I've googled this issue to death, and haven't found anything that is specifically about advocating for yourself, and then having an anxiety attack as a result. (Everything I found was about how to advocate for ourselves as people with anxiety. That's not it!)
:stars:
Does anyone else here know what I'm talking about? I was taught as a little girl never to rock the boat. Now I'm in my sixties and I still get anxiety every time I advocate for myself, even in the most trivial of ways. I associate self-advocacy with being a bad girl. I shouldn't do that. It might not please someone. Ya da ya da Ya da. It all goes through my head.
So this morning I did a self-advocacy. I know in my mind and heart that I did it exceptionally well, with love and gravitas and kindness. And now I'm stressed and anxious, and want a drink, but it's only ten in the morning. LOL. No I'm not an alcoholic. But right now I do want to self-medicate.
What I am looking for here in my post is SOMEBODY who can relate to anxiety after self-advocating. I sometimes call it my "emotional hangover." I have never in my life met anyone who knows what I'm talking about. So if you have this symptom, I'd love to hear more about it. Have you improved over time? How does it manifest itsefl? If you are cured, please tell me how you did it. Tell me everything you want to tell me about this conditon. Thank you. I love Out of the FOG. I'm not here much any more because both my PD's are now deceased. But the symptoms can still continue....
I feel like I understand this. Any time I stick up for myself in an assertive way I literally shake and I feel my voice shaking etc.
I had this experience a few days ago.
The pds in my life have accused me of being too nice, too accommodating, too accepting, a goody two shoes, etc. But any time I've stood up to them they've gotten angry at me....
So I think that contributes to my anxiety when I stand up for myself.
I also have trouble advocating for myself and my special needs kids, but I "have to do it" in order to get the things we need. I get very scared if I have to put up a fight/argue with anyone. It doesn't matter if it's in person, over the phone or in mail. In my case it can become very traumatizing to have to fight with a stranger for the things we need (worse when it's many strangers), so I've been trying to cut out as much traumatizing stuff as possible.
I have a system that works for me.
1) how important is this? Do I need it or can I live without it? Is there another way to fulfil this?
2) whom do I need to contact? Do I "have to" call them? Can I get someone as support to help me with the call?
3) what are my options to get this done/accomplished? Email? Letter? Can I leave a phone msg? (I do better with phone messages by pre writing what I want to say then reading it on the answering machine)
4) is there a time limit? What all do I need for this task? (I find breaking things down to smaller tasks makes it easier for me to do it)
5) Do it. Preferably on a day with no other huge tasks. (Less stress and mistakes this way) (I found having a support person very helpful)
6) Recover. Relax, deep breathes, meditation, tea, soothing and calming activities to help me get back in my groove. At least until the jitters go away and my brain, breathing and heart rate turn back to normal.
i feel like my system is very simplistic but it works for me and it makes it possible to do the really hard stuff. Hopefully it helps.
Yes. I was just talking about it this AM on a walk with a friend. I shake to death when I need to ask for something from a superior or set a boundary with anyone. When I go to the doctor for instance, I am terribly nervous. Once I had to go see a lawyer and I felt like I was six years old and he was the huge man and I was the size of an ant. Asking for what I need is one of my biggest issues.
I cannot pinpoint where this originated either. All I know is that I am the "baby" of the family. Often I used large words when I was young and I was laughed at by my parents and older sibling. Later when I became a teen, when I tried to tell my mother, what she was doing was hurting me, I got screamed at.
When I went out into the work world, asking for what I needed was terrifying. I watched other people do it with ease and it made me have an anxiety attack imagining doing it. When I went to university I would never be the type to to ask a question of the professor, or question a mark, or ask for an extension. I saw other people do it with ease and it baffled me.
This is a thing for me too. And I'd be very interested in other thoughts around it.
I did read Maxwell Gladwell's book Outliers - and in that he talks about parents who teach their children self-advocacy vs those who do not. The parents who encourage their kids to self-advocate, their kids become more successful in life.
My mother taught me to be submissive and she felt very inferior of others and passed that onto me as well. She also felt very strongly that you do not rock the boat. She did not attend any of the parent-teacher meetings for me when I was a child at school. Neither did my father.
I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but I'll throw it out there and see what you think.
I am dealing with what I hope is a minor health crisis. I had a very alarming set of symptoms one week ago and went to my doctor a few days ago. He's very calm and friendly, but from what he recommended as a follow-up, I can tell that there might indeed be an underlying serious problem. Since then, partly I've been anxious about whether I might indeed have a serious underlying condition and partly I've felt as though I'm overreacting by feeling anxious. This morning, the thought popped into my head, "Hey, maybe it's okay and normal to be worried when a doctor says I might have a serious condition." But I still feel as though I don't "deserve" to worry.
Wow i just read these replies and am taking it all in. Getting replies really helps me feel less alone. But it strikes me, too, that i don't actually avoid self advocacy. I do it often and I'm good at it. But it trashes me afterwards. Today, for example, was a total stupid wasted day because of it. I spent the day fighting the notion that I'm a bad girl. So i watched tv crime shows so i could feel I'm better than the criminals. Lol.
I don't avoid self-advocacy either. But I feel kind of ashamed of engaging in it. (I know, I shouldn't. This is definitely a "Working on Us" topic for me!)
When I speak my truth, even to a safe person, I often literally lose my voice. I dissociate and am certain my heart palpitations are audible. But, by damn, if I see someone else marginalized or mistreated, I'm all in, like a mama bear.
I've got to learn that I'm worth advocating for. (Thank you for the opportunity to ponder.) :hug:
I think advocating for oneself (and dependants) is a very hard thing to do, especially when most of us were ignored, punished or abused in some fashion previously for it. It becomes a retraumatizing event that we have to face whenever we need something.
3 years ago, before I left my uPDex, I used to dissociate when I had to advocate for myself or my kids. My fear would overwhelm me but my request had to be done, so my feelings would shut off and I'd just rely on facts to get our needs met. Yes, it worked but there was a residual effect afterwards. I'd remain dissociated for the rest of the day (I didn't have any coping skills at the time) and could easily be overwhelmed, upset or stressed out by anything. I'd remain on edge for the rest of the day or longer. It was not a good way to live.
Now, I don't dissociate anymore. I feel my fear but I realize I can do things to help soften the uncomfortableness. There is no reason to suffer more than is necessary. I make a plan. I use whatever coping skills I have developed. I assume I'll need recovery time afterwards (this has been getting shorter and shorter, I'm at anywhere from 5-30 minutes unless I'm caught off guard then I need an hour or 2 to recover) and plan my day with that in mind.
Maybe creating a recovery/coping plan for afterwards might help you. One that uses those techniques that help stabilize you after facing off with a pwPD. (Those are meant to restabilize ourselves after we get thrown into the twilight zone by a PD, I find they work quite well)
Poison Ivy, I hope everything is okay.
D.Dan, what are some of your coping skills?
Thank you, NumbLotus
Listening to weightless by Marconi Union, it supposed to lower anxiety by 65%.
Rose green tea, it makes me sleepy, but much calmer, I hear chamomile tea does the same thing but that never worked for me.
Sometimes reading a funny short story or watching cute/funny shorts on YouTube or some other channel.
Every once in awhile, yoga helps. Sometimes running (about 5-15 minutes).
It's a combo of calming and distraction. I try to avoid getting to far into my head after these things because that's like that saying of "going down the rabbit hole" and once you start it's hard to stop.
And a little bit of chocolate too.
I forgot, but when I get caught off guard and have to advocate right there and then, I usually need deep breathing right afterwards before doing anything else.
I'm really grateful for this topic and thread.
I too will stand up for others in a second, but when it comes to myself, I struggle so much I often avoid it.
Gosh I do this too! I stand up for others in a red hot minute, even if it means pissing off superiors or whatever, but for myself? Hell no. I do stand up for the kids better than for me, though it earns me a lot of flack.
I too have to work on this. I like the idea of planned recovery (and chocolate to recover from dementors lol).
I agree that this is a difficult task, since we were conditioned so long ago.
I have to do some sales activities, cold calling on businesses, which is new for me. This is something that is terrifying, for all of the reasons others have mentioned. I am.the queen of dissociation perhaps. Not a good coping skill, but its what i have to work with.
I also envy people who breeze through things i loathe. I do keep after it though. I have to succeed. Motivation to keep a job pushes me alot. I wish i could say i am conquering the feelings, but its not true.
I can relate to this as I've been raised to "be a good girl" and not to "cause problems". I really struggle now when speaking out against poor treatment or obtaining the same treatment as other people. I tend to hold it in or second guess myself out of fear of being labelled as sensitive or unreasonable.
Something that has helped me is to talk with someone I trust about the situation first and to research possible solutions, pros/cons of acting or not acting. Especially the last one - if I can affirm that there is more pros in acting than in not, I usually feel more confident about my decision.
Oh gosh, I love you all. Everyone's input is so valuable to me right now, as my advocacy resulted in the person suggesting a compromise which I think is not well thought out. So I've had to reply with something even stronger, but still...well crafted and loving.
So I'm having another kinda bad day today. And yes about runnning it by someone I trust. I just ran it by my best friend as I know she will be supportive and loving.
Hugs to all...
Quote from: 11JB68 on February 22, 2020, 11:16:23 AM
I feel like I understand this. Any time I stick up for myself in an assertive way I literally shake and I feel my voice shaking etc.
Yes, 11JB68 link, I can relate. I shake and I also become tongue-tied. This time when I did it, I sent a "heads up" email explaining that I'm about to send an email because I get too tongue-tied in person. I've had to let go of the "ideal" which I've always thought was speaking directly to the person. I just can't do that. Instead, I write a factual email. I have to rewrite it a few times to be sure I don't regret any of the words.
We are all figuring this out slowly, and it does really help to talk about it with others who truly understand.
Quote from: D.Dan on February 22, 2020, 01:01:55 PM
I also have trouble advocating for myself and my special needs kids
D.Dan, this made me smile because I have an adult special needs child, for whom I had to do all that advocating over the years. I don't know how old yours are, but mine's now 27 years old and I look back fondly at all I did for him. It sure wasn't easy. And yes I'm still advocating for him. I will always have to.
I liked the list you wrote. I need to now apply it to advocating for myself. It's as though I went right back to my childhood aversion, and had forgotten all the tools I had learned as a fierce mother bear.
So thank you for the list. Especially the reminder that it CAN be broken up into steps. It feels less overwhelming that way.
Quote from: Sweetbriar on February 22, 2020, 01:02:12 PM
I did read Maxwell Gladwell's book Outliers - and in that he talks about parents who teach their children self-advocacy vs those who do not. The parents who encourage their kids to self-advocate, their kids become more successful in life.
Sweetbriar, I could relate to everything you said. And you hit the nail on the head about being taught to self-advocate. You and I were taught NOT to self-advocate. So here we are, teaching ourselves. That's called sweet revenge.
Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 22, 2020, 03:04:18 PM
Since then, partly I've been anxious about whether I might indeed have a serious underlying condition and partly I've felt as though I'm overreacting by feeling anxious. This morning, the thought popped into my head, "Hey, maybe it's okay and normal to be worried when a doctor says I might have a serious condition." But I still feel as though I don't "deserve" to worry.
Poison Ivy, I hear ya. And part of the worry, at least for me, would be about my "performance" for the coming appointments, and how my anxiety will be perceived. You and I need to keep telling ourselves to stop judging ourselves. :wave:
I hope it all turns out to be okay.
Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 22, 2020, 05:41:31 PM
I don't avoid self-advocacy either. But I feel kind of ashamed of engaging in it. (I know, I shouldn't. This is definitely a "Working on Us" topic for me!)
Yes! That's it! I feel shame.
I hate feelings. I am now actively chasing the shame away. It's easier now that I have the word for it.
Quote from: Amadahy on February 22, 2020, 06:59:04 PM
I'm all in, like a mama bear.
LOL. I'm a mam bear too, Amadahy. We are reteaching ourselves right now in this thread that our needs are valuable and that we can advocate for ourselves
Quote from: D.Dan on February 22, 2020, 07:09:03 PM
3 years ago, before I left my uPDex, I used to dissociate when I had to advocate for myself or my kids. My fear would overwhelm me but my request had to be done, so my feelings would shut off and I'd just rely on facts to get our needs met. Yes, it worked but there was a residual effect afterwards. I'd remain dissociated for the rest of the day (I didn't have any coping skills at the time) and could easily be overwhelmed, upset or stressed out by anything. I'd remain on edge for the rest of the day or longer. It was not a good way to live.
D.Dan, I think I might be doing this dissociating, but I don't really know what it is, and I think I might not be as self-aware of it as you are. Where can I learn more about this? My emotional recovery takes a few days, and I would love for it to take just an hour or two.
Quote from: D.Dan on February 22, 2020, 07:29:43 PM
It's a combo of calming and distraction. I try to avoid getting to far into my head after these things because that's like that saying of "going down the rabbit hole" and once you start it's hard to stop.
And a little bit of chocolate too.
This advice might seem obvious to some, but not to me! The combo of distraction and calming makes so much sense now that you said it. And I am now actively avoiding the rabbit hole. Words help me so much. Oh and chocolate helps too. :yeahthat:
Quote from: Sweetbriar on February 22, 2020, 07:33:36 PM
I'm really grateful for this topic and thread.
Sweetbriar, me too. I am so grateful to all of you who are so willing to share and help. This thread is keeping me on an even keel this week.
Quote from: SparkStillLit on February 23, 2020, 09:12:23 AM
...though it earns me a lot of flack.
I too have to work on this. I like the idea of planned recovery (and chocolate to recover from dementors lol).
I got so much flack advocating for my kids that I became a hated figure in their school district and within the Board of Education. I did things that made the newspapers. So yeah, I like that word "flack."
And I agree that I like this idea of "planned recovery." We all keep learning, don't we.
:thumbup:
Quote from: Spygirl on February 23, 2020, 06:20:46 PM
I also envy people who breeze through things i loathe. I do keep after it though.
Spygirl, I like this reminder that just because it's easier for other people, doesn't mean we can't do it too. It takes diligence, as you said.
;D
Quote from: ingenting on February 24, 2020, 04:59:21 AM
when speaking out against poor treatment
ingenting, you just put into words what I was advocating about. I felt that I (and a few other people) were being treated poorly. THANKS! :banana:
My kids are 8,10, and 13 and all 3 are on the autism spectrum. All 3 are unique in their abilities and needs so usually I have to advocate for 3 different things at the same time.
Quote from: biggerfish on February 25, 2020, 09:15:04 AM
Quote from: D.Dan on February 22, 2020, 07:09:03 PM
3 years ago, before I left my uPDex, I used to dissociate when I had to advocate for myself or my kids. My fear would overwhelm me but my request had to be done, so my feelings would shut off and I'd just rely on facts to get our needs met. Yes, it worked but there was a residual effect afterwards. I'd remain dissociated for the rest of the day (I didn't have any coping skills at the time) and could easily be overwhelmed, upset or stressed out by anything. I'd remain on edge for the rest of the day or longer. It was not a good way to live.
D.Dan, I think I might be doing this dissociating, but I don't really know what it is, and I think I might not be as self-aware of it as you are. Where can I learn more about this? My emotional recovery takes a few days, and I would love for it to take just an hour or two.
It was actually my counsellor that informed me I was dissociating. There are a lots of articles when you google them but I don't know which would help best.
As I understand it, Dissociation is a disconnection from yourself. (your body, mind, emotions, your reality) I disconnect from my emotions so I don't feel them in that moment. I remember everything that is occurring at that time, with a mild feeling that I'm watching it happen to someone else like it's really not my body, not really happening to me. (these are also symptoms of dissociation)
I used to think dissociation was not remembering things after the fact, like a disconnection from reality. I thought that it didn't apply to me because I could remember what I did long after the fact. But no, that's just one of many symptoms.
Quote from: biggerfish on February 25, 2020, 09:17:32 AM
Quote from: D.Dan on February 22, 2020, 07:29:43 PM
It's a combo of calming and distraction. I try to avoid getting to far into my head after these things because that's like that saying of "going down the rabbit hole" and once you start it's hard to stop.
And a little bit of chocolate too.
This advice might seem obvious to some, but not to me! The combo of distraction and calming makes so much sense now that you said it. And I am now actively avoiding the rabbit hole. Words help me so much. Oh and chocolate helps too. :yeahthat:
It wasn't obvious to me either. I'm mentally and emotionally tripping over coping skills that work for me.
What I
really noticed, was that the tactics I used for my kids to help them stay calm or to deescalate from a high emotional state during difficult times also seemed to work for me, so I decided to start using them for myself too. :)
It's often would cry when I self-advocate. When I say often, I mean every time. I would never speak up much and when I did, I'd cry. It wasn't like me to verbally defend myself or my thoughts, so when I did do it I felt guilty and cried. I was also the type to just sit there and "take it" until I could finally take no more, and that would be the end. Man, I really wonder what happened in my life to make me be that way. Was it the "children should be seen and not heard" mantra that made me scared to voice my thoughts and opinions? Or possibly something else. Being the "baby" of the family, I felt I was never heard or had not experienced enough in life as my much older sibs to be able to hold any type of meaningful conversation.
Now, not so much. Now, I'm just the "boat rocker" when it comes to dealing with my uNPD mother. Rope has been dropped. They know why, but they don't think the punishment (VVVvLC) fits the crime (too many to name).
Quote from: Seven on February 26, 2020, 07:56:01 AM
Now, not so much. Now, I'm just the "boat rocker" when it comes to dealing with my uNPD mother. Rope has been dropped. They know why, but they don't think the punishment (VVVvLC) fits the crime (too many to name).
:yeahthat:
Love this. Let me shout this from the rooftops: We can change! We just have to apply ourselves over and over until it turns into a new habit.
Hi Biggerfish, I know what you mean; it's not just not being able to stand up for yourself, but when you do, not feeling good about it afterwards. I call it a "hangover" too.
I’ll share the resources that have helped me. Of course, make up your own mind whether it applies to you or you want to try any of it.
The only resource that I found to specifically address this was Richard Grannon.
He talks about the importance of taking self-interested action (self-advocacy) in moving out of what he calls "toxic passivity", aka, people pleasing, codependence, fawn response, etc.
The idea is that people who aren't used to self-advocacy will go into an emotional flashback when they do stand up for themselves, because of the toxic conditioning from childhood - like what D.Dan said about dissociating.
Emotional flashbacks (EFs) are triggered by intense stress like interpersonal conflict, and create a trauma response. There are four main responses, called the “four Fs” - fight, flight, freeze and fawn.
Dissociation = freeze. You might find you’re also “fawning” - doing people-pleaser things, like apologising to avid conflict, etc.
While we’re in an EF, we’re in an altered emotional state. We’re not functioning at our best, and feel quite unhappy. We’re focused on survival, not living life to the full with emotional connection, etc. I know I have emotional flashbacks after conflict/standing up for myself, and it could very well explain the low feeling you have for several days.
It's worth looking at emotional flashbacks - have you read Pete Walker's "Complex PTSD - from Surviving to Thriving?” His website’s good, too, and free:
http://pete-walker.com/13StepsManageFlashbacks.htm
And there’s a great free course for stopping emotional flashbacks - Richard Grannon again:
https://spartanlifecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/HOW-TO-STOP-AN-EMOTIONAL-FLASHBACK-2018-V4.pdf
The course is a hand mnemonic, about 1 minute long, repeated 5 times a day. It works in 2 ways:
1) because you are effectively saying affirmations, 5 times a day, which can reprogram your subconscious to support you more in life.
One of the affirmations is “I can say no with a smile” - imagine how you’d feel about standing up for yourself if that belief displaced any idea you might have that it is wrong to rock the boat.
2) because you are calling attention to your emotional state 5 times a day. This gradually builds awareness of when you are, and when you aren’t, in an emotional flashback, and then with awareness comes options for dealing with it.
I started doing it in October and saw results within the first week.
I’m still recovering and still doing the hand mnemonic, and I believe it is helping me a lot.
Last week someone cut in line at the supermarket and I stood up for myself without even thinking, effortlessly, gracefully, and with no emotional fallout. This would have been impossible for me a year ago.
Hope this helps, all the best.