NC, protecting self from abuse vs. holding a grudge

[WomanInterrupted]

If somebody is furious because you're implementing reasonable boundaries any normal human being would respect without question, the problem isn't with you.  It's with *her* - and  there's really no chance for any sort of relationship, IME. 

A relationship is a two-way street of back and forth, give and take.    Her version of a "relationship" is one-sided, with her barking all the orders and doing all the taking, while you give and give and give and give - and it's *still* not enough, you're holding out or holding back because no matter what you do or say, she's not happy. 

She's *never* going to be happy.  It's important you realize it.  Nothing will make her happy for more than 5 minutes, before she finds fault with it and demands another thing to make her happy - that she'll also find fault with after 5 minutes, with the bonus of expecting you to apologize and grovel for getting it wrong and not being able to read her mind! 

It never ends - she's a black hole of emptiness and need, and expects *others* to fill that void inside her, when it's just not possible.

It's just easier for your mom to blame everybody on earth - she doesn't have it in her to be accountable for anything - even her own moods.  Somebody "made" her do or say X or Y, so she's not responsible for THAT.   

Your dad may insist  she'll never apologize and that's just how she is, but it doesn't mean you have to just go along and put up with it, because that's not how YOU are. 

You expect - and deserve common courtesy, respect and civility - like we all do.  That's all we want; to be treated with the respect and courtesy we reserve for others.  We just want to be seen, heard and listened to.  We want to be appreciated for who we are - not what we DO for others or how *useful* we can be to them.

Your mom is never going to be able to do that, and she's lost a lot of people along the way because of it - you're just the latest casualty in a long line of people who had enough and walked away.

The same thing happened to unBPD  Didi - through her inability to see beyond herself, she lost me for good.  I walked away.  I stopped *caring* about her manufactured dramas and never-ending crises.  They were hers, and hers alone - but she never accepted that, thinking she was OWED something dazzling, amazing or special  - some unknowable, intangible THING that would fix or solve everything. 

That was how she died - thinking she was OWED and she'd been cheated and robbed, when she'd been nothing but *wonderful* to all those around her - especially me, her favorite scapegoat. 

You can't change that thinking - but you can change yours and realize there's nothing left to do or say. 

Your mom will live the rest of her life wallowing in a rage that simmers beneath the surface  - just like Didi.  There's nothing you can do about that except leave her to it, while you move beyond and *thrive.* 

PS - Didi liked to blame things on menopause, too, and did for *over* 30 years!   

[Sidney37]

WI
I totally agree.  It's her problem.  She's never going to be happy. I've accepted it.  Now that I get the forgiveness vs. reconciliation difference, I'm in a totally different place.  I am in a much better place than I was in April and May when I started posting here again.  Thanks to all of you, books, videos, time and space.  My marriage is better.   My relationship with my kids is better.  I'm less frustrated all of the time and generally happier. 

I still hear that nagging voice in my head that I need to rid myself of.  That's the current sticking point.  I thought I had misplaced my drivers' license the other day.  I heard her voice in my head saying what she would have said if she was standing next to me.  In person, she does this with my dad and me about nearly everything.

Why was it out of your wallet to begin with? 
Why didn't you put it back like you are supposed to?
I always put my license back.
Why did you just toss it in your purse? 
If your purse wasn't such a mess, you'd know where it was.
You should know better than to toss it in there.
I'd never do that.
No wonder you loose things.  You are so disorganized.
Well it's your fault you lost it.  If you had put it back that never would have happened.
I guess you are going to have to sit at the DMV all day.  Too bad for you!  I hope you don't miss anything important when you are there.


In the end it was next to my computer, right where I was last using it, but I just can't get that voice to go away.  I hear it all the time.  I end up mad at myself for things that other people do in the normal course of the day, because I hear her constant string of criticisms. 

I'm sure that will go away in time, too. I'm just glad I'm in a better place than I was.

[WomanInterrupted]

I remember trying to get that soundtrack out of my head  and intentionally going over and *re-writing* everything by either answering Didi back or telling her to shut up, because she's not helping. 

Did you notice that soundtrack is *heavy* on blame and offers *nothing* to solve the problem, and the smaller the problem, the larger the amount of blame portioned out to you? 

There was a time I'd have pretty much the same thing, going in my head, about the license.

Now?

Okay - it was here and I didn't leave the house without it.  This isn't the end of the world.  I just have to backtrack my steps - wait.  I had it at the computer - there it   is!   I'll just pop that back where it goes...yay, brain!   

I've also erased that bit that used to call myself stupid, idiot, dumbass, shit-for-brains, can't remember shit, forgetful, lazy, stupid, and SELFISH. 

When you start  allowing yourself to think, "I forgot to shut the drapes...oh well...I'll just go take care of it..."  and NOT, "Dumbass!  You forgot to shut the drapes, you fucking idiot!" -  you'll be a lot *kinder* to not only yourself, but *others.* 

Yeah - those nasty little criticisms  we think about others start to melt away, too, and instead of thinking your kids are lazy slobs for not cleaning their rooms, you shrug it off and think, "They're kids.  That's what they do.  It's not the end of the world.  I'll ask them to tidy up in the morning.  They'll survive until then." 

You become LESS critical and more accepting that shit happens and you deal with it.  Life goes on. 

Another thing to re-write is  "You DESERVE all the bad shit that comes your way because you went NC/your mother is sitting over there, suffering and miserable, old and alone and that's *all your fault!*" 

That's.  NOT.  TRUE. 

So, you wake up and bark your shin, first thing, the toast is burnt, you go out and have a flat tire, and that nasty little voice says, "You deserve it!  ALL of it!  AND WORSE!" 

NO! 

Again - shit happens!  We deal with it.   

You dust off the barked shin, either eat the toast as-is, scrape it, bin it, or give it to somebody else who might want it (or the dog), and change the tire or call Triple A (or ask your DH to do it) - or call a cab, if you're running late. 

NONE of that involves The Nasties Which Solve Nothing and only BLAME.

Another part  to work on is, "You don't deserve nice things!  You don't take care of them!  That wouldn't have happened if you'd been more careful!" 

Have you ever fallen into the Futility Trap?  We have, and you don't want to do that - it's when the car gets old - REALLY old - and you keep buying parts for it, which are increasingly expensive and happening with more and more frequency because that soundtrack is telling you that you CAN AND SHOULD take care of your things, instead of saying, "Okay - this car has outlived its  usefulness and I'm not putting another dime into it.  Time to trade it in." 

With the Futility Trap is, "I CAN'T get rid of it!  I just sank $600 into it!" 

Once you straighten out your thinking, you realize, "And that's more than a car payment.  What's going to happen next month?  Or the month after THAT?  Nope - time to trade in Ol' Bessie for something reliable and affordable." 

This can apply to anything you've kept *long* after its outlived its usefulness, or is broken and needs repair, and you just don't want to  fix it, or don't have time  - or is old and knackered, like furniture and clothing.

Get rid of the stuff, and make your life easier. 

Another part of that is  the nasty voice that says, "I wish I had the money for a new car/vacation/item!" 

Say to yourself, "I deserve nice things.  I've earned them.  If I want to buy a new car, and have the means to do it, I will.  If I want to buy those jeans, I'll buy them.   If we want to take a vacation, that's our business and nobody else's."   

If you work on - WORK ON - replacing her negatives with your *positives* - they'll come naturally to you, a lot sooner than you think, and one day, you'll think something positive, then remember what your mom would say, roll your eyes and think, "Man!  I'm glad I don't do THAT anymore!" 

I'm sure there are more, but those are just what come to mind - and it's *worth it* to replace her negatives with your own positive spin and lighter take on life.

I'm a much happier person  than I ever imagined, and less apt to fly off the handle about stuff, which my DH greatly appreciates  - and he's less apt to fly off the handle, too, which I appreciate!   

[NotFooled]

I thought the Boundaries Book by Townsend was a really big help to DH and myself.  It's from a Christian perspective.  DH's family is very religious and I think he had issues with setting clear boundaries because he was raised to belief that was unchristian.  This book really helped him. 

[illogical]

...I just don't want to see her or hear her voice.  I want to protect myself from the verbal abuse.

I still don't like the feeling that the "other shoe is going to drop", because I know that that she can't go without holding a grudge.  I hate not knowing how she'll try to get at me next.  I don'l like being caught by surprise.

None of us have a crystal ball and can predict your mother's next action, but N/BPDs do have some continuity to their actions.  As is often said on this website, "They play by the book."  It was helpful for me to study N and especially their cognitive dissonance-- specifically black and white thinking-- but all of the ways they distort a "normal" perspective.

You know your mother better than any of us, but from what you've posted about her, I don't think she is going to fade quietly away.  Some possible scenarios--

*She sends in your dad again to gather more info as to what is going on with you.
*She has a real/fake medical emergency and "summons" you to the hospital (or gets FM dad to do this).
*She continues to ply your daughter with gifts and talk to her via phone, hoping to brainwash her to her point of view and paint you the "bad" daughter who is responsible for your dad's mental state.
*She tries to wear you down by continuing the FM attacks via your extended family relatives and acquaintances.
*She continues to play THE VICTIM in all of this, telling anyone and everyone who will listen that "My daughter done done me wrong" 
*After a couple more months of attacking you via social media, FMs, trying to brainwash your daughter, she realizes she is getting nowhere because you and your DH are united in NC, so she basically calls you up all waify and acts like nothing ever happened.
*She waits a few more months until the holidays begin-- Thanksgiving and Christmas-- in hopes that the "all about family" advertising will soften your stance and you will call her and invite her over for dinner and a jolly good time. 
*She escalates The Smear Campaign and gets really nasty, telling everyone who will listen (including your daughter) what an uncaring, unforgiving and downright mean daughter you are.

Any of these are possible and even more stuff that I haven't included.  You can't possibly prepare for every scenario, but I would consider forming a general "plan" around what, exactly, I was willing to do.  Sooner or later you will need to make a decision about whether to contact her or remain inside your castle with the drawbridge up.  But by all means, I encourage you to take all the time you need to sort out your feelings and-- given the parameters of your "relationship" with your disordered and dysfunctional extended family-- what YOU really want going forward.

Sounds like you are much better prepared to deal with whatever comes your way than you were several months ago!

[Sidney37]

Thanks Illogical.  I'm definitely in a much better place to deal with it.  The other shoe dropped yesterday, so to speak.  Deep down, I know it just won't stop.  She won't let this go.   She will want this to work out her way or to get revenge when she can't get her way.

Yesterday I got an ambush call from him.     I blocked all other communications except his cell phone in case of an actual emergency.  He called and insisted that I should forget everything that has happened in the past, because it is in the past, forgive her and just talk to her. She was right there and he wanted to put her on the phone.  I refused.  He kept insisting. I reminded him that forgiveness and reconciliation are different and why. He just kept insisting that I forget everything and move on. Insisting that I had to talk to her.   I said that if and when I was ready to talk to her, I'd call and let them know.  I said goodbye and hung up. 

The phone rang again.  It was her from his cell (or I wouldn't have answered).  She demanded to know what she had to do to resolve the situation.  I refused to give her a laundry list of things, but that she had to realize it and change her behavior.   She insisted that I had to tell her because she can't apologize if she doesn't know what she did.  I know how that goes.  If I tell her anything that she does to upset me she tells me that I am petty, too sensitive, that it never happened, that I misunderstood, how mean I am to her, I'm overreacting, etc. - the usual narcissistic excuses.  The person in the video posted above also said that you shouldn't have to tell them what they have done.  They have to know or you can't reconcile.  She again demanded to know. I took a long deep breath and pause to think about what to say.  I heard her telling enD that I had hung up on her, but I hadn't.  She hung up.  The call probably lasted 30 seconds. 

The therapist in the video says that you should only communicate with an unsafe person or a person who has "offended" (hurt, abused)  you in writing.  I know here most people say that a NC letter is useless.  I'm not sure if I should write one last email telling them that she has to realize what she is doing, make changes, apologize and if she can't she needs to go to therapy for some serious self reflection.  It's not like I haven't told them over years what she does. I've had more than one long conversation with enD in the past months about how verbally abusive she is.  He knows.  is there any advantage at all to the one last NC letter/email?

A4P.  I know you said that you told your parents that they needed to get significant professional help.  Did you send them a letter?  Did you tell them in person.  I can't say anything to her in person because her reactions are so intense. 

[illogical]

You did a fantastic job dealing with that ambush call!

IMHO, the only reason to write would be for you.  Your mother is not going to hear, contemplate anything you say to her that puts her in a bad light-- i.e., anything that is even slightly critical.  You are exactly right in anticipating her response, which would be denial, projection, gaslighting, blaming, shaming, etc., etc.,

Some write a letter or send an email because it makes them feel better to have a voice, even if that voice is ignored.  I went NC with my GC brother three times.  The third time was it, and at that time I went NC with my NM also.  I gradually faded away.  I put the drawbridge up and refused all phone calls, including those from FMs.  Some FMs slipped in under the radar (because they were calls from my NM's bank trying to get me to give them info that I might have to call NM to complete) and I didn't return those.  I had already not visited for months.  I had an ignoring NM, though, so she gave up on contacting me pretty easily.  And when my GC brother stepped in to handle her affairs (so he could manage and abscond with all the estate) NM didn't give me a second thought. 

Your mother is trying to put you in a "double bind" here.  I believe it was Vivid Imagination (a moderator on here) that came up with a great response to that:  You are damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you might as well do what's best for you!

That's my feeling.  Do what's best for YOU.  If it makes you feel better to send a letter/email, do it.  But as you noted, it will likely make little to no difference in her behavior and could even give her more "ammo" to counter you.  Sometimes, though, when we, as Adult Children of Narcissists, have been ignored for so long, it feels good to get it out there. 

You are doing great!!!

[Sidney37]

Thanks Illogical,  DH and I composed a short email.  I just wanted to say to them that I wouldn't be providing a list of what she was doing. I've done that before and it hasn't worked.  She asked me a while ago to mend things.  At the time I asked her what she was going to do to mend things.  I asked again what she thought she was doing and how she was going to change.  She isn't and I know it.  The email is for me.  I feel better and a sense of closure for having sent it.  I wanted my dad and their pastor, who will certainly end up reading it, to see that I'm being more than reasonable. 

I found the boundary email I sent 4 years ago.  It was good to read it.  She violated all but 1 on this last visit and they aren't even close to unreasonable things (don't insult people, don't threaten to leave, etc.) It's sad when we get to this point, but it's inevitable.  I can't heal from all of this any other way. 

[SaltwareS]

I would put forgiveness "on the table". Just table it indefinitely. It's a really confusing word.

[Sidney37]

Thank you.  It is a very confusing word.  I was raised in a family where forgiveness meant sweeping it under the rug and forgetting.  They seem to think that you should just forgive no matter what.

[illogical]

SaltwareS is correct-- "forgiveness" is a confusing word because there are different interpretations of what it means.

In the traditional sense, I think forgiveness means that someone has offended you and you are willing to overlook that offense, being that we all are human and make mistakes.

There are other definitions that have to do with "forgiving" someone so you can move forward with your life.  Some are tied into spiritual definitions and don't require the participation/interaction of the person you are forgiving.  You just forgive and move on with your life.  It's like a cleansing ritual. 

Not to belabor the point here, but I think from all you have posted, Sidney37, your mother just wants to use the idea of forgiveness to manipulate you.  She knows you are religious and so she plays off that. 

Let's just take what she has said to you and analyze it a bit.  She has said she doesn't know what she has done.  Okay, she has no self-awareness of her bad behavior (par for the course in PD land).  So why in hell would she ask you to forgive her?  Forgive her for what, exactly?  In her mind, she hasn't committed any offense that requires forgiveness.  Why, then, is she asking you to "forgive her and move on"?

Because she knows she fucked up, but she's not willing to admit it.  So she tries to turn the tables on you.  Make you out to be the "bad" daughter.  The one who is holding the grudge (classic projection) and won't forgive her.  So you aren't the Christian you pretend to be.  Yeah, right.  See how that works?

If you want to forgive your mother for her abuse, you are certainly able to do that.  As you have noted, however, that doesn't mean reconciliation.  Whatever definition of forgiveness you use, the bottom line is that your mother is not capable of admitting she did anything wrong.  She corrals your dad and has him go to bat for her, insisting that you "forgive" and sweep everything under the rug.  This is classic repetition of the Cycle of Abuse.

I think that sending her that email was a good idea, because you expressed your feelings.  But I would advise that when she answers you back-- and she most likely will-- that you don't correspond with her.  Very probable you will find yourself in a circular conversation, going round and round the merry-go-round about how you think she should conduct her life and change.  She won't have any of it.  She will paint you "bad" to all who will listen. 

"See,"  she says, "I called Sydney to see if she would forgive me for whatever it is she thinks I've done, but she's not reasonable.  She hung up on her dad and me as well.  There's just no talking to her.  She's so cold."  [followed by a decided catch in her voice and maybe even a tear].

Pure manipulation.  Please prepare yourself for that, as well as her trying to ally your daughter.  I think that is a clear and present danger here.  I would not answer the phone, even if it's your dad.  Let him go through your DH, if you feel you must keep the communication lines open.  But you might think about just cutting all ties for a time.  No Contact means you don't answer the clarion call.  Let the medical personnel handle any emergency, as you aren't them and the only thing you can do is give emotional support.  If you are in a period of No Contact, you might want to seriously think about doing that. 

[WomanInterrupted]

Illogical - you've got to change your name.  That post was completely logical - as usual. 

I don't think your mother really wants forgiveness - she wants *forgetness* - where everything goes back the way it was, and she continues to abuse you, because the past is now forgotten, so she gets a clean slate.   

If I honestly didn't know I'd offended somebody, I'd ask them what I did - and probably be mortified.  I'd apologize without prompting or asking, and make a mental note to not make that mistake again. 

On some level, your mom *does* know - she knows what she sounds like, and what words come out of her mouth. She just wants you to call her on them, so she can make you appear petty, small-minded, forgetful, thin-skinned, and possibly try to paint it all as a JOKE that you don't understand, because she's so much more above you, intellectually.

As Illogical said, if she doesn't know what she's done, why would she ask you to forgive her?  It doesn't make any *sense.*   

If I honestly thought I was in the right, I'd stridently defend my position, until I was proven wrong or right.  I wouldn't ask to be forgiven, just to get the other person off my back - then stew about apologizing for something I didn't do, or was right in doing. 

My own personal feeling on forgiveness is I *will* forgive anybody who doesn't go right back the their crappy behavior, acting like nothing happened, and things will continue as usual, with me being the scapegoat.

That sort of thing doesn't *earn* my forgiveness.  It  earns only my contempt - and silence through VVVVVLC or NC. 

No matter how you look at it, anything from this point on, from your mom - and possibly your dad - is going to be pure mind-fuckery and manipulation, meant to paint you as bad and unreasonable, while your mom *tried so hard* and you just wouldn't hear her out. 

That's crap and you know it.  You've had issues with her, going back decades - and all you want is to live your life in peace, without her jamming an electron microscope up your butt, while peppering you with invasive, nosy questions.

You sent your letter - GOOD.  From now on, let that speak for itself.

I'd block their numbers on *all* phones -including DD's.   Grandma does *not* get to do an end-around, to try to fill DD's head with poison and lies - as well as be your mom's *spy.* 

Yes - they can sink that low.  She might expect your DD to spy and report back to her, so if you can implement a permanent block DD doesn't know about, that might be the way to go.

I say this only because DD is a *minor* and needs protection from somebody who is filling her head with lies.

I think you made the right decision -  you've given your mom so many chances, and things only keep getting worse - and will continue to get worse as long as you allow her to abuse you, your DH and the kids.

Leave your parents in the rear-view mirror, where they belong. 

You really are doing great! 

[Ninaniner]

Leave your parents in the rear-view mirror, where they belong. 

I love this, and I have long felt that the rear view mirror is the proper place for parents!

[Sidney37]

As always, thanks to everyone, especially Illogical and WI for all of the wonderful advice and support.

I got a response.  I've written and re-written a post here but it just keeps getting longer and longer.  I'll try to make this one shorter.  There is just so much to vent about and so much to respond to. 

After receiving a response that was exactly what we all expected (excuse, denial, blame and insistence that I do all of the work to reconcile), written by enD and not uPDm, I know that I can no longer communicate with them.  I gave them a means to reconcile and they wouldn't take even the simplest step to make that happen.  They could have picked any hateful thing she has ever said, just one, and apologized for it.  I wouldn't have trusted her and it wouldn't have changed things, but she could have made some attempt.  She didn't. 

She blamed everything on her being old, not meaning anything she said or did to be hurtful and me failing to tell her when she said something upsetting.  She wasn't old 30 years ago.  I've tried to tell her in one way or another for 30+ years when she is hurtful.  She uses every PD tactic in the playbook when I have.  WI, you are right.  She wants me to call her on it so she can deny, blame shift, cry, manipulate, but also to make me look overly sensitive, petty, small minded and like I'm overreacting. 

When my kids have a fight at home, I go to each of them privately and ask if they can think of one thing they said or did that caused the outcome that they got and didn't like (name calling, someone mad, a fight, when they were smaller a shove or kick, etc.).  I ask them to come up with one thing they could have said or done differently that would have given them a less upsetting outcome.  They can do this.  My uPDm and enD can't.  Not one thing. 

DH has talked to DD and she now gets it.  In general conversation about high school experiences that she assumes we share, she's now hearing how our similar experiences aren't so similar.  I don't bring up the conversations, but when she asks how a particular experience was for me, I tell the truth and often those stories include uPDM's dysfunctional PD reactions, responses or behaviors.  No emotion in the descriptions, just the facts of what uPDM did or said in those situations.  I feel like I covered for uPDm in the past.  I'd tell the story and say I didn't know or couldn't remember how something happened, because I didn't want DD repeating what I said to uPDm.  Then I would get in trouble and DD would get unnecessarily caught up on the lies, manipulation and drama.  No need to tell her not to communicate with uPDm.  She appears not to be interested at this point.

WI,  She certainly wants *forgetness* and I'm not willing to sweep under the rug to protect enD any longer.  It's not even her asking for forgiveness.  She wants me to fix things. She asks me to mend them.  She wants me to do the work, me to make changes and me to forget.  HE wants me to forgive her so things will go back to normal and she will leave him alone about it.  Once again he had the opportunity to stand up for me and chose not to,  He knows how she has treated him for years.  He confided in me the abusive things she has said and done, but when it comes down to it, he has to side with her.  He even told me things that she recently has said to him that he has responded to her that such comments are "why Sidney is mad".  Many people here have said that they hoped that their enabler would change and be kind once the PD is gone, but they discovered that they were just as awful themselves.  I think that is probably the case here.

I got to say what I needed to say.  I got to ask if how she is talking to me is really how she feels about me.  And I got *her* response (from enD) that gave a really flimsy excuse, denial, blame shifting and insistence that I do everything to fix it while she does nothing.  Oh, they did say if I tell her when she upsets me that that they will tell me when I do anything to upset them, as if that is something new.  They've now given themselves some sort of permission to verbally abuse me.  If there is ever a time that I wonder why I am NC, I have the email to remind me. 

[illogical]

Congratulations on coming Out of the FOG!!!   

You got the expected "word salad" reply.     No logical response from them.  No making any kind of sense.  Just a jumbled mess of justification, blame-shifting and trying to put the onus on you to solve their problems.

As you have posted, you realize now that your enD is firmly entrenched and enmeshed with your NM, and exactly where his loyalties lie-- i.e., not with you.

In looking over my life, I have to say that my enF was pretty screwed up.  There were so many times he could have taken my side, gone to bat for me, helped me, but he chose instead to rally round NM's flag.  He was deceased when I went NC with NM and GC brother, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if he had been alive when I went NC, he would have sided with NM.  So sad, but you realize the dynamic and that's a good thing,, because you won't get caught up in trying to partner with him to "fix" the situation with your NM.

So glad your DD gets it!!

Your mother wants you back as The Fixer.  But you have walked off the stage.  Exited Stage Right.  No longer available to perform the role in her twisted play.  Good for you!

This probably goes without saying, but I wouldn't answer the email from them.  You will find yourself in The Circular Conversation From Hell.  But I think you already know that.  They get crickets from you. 

I think the longer you remain NC with your parents, the more clearly you will see the dysfunctional situation for what it is.  You already have a great grasp of the dynamic.  Please take care in the upcoming months, as the holidays tend to pressure us to respond to the "all about family" or "family is everything" message sent out by advertisers. 

Sad situation, but so glad the scales have fallen from your eyes and you see the situation for what it truly is!!  You might investigate "emotional detachment".  Imaging helped me so much to emotionally detach from my NM.  I think emotional detachment is key in helping you walk away from the dysfunction and move forward with your life. 

[moglow]

Sidney, none of what you've described previously is anywhere in the realm of what I know to be reconciliation or forgiveness and yet she's demanding that of you. You're expected to provide complete *capitulation* or else. Kowtow and return to HER/their status quo or heads will roll. Even though you provided your own [extremely reasonable, btw!] boundaries and basic civilities/ground rules, that's a no because that's YOUR request. If she can't do that, you exercise your boundaries. Want to be ugly, degrading, insulting, and just flat out rude? Do that - and I will remove myself from it. Done.

You don't and can't "reconcile" with someone who not only doesn't care to change but fails to recognize their own role. That's not reconciliation, it's deliberate choices on their part! You can reconcile to yourself that she is who she is and isn't going to change, yes. And then you respond accordingly - roll yourself back under it or choose to step away from the damage. You can forgive her for being that person and treating people the way she chooses - and STILL choose to remove yourself from obvious future harm. Those who cannot [will not] remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I know to her it's harsh and unfeeling,and I also know that she's apparently not willing to look at herself and her part in this. It's not one instance, one situation, one harsh response from her. There's not some all inclusive bulleted list for her to pick apart and "but what about the time you...??" trying to justify herself yet again in some way while she throws you back under the bus rather than face up to her own fuck ups [as we've all have to do]. It's cumulative - and it's devastating.

You hang in there. We're here with you.

[Ariel]

Loved the Patrick Doyle video. O am going through this right now and wow was he spot on. Thanks for that link

[Bonnie78]

Going no contact was the best thing I could have done.  It helped me in so many ways. Interestingly, I wasn't able to go no contact for a long time, until I felt that my mother's behaviour had escalated to a point where I had "the right" to say no to subjecting myself to any more of it. In hindsight, I regret not going NC sooner.  Because the point is not whether or not other people think, or even I think, that what she's done is bad enough for her to "deserve" NC, the point is do I think that I would be a healthier, happier person without being subjected to her toxicity? And the answer is yes.

Loyalty is a good character trait, but it can be taken too far.  Once you are NC for a while, you get some perspective.  The things that struck me were: a) Wow, I feel so much better, and b) Wow, she was worse than I realized.  When you are used to being treated badly, you don't always see how bad it is.

Letting go is very hard.  For me, it took a final straw.  But once you do really let go, it's amazing. You don't spend time feeling angry at them, you just get on with your life, because you don't want to miss any more of the good things in life than you already have.  You no longer have to worry about when the next bad thing will happen, because you won't be there to see it.  That is a priceless gift you can give yourself.

[Sidney37]

Thanks all.  I started therapy recently.  Not sure if it's a good fit, but we'll see.

They sent me an email that they will never bother me again.  I'm conflicted about whether it's better or worse to have them say the words first.  All I did in my original email was ask for an acknowledgement  of her behavior and a change.  I asked what she would do to mend the relationship.  I knew she couldn't do it, but I didn't quite expect a full on rejection from them.  I feel let off the hook, rejected and still nervous about what might cone next.  I guess it tells me a lot.  If I'm not providing her supply and not going along with the program, she doesn't want me. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'm so sorry, Sidney. I'm sure that hurts, even though you were already believing ending the relationship is for the best. For your sake I hope your parents stick to that. You asked for very simple things. It's very clear, in writing, that this is their choice to reject you rather than take any responsibility to be decent to you. That clarity is a great gift. There can't be any question whatsoever of your holding a grudge.