Out of the FOG

Over the past several days I wrote a brief note to md, shutting down the ugliness between her and me. I apologized for some things I said that were frankly rude and derogatory to her. I told her honestly, I had pushed those "conversations" thinking to somehow air the grievances and resentments and find a way to put them behind us finally. I admitted how wrong I was, that those conversations only served to stir up old pain that was better left alone. Basically: I have to find peace and forgiveness and I intend to continue to work on that, hoping she will do the same for herself.

In no way did I indicate I welcome or would be making any future contact, but neither did I tell her outright that her phone has been blocked. She can read whatever she wants into my words. That's all on her, as it should be finally. Not my stuff anymore. When I put that card in the mail, I felt a hard knot I've been carrying between my shoulders relax. I came on home and lay down for a peaceful nap finally.

For all the times she's said "she loves her children," I don't get it. Nothing in her actions or tone says love to me. Honestly if that is love I don't want it. At this point I'm not sure I have any idea what love it, I'm just sure that's not it. Those are the words she uses to make things appear all rosy on the surface maybe - they sound good to outsiders who never see behind the curtain.

I'm very glad you've felt relief from mailing that card.  The only time I felt "heard" was when I mailed a similar card to Nmom and cut contact (for a while).  I understand about telling others she loves you -- that's the only way I ever heard it, too.  It was as intimate as my Nmom dared let herself get, but it was all for show, as well.  It's weird, isn't it?  Like you're on the outside looking in as they talk about how much they love you.  It was enough to keep me tethered to her for years and years.  I think your message, the way you presented it and the relief you feel are all good for you and I'm proud of you!  :hug:

Sounds good. Congratulations! Sounds like you are freeing yourself from her claws. What is your plan for getting her out of your mind?

Good that you're taking care of yourself and doing what you feel is best. I'm glad your shoulder tension eased up when you mailed the note.

I thought long and hard about sending that note, Sunny, questioned whether it was the right thing to do. I knew I owed her an apology for some things I said our last conversation and there's no way I was going to call her and again open that door. Taking the time to write and edit the note until I said what I needed to say and no more, helped me center myself, be clear and feel better about it. Whether she hears me or turns it again into some attack is all on her. She'd long since made it clear she wasn't interested in my thoughts or feelings, but in staying focused on that there's no attack or condemnation of her. I've done enough of that and it doesn't help me lay things to rest.

Notright, Ive started EMDR therapy and hoping to densensitize all the ugly stuff in there along with erasing her voice. The ruminations and interior conversations [all those things I was never allowed to voice] are hard and have been wearing me down pretty badly. Writing out the best/worst memories actually helped already in releasing some of it. I had a really hard few days just after but that has eased where I'm thinking more clearly, finding the happy again, resting better.

Amadahy, the "I love my children" has become repetitive, said exactly that way every time and spoken by rote. It's like she's saying what she thinks she's supposed to say, with none of the feeling. It's typically accompanied by something along the lines of "...but I don't love what they do." There's no such thing as unconditional love, where one is loved and accepted warts, differences and all. She always seems to have a need to add that "but" at the end to quantify what she's saying. What it does is negate everything but she feels all justified in it so all is well.

Moglow, that sounds like a massive leap you've made. I sometimes wonder if admitting to ourselves our part in the dynamics is key to moving on and understanding that you don't have to be perfect to be genuinely loved. I'm so glad you felt a shift after mailing that note x

Moglow - staying true to yourself in this is admirable and not unexpected given your kind and loving heart and ability to reflect. Trusting the relief and release will continue to build and envelop you in an atmosphere of peace that is unshakable. :hug:

Moglow - Good for you!    My mom also tells everyone that she loves me - the cognitive dissonance is crazy with her.   I did EDMR for 6 months.   It was a godsend.....but also VERY difficult at the time.   I liken it to emotional chemotherapy.    It makes you feel awful while killing the cancer.   I noticed that 2-3 days after a session, I would simply lose my sh+t.    I would have nightmares, worse anxiety or depression.....and then it would dissipate.    Be very, very kind to yourself while you go down this path.  It is SO worth it, but it stirs up a lot of pain in the process.   

Thank you for that, 'ducks. That makes sense, considering what I've experienced so far - a couple of hard mental dips have made me wonder if i can do this. I've thought of it as ripping off scabs to expose and truly heal old wounds, chemotherapy is every bit as apt if not more so. I'll try to keep that in mind - i can already see i may require reinforcements as I go along!

A good practitioner of EMDR will spend time with you before delving in.   They'll want to be sure you have skills and resources to self sooth and self regulate.   And, they'll watch you and keep you from re-traumatizing.   SO worth it!

I expected to dive off in it and wondered at the slow pace so far, I'm sure she's watching and spacing it out intentionally. I've been pretty raw, not sleeping or eating well, teetering on/off depression on several levels. Things stirred up pretty hard again just with the best/worst list and we talked about that. We've got a break for a few weeks due to mutual scheduling, so that's probably actually a good thing. Recovery time, as it were.

I'd told her I wanted to write mother an apology note. She was in complete agreement, that regardless of md's interpretation I'm offering a sincere and necessary apology. If I didn't, I'd just keep beating myself up and keep it stirred up within me. What md chooses to do with it is truly not my stuff - I'm hoping she'll just accept and carry on. But this is mommie dearest and I know she's not likely to change her spots at this point. It is what it is.

It's a better day, calm and accepting instead of edgy and angry. So there's that. Progress!

I'm glad you wrote this note, and I hope that it did make you feel some better!  It is upsetting at times/ when it happens over and over where you feel like you are never heard.

I personally had tried to explain how I feel through text messages with my mother and father...but, they just never saw what I was saying or cared to see it either.

I hope that you continue to find yourself...give yourself as long as you need...I feel like you are on the right path!  =)  I am only 9 months NC, quite new still, but, I just want you to know that we all support you here...

Sometimes we have to do things that are uncomfortable for our own good...I know I've had to do that...and I feel like although it feels weird...it sometimes just has to be done for health/sanity of ourselves.

Ahh...I completely know what you mean when you say the "love" thing....As a child I always had to say..."I love you" to my parents to hear them tell me they love me back...I don't feel like they ever did this out of their own will...but something I had to push out of them.

They love to say this kind of thing around other people who have no clue about their skeletons in the closet...it is annoying! 

Moglow I hope EMDR continues to be of help.  It sounds tough at the moment and I'm glad you have some time for healing in between.  If sending an apology letter is something you need to do, then it's great that your therapist is positive regarding that.  I think if we have something we need to say, it's better for it to be said.  Then you can move on and leave it with her.  Then it's really up to her to respond in her own way.  Then it's up to her to self reflect and come back to you, whether that's in a genuine manner or not is really  up to her.  However hopefully you see you have done everything you possibly could to connect.  In your heart you can move forward knowing there wasn't anything more you could have done.  We need two people to make a relationship work and if she isn't able to put in the effort needed, then there isn't anything more you can do. 

You are moving forward in a loving way and that is something to be proud of.

Hey Moglow,

IMHO those are huge steps! It is very heavy emotional work you are doing so I'm glad you are not in a rush, will have some time in between to process. That you are able to offer an apology is a sign of great maturity. They will take it in whatever way they will--that's to be seen, but you are doing this for yourself and that's what's important.

There were a few homework assignments like the ones you described in Pete Walker's PTSD book. I found that they stirred up a lot of emotions and I put them aside. your post reminds me, perhaps it's time to go back and take another look,

I second what Hilltop says:
"You are moving forward in a loving way and that is something to be proud of."

Take care and be kind to yourself.

Quote from: HappypantsI sometimes wonder if admitting to ourselves our part in the dynamics is key to moving on and understanding that you don't have to be perfect to be genuinely loved.

This has been a continuing theme for me for as far back as I can remember - I play and replay conversations and where did I go wrong and what should I have said if anything. Mainly that's what's driven me to therapy now, I can't keep doing this to myself. BUT it's definitely different now - I'm looking at what I really said/did in and of itself, without her twist on it. Even with the emotions involved, I know for the most part I still watched my words and how I said them, tried to be a voice of reason. Until I didn't at times, when my frustration overwhelmed me.

But the last part, being/feeling genuinely loved? It's not there, I have no idea what that's like with her. Whatever passes for love in md's mind isn't being communicated [or maybe it is...], it feels like just another buzzword. For her "love" appears to be total compliance and agreement with her every word and deed. Simple as it sounds on the surface to just roll with that and why didn't I just to keep the appearance of peace, the fact remains that for every inch where there was no reaction, she'd grasp a mile or two and go harder. I DID just roll with it and keep my mouth shut no matter how I was treated for many years, just to keep the peace.

So this morning's light bulb moment for me: Mother was insistent that "our problems" go back to this or that very specific instance and point in time [completely disregarding the way she'd *always* treated and talked to me, but I digress]. The two she primarily focused on were well into my adulthood and almost ten years apart - but which one is it?? I'm in agreement that things absolutely tanked between us, probably closer to the first of the two she kept flinging in my face. But not for the variety of reasons she voiced to me.

I started speaking up, plain and simple. She'd say things to me and I'd responded, asked her to not say certain things and make it clear they weren't okay. I said No in a variety of ways as politely and calmly as I knew, and that's just not allowed in her mind. No one is/was ever allowed to contradict her, correct her, "talk back" with anything in which she was in disagreement - not since she was a child. She liked and wanted it that way, remaining the bully who was never called on her stuff. Her whole family had tiptoed around her throughout her life and until they left this world, and no one else does. She resents that, deeply. When you don't roll over, it's a hard insult to her.

I stepped up *for ME*, not against her or anyone else! She saw what should have been normal with someone voicing, hey that's not okay and I wish you wouldn't do that, as me attacking her [her specific word to others: attack]. Me saying things were hurtful and made me feel less than or unwanted? She saw/heard attack, then full on mocked me some more. I responded to the mocking, pointing it out as exactly what was hurtful - more of the same. Over and over again for decades now. And now I'm accused of causing her health issues because God forbid she accept any responsibility for herself.

Interesting what a dab of distance will do for a person, isn't it. I mean, I knew, have known for ages and yet this is still different for me. Its a calm acceptance, not emotional or irrational reactions to it finally.

I would say things probably tanked because you didn't do what the rest of the family did, which was to put up with her behaviour quietly.  They could probably do this because they weren't around her so much.  Perhaps they thought it was rude to speak up, perhaps they didn't want the rages who knows but she got away with it for most of her life without being held accountable.  She is simply upset she can't continue on as she always has.  There is simply no self reflection there.

She was able to see and hear when you have said something hurtful however she seems to think she is excused for the same behaviours. She simply wants others to go along to get along, to her it's an inconvenience for you to have spoken up.  Is that why she is so angry, she simply wants compliance to continue to be as nasty as she likes without having any discomfort sent her way.  She is unwilling to change, it is up to everyone else to do that.

That's the part of these PD's I really don't understand.  They do seem to understand what they are doing, they feel entitled to act that way but they seem so angry when others are upset.

Even if this happened 10 years ago your MD has not made any effort to try to get along.  If you didn't want to discuss something then why keep pushing on that topic, why push harder.  It's easy to point the finger as she has and claim she feels attacked but in 10 years she couldn't find any ways to change her behaviours to get along.  That's on her.  Speaking up for yourself, saying something is hurtful is not attacking, it's communication.  Mocking is attacking.

I agree that being able to see our own role is helpful.  Ultimately seeing where I went wrong also led me to seeing myself as human.  I was not intentionally hurtful, cruel, I did not insult however I can see how at times my reactions/behaviours may have been frustrating.  I can also see why I had those reactions.  What Happypants wrote is so true, we don't have to be perfect to be loved.  It's interesting to me that these family members who they themselves have flaws, look past those flaws but shine a spotlight on ours.  They demand some sort of perfection from us.  I have often felt worthless because they have ridiculed me and mocked me but not now.  Now I see in a more balanced way, I see everyone in the group has flaws, are imperfect and that really is ok.  I think by admitting my role in the dynamics was part of my way out, I was then able to think about how I wanted to react and be.  Being what I wanted in an authentic manner, in line with my own values and morals means that whatever path I take with my parents is ok because I am not acting out of hatred or anger but in self protection and in a way that benefits my self esteem.  Interestingly I am now more open with my genuine friends, I have removed the last couple of toxic acquaintances, I don't hide my failures, I don't whine about failures but I accept I'll have some wins and losses.  For far too long I felt I had to show an image of perfection otherwise I would be mocked and laughed at.  It is refreshing to be honest and open with caring friends and not have to put on that fake front.  Now I couldn't care less if my parents laugh at my failures.  I see that as their flaws, it says everything about them, not me.  I am finally starting to accept myself, flaws and all.

So yeah a dab of distance can be a wonderful thing, it can be very healing.

New and not so new:

Over the weekend I had a somewhat unexpected romp down memory lane - I was looking for an old email and came across quite a few others in a hidden folder I'd forgotten. Some had screenshots of text conversations with md, others were between me and a few close friends as they talked me off the ledge.

Y'all. We knew this but damn Ive been hard headed! Some incidents I'd completely forgotten, others have clearly been brought up repeatedly even since then, with her demanding "answers" that just don't exist, situations not of my making or even involving me that I somehow fix for her. She wondered why I didn't call, rarely visited. No consideration whatsoever that I had things going on in my own life. No recognition that the way she talked to me wasn't conducive to any kind of decent relationship.

There were repeated attempts to set aside time for us to actually sit down and talk, with her excuses of why "now isn't a good time." There never was, clearly.  She just wanted to attack and seemed to like having a convenient target. It all reminded me why I blocked her cell phone originally, with the hit and run texting then refusing to actually talk with me. I'd unblocked her because she kept pounding away at the blocked cell phone, and within months she fell right off into the same old garbage.

All that initiated another search - there were several cards from her around the same time frame where she'd text then leave voicemails, not return or respond to mine but sent a series of notecards instead. Those cards ranged from full on spite to "all is bright and bubbly" to accusations with no conceivable context. They were all dated and within just a few days of each other, no rhyme or reason as to what triggered the jumps in mood but they also stopped rather abruptly. [My brother had suggested in an email that I hold on to them because clearly she's not stable if she's flipping moods like that for no apparent reason!]

I deleted all those emails then emptied my trash folder so there's nothing to go back through again! BUT it's not painful. I'm not reeling from reading all that, more just disappointed in myself. So much of the damage was preventable if I'd been able to step back and away, and stay there.

You are doing it now. You deserve some credit for that. Put up a note to self somewhere you see it daily, that reminds  you to "step back and away, and stay there."

You're right, better now than not ever. This mode of thinking is what eventually sucked me back in - I really don't like it, that it comes down to no contact because there's just no reason and it's not safe on any level.  It's hard for me to grasp that there really is no redeeming good to it - I'm not an all or nothing person!
***
One of my emails to my brother was right after md was claiming elder abuse against him. He'd told me of an incident where she got all wound up and slapped him, then attempted to hit him with an umbrella etc. Her version was very watered down, but she did slip up and admit she'd hit him then he shoved her away from him and left. She was focused on her supposedly having bruises and someone had taken pictures of them [oddly enough, she never shared those pictures with any of her family but had shared with others?].

People were threatening to report my brother "if anything else happens" but I'm to this day not very clear what occurred in the first place. It sounded like her old methods of working herself up into a mad then lashing out at whoever is closest, that time someone happened to be right there for it. My email to him was a warning to not be alone with her - she can't be trusted to tell the truth and not paint herself as a victim of an attack even when SHE was in fact the attacker. I think it was around that time I actually stopped visiting her, he and I would later take her to lunch every great once in a while but that's it.

I don't and can't trust her. I know this, and it's sad.

Moglow - all so heartbreaking to think of you and your brother, siblings, going through this all of these years. I am here. Reading, Cheering you on and so grateful for how you have taken the ashes of this and used it to grow strong and to help all of us and I am sure so many who surround you and love you in your life.

Hey Bloomie - I appreciate the boost and kindness. Today it all feels like a failure, going no contact. MY failure somehow, that we can't have any kind of sustainable relationship just feels so wrong to me. I know it's not all on me and I've gone down every possible road to reach her, but still. I feel like a failure.

Rereading those old texts and emails [and many of my posts here over the years] really were a confirmation of the "rightness" and inevitability of my decision, in the big picture. I guess we get there when we get there but the journey through is HARD. I've been ridding my house of her too, put away a couple of pictures she was in, donated a large set of stainless flatware she gave me many years ago and replaced it with one I chose for myself. I just don't want the reminders of her around me every day, nothing she or anyone else can point to and see her. It may sound kind of petty but it's helping me build pockets of peace as I work through the emotional damage.

Ashes ... kinda feeling like a phoenix these days. Rebuilding from ashes!

FromTheSwamp recently wrote something in another thread which I thought was great. 

"The relationship they have with me now is a product of the way they have treated me".

I just wonder whose voice that is that says that it is your failure.  PD's love to blame us and we all too often accept the blame.  We do the best we can and if we have to move away it is for self protection and because we can't take any more.  That is not our failure.

The phoenix is rebirth, from ashes to rebirth. 

It's not weird or wrong to want to get rid of the things that remind you of her. As far as I'm concerned they may very well be imbued with her negative energy, but at the very least you're not getting warm fuzzy feelings when you look at them so what's the point? As years go by I've come to be of the opinion that space in my house in limited (especially since it's actually an RV) and so everything must have a place, and everything in that space had darn well better be something I actually like!

So you do what you need to! :bighug:

QuoteFromTheSwamp recently wrote something in another thread which I thought was great. 

"The relationship they have with me now is a product of the way they have treated me".

I just wonder whose voice that is that says that it is your failure.  PD's love to blame us and we all too often accept the blame.  We do the best we can and if we have to move away it is for self protection and because we can't take any more.  That is not our failure.

It's her voice, always has been. Any successes are to her credit because she's the mother. Her perception of failures are mine, as the child. She treats me badly? I earned it. Our sucky relationship? My fault, i failed her, ignored her, shut her out etc. Not  one whit of recognition of her own responsibility anywhere - Im to blame, never credited. Wow. Howd i get this far without seeing exactly that??

I believe it was Judge Judy that said "Any idiot can have kids, doesn't mean they should." I'm not sure I've got that quote right but I can't find the exact video. My point being, Moglow, that your M is terribly deluded about this whole "motherhood" thing.

I'm a mom. My job is to care for my children, not just their physical well-being, but their emotional and psychological development as well. (A large chunk of which means they need to know that I love them! And that I trust their instincts so they should too.) Seems your M failed on every single point! But she wants a trophy for having a couple of kids? Kids that she then mistreated for decades?  :no: Sorry parenting doesn't mean you get participation trophies. That does remind me of my MIL though, as I'm thinking about it. She has been firmly up on a seriously high pedestal for decades because she had two children. She seated herself on that pedestal with the help of FIL, and he has enabled that behavior to the point of absurdity. It's almost as though every time he SHOULD say something about her behaving badly or acting helpless, he just envisions her in labor all over again. I suppose your M has it in her mind that you all ought to hold her up on that high pedestal as well.

Time to shut her voice out. I know you're working on it, on the EMDR. Taking your time, taking it slow. That's good. There's a lot of pain and poorly healed scars to see to. :bighug:

You are successful, in spite of her. You are strong, in spite of her. You are worthy, in spite of her.

Truth: The woman should never have had a child, much less three more after the first. She was woefully unprepared and unwilling, only sought to blame others for life's inevitable potholes and detours.

Md indeed taught us how to treat her, made herself a victim of her own poor choices from way back and used everyone around her at to further that victimhood. If you werent with her 100%, youre against her and therefore the enemy. But you should worship her anyway ... Seated herself on that pedastal, indeed.

Deeeeep breath!

Wisdom from a brother today:
I was thinking about the summers we spent with Daddy growing up, how we'd go away for two months every year. I don't remember talking to md during that time, like we basically went off grid and she was magically not our parent and didn't exist until we had to do back to her house. Two full months of not talking to, hearing from your own children?? Who DOES that? So I asked if he remembers talking to her [he didn't either]. His response in a nutshell - if there were good things, I'd remember. If I have to struggle to find them maybe they weren't that good. God handed me a chance to forget and move on. So MOVE.

It feels wrong to have no good memories of her, no laughter or smiles. There's tension, cringing or blanks, no warmth or sweetness. I feel less deficient, knowing it's not just me. Still deficient, just less so.  :ninja:

Hi Moglow,

I am following your journey with much compassion. There is so much coming up for you right now, and so much I relate to as well. I even heard "I've closed a lot of doors in my life and this is just another one" - that "one door," btw, being me! Thanks Mom! So yes I get it. But I wanted to share with you how amazing you are and the work you're doing.

When you sent your note, I thought that was so amazing and huge, because you weren't engaging or closing doors or reactive in any way ... You were acting from such a place of integrity and self-ness. You were acting from a place of your own principles and how you want to move in the world. And you were able to breathe through knowing that how your message would be received was not only irrelevant to your decision, but not under your control (whether it's hope or resentment or fear or curiosity, that's all about control) ... Actually, what mom does about it is none of your business.

That's so powerful, and so it's normal and healing, I think, that you would experience some emotional aftershock. I mean, being aware and adult and all that is great, but this is your mom, okay? It's not like you're leaving a Google review. You're standing in your adult before your mother. Of course your inner little Moglow is going to appear beside you and have all kinds of feelings about it. That's okay.

I thought it was fascinating that your mom would drop you off at your dad's for two months at a time without word. Mine did that to me, too, and I never really thought about it. Wow, that is awful. Mine would go on vacation with stepdad and leave me with mean stepmom and absent alcoholic dad. What a @#$&!

Okay, but then it makes perfect sense that you would experience such anxiety after sending your note. Because even though you are moving and growing, your mom has proved herself perfectly capable of staying outside the door, and that must make little Moglow so anxious. What if mommy never comes back? What have I done? Is it my fault? I just wanted to tell her I was sorry.

:'(

I also think it's healing to grieve, and one of the hardest parts of the grief is moving through stuff, physical stuff, things. It's just so weird when the person associated with the stuff is still alive. But with every thing that is taken down or put away, there is now a space to create more of a beautiful healing haven for you. What would you have in that bookshelf, or wall space, or table top, that speaks to you and your warm, healing spirit?

My wish for you is that you are able to take all of those empty spaces and absences, and fill them with so much hope and peace and beauty and love that instead of a closed door to a cleaned out house, you sense that you have a happy cottage with flower boxes and trellises and bubbling fountains with birdbaths outside, where the sun shines through the windowpanes or rain dribbles on the sill, and you come and go as you please, and you and little Moglow feel safe and at home together.

Thx, Leonor! Your message was so warm and caring - such a shame when a parent can't be that, isn't it? I love the images you painted for me. Having my own hone finally, digging through and deciding what feels good to me, is such a big thing. I don't know that anyone's said anything to her about it or if it would register just how important it is - and none of that matters! I'm finally not being bounced around at other's whims or having to make do or get by, I can plan ahead and get what I need, get rid of what I don't. I get goofy excited about every little funny soft playful thing I bring in!

Little mo is a blank slate, to be honest. She was bullied and pushed aside and ridiculed until she had no idea who she was, she just wanted to be invisible and stay way under the radar. A kind soul suggested I get a picture of her, look at that happy hopeful little person and think of how adult mo would feel if she knew little mo was treated that way, how big mo would reassure her. I told him, what pics I have from back then are of a solemn unsmiling little one. Even mommie dearest had commented that I didnt smile in pictures. Ya THINK??? THAT mo wanted mother to go away and stay away but her one unrelenting fear was being separated from her brothers. That, she knew couldn't handle. She said and did everything she knew to keep them all together, and ultimately that's paid off. I still have real relationships, friendships really, with my brothers.

It's a much better day. A month out from not talking with md and every day is better.

A blank slate could be a good place to start.  You can built what you want.  Perhaps looking at that little Mo in those photo's not smiling you could give out compassion to your younger self.  Sometimes going back to that inner child can be very healing.

I relate to being pushed aside and ridiculed until wanting to be invisible and under the radar.  As an adult it is really hard to know exactly who I am now as in some ways I still feel like I am living under the radar.  I know I will have healed when I am living as myself and not afraid to just be me and speak freely.

It's a month out and probably still a lot of healing to be done however you have started and that's a great thing.  You have your brothers there with you.  You still have family to enjoy and love.  A blank slate is a clean slate.  You can now write or draw what you choose. 

This stuff is hard, Mo.
I flit back in and out of here when something tempts to to consider contacting one of them and then I see the pain and the anguish caused by maintaining contact - and I recall my counsellor's words of 'Well, it's not like they've tried to get in contact with you and nor did they make an effort while you were trying to keep that relationship going'.
I don't know how I feel about apologies to them.
I know that they've brought out the worst in me but I also feel like apologies are a waste of time when what I really want from my disordered FOO is accountability, validation and empathy.
I'm glad you've blocked her. And I understand why you've apologised.
I've seen some really fake and manipulative apologies come from various members of my family so I guess I fall into the category of, not apologising for my own bad behaviour because two decades later, I meant every damned word. I just wish that I'd said them two decades sooner and made the break earlier. What I said to my counsellor back when I went NC with mother's FOO still stands. 'I really don't like who I become in relationship to my mother's family.'
If someone brings out the absolute worst in you, despite every superhuman effort on your behalf to overcome that - I think it's really warranted to step right out of that arena and focus on the people who bring out the best in you.
Thinking of you.

Quote from: SandpiperIf someone brings out the absolute worst in you, despite every superhuman effort on your behalf to overcome that - I think it's really warranted to step right out of that arena and focus on the people who bring out the best in you.

THIS!!! I knew better and tried to ignore that ugliness way deep inside but I went there anyway. I believe it was all intentional on her part, she was driving for emotional response and was going to push until she got one, like some tit for tat, trading ugly for ugly. Maybe she was even demanding something she could "pay back" at some future point long after I'd supposedly forgotten it was ever said, as she's known for that too. I'd heard her "you don't CARE!!!!" comments over and over for years, like she was expecting something she wasn't getting from her nastiness.

It never occurred to her that she could go too far and that I'd refuse to participate further - or maybe it did, and that was her goal all along? That I'd finally blow and refuse to engage? Seeing that side of me come out was a clear sign I needed to GO. I don't want to become that person who heaps abuse and nastiness on others. It was HER coming out of me and I didn't like it. I want it OUT but not like that, dumped on another, not even her. I guess in some way it was me showing her: This is how that works. You say things you know are WAY out of line and you apologize for them. Not that I want her fauxpologies or more manipulations, as you mention, but it's me as the human being *I* want to be.

I just know that other than a few blips here and there, it's getting easier to just not be a part of her anymore. I don't like that this is what I have left, but I sure didn't like where I was headed for so long. So I'm learning to accept.

I came around to the idea that stepping back in to the family circus was about dealing with the dynamics which meant, Manure Fight at the Not OK corral.
I would walk away from the most minimal encounters with FOO feeling confused, angry, depressed, doubting myself, feeling self-destructive and largely being unable to pinpoint the 'why?' Of all those things.
As I've learned more about communication I've gotten better at identifying the range of their micro-aggressions and it is like monkeys flinging poo at each other and shrieking and pulling hair.
I have worked too hard to drag myself out of that psychological swamp to be comfortable stepping back into that.
While I was stalking uBPDsis's children on social media a few years ago I saw niece had posted something cheery and her brother had immediately climbed on with the patronising 'I see your tastes in X have finally matured.'
It made me feel physically ill that this once sweet little boy has gone through the family mincing machine and has learned to patronise, belittle and demean those around him.
It takes a conscious effort to pull yourself out of the quagmire of our families and that comment, and something that a cousin said to me when I ran into her, made me realise that my family is a bog, not a fog. And I will sink in it every time I try to wade in there thinking 'This time I am sure of my footing.'
Nup. There's always another Bog Monster waiting to suck you under.
I'm glad I found a T who recognised the behaviour early on in my life and she made me focus on my own behaviour and on learning to build healthy relationships with people who aren't Quagmirers.
It hurts to walk away from them but it hurts more to stay and then you have to deal with the hurt of the people who will never understand, because they've never been sucked under by the quicksands in our family's mental health problems.

QuoteManure Fight at the Not OK corral

Girl. And it's not firm manure either - It's the messy stuff that sticks and goes everywhere.

The GOOD news here, for the first time as adults my brothers and i appear to be on the same page. Youngest brother is several states away and detached from all of it years ago but also doesn't see her for who she is [he still sees "the mother" who must be honored and taken care of at no matter what cost to us]. Local brothers? They're right here with me. When I waver or doubt, they're both quick to provide reminders and/or shut down any consideration of "more" where she's concerned.

I didn't realize how much I needed this or what a difference it would make for me. And yeah, it would piss md right off if she knew. She was bad to blame "someone else" whenever any of us stood up to or shut her down, because of course none of us would do that on our own. My brothers are stronger, didn't cave into it as much as I did. Her problems with my brothers was placed firmly in my lap, even to her insisting that I fix it for her because of course I broke it. She doesn't even see that she never built anything - there's the presumption that as "the mother" she's due certain things and we're simply there to provide. Amazing how clear that looks now, having stepped away from it.

Yep.
It's exhausting, dealing with it.  :stars:

Update: I got a text from unknown number today, advising that it was md and she's "tried before." Im not sure what she thinks she tried or maybe had tried to text, was made aware she was blocked?

But no, no other message, nothing further. She's called from neighbor's phone before, wouldn't have thought she'd risk her text crap being seen by others.

But seriously??

Probably getting nervous that you haven't groveled your way back and Mother's Day is coming up. Best advice is do not engage. As WI would say, keep your arms and legs firmly in the shark cage. :sharkbait:

I honestly don't see the point, in any of it. You want to be mad? By all means be mad. Leave others to live their lives and you just go be mad. But no, she has to fishnet humanity and drag down with her.

I did exactly what I should not, I called her. She answered the second time. Snarling. I told her I got her message, asked if there's something I can do for her, anything she needed. She launched into her phone being blocked and she doesn't understand why. After she made it clear that not only am I to blame for her woes and health issues, she's not interested in anything I have to say?? I reminded her how things ended "SO?! What does that have to do with these games with the phone?" This, after *she* text *me*,  for nothing other than stir more spite ... She has no clue, doesn't want one gold plated and provided on a silver platter. She just wants to be mad.

[And no, she doesn't need anything from me! And hung up without another word.]

Shark cage reassembling. Lord deliver me from mother's day.

I'm at a complete loss here. Respond to contact that she's made and I'm harshly rebuffed, no indication why she reached out at all other than to spew her frustrations. Step away for my own [and hopefully her] peace, and THAT's an insult to her. Attempts to maintain any contact with her - however limited - are at best ignored or condemned as "wrong." And yet there's no peace, no kindness or warmth, much less common decency to be found with her. She remains angry whether or not there is any kind of contact, and somehow even after all these rounds of it, continues to question why we are where we are. Truly and honestly damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I'm not who I used to be, who she  trained me to be, and that is an ongoing insult to her. I changed her script and dared step out of my assigned role. I don't beg and plead for her attention or approval and have realized my life really does go on anyway. Md believes the world revolves around her and that everyone must perform per her everchanging and unvoiced expectations. She believes it is her due as The Mother, all evidence to the contrary.  There's no apparent middle ground anywhere to be found unless/until she decides otherwise.

It's so disheartening, all of it.

Right, let's weld up that shark cage, reinforce the joints, add a couple of padlocks. *sparks flying, hammering sounds, etc*  :tongue2:

Every time you engage with her, she's the only one that wins. Because she's the only one that gets what she wanted. One thing has been very consistent over time that I've noted. If she can reach you in any way, you feel like you have to reach back. She got around the block, so you called.

What I encourage you to do, is determine why. Are you still hoping she will change? Are you hoping that you will change enough that she can't hurt you? (She seems incredibly caustic even in the twisted realm of PDland, I don't believe even Job could have put up with this one, honey)

Take the time you need to reflect on these things. :bighug:

Quote from: moglow on May 03, 2022, 09:41:41 AM
I'm not who I used to be, who she  trained me to be, and that is an ongoing insult to her. I changed her script and dared step out of my assigned role. I don't beg and plead for her attention or approval and have realized my life really does go on anyway. Md believes the world revolves around her and that everyone must perform per her everchanging and unvoiced expectations.

I think this is the absolute heart of it. Anything other than absolute obedience is unacceptable. (The irony being that even when we ARE obedient they will almost always find fault with something.)

She will continue punishing you until you conform to her expectations.

QuoteWhat I encourage you to do, is determine why. Are you still hoping she will change? Are you hoping that you will change enough that she can't hurt you? (She seems incredibly caustic even in the twisted realm of PDland, I don't believe even Job could have put up with this one, honey)Take the time you need to reflect on these things.

Good questions - and I've asked myself the same,  believe me. Part of me wants peace [or at least silence] at any price. Part is sheer habit and limited force of will on my part. I was trained to answer even when I had none, to always respond in some way. Yes it was followed by mocking and ridicule because it was never the "right" or mandated response but I tried. That's ingrained in me still. I've changed in many ways but that part lingers on.

I guess at the root of it, I don't want to be the person she's made me out to be. I want to rise above the pettiness, point it out for what it is and move on. What she does with that isn't my stuff.

***
Yesterday I told her I'd like to set aside a time to talk about this situation between us, that i cant and wont go through all this with her again. Final confrontation, if you will. "What about now?" asked the good fairy, all bright and chipper. [One of her other personalities stepped in?] Apparently she'd vented her spleen and cleared her internal decks so she felt better for now. Um no. I was at lunch and didnt care to totally disrupt my work day.

Md immediately steps in and suggests we just put the past behind us and move on, that nothing is helped by bringing it up over and over, can we both agree to do that?? As if it's some novel idea she just thought of. Are you fucking kidding me?! How many times have i asked, begged that of her, to just stop? She sees me at the breaking point and NOW capitulation? I just went silent in stunned disbelief/ dismay at that point. Complete vapor lock on my part while I tried to find words.

The convenience of her timing doesn't escape me for a minute. There's a hook in this plan of hers, we know that - she wants something. I suppose she first imagines some special mothers day visit or lunch that hasn't been mentioned. It is after all coming up on her special day.  :roll: I don't believe for a minute it'll last or she could actually do any of what she suggests.

I deeply resent the rug sweeping bullshit and not.one.hint of remorse or an apology, not even for the way she talked to me less than 24hrs before. I don't trust her as far as I could throw her. I'd be happy if she's just GO, take all her crap with her. But now she's supposedly doing exactly what I asked for years... if i bring up the need for apologies, I'm again the horrible awful. Truth be told, I'm past that even. Apology or no, I'm numb and have nothing to build on with her. Its like 60 years of warfare, there's destruction, debris and landmines as far as the eye can see. :stars:

So. Interested to hear your take on this latest bs.

My gut, everything within me, wants to find courage to say simply: thanks but no thanks. I don't have it in me anymore and don't care to pretend for her or anyone else. I just want to be left alone.

Moglow - Your mother is beckoning you into a house of mirrors and a continuing atmosphere of gaslighting from where I sit on this side of the screen. I have been there and understand the trauma responses that can erode our ability to protect ourselves and see the most reliable way forward for us in profound ways.

I can only say that what I came to understand and accept with my own very disordered mother was that so much of what meant everything to me, what I sacrificed and anguished over, the wounds that I was attempting to bind up and heal from that had been inflicted without even a second thought, my own mother didn't even remember. Nothing that transpired between us ever changed her behavior toward me.

She was fundamentally incapable of loving others, most likely starting with herself. She was as grandiose as they came and not responsible to anyone for anything she ever said or did. Especially if it arose during an emotionally charged situation of her creation. She was energized by the drama and acrimony. She developed nothing but frenemy type relationships shifting from besties to cold stone emotional cut offs for the slightest perceived slight. She was cruel and broken and could shape shift on a dime. And she was beautiful and funny, interesting and talented. Larger than life conquering the world one minute, broken and out of control mess of a person the next. Being in relationship with my mother was a total mind/emotional/spiritual abyss of confusion and for a sensitive soul like me it was toxic.  :stars:

All of this to say with full confession... I was never able to go fully NC with my mom, in part because she disappeared within herself with debilitating mental illness and died fairly young so I was just really stepping into recovery and Out of the FOG at the time she grew ill.

But, knowing what I know now, seeing the healing that began so much more quickly when I was no longer living with the  specter of my own md over my life...for your own mental and emotional health could you step away for even 3 or 6 months and determine to not communicate with her and give yourself a break? A real break. Just to work through what could be trauma induced picking up the phone and responding to someone who is making your life miserable when everything in your body is screaming NO!!

This just broke my heart when I read it:

Quote from: MoglowMy gut, everything within me, wants to find courage to say simply: thanks but no thanks. I don't have it in me anymore and don't care to pretend for her or anyone else. I just want to be left alone.

You have the right to live in peace and step firmly away from emotional neglect and abuse. I hope you will. You are a beautiful and loving soul who deserves time and space to heal. Hugs from another daughter!!

Have mercy, Bloomie, if that wasn't exactly what I needed this morning! I wish I'd talked to y'all about this yesterday, my mind was just spinning and I couldn't even grasp it all.

QuoteYour mother is beckoning you into a house of mirrors and a continuing atmosphere of gaslighting from where I sit on this side of the screen. I have been there and understand the trauma responses that can erode our ability to protect ourselves and see the most reliable way forward for us in profound ways.

I can only say that what I came to understand and accept with my own very disordered mother was that so much of what meant everything to me, what I sacrificed and anguished over, the wounds that I was attempting to bind up and heal from that had been inflicted without even a second thought, my own mother didn't even remember. Nothing that transpired between us ever changed her behavior toward me.

She was fundamentally incapable of loving others, most likely starting with herself. She was as grandiose as they came and not responsible to anyone for anything she ever said or did. Especially if it arose during an emotionally charged situation of her creation. She was energized by the drama and acrimony. She developed nothing but frenemy type relationships shifting from besties to cold stone emotional cut offs for the slightest perceived slight. She was cruel and broken and could shape shift on a dime. And she was beautiful and funny, interesting and talented. Larger than life conquering the world one minute, broken and out of control mess of a person the next. Being in relationship with my mother was a total mind/emotional/spiritual abyss of confusion and for a sensitive soul like me it was toxic.

Absolute lack of recall with md too, to hear her tell it - no recollection of or remorse for anything she'd said or done, repeatedly. What I didn't say in my earlier post, on the heels of her "we BOTH need to put the past behind us and stop bringing it up" mini speech when I was trying to balance my brain, I made some comment about how I'd asked just that for years, that she leave it be and stop dredging it up. Her *immediate* response was "but YOU always bring it up!" No. I've stepped in to answer her ridiculous and unanswerable questions or comment that it wasn't mine TO answer, tried to explain myself, but bring it up with her, fling it back in her face as I've experienced so many times? No.

My internal conflict is in not wanting to inflict what I see as harm to others whoever they may be, however superficial or how much they may have "earned" it. I've met the good fairy before and she never lasts long. She doesn't have it in her. We went a round just after the first of the year over stupidity and foolishness, her claiming "just when I thought everything was going to be okay." All evidence to the contrary and based on the air and moonbeams in her head. I'll just have to rip that bandaid off - and I'm sure opportunity will present sooner rather than later.

But again, thank you. I needed the clarification. And I appreciate you sharing how things ended with yours, I had wondered. The similarities are eery - from this side of the screen I see it as a blessing that yours exited some time ago. I truly wonder what the lesson is in all this for me.

Protect yourself, Moglow. :bighug: You deserve to be treated just as well as you treat everyone else, and you deserve to treat yourself just as well as you treat others. And honestly, from what I gather here, you seem like a pretty awesome person!

Back atcha, Andeza!! I know sooner rather than later it'll be "Yep. There she is, right on schedule." Wondering if we should take bets, I'm guessing bare minimum early next week once her post-mothers day disappointments kick in. Fathers Day isn't long after that and the jealousy [because she's aware I miss and mourn both Daddy and Dad] will eat her alive anyway.

I'm fairly sure I'm doing my grieving now and won't miss her later. You can't miss what you never had, right?

Actually I do think you can miss what you never had. Especially when you see other people having it. So it does hurt. And it's okay to hurt. I even think it's okay to keep hurting at reminders, not nonstop and not severe, just a little pang, a twinge, a sigh at what could have been. Followed by a mental "Oh well" and dust yourself off and on we go. But that's me. :bigwink:

Bets? I'm betting about three to five days before Father's Day she'll figure out some way to reach you. Maybe a candygram... I'm betting you get the silent treatment from her from now till then, and if you DO talk to her around Father's Day, she'll blow you up for not doing anything for Mother's Day. Hard pass for me. I don't send mine anything. No cards, no texts, no third party well-wishes, etc. The family members I do talk to are extremely careful not to mention her, of their own volition. I only know she's still kicking because she randomly likes my cousins' posts on facebook (aka fakebook because who's actually real on there? :roll:)

QuoteActually I do think you can miss what you never had. Especially when you see other people having it. So it does hurt. And it's okay to hurt. I even think it's okay to keep hurting at reminders, not nonstop and not severe, just a little pang, a twinge, a sigh at what could have been. Followed by a mental "Oh well" and dust yourself off and on we go. But that's me. (https://outofthefog.net/forum/Smileys/default/bigwink.gif)

Yeah. This week I'm driving that struggle bus, tbh. The whole "mom's the greatest and I'm so lucky to have her and I love love LOVE her!!" every where I go, is hard to swallow.

Yeaaaahh.... now's a good time to not watch TV or listen to the radio for a week or so...  :ninja:

When my husband and I see happy, functional families (at least in appearance), we both often remark, "I can't even imagine what that's like?"

 :yeahthat:   My last visit with youngest brother and family, I was in tears at times just being with them. They saw to it that I was included, it wasn't that, but the true care and laughter in every situation just floored me. If someone was tired or frustrated, they worked through it or adjusted plans and kept going. The world didn't fall apart and nobody was shamed for feeling/not feeling xyz. So much acceptance and love there, something I've never known.

I called md Sunday, knowing it would eat me alive if I didn't at least try. Actually I text her then called several hours later. Predictable as the sun coming up in the morning, she says she didnt get my texts, got all defensive and hot under the collar then started in again about me needing to get my phone checked because she doesn't get my texts.  :roll: When I told her we weren't going into all that again, suddenly she had to go: "someone's just come in." Cut me off, on mothers day - call total 2:19 min.

To me it takes little effort to at least pretend interest, listen for a moment, look at what's in front instead of stressing herself and everyone else over the far distant and unchangeable past. Had anyone actually come in, it's easy enough to connect the dots and she's on the phone with one of her children. She's somehow cast herself as a victim, and my call didn't fit the script. Heck, maybe I derailed that whole fantasy and she was actually disappointed that I called? It's one of those times I'd kinda like to know what was going on in her mind, how she can't see herself as the common denominator of it all.

I didn't see the funny until hours later, how truly predictable and pathetic it's all been, me trying to jump her imaginary hurdles and hoops of fire - when none of it mattered to her at all. The shit I put myself through "trying to do the right thing" all my life. I stressed myself over what? Not a damn thing. She's truly not that interested unless there's a fight involved, and all my fight here is gone.

Quote from: moglow on May 10, 2022, 09:35:31 AM
how truly predictable and pathetic it's all been, me trying to jump her imaginary hurdles and hoops of fire - when none of it mattered to her at all. The shit I put myself through "trying to do the right thing" all my life. I stressed myself over what? Not a damn thing. She's truly not that interested unless there's a fight involved, and all my fight here is gone.

This is pure truth and wisdom. I'm glad you see it moglow. I wish I would have seen it decades ago, it would have saved me bucket-loads of anxiety. They really aren't interested unless there's a fight, or in my mother's case ... big gossip or chaos to be had. Pathetic is right.

The big gossip and chaos are there too, she just doesn't have sources for either right now. I'm sorry you know this too, Sunny.

moglow - I have a sneaking suspicion that if we could see/know what they were thinking... :blink: things like your mother's behaviors still wouldn't make any sense to us.

Honestly, with my own md and inlaw md, I don't think they understood/understand themselves and their own motivations which seem to shift with the winds. Zero reasonably healthy and others focused consistent patterns of behavior with each. Depth of a teaspoon in general with both of them.

You did what was right for you. What you needed to do to rest easy with yourself. I so get that and often choose the same for my own self. And you have further validation with the phone games.  :stars:

Md's complete denial of personal responsibility in any situation that casts a less than flattering light on her is mind-blowing. It's as if she blinks [blanks?] and that's over, we need to put it in the past OR you get denial that anything was said/done by her at all. Total disregard on her assertion just days before that we needed to leave the past in the past, and there she was Sunday dredging it all back up to no apparent purpose. Then a convenient visitor as a cherry on top, as if THAT happened.

It's seems like she keeps trying to insert another piece from a different puzzle entirely, shoving it in there sidways to fill a space and make her choices make sense in the big picture. She truly doesn't see anyone or anything outside herself and her inner dialogue, assumes everyone is in it with her and gets very defensive when shown that's not the case at all. She invented it so it must be true and everyone must accept as truth.

***
Anyhoo, youngest brother and family are planning ahead and will be coming over for several days at end of summer. She's already told him she hopes her house is in order by then [they're not even suggesting staying with her, they're getting air bnb near the coast/me]. This is the same brother she told three years ago "now's not a good time" and claimed issues with her house when he last planned a trip over. He offered several suggestions but no, not a good time. At that time she'd not seen him in over 10 years, didn't see how insulting and hurtful that was. Far as I know nothing has changed with her house whatsoever, and my best guess is it's worse now than it was then. But yeah. She's got plenty of time to spin this into a big fat imaginary drama. Me, I've already told them to pencil me in for a porch swing or bunk bed for the duration - I'll be bartender when they return from visit to her house! :bigwink:

I'm beginning to think that certain pwPD, particularly malignant types like Moglow's md for example, live in a time warp. I think that outside of these conflicts, time doesn't exist for them. They are on complete autopilot, disassociated, not aware of the passage of days, weeks, months, years!!! beyond the simple fact of "In February, I had a fight with so-and-so. In March, I had a fight with son. In April, I had a fight with daughter." And that's it. They've only got hours of their life to look back on, and that's all that gets committed to memory, that and the fuel for such "fights."

I don't know. It's a very twisted, backwards way to live life. To live for the conflict. To put people down nonstop and expect them to put up with that crap because Family, Blood, etc.

Andeza I believe you have something there. We've compared notes and have a general clue how the cycle runs, we're just never sure what exactly will trigger them. We used to do the walking on eggshells until we realized that served no one. When she's determined to be angry, she finds or invents a mad if necessary. More often than not, she pulls from the far distant past now [because she has nothing recent to work with?] and try to rehash. No earlier conversations or resolution is acceptable, and she's even said a number of times "but last time i asked you about this you said xyz, now you're saying abc!!!" Because it's not important and I answered you years ago. I'm on sheer guesswork and hopeful memory at this point, can only assume where that whole nightmare went sideways. But Idea: stop asking the same questions and trying to get a different answer. I'm gonna start making shit up just because I can!

We have also noticed that she leaps off into something with little background and no segue - she'll just launch off into a tirade and we have no clue what she's talking about. It has come out a few times that it's some long ago and far away that she's replaying in her mind, our call apparently interrupted her mid battle and it's as if we were there for all of it.

Resolved: there's no safe place with that woman, not if you have a heart or feelings at all. Everything is a potential landmine and everyone a possible target. Body armor required.

Looking forward to hearing her attempts and excuses to worm her way out of this year's family gathering - guarandamntee she tries pinning it on me, that we've not "resolved things" or some such.  :roll:   I give a flying flip. I'm still going to be there and she can make her own decisions, same as the last few times I've been with them. The last several times I've visited brother's, she was livid that I didn't clear it with her first and wouldn't talk to me when I returned. Um OKAY!

You didn't clear it with her? Oh the shame of a GROWN woman not asking her elderly mother for permission to visit her own family. tsk tsk /extreme sarcasm of course :sly:

But you just reminded me. Prior to going no contact we were at a family gathering and I started discussing the Harry Potter books with my Gma, who is a huge fan. uBPDm overheard and bursts out "I don't know how I feel about you reading those!" I wasn't allowed to as a young adult at home because magic :roll: To which I replied "Well, I'm an adult so... you don't get a vote anymore, mom." Left her gobsmacked and nobody said a darn thing. I think Gma may have chuckled. Point bein' ... They never accept that we're grown and get to make our own choices.

Right?! I mean the audacity and disrespect of it all! It honestly never occurred to me to say anything, any more than with any other trips I've taken over the years. If you're not interested in my life, that's okay, I can still carry on. I'd tried sharing others with her, telling her where I'd been, what I'd done. No interest whatsoever.

It's like she was somehow embarrassed that I'd not told her, like I had something to hide and literally hid it from her. Um no - I had an invitation and accepted it, made my plans, packed my happy ass up and drove 10+ hours to get there. And I LOVED it! She implied later that I'd "told them things" about her, somehow influencing them against her. No concept that it had nothing to do with her whatsoever.

The HP discussion came up with md too - it's one of the bonds with me and my nieces, who's in what house and random HP references sprinkled in conversation. Not that she's seen any of them in years, but md brought it up repeatedly like she still gets to pick and choose my reading material, saying I shouldn't encourage the kids. Seeing her as Voldemort in my mind would be lost on her but that's okay! [A friend nearby has a similar mother and her husb's mother, so we've talked about the correlations between Harry's story and ours. I admitted to her not long ago that on bad days I've been known to have the movies on rotation as a comfort kind of thing. The friendships, triumph of good over evil, the muggleborns feeling cast aside and adrift until they get their hogwarts letter then finding their true families and community, looking out for each other come what may - it fills that emptiness inside for me. Turns out my friend does that too!]

Slightly off-topic, but I found growing up that the fantasy and sci-fi genres were infinitely more interesting to me than real world fiction. As I aged I began to understand it was because I could escape in those stories to those far different places and experience life in a way I could not do in reality. I didn't get to do the things I expressed interest in, they were all shot down for various pd-type reasons. Then to be followed by a suggestion to do other activity like "Why don't you try basketball? You could be a member of the team, play, have fun!" ...  :blink: I was an extremely short introvert with depth perception related fears (possibly autistic as a bonus). It was literally the worst possible idea. So my books were my refuge. My happy world of retreat.

As far as mom knew, it kept me quiet and out of her hair and that was all that mattered.

I'm glad you go places and find ways to enjoy life, moglow! :bighug:

I take a lot of comfort from the Harry Potter stories too xxx

I'm seeing more of that, Sandpiper. Even as dark as they get towards the end, there's a lot of goodness to be found. [I'm actually thinking md is more of a dementor, sucking all the joy and happiness out of everything and everyone...]

Quote... So my books were my refuge. My happy world of retreat.

As far as mom knew, it kept me quiet and out of her hair and that was all that mattered.

Andeza, here too - I escaped [still do] every chance I get. Problem was, mine seemed to see it as some sort of threat. She didn't want anything to do with me but disliked when I was content elsewhere. I remember an insistence that I not "hide away" in my room and her critiquing whatever I chose to read. Even when I was older and she'd visit, evenings the television would be on to her preferred programs with her non-stop nonsensical ramble until I gave up and went to bed. Reading? Forget it. I was being rude by not participating in the "conversation," and she'd snark about my chosen reading material when my books were laying around.

Yep! "I'm lonely! Is that book more interesting than me?"  :unsure: Well.... YES! Not that I could say that.

I'm so sorry to read this Moglow. That is too much for anyone to handle. Survivors go in and out of no contact for good reason, and I don't think there's one of us who did it because it was easy. Keep standing tall as you are...

My mother hated me reading. "Always reading." She'd moan.  Reading and public libraries made a lot of my childhood bearable.  I read to my son from when he was tiny. He just completed a Masters degree in Creative Writing so you can imagine how proud I am. Because he's a nice boy he has invited his grandmother to his graduation ceremony. I am so going to have to hold my tongue!

Big hugs Moglow, and all us adult children of bloody awful parents. ❤️

Yep the dementors were a wonderful creation by JKR.
I don't know how I would have gotten through my childhood without books.
My stepmother used to do periodic clean-outs of my favourites and would give them away to mothers at the school saying I'd outgrown them and then she took satisfaction when I would say 'But that is one of my favourite books and I didn't agree to parting with that,' by telling her targets that I was a capricious little liar.
I figured out the best way to deal with that was to stop asking family to buy me books for BDs & Xmas and I became a heavy user of the school and public library system. Those things she didn't dare to 'disappear' and by then I think the primary school was onto her game, anyway.
These personalities are just so damaged and so damaging, Mo.
My advice to you would be to try to let go of the idea that you have anything to apologise for.
The only reason you may be disappointed in your own behaviour is because she's wilfully provoked you with hers.

I went through a similar angst with my sister, after I lost my temper with her and yelled at her. But when I examined it afterwards, I realised that she'd been following a consistent pattern of learned behaviour that she'd picked up from our mother, which is the game of 'Poke The Bear'.
I came to the realisation that by yelling at her, and having finally cracked, after 20 years of bearing with some really foul behaviour from her, I'd given her exactly what she wanted because it means that EnSis can sit back forever after and point at me and say to anyone who is interested and many who are not 'See, I have been telling you for years that Piper is the problem.'

If I try to snatch that hard-won prize from her by apologising, she won't be pleased, and it will just reset the game of 'Poke the Bear' back to a point where she needs to set up another situation where the passive aggression will push me to overheat and we'll be back at square one.

So I'm going to let EnSis have that one.
I've distanced myself from the flying monkeys who will push those buttons in her absence, but my fall-back response for anyone that wants to guilt me for that is ''No arguments from me, everything they say about me is absolutely correct.'
That response has confused and embarrassed a number of people who have learned from that to shut the hell up & butt out.

It's tough.
Of course we want to apologise when we've lost our temper, been abrupt, or we feel like we've let our own standards down. The thing is - apologising to the PD is just throwing petrol on the fire because an apology isn't going to help. They aren't going to reflect on their own behaviour or the reasons why you'd protest theirs. They'll never be motivated to gain insight into their role in accelerating the conflict and sometimes, I think, the only thing you can do is to step back and learn that there's no putting those fires out because whatever you do, it's just going to fan or fuel the flames.

Therein lies the rub,  Sandpiper - I did it because of who I am and to reinforce who I want most to be. I'm not her, will never allow myself to become her. Somehow in spite of her efforts, she really didnt grind me all the way down! I know right from wrong, and practice it regularly.


She did provoke me and I allowed it. Looking at it later I realized she had some goal, can only imagine that was it, to push until she got an emotional response from me. Maybe after all, I'd perfected gray rock and medium chill and that she couldnt abide. She demanded a fight and ugliness. I require the opposite.

Today's a better day. Every day without her is a better day really. Telling, isn't it.

Yep.
Truly, I think they just create drama because it distracts from the pain of their own internal climate. They aren't able to sit with their feelings and process them & deal with them without generating drama.
I keep reminding myself of a question that our group T asked us to consider, many years ago, 'What would you be doing with your life if this person was magically, overnight, suddenly all better and there was no need for you to fix/help/resolve any of this?' And then her advice 'Change your behaviour to focus on that, this way it puts all the responsibility back on the disordered person to fix/help/resolve whatever problem they've created.'
As we know too well, our disordered FOO are fire-starters and if we put one fire out, they'll just light up another.
My decision to go NC was to just let them burn down the house, the bridges and the forests and to go far, far away, in terms of creating emotional distance.
I really don't think they're capable of doing any of it differently, but we are. And I don't want my FOO to take that away from me.
I'm grateful for the peace that I've got with NC.
I wish that an alternative was possible, but there's no peace to be had with people who are intent on starting fires & pushing buttons.

Quote from: sandpiper on May 30, 2022, 04:41:15 PM
I keep reminding myself of a question that our group T asked us to consider, many years ago, 'What would you be doing with your life if this person was magically, overnight, suddenly all better and there was no need for you to fix/help/resolve any of this?' And then her advice 'Change your behaviour to focus on that, this way it puts all the responsibility back on the disordered person to fix/help/resolve whatever problem they've created.'

What fantastic advice! Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you've found peace with NC.

Quote from: sandpiperMy decision to go NC was to just let them burn down the house, the bridges and the forests and to go far, far away, in terms of creating emotional distance.
I really don't think they're capable of doing any of it differently, but we are. And I don't want my FOO to take that away from me.
I'm grateful for the peace that I've got with NC.

It's a hard-won peace, isnt it? Putting all the decades of drama back where they belong is a process, one I'm glad to step away from. It seems unimaginable that she's okay with this, the silence. The distance she created. 

I think of the wasted time, all the times I asked her to talk about it, get it out, only to be blasted with more poison and her snarling that I should somehow know what's going on with her and fix it all. No accountability whatsoever. I honestly thought there was a bottom to it but she showed that's not the case either.

Her only attempts at contact for years now were to blast me for things she either invented or that simply aren't mine to address on any level. Phone call after call where she went off on angry tangents instead of refocusing on any attempt at actual conversation with me. It honestly didn't occur to her that we build relationships through shared experiences and conversation. She talked AT people and dug deep into any drama she could create. And Lord have mercy, the rages. The repeated attacks on any and everything I said - or didn't say.

If she were suddenly magically all better, given where we've been? I'd still be gone. I don't trust or like her, don't care to pretend any longer for her or anyone else. I could maintain polite behavior to be around her on a limited basis when necessary, but only that.

Hi Moglow,

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's agonizing.

You know, there's all this talk about mirroring in child development. That kids look to their moms as their mirror: Am I ok? Is this safe? What am I feeling?And then the mother, drawing upon her inner stability, reflects back: You are ok. It are safe. You are feeling ... And so on.

But if there is no inner stability, mom has nothing to draw from. Nothing to reflect back to her child. She doesn't know if she's ok. She doesn't know if she's safe. She doesn't know what she's feeling. So she starts reflecting everyone else: this is how people act at a party. This is how people define success. This is how everyone should treat their mother, and so on.

Of course it's toxically self absorbed, but it's only because there is this void where her self should be. I think that's why narcissists can be so charming: "charming" is about attunement: What does this person like? What makes him or her tick? What can I say or do that would make him or her say or do ... ?

But they're not perfect at it, and you can tell when they slip up. They misread someone, or they're not sure what the other person wants, or there are two people to charm and they aren't sure which one is the most powerful. Then the opinion changes in a flash, or the faux pas gets brushed off as a joke (or a quote from someone else!), or the person who was the center of their attention gets elided from the conversation in order to focus on the new arrival.

To a child, the charm can look like empathy, even love. After all, you are the center of her world. You are the focus of her attention. Plus she's telling you all the time what a wonderful mother she is! You don't know that the center should hold for more than 20 minutes at a time. You don't know that you're not actually supposed to be in competition with your siblings or her new date or the family pet. You're 18 months old. What else are you going to believe, but what she tells you?

So mom seems attuned to us, and we keep expecting the warmth, the self, the bond of empathy. But you need a self to be empathetic, you need a self to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Our moms can't do that. They don't have a self. Their self was hollowed out or smashed to bits or raided and held hostage decades before we were even born.

The unholy unfair tragedy of it all is that it's not about us, it was never about us. It's not about doing what mom wants us to do or saying what she wants to hear or planning a trip she'll enjoy. She doesn't know what she wants. It doesn't make a difference what we do. Everything in her existence is about being in a state of panic and void that is either intolerable or excruciating.

And because you are a loving, empathetic person in spite of it all, you want to connect with her. You want to figure it out with her, for her. You want her to be, if not the mom you've always dreamed of, at least the mom you can call once a month or send a card to on mother's day. That's like folding a card into a paper airplane and tossing it into a tornado. It might land where you hoped, but it's an off chance that it's anything but a coincidence.

You know what that is? It's sad. So, so sad for you. So sad for little Moglow, who adores her mommy and loves her mommy and doesn't feel like anything in the world is real or right or safe without her mommy, and mommy is not there. It's good and fine for adult Moglow to be angry and frustrated and intellectualize about all of this. That is healing. That is considering the situation from an adult point of view, with big words like "personality disordered." But little Moglow is in such sadness, such heartache. She doesn't care that someone has a fersonalidyorbered. She just wants her Mommy.

So  :grouphug: to little Moglow, today and every day.