legal and adult right to well-manage and enjoy alcohol.

SoT

WearyHusband - been reading through this thread and see such big realizations and forward steps in your life as you stand firm in an honorable way in your sphere of influence, own life, own home.

I wanted to share a resource and want to mention something that has become invaluable for me when faced with disordered behavior and choices of an intimate loved one.  These 'choices' are taken from the work of Danny Silk - (will link to resource - just a head's up it is faith based), I can walk myself through these with increasing confidence the more I use them and understand them -

I Can Choose:

To be a powerful person
Love over fear
Connection over disconnection
Respectful communication
Healthy Boundaries

In order to work with these choices I have had to dig deep and begin to understand what each means. For example, I have to learn what it means to me to be a powerful person or what love over fear looks like. Love for myself as well as another.

And then integrate all of this in my decision making process to align with the core values that I hold and live my life from.  I would also imagine that this will look differently for each of us. All of our circumstances and experiences are unique. There are commonalities to the challenges we face of course and the validation and insights we bring each other are so helpful, yet at the end of each day you are the only one who will be able to find the right path forward in your relationship with your wife.

Another thing I have learned to consider is to ask: is this productive? So, is this conversation, discussion, action, etc., productive or am I spinning in circles or getting nowhere fast. Am I addressing a problem I see as a 'we' problem and the other party doesn't have a problem? So, then it is actually a 'me' problem and though in intimate relationship it is distressing to realize that I am the only one who may have a problem with, say a lack of physical affection and sexual intimacy, at least I can focus on what to do about this problem and that takes me back to the principles I can choose.

Working with what is... what you can control, choose, change is not always easy to discern. Especially, with the caretaker tendencies you describe, which I can very closely relate to.

Learning to live out your human rights... for example, buying a really nice cooler, filling it with ice, and putting your six pack in it in the garage without asking, arguing, explaining, and not making it a big thing may be an easy, quiet, calm compromise. Or maybe not. I don't know, but I do know that you will figure it out as you are figuring out so many important things!

Here is a link to the YouTube vids that walk through the 5 principles I shared if you are interested and there are other vids that are enriching and have been very helpful for me, but again, I want to mention they are faith based: https://youtu.be/aUOy1_V7FGE

Keep doing the good and deep work you are doing!

Bloomie,

Thank you for your response. I have met Danny Silk (briefly) and I am very familiar with his work. His book, "Loving Your Kids on Purpose" had a deeply affecting influence on both my parenting and leadership, for which I am very grateful.

I look forward to watching the videos. I try to "Keep my love on" as I come Out of the FOG. This has been a very long and challenging adventure as I navigate irrational and extreme behavior from my uPDw who is a deeply compassionate and wise woman, but manifests behavior in the privacy of our home and our marriage relationship that she does not exhibit anywhere else. This is another aspect of navigating a marriage to a (potentially) PD spouse that is so confusing..

I especially appreciate your encouragement about how far I have progressed and your practical suggestions about a cooler in the garage. I often feel like I am so slow in my progress, so your words are especially encouraging, as are SoT's words of encouragement.

When I set boundaries and try to do what I think is good, healthy, and right for myself, I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse.

I'm now thinking I need to set boundaries for myself and only comply with demands she makes that I believe are good and healthy for me and our family (including our marriage), no matter her response, and respecting Danny Silk's advice. I need to decide whether to stay or leave based on her response to my setting of boundaries. I'm lonely and deprived and suffering the physical, emotional, and mental affects from ongoing patterns of emotional and verbal abuse that no one sees because it happens in the privacy of our marriage relationship. I'm also dealing with the frustration I experience of her denial and "boomerang" communication when I try to bring up these issues and how they affect me in a loving way. I'm convinced that she dissociates and has no awareness of her behavior in her darker moments.

As a person of faith, I think that God relates to us all with love. But every human brain has the capacity to create alternate "splitting" parts during times of trauma in childhood, from which they react in times of stress later in life, though they are not aware of it. This explanation provides a bit of solace for me - my uPDw doesn't actually believe or realize the things she says and does. It's part of her brain that was formed during intense times of trauma earlier in her life. I still believe the HS and/or really good therapy when someone is motivated to change can heal these things, and our situation is not hopeless. But until either of those things take place, I need to take care of myself and move on with my life in ways that are healthy for me and good example for my children.

I love her, but I don't want to be a "Caretaker" and enabler of abusive behavior any longer.

-WH

Weary, I really feel for you and I can relate to everything you write. Me an my uNPDw have not had any intimacy for over 2 years, not slept in the same bed other than odd nights for 3 years. Only "intimacy" we had was me massaging her feet when watching TV, I got so fed up with that one way stream so I started to ask her to massage my feet and she only laughed. So I stopped. The only times she tries to be any intimate is when she feels rejected and need to try to win me back, just so she can reject me. Weird.

Your beer story I can fully relate to as well, not with alcohol but with food. I am not allowed to cook or eat anything that smells. In her world everything smells so unless I am up for a fight, I need to cook and eat "approved" meals. I am pushing back on this more and more, the other day I decided to fry a couple of herrings. It was a bit of smoke in the air and the kitchen smelt a bit of fried fish, but that's what a kitchen should do isn't it? However, she lost the plot and came screaming at me how inconsiderate I was and how dare I fry fish. Then she flipped even more as I wasn't allowed to open a window to vent as that would give all the insect an opening in to the house (she believes we have an infestation and that something is wrong with our house and garden as we have so many insects, she is the only one that sees them by the way). Indian food, that has been banned for as long as I can remember. But the kids love it and I have started cooking it, she has just about started accepting me doing it but only the very mild ready made sauces.

One of my kids have met a new friend and invited her to our house, wow, this is scary. So a 12 year old child is coming to visit and play with our daughter, then they are having pizza together, what does uNPDw do? She spent the entire Sunday panicking and cleaning, shouting and stressing. The entire house has been cleaned, items put away and the other child been told to stay away. She is asking where she is supposed to be but that's irrelevant, nothing can go wrong as our perfect house and life must be show cased - for a 12 year old....

We had a long talk on Friday, I was confronted by uNPDw why I was ignoring her and why I was so mean to her. I tried to explain everything from my point of view, she challenged everything but in the end accepted to try to be better. I am in no real rush but always believe in giving someone a chance (must be her 1000th chance), but we agreed to try and also to try to have a united front with the kids. This is the really tricky bit as we don't agree with how to handle the kids. I told her no shouting and no smacking to reprimand them, but calmly try to handle them and tell them what they are doing wrong (or right). That took about 5 minutes before she went into a rage with them. If she has painted me white, someone else needs to be painted black. In this case, both children and alternating between who is black and who is white. The crazy making makes us all just confused. The entire weekend was just a long merry go round with her raging at one or two children, men asking her to stop and telling her it is not OK, then comforting the child and trying to tell calmly what they did and then round we go. Yesterday I took both kids out to the park for 2 hours, never invited uNPDw as she was so busy cleaning. Both kids were so happy and laughed and was mischievous as kids should be. Then back to the house for another merry go round.

I am not sure how much patient you have left Weary, but mine is gone. The only way to win this as I see it is to just set the boundaries and then work on our selves. I think for me the final straw has been to see how she behaves with the kids and how incapable she is to understand what she does is wrong.  She compares herself to the children and she very much behaves like she is one of them. I am tired to have 3 children in the house where I can only reason with 2 of them (the 2 real children).

Weary, please go and restock your fridge!

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 12, 2021, 05:57:08 PM
Bloomie,

Thank you for your response. I have met Danny Silk (briefly) and I am very familiar with his work. His book, "Loving Your Kids on Purpose" had a deeply affecting influence on both my parenting and leadership, for which I am very grateful.

I look forward to watching the videos. I try to "Keep my love on" as I come Out of the FOG. This has been a very long and challenging adventure as I navigate irrational and extreme behavior from my uPDw who is a deeply compassionate and wise woman, but manifests behavior in the privacy of our home and our marriage relationship that she does not exhibit anywhere else. This is another aspect of navigating a marriage to a (potentially) PD spouse that is so confusing..

I especially appreciate your encouragement about how far I have progressed and your practical suggestions about a cooler in the garage. I often feel like I am so slow in my progress, so your words are especially encouraging, as are SoT's words of encouragement.

When I set boundaries and try to do what I think is good, healthy, and right for myself, I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse.

I'm now thinking I need to set boundaries for myself and only comply with demands she makes that I believe are good and healthy for me and our family (including our marriage), no matter her response, and respecting Danny Silk's advice. I need to decide whether to stay or leave based on her response to my setting of boundaries. I'm lonely and deprived and suffering the physical, emotional, and mental affects from ongoing patterns of emotional and verbal abuse that no one sees because it happens in the privacy of our marriage relationship. I'm also dealing with the frustration I experience of her denial and "boomerang" communication when I try to bring up these issues and how they affect me in a loving way. I'm convinced that she dissociates and has no awareness of her behavior in her darker moments.

As a person of faith, I think that God relates to us all with love. But every human brain has the capacity to create alternate "splitting" parts during times of trauma in childhood, from which they react in times of stress later in life, though they are not aware of it. This explanation provides a bit of solace for me - my uPDw doesn't actually believe or realize the things she says and does. It's part of her brain that was formed during intense times of trauma earlier in her life. I still believe the HS and/or really good therapy when someone is motivated to change can heal these things, and our situation is not hopeless. But until either of those things take place, I need to take care of myself and move on with my life in ways that are healthy for me and good example for my children.

I love her, but I don't want to be a "Caretaker" and enabler of abusive behavior any longer.

-WH

Hi Weary,

I really enjoyed reading the depth of this post by you and the deep heartfelt writing in response to Bloomies wonderful, informative and supportive post.  I agree with Bloomie's encouragement that you are making fantastic progress as you "stand firm in an honorable way in your sphere of influence, own life, own home."

In the middle of your reply, was this paragraph, and i believe it may be beneficial to examine it a bit closer.  Weary wrote:

"I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse."


Breaking that paragraph into sections:

1 "I feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries."

I personally like to think about protective boundaries in very real world settings that most everyone encounters; road construction. Construction barriers are erected by road crews to protect the workers and protect the forward progress of the corrective work.  Do you believe that encountering construction barriers should be a 'threatening' reaction to a driver?   Do you believe the construction workers are 'harming' the driver by making that portion of the road a slow-down; a detour; a impassible barrier?  Do you believe that its ok for anyone to confront the construction workers for erecting the barrier?  The answer to all are an emphatic 'no'.  Therefore imo, its clear to see that your uPDw's reactions are abnormal, self-focused and attempts to control Weary, the construction worker who is sectioning-off certain areas of his life that need repair, alteration and fortification.  This work is proper work; work that Weary has full right to do.  Therefore, like the road crew, you are NOT harming your uPDw and therefore the guilt you feel is because of her PD-driven reaction (refer to 3C's rule), her conditioning you over the many years to react this way and your unbalanced caretaker traits which you have now put 'under construction'.  Part of your healing alteration work is, imo, shedding or dismissing the feelings of guilt for good, proper, adult-right chosen, contruction work on your own life. 

2. "The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing". 

This is to be expected, especially because of PD traits and your protective roadwork (#1).  In my experience, there is nothing you can do (except retreat backwards into caretaking behaviors) to close the distance.  My experiences are that the distances get farther apart.  But that choice is 100% your wifes choice, as your proper construction zone has detoured her down a road she has never taken and her deepest underlying trait 'Fear of Abandonment' (i recommend you study/understand it) is rearing its head as she navigates the new route.  Its NOT your problem and in fact, is detrimental imo for you to attempt to reduce her experiences by caretaking.  Enough driving down new roads and your wife will steadily be conditioned that she can ACTUALLY navigate herself in new situations.  But again, the emotional detour is to be expected.  So Weary, i suggest you look back intently at your daydream list, and supplement your emotional needs by spending more time with your kids, your friends, your coworkers, your acquaintances you meet in your daydream paths and finally in yourself and your one-on-one relationship with Christ. (i understand your stated faith, and its importance to you, albeit this is not the religion section of the forum, i believe it should be in this list on this thread). 

3. " We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact.". 

Imo, this is  A: sexual control-manipulation in a marriage and B: your  "...tried over and over..."  feeds her intense need to be needed, but in a strange and truly hurtful way, also feeds her need to powerfully control by denying the same for you.  She has turned the beauty of sex within marriage into an emotional  'trap'  because of the marital covenant of fidelity.  I personally believe (and also experience) this most sadistic control move.  I will no longer 'over and over'.  I will, in my marital obligation and covenant, offer my time and care to provide my wife emotional and sexual affection, but if i am denied by her on my first offer, i will not physically suffer for her choices for herself and will take matters into my own hands...literally.  When the time arises again to offer to her again, it is the same process.  My uPDw, no longer is given the sadistic thrill of sexual denial and manipulation of me, but only of herself. 

4. "We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing."

Really???  I personally believe the hypocrisy of this experience with my uPDw is one of most difficult mental challenges in dealing with faith-proclaiming PD's.  I personally disconnect myself from attaching those kind of thoughts and statements to my uPDw and uPDfather, and instead focus only on myself.  So if I wrote that sentence, it would instead read "I am committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but my uPDw's behaviors don't align with similar statements that she communicates.  But thats between her and Jesus to work on." 

5. "Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse." 

Imo, this is the ever-changing, ever-higher high-jump bar relationship that exists between a caretaker and a PD.  You are proactively shedding this behavior, so expect some severe pushback and punishing emotional distance (the two D's of the IDD cycle) to heighten.  I recommend toolbox reactions and an emotional 'indifference' to her attempts to reset you back into your caretaker role. 

SoT

escapingman and SoT,

I'm grateful for your empathy and encouraging words. SoT, truly, you've been a lifeline of sanity and wisdom as I move forward. Thank you.

Escapingman, two years? Oh my. I thought my situation was rough after eight months. I hope you find courage and wisdom to make decisions in coming days that are helpful for you and good for your children. In the meantime, please know that you are valuable and worthy of love that you are not receiving from your spouse in this season of your life.

Here's what happened in my situation next in the story of this thread...

Today I was out in the driveway with my 15 year old.

He said, "Dad, why is there beer in the bush?"

I looked over at a bush in our front yard and see that the rest of the five beers my wife took from our refrigerator are stashed there, hanging from a limb.

I had no idea what to say that would be honorable to my uPDw.

I said, "Well, I guess mom put them there. I'm not sure why."

Now I'm wondering what the heck I should do.

Leave them there? Take them back into the house? Take them into the garage?

Technically, these are mine, but I don't want to stir up more chaos or do things that are unproductive. This is so freaking bizarre.

I hate that my son saw a six pack of beer (five anyway) hanging in the bush in our front yard.

On a hopeful front, I found a new therapist today who has extensive experience with Caretakers and PD relationships. Man, it was so encouraging to meet with a therapist who understood what the heck I've been going through and could be a safe place to advise me in my own healing journey.

-WH

Weary, this is such standard PD behaviour. When in a rage my uNPDw throws stuff all over, it could be food, it could be items, it could be just anything. Before I used to pick it up and clean if required, now I leave it as it is her mess. I have realised now that after a couple of days, she normally put the items back. To take an example with beer as that's what your story is about, she took out a handful of expensive craft beer I had in my beer fridge and just threw them over the worktop. In her mind as I have learnt, the only reason was to get a reaction and to hurt me. I left those beers laying on the worktop until she eventually put them back in the fridge. She has never taken my beers out and threw them again. My advice to you, if you can hack it, is to leave those beer hanging in the bush until she takes them away (or someone else nicks them).

Weary,

Sometimes, the bizarre actions/reactions of my uPDw can be so odd (and sometimes so hypocritical) that its slightly humorous.  Sorry to find a bit of humor in your post, but I already know you are a man of faith and maybe you, like Jesus on occasion, find some humor in life's situations. I have a managing coworker who states to me regarding some of the odd things some difficult employees under his management do and say:  "if he and I cant find some things in their odd actions/reactions to laugh about, were just going to go insane." 

Well, I cant help but chuckle a little at the similarity of your story to the Abraham/Isaac story.

Weary 22:13-14   "He said, "Dad, why is there beer in the bush?"  I looked over at a bush in our front yard and see that the rest of the five beers my wife took from our refrigerator are stashed there, hanging from a limb."

Genesis 22: 13-14   " Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide....."

The PD-hypocrisy of the event is that your uPDw-claimed 'unsafe' beer went from Weary's known, monitored, normal and expected safe-storage of a refrigerator, to an unknown, unsafe outdoor place, easily found by a teenager(s) away from the watchful eye of their parents.  Imo, also the very 'taboo' concern you rightly were addressing in full and balanced control regarding your kids, just became oddly 'taboo' by your wife angrily and haphazardly discarding beer in a bush where teenagers can (and did) easily find it.

I would rightly and responsibly remove the beer from the landscape where kids (yours or others) have access and properly discard all (or her 3 only ) in contrast to your wife's improper disposal, and keep your 2 elsewhere, like a workplace or friends fridge?  I would also, as opinion-stated before, buy a new (since you found the original, then purposefully buy a different brand to differentiate from the first) 6 pack and silently and calmly put in your home fridge, where beer should properly be stored and treated normally.  If kids are not educated yet on alcohol and laws, i would fully educate on both. 

With your 15 year old, is this incident a good event, (one on one in private) to further teach your teen that husbands and wives (and any two people) can have vast differences on certain subjects and that its ok to agree to disagree and how each adult is rightly entitled to their own opinion?   

Also is this a teachable moment with your 15 yr old son, to discuss how alcohol is made, viewed, used and treated by societies, both historically in the world's societies and also of protective laws?  Also, possibly teach how it is a skilled craft to make well (fine wines, craft beers, carefully distilled and aged spirits) and can be respected as such and treated carefully and responsibly.  Lastly, since i know you are a man of faith, teach him how Biblically, alcohol is represented, both in balanced  use and well made vs cheaply made (wedding miracle and old vs new wine/wineskins), and contrasted in the Bible by abuse/drunkenness and not treated as taboo. 

SoT

I don't think half the beers belong to the wife.

Sure, it's a shared household. But Weary owns all of his own socks, deodorant, cell phone, etc. As does the wife own hers.

If the wife purchases a book, Weary does not get to rip half of it out.

Let's not overcomplicate the beer.

Quote from: square on September 14, 2021, 09:22:36 AM
I don't think half the beers belong to the wife.

Sure, it's a shared household. But Weary owns all of his own socks, deodorant, cell phone, etc. As does the wife own hers.

If the wife purchases a book, Weary does not get to rip half of it out.

Let's not overcomplicate the beer.

Square,

Im going to comment on your point made to Weary, since the suggestion was initially made by me, therefore your opinion is cast in my direction as well. 

I fully agree with you that Weary's beer is all his, just like all the items you mentioned.  I have personally experienced my uPDw and uPDw challenge me, both openly and also covertly manipulating 50% of an item, resource and decision, to lob the ball back in my court, as a strong challenge in circular arguing, with a playground-bully mentality.  In some past instances, with my uPDf, prior to my steady and eventual full removal of myself from legal connections with him over time, I was PD-challenged in very serious ways, which had severe implications that went way beyond me, because his legal control ability (by manipulating 50% which also disabled my 50%) affected others as well (employees, real estate investments, business monies, other organization members etc).

So now, when i can predict potential PD reactions to a particular subject, (even as benign as a six pack) I will take that 50% bully option out of the PD playbook in advance, by purposefully planning for it and also advance-expressing my ownership of my 50%, which also pre-acknowledges my understanding of their rights. Therefore, since Weary has experienced a 100% take of the remaining beer (after he now crossed Mrs Weary's previous alcohol threat line with one beer...) and her 100% attitude toward the home, he may still face a 50% challenge in his next steps from his uPDw as she struggles with her new loss of assumed full control. 

So, the idea of a preplanned 50% attitude with the beer is one less volley that Weary has to make.  It also uses a simple six-pack as a larger example tool, to reinforce Wearys previous statement to her, that he owns and has rights to 50% of the house/property, 50% of the way his children are raised and 100% of his decisions.

SoT

SoT, I agree with Square but I see your point. Would it not be better if Weary got to the bank and got out money for the same value as the 6 beer and then gave to his wife? I have been toying with this idea before when my uNPDw complains about any purchase I do. If I buy whatever I want, I get the same amount out of the bank and give it to her to do whatever she want with. That would shoot down any arguments about where the money is spent. However, it doesn't look like Weary's wife is interested in who owns the beer or what they cost, all she seems to be interested is for Weary to not drink them.

Weary, can you buy yourself a fridge with a lock on and store your beer in it? This would be within your rights, if she breaks in to it and takes the beer document it.

Good luck Weary and I hope you can enjoy a beer or two in peace soon.

Quote from: escapingman on September 15, 2021, 03:54:24 AM
SoT, I agree with Square but I see your point. Would it not be better if Weary got to the bank and got out money for the same value as the 6 beer and then gave to his wife? I have been toying with this idea before when my uNPDw complains about any purchase I do. If I buy whatever I want, I get the same amount out of the bank and give it to her to do whatever she want with. That would shoot down any arguments about where the money is spent. However, it doesn't look like Weary's wife is interested in who owns the beer or what they cost, all she seems to be interested is for Weary to not drink them.

Weary, can you buy yourself a fridge with a lock on and store your beer in it? This would be within your rights, if she breaks in to it and takes the beer document it.

Good luck Weary and I hope you can enjoy a beer or two in peace soon.

I agree with Square as well.  Again, im just throwing the 50% idea out, to combine with everyone else's thoughts, for Wearys consideration of his situation and his own decisions for himself.  I personally believe every situation and every person is different, therefore no hard rules, but simply opinions, shared experiences and a toolbox to apply as needed. 

Based on experience, i know that with my uPDw and uPDf, if there is any legal right or real controlling ability of a item, resource or organization, the PD's in my life will play that card when it best suits their their fight and maximizes my disadvantage.  Therefore i tend to think ahead and take the card out of play in advance.  But thats just me.

Escapingman, Square, Weary and others may believe its over-complication, unnecessary and/or even untrue for some items or resources, such as squares examples of socks, a book and the others square mentioned and I fully agree.  Now, lol in overthinking, those items are either singular in their nature or in pairs for a good reason and yes, it seems ridiculous to consider them in a 50% mentality in marriage. Although my dryer seems to think it owns one of my socks on occasion hahaha. Unless Weary's double-barreling the beer with one in each hand, a beer is singular in nature as well.   

But as you said, money is a different story. I have plenty of experience with money-rights being used in control by both and it seems the government believes that item/resource is worth its focus in a divorce as well, no matter who busted their ass and well-managed it over the years.  So escapingman, if you advance-apply the 50% mentality to money in a future purchase that you predict will be a fight, it would be interesting to read your results. 

Obviously this idea could be taken way too far by me, with just about any purchase or resource, and in a way, could be construed as 'caretaking' to avoid an argument.  So, i am very selective based on my perception of how large an issue can become.  In Weary's case, i do believe his uPDw threatened to divorce him over his choice to enjoy alcohol, so it would seem alcohol represents a very large control resource for Mrs Weary and so a six pack of beer represents a divorce threat.  If Weary really wanted to eliminate the beer altogether and boil the argument down to only control and the divorce threat, then just bring home 1 cold beer in-hand every day desired and pop the top on the way in, kick back and enjoy it.  Imo its not just a six pack of beer...its a six pack of adult rights in a 50% marriage and a 50% home and in 50% choices of how to raise children. 

But this is Weary's thread and I am simply a comrade on the same journey, sharing experiences alongside you all, so that we can glean or discard for our own decisions along the path.  I don't desire to hijack this thread over a six pack, and ive added my opinion plenty already, and will wait to read how Weary's story progresses. 

SoT

After consideration, I chose to grab the remaining five beers that were hanging from the bush in our front yard. I reasoned that I needed to do what I thought was right and good. I didn't want beers hanging in a bush in our front yard, readily available to any teen passersby. I'm laughing a bit as I write this, because it seems so comical that beers are hanging from a bush in our front yard. The laughter helps!

I put the beers on a shelf in our garage, readily visible. That was two days ago. My uPDw has not said anything about them.

To clarify, my wife has not threatened divorce if I have beer in the house. She's merely threatened to take the kids and leave if I do. Which she then denied saying a few years ago in a joint therapy session with a counselor - followed by her following through on her threat when I bought beer during a family BBQ. (I had one beer)

A few months ago, she took one of our children out of town for a sports event. Since she was gone, I bought a six pack and enjoyed most of the beers over the weekend. I put the empty cans in the trash.

Upon her return, she woke up in the middle of the night and went through the garbage can in our yard to see if I had beer while she was gone. The next day, she packed her suitcase and told me and the kids she was leaving.  She told me, "You're either going to choose beer or me!"

At that time, I acquiesced and told her I wouldn't have any beer in the house, given the way it affects her. I'm sort of regretting that decision.

Now I'm choosing a different route. I still struggle with the thought, "Why would I choose to do anything that causes my uPDw fear?"  I want to be a good husband and act in love.

But then I reflect further and realize that the further and further I conform and placate and acquiesce to her demands in order to alleviate her fears, the MORE distance there is between us and the less I am experiencing freedom, intimacy, and joy. It's baffling. I'm learning to set boundaries, make healthy choices for myself, and consider my uPDw and try to "live with her in an understanding way" as best I can. It's not easy, and it's often confusing to find the place of wisdom and balance.

I'm also realizing that I'm at a place that I can't do this hamster wheel game much longer.

Thanks for all your support, advice, and encouragement, my Out of the FOG friends.
-WH

Weary, thanks for the update and the clarification regarding the past and your wife's threats regarding physically leaving vs divorce.  Thanks also for the details on past events which helps to understand the situation better.  The bush (Busch?) beer on a very visible shelf will be interesting indeed. 

Im hoping over time your use of the toolbox opens up some better paths for you as you work on boundaries and the balance of care while not 'caretaking'.

SoT

A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

Quote from: square on September 15, 2021, 08:39:25 PM
A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

😂

Quote from: square on September 15, 2021, 08:39:25 PM
A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

Oh my goodness, this made me laugh way too hard. LOL

Quote from: square on September 15, 2021, 08:39:25 PM
A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

Square wins the Internet today.

square, you cracked me up. Out of the FOG comment of the year!

square - snorting liquid from my nose at your comment - for the win

I feel for you Weary. I haven't been exactly in your situation, but I'm familiar with the basic outlines.

It is painful to read this. To be perfectly honest, I'm sitting here thinking, "Dude, the only way out of this situation is to get out--get a divorce attorney and start planning, the sooner and faster the better."

However, I know it is a lot easier to say this from the outside, sitting on the other side of Valley of the Shadow of Personality Disorders. It took me a loooong time to figure this stuff out, remove unhealthy people from my life and set up boundaries to keep family PDs at bay. Obviously, it still impacts me, otherwise, why would I continue to check in on this board from time to time?

Just know that once you make the decision to see the world as it really is, stop excusing your wife's behavior and end feeling responsible for her PD-ness, it gets better.

You are clearly on that path. Good for you!

Couple of thoughts...

You and others have said your wife has a right to express her feelings. In the general abstract sense I agree; however, that right has its limits. Moreover, when one discusses intimate relationships in terms of someone's "rights" it is a sign that there are extremely serious problems at hand. The discourse of "rights" is political/legal, so to bring it into interpersonal discussions means the end of a relationship is potentially immanent.

Does she have a right to keep expressing to you her irrational feeling that you drinking a few beers is going to cause harm? No. She's made it perfectly clear. The only reason for her to keep repeating it is to emotionally batter you and provide a lame justification for public drama. Throwing a six pack into the bushes is adolescent immaturity and a lame attempt to shame you. (On that note, remember that people can only shame us if we feel and act shamed. Shamelessness is a great trait to cultivate in the face of PDs.)

An even better question: is her constant expression of this irrational fear and demonstration of controlling, vengeful and sadistic behavior healthy? No.

She needs to figure out a way to deal with her irrational fears. Figuring out how is not your responsibility. Nor is it your responsibility to constantly police your own behavior so that she doesn't react the way she does. As you have pointed out, she has the ability to act very differently in her relationships outside of your family dynamic. By getting the support you provide by remaining in the marriage, she's enabled to maintain that bifurcated existence.

While I understand the impulse behind the complicated discussions here about how somehow in principle she's has a right to half the beers you buy and marking some as hers, etc., etc., from my perspective that seems like a form of JADE without the A(rguing)-- JXDE, if you will. I've been there and done that. I eventually decided it was just me holding myself to an impossibly high standard in a vain attempt to be reasonable with people who aren't reasonable.

One of the most helpful things a friend said to me when I was struggling with a live-in Dx-bi-polar and uBPD girlfriend was "You don't always have to be the bigger person." Remember, you don't always have to play the nice guy. Obviously, you don't want to fly off the handle, especially since kids and thus a custody battle are likely in your future (assuming you decide to end this nightmare), but it is fine to do things she doesn't like.

Finally, as someone who was raised in a very Christian family where "turn the other cheek" was a constant message that taught me to tolerate abuse, let me say that distancing yourself from abusers is the only way to find peace, both inner and outer.

Hang in there, man! I can see the wheels shifting in your head and your spine getting stronger.

I just meant that the expectation that she speak for her husband's feelings is unfair.

Or is it? My husband frequently tells me that on the rare occasion I crack and express something - when he has me cornered and is yelling at me - that it's "all about you." But I never hear him speak on my behalf.

It seems to me a discussion is two people expressing their points of view and trying to come to common ground. Is it a fair point to say that someone expressing their point of view is automatically wrong because they expressed their own position and not someone else's?

This has been an amazing thread. There is so much difficulty, so much growth, and so much community. I have been laughing out loud. Thank you, Weary, for sharing your journey. I have really resonated with several posts. I will share some of my thoughts in hopes that it will contribute to the flavor of this thread.

SoT explained that you will be blamed for changing, and not to apologize for it. It was very powerful for me to verbalize and agree guilt-free that I AM different, this is the "new" Mary, and I don't feel bad about it. uNPDh read the Bible at me for about a half hour to convince me to submit to the emotional abuse, and I respectfully told him I didn't interpret it that way--a HUGE shift in my behavior. I started to realize that the reason I had felt so much guilt about not being a better spouse was that he was telling me I was guilty. Once I started listening for it, I was shocked at how much blame was laid on. Sometimes I feel like I have become a heathen, but more often, the peace and sanity of living Out of the FOG, as well as feedback from friends, overrides that.

I agree that it is super confusing to accept love from a spouse, but not to trust it. Like Weary, I feel that my journey has been two steps forward, one back on this one. I thought I had it settled in my mind to accept the truth of the situation, but lately I have struggled again to accept it.  It feels like I must be two different people almost--one who loves, yet is detached. My brain is struggling with this dichotomy.

On daydreaming about life with perfectly enacted boundaries, I have started living out some of my wishes. Consequences have been pretty heavy, but each victory is a new step of freedom.

1. work-I cut back my work hours, and got so much more time to raise my kids and have friendships. It took about four hard years for him to get past the angst of it, but the financial responsibility for the family is much more balanced now. I am bolder in claiming and acting that half of our monthly income and assets are mine versus the days when he controlled most all the money whether he was working or not.

2. Visiting friends-I have quit asking permission and instead started telling him my plans. At first, he seethed that if I ever did anything like that again (I had gone to a wedding for an afternoon) that he would file for divorce. He also upended our family weekend schedule to exclude me in punishment that lasted about 6 months.  I did not acquiesce, and have continued getting together with friends and groups that I enjoy. I am so much happier in my own skin with this new pattern established.

3. Extended family-I would give myself an "emerging" score on this one. I am definitely doing more than I used to, but given the punishments from #1 and #2, I get scared to press towards what I want to do which is to have a set schedule of visiting four times per year.

4. Social-I would get much more involved in church life, especially singing. This area is emerging.  Most times after I go to an event, I'm so glad that I "faced the music" and went.

5. Hobbies- I would invest more of my time in the non-profit I started. Several years back he demanded that I shut it down, despite my years of investment in the work. As it stands, I try hard to work on this project under the radar which stifles the work and growth in a LOT of ways. I don't even talk about it in front of the kids much as in the past they have unwittingly narced on me. I want this project to become my work eventually, but unless I get moving on it, that won't happen. What would happen if I just worked on it openly? It could be 6 months of upheaval in some area of life....I know, I know, fear. Another detraction is time. I allow a lot of time to get sucked away by the hamster wheel.

6. Time-I would watch way less TV to "be together as a family" and spend less time eating out which can drag on for hours.

Finally, Detached wrote, "...it is fine to do things she doesn't like." It was a great day when I learned this!

Thanks everyone for your contributions!

Mary

Mary, so nice and encouraging to read your daydreams list and your proactivity in making the daydreams a reality, all with your boundary and other Out of the FOG tools in full gear!  I hope you are able to boldly continue forward, turn your non-prof into the work reality you desire and continue to unveil and experience the 'new' Mary!   

SoT

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful, affirming, and helpful replies.
SoT, I nominate you for the newly coined "Gandalf" award for guiding me so skillfully through the dreaming exercise. I found that exercise - and your subsequent "mentoring" afterward -- to be incredibly freeing and helpful.
Grateful for each of you,
WH

Weary,

Thank you for the kind words.  Its a joy for me as well to glean from, think through and share experiences and opinions with others who are on the same path.  Im super excited for you, in reading you are experiencing a new sense of freedom and empowerment.  Keeping you in thoughts and prayer for that snowball to grow. 

SoT

Hi Weary,

I'm so sorry you are dealing with all of this. I've been following this thread for a while, not really sure what to write. My husband is similar to your wife in many ways. My stbx doesn't celebrate any holidays, and sees no need for it as "I never had holidays as a kid."

I really relate to one part of your story specifically. When you said that through therapy you've realized that you "don't want to hurt your wife", I completely understand this, and I imagine a lot of the people here on Out of the FOG relate to this. Partially because we are caretakers, partially because many of us are likely codependent, and partially because of our childhoods - growing up with parents who had personality disorders themselves.

I believe you've been married much longer than I have, but I struggled for a very long time with thoughts of not wanting to hurt my uPDH. He has expressed to me that many people in his life abandoned him, and I, being the people pleasing codependent which I am, felt that I needed to stay to PROVE I could never hurt him like other people. Although he was hurting me immensely, I felt that this was my cross to bear. It took me many years, and a lot of heartache to realize that it wasn't.

I just wanted to comment to let you know that you are only responsible for you. It isn't your job to keep her happy at the expense of your own happiness, or at the expense of your physical or mental health. I know using the toolbox is helpful. It's helped me a lot. But at the end of the day, we only have one life, and you should spend your life being happy, not in service to her. She is deeply broken, her personality is underdeveloped and she does not have the skills and tools necessary to recover from this. Here is a link to a study (there are many) showing that people with NPD have underdevelopment in the part of the brain that we use for empathy:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130619101434.htm

This is also true for people with BPD and people with ASPD. They truly do lack the functions required to perceive others emotions, or to feel empathy themselves.

As you're writing in the working on it section, I assume that you want to try to save your marriage. Therefore, I'm not going to tell you to leave, that is your choice. I just wonder, what would be so bad about hurting your wife?
What is it that makes you unable to do so?

I finally came to the conclusion personally that not everyone can be helped. I can't save my husband, as his brain is not fully developed. I CAN save myself the years of pain and get my life back. As much as it hurts me to hurt him, it is absolutely necessary to keep myself intact. I will be thinking about you and watching how your story unfolds here on the boards. I hope that the toolbox and the other posters will be able to help you in a meaningful way and I wish you well on your journey with your PD spouse.