Saying 'no' and setting boundaries with people you are close to

[JollyJazz]

Hi All,

One thing I'm working on at the moment is setting some boundaries with a friend. She is a really lovely and good person. But I think she may have some 'fleas' from her own PD childhood, as she often gives me very forceful advice that I haven't asked for. It has made me feel really bad about myself at times, because I have made decisions on my own, based on what works FOR ME, so to be told to do something else all the time is quite stressful.

Anyway, so I'm working on setting a boundary around it with my T. But it has reminded me of my own difficulties in setting boundaries because of my fears of 'ruining' the relationship if I set up a boundary, say no etc. Does anyone else have similar experiences with this? I just want to feel okay in myself about saying no. Any thoughts/experiences welcome!

[biggerfish]

Hi Jollyjazz.
Good for you for taking this step. You have your own inner wisdom about what makes for a healthy relationship. So ask yourself whether boundaries are part of what makes a relationship healthy. I believe you already know the answer. Our logical minds are often more useful than our feelings. Nice work. I'm cheering you on.

[needfixing]

pure hell

you have no idea

[JollyJazz]

Hi BiggerFish,

Thanks for that

Our logical minds are often more useful than our feelings.

Yes - this is so true isn't it, especially when we've been socialised in a certain way... I often feel a storm of guilt and shame when I'm making progress on something.

Thanks for the encouragement

[HeadAboveWater]

I'm chiming in hoping to reduce some of the fear. Usually setting boundaries with friends does not result in "ruining" a relationship. In the very unlikely event it does end up going that way, then maybe it was time to get some space between you.

I wonder if your T can be a resource for working on scripts during your sessions. Without knowing the types of things your friend may say or do, it's hard to say what setting a boundary might look like. In many cases a tense confrontation is not needed. A healthy person will often get the hint when we try to redirect the conversation -- "That's not how I see this situation, Larla. Anyway, when are you leaving for that fly fishing vacation?" Can you adapt any of the medium chill responses in the toolbox to situations that come up with your friend?

Do you think that this friend could learn to keep herself from giving this unsolicited advice? Is it something she does for everyone? If it's a tendency that your friend needs to unlearn and she hasn't yet grasped that skill, a possible solution is to share less with this person. That is one way to set a boundary.

[JollyJazz]

Hi HeadAboveWater,

Thanks for your supportive words

Yes I'm working with this with my T, I've been drafting an email response to set a boundary.

I have been sharing less with my friend, but the latest is that she sent an email telling me that I should share more and that she is sick of me not sharing enough. So yes, while I care for my friend, it is boundary time! I know that she does give other people advice. She is such a good person in so many ways. But I realised from reading 'Children of the Self absorbed' that advice giving can be a trait that children of PD's (even though not PD can pick up). I wonder if that's what's happening there. Anyway, it is a good lesson for me in setting boundaries - something I do get anxious about, but its good to work on. Thanks again

[treesgrowslowly]

A topic I feel deeply about.

My 2 cents. If she values the friendship she has with you, she should be motivated to change something she does that isn't helpful when the thing she does, is also not really helpful to her either. Giving unsolicited advice often damages our relationships with people. She should tone it down... and enjoy supporting you instead of lecturing you.

People try to parent/advise other adults when they feel anxious about their own circumstances. Again, if she practices supporting you instead of lecturing you, she benefits too. If She's ready to see that, is anyone's guess.

Granted the people I've tried to befriend absolutely resent any suggestion at personal growth so this is all very theoretical that her changing could be seen as a good change for her.....your predicament indicates that you probably wish she supported you without lecturing you. A VERY normal and good expectation for you to have.

Re setting boundaries: In giving you unsolicited advice, she's setting boundaries indirectly. She's putting up a boundary around what she will and won't discuss with you. Giving you advice keeps the conversation in her comfort zone whereas supporting you and sitting on her desire to advise, would be outside her comfort zone. Food for thought?

She shouldn't, if she is a true friend, resent you for having boundaries in general. Everyone has boundaries whether they are implied or directly verbalized.

I dunno. I admit I'm burned out at the moment by this exact issue and I've realized that for me, as a survivor of NPD parenting, my friends need to be able to talk with me honesty about my boundaries and their boundaries. The last "friend" I had pushed back on my boindaries so much last year I just flat out ended the friendship. She was one of those people who believed she was entitled to all her boundaries but my boundaries didn't matter to her. She crapped on our friendship is how i think about it now that its in the rearview mirror.

With some people it really is as easy as letting them know that you need a break from hearing their advice and that the reason you like them are for reasons x and y... and that should keep the friendship going. For me I attracted so many self absorbed people over the years, the minute I asserted a boundary, they threw a tantrum and or went into fetal position as if my boundary victimized them. i.e. the drama of codependency...

I have learned the hard way that we have to be assertive with people right from the start. I do hope your friend is able to understand you and that your boundaries are good for your friendship.

[all4peace]

I maybe be misreading your gender, but if you're female and if you have time, I'm finishing up The Assertiveness Guide for Women and it is really helpful and practical!

If you don't have the time or inclination, it's also perfectly acceptable to say (just one idea here) "I value our friendship, but I'm not looking for advice at this time. What I really need is to know you're able to hear me and to try to understand where I'm coming from."

I'm someone who offers advice without being asked all.the.time (even here!), and I have to repeatedly check in with friends on what they're really asking for--advice, a listening ear, commiseration, etc.
I've been on the other side also---countless hours of listening to someone who isn't resolving their situation, and in that case a person might start offering unsolicited advice.

I don't know the full details of your situation, but it's perfectly reasonable for all humans to let others know what does and doesn't work for us. It may cause a bump in the relationship, but if she's basically reasonable and healthy she'll adjust. Good luck!

[Starboard Song]

Check out our toolbox guide on Boundaries.

There is one non-PD pattern that can lead to this. If you need to share a problem or stress point just to vent, and if your friend is a natural born fixer, then they'll feel compelled to offer solutions. I hear of spouses doing this all the time, usually men (like myself) being the compulsive fixers.

If your friend is a fixer, you may need to avoid any conversation about the problems they want to fix. That is not an unreasonable courtesy she might expect of you.

Everyone has said it, but it is still so hard: you should be able to tell a friend, "I really value your friendship, but the decisions I've made regarding Widget and Thingamajig are ones I'm comfortable, and I really don't want to discuss them any further."

Well, uh, there I went in fixer mode.

[GentleSoul]

I was a "fixer".  In the home I grew up in I was the oldest child and was given that role.  I was meant to look after my younger sibs and also make my alcoholic dad and untreated Al-anon mum happy.  I thought it was what I had to do.  To fix everybodies problems.

In was only when I was working my recovery program I discovered I did not have to do it.  I was overjoyed and it was a great relief.

I share this as I wonder if maybe your friend is like me. 

[JollyJazz]

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies.
I've emailed my friend now. I wrote a response and went over it with my therapist. The main emphasis of the email was that I let her know I appreciate her good intent, but I have it under control and that I'd let her know if I needed help in future.

For background, the things she is offering advice on are things I only brought up briefly in the past. They are things that are quite personal to me, and I am handling with my T. I've avoided talking about them, and I don't want them brought up again and again. She doesn't have the whole background or know the whole picture, but has still been giving advice.

Anyway, I hope it is okay, she is a good friend and a kind person. But I don't think she realises how much her advice giving hasn't been helping, and has just added additional stress, hurt and make me feel more isolated and less likely to talk to her about things.

She is a really good person. So I am hopeful that it will have a positive outcome.

Coming from a home where my boundaries were repeatedly trampled on/ignored... I do feel real anxiety about this!

Treesgoslowly...

With some people it really is as easy as letting them know that you need a break from hearing their advice and that the reason you like them are for reasons x and y... and that should keep the friendship going. For me I attracted so many self absorbed people over the years, the minute I asserted a boundary, they threw a tantrum and or went into fetal position as if my boundary victimized them. i.e. the drama of codependency...

I relate to this! This is certainly my experience with my attempts to assert boundaries in the past! I hope it works out okay with my friend.

All4Peace, thanks for the book recommendation! I will check it out. Asking what others want when they are bringing something up sounds like a good idea. After reading about codependency I realised that advice giving can be one of the 'fleas' that non's can pick up.

Starboard song, thanks for the link to the ToolBox. They really are great. Re: bringing up the issue, as above... I haven't been bringing it up, in fact actively avoiding it. But that is a good point in general. I think fixing is all good when its asked for (as I did in this post) thanks for your thoughts too.

GentleSoul, yes I agree on this. If we are given too much responsibility/blame for things that aren't really our fault growing up, of course we end up feeling like its our responsibility / duty to 'fix' others.

I'm hopeful that things work out with my friend. She is a great person, and in a way that increases my anxiety about taking the right approach to this boundary. Fingers crossed!

[biggerfish]

We all have our fingers crossed with you.

[GentleSoul]

Good to read your update.  My fingers crossed for you too.

[JollyJazz]

Hi All,

Thanks again for your thoughtful replies. They really help

I did send her a very carefully worded reply - with the help of my therapist.

The latest is that I did get a response back from my friend, and unfortunately, it hasn't worked out like I'd hoped, she is still pressuring me I feel like she is withdrawing from the friendship and her latest email implied I wasn't being a friend by not sharing this issue with her.

I think in my next reply I'll have to restate things more directly, anyway, I am working on this with my therapist.

Basically, I have shut down talking about the issue she keeps bringing up for a while now (it was a hint not to keep giving me advice on this issue). I am working on this issue with my therapist, and the additional pressure from my friend just made a difficult situation more stressful.

She has been pressuring me over and over to give her more detail about what is going on with this, although I have made it clear I don't want to (and the judgmental advice giving from her is why!). I've felt very hurt by her advice giving, and it makes me feel so infantalised - like an errant child. My friend is quite a lot older than me - about 20 years. But I am an adult, and I am capable of dealing with things...

Anyway, getting there, thanks for your support all On a positive note, this is a good exercise in assertiveness and boundary setting for me, something I have struggled with!

[all4peace]

I'm so sorry for how it is playing out. I'm thankful you have the good support of your therapist! Even though we can lose some relationships with boundaries, at least we learn some valuable information about that person's ability to be safe for us. Hugs to you.

[JollyJazz]

Hi All for Peace,

Thanks for that I appreciate it!

Yes I think it is good learning for me. I've been feeling hurt and sad about it today though. I am fortunate to have a therapist to discuss it with

I'll keep posting on how it goes!

[openskyblue]

Coming to this conversation a little late in the game, but I wanted to commend you for your bravery with your friend and boundaries. Making boundaries with friends -- especially old ones -- is something I find myself struggling with too.

In particular, I have recently backing away from a friend of many years who I was a big caretaker for after her husband died and left her with young children. Over the years, she's made a lot of bad money and partner decisions, and I dutifully showed up to help every time being supportive, pitching in with the kids, helping with her business.. But when it wasn't until I left my NPD exhusband, that I realized that she wasn't showing up to support me in the same way. Actually, she was hardly showing up at all -- and would even joke about what a bad friend she was sometimes. I finally realized that I had set the dynamic that I was the caretaker/fixer, she was the victim just as much as she had. Then, less than a month after I'd finally gotten my settlement, she was on my doorstep asking for a loan. Straw, camel's back.

Since then, I'm friendly, but I don't offer to make dates to get together or make holiday plans. I'm kind of waiting to see if she picks up the slack -- and bracing myself for needing to accept that she won't. It makes me sad, but also it feels like I'm learning an important life lesson. I wish you luck in your process with your friend. This is hard stuff.

[JollyJazz]

Hi OpenSkyBlue,

Thanks for your message and your support.

Yes I've been feeling sad about it.

I'm sorry to hear about the situation you are going through as well. I've had some friendships like that too, where they were one sided and then we start to change and notice that we are always the ones doing the running around. I do think that part of the dynamic in my own friendship originated from the fact that we worked together, and she is a lot older than me. Nevertheless, I think its okay to ask for boundaries!

I talked to my therapist about it, and she suggested doing some distancing. She pointed out how my friend has been criticizing me, and still did in the latest email.

Anyway, thanks again, I'll post any updates on the situation here