Thinking of ultimatum (long)

[NumbLotus]

I love it when people theow stuff at the wall. Sometimes the most brilliant epiphanies can come out of it.

I feel like I can't research or keep notes (which I need - I think by writing) for fer he will find it. I'm on this forum using a very old device which can successfully load this site thank god but crashes with most. There is no keyboard so it's one finger pecking.

So my plan is that this summer I'm visiting my mom. She has an old laptop there but it mostly works. I can research and write whatever I want. I'm going to try to get it all out if my head and onto (digital) paper.

Run budget numbers. Look at housing around here. Write scripts of how things might go. Try to wrap my head around what is best for DD, because she is not like every other child.

Bottom line is I'd be gone if I was sure that would be better for her - I hesitate because I'm sincerely unsure,, though I know others will feel like surely it would be 100% better. But you know a situation is always more nuanced than it appears in someone else's life. All of you could leave my H in the snap of a finger, good riddance, as I could leave all your SOs. It's the human condition, eh?

[ICantThinkOfAName]

One thing that absolutely smacks me in the face about this situation is the addiction issue you have with him.  He has to stop drinking.  This may be exasperating or causing his hallucinations OR there may be other drugs at play.  The sleeping, not doing anything, anger, and controlling behavior just smacks of substance abuse.  If his drinking is causing his hallucinations he is an alcoholic in danger of killing his liver and himself.  If he has mental illness, he needs the right treatment as those hallucinations will only get worse.  IMO... hail mary pass... Go to rehab or I'm done.  At least there, they can diagnose him separate of the substances.  If he refuses to go, then you leave.  At least you will have done literally everything you could.  You can leave with a clean conscience.  It really is his decision in the end.  If he really wanted help, he would have gotten it.  Life is working for him as is.  Another thought, what would he do if you left?  Would he maybe see that he needs help? Maybe that's what it would take for him to realize he has a problem, Maybe the only way for you to help him is to leave. 

Again, just my opinion based on my own experience.  And mine did go rehab but relapsed.  So, yeah I'm done.  And to add, everyone who has replied here has really had some solid advice, so I hope that there is something for you to take away amongst all the chatter.  I'm envisioning that PD free life for you.  It does look fantastic!

[NumbLotus]

Good thoughts.

Good news, he is currently weaning off alcohol. There's actually a plan and it's implemented and it was his choice.

The alcohol seems to be a ptsd thing to me. The anger isn't a drunk thing, he drinks after everyone is asleep. He finds it soothes his anxiety, quiets him a bit. But he needs to work on the ptsd thing too, or it will not work long term.

Btw he has no official ptsd diagnosis but it seems square on to me. And he does certainly have trauma in his childhood.

I don't see the hallucinations as alcohol related either.  They suddenly turned on like a switch during a non-alcohol related mental health crisis (I am not sure he was drinking at all during that time). And I never see him drunk. I think it's a symptom, not a cause. It's got a known ptsd connection.

[NumbLotus]

Another thing is that we tried an otc hormone replacement and it seems to have stopped the rages cold. His emotional control is so much better. It should be a miracle and yet I'm finding it's not enough. I struggle with that feeling.

It really is different - I'm actually not on eggshells anymore. That's huge. Huge huge huge.

And yet life is still over.

[eyesopen]

When it comes to talking with him about this Hail Mary attempt, I have a different view than most of you.  Most of the responses seem to be along the lines of, "You're neglecting your health and it's affecting me and our marriage.  Therefore I need you to get help."  There are far more gentle ways to word it, but I'm afraid no matter how gentle, he's still going to hear it as an attack against his ego/virility and he'll dismiss it or counter attack.  He could also play the victim and dig deeper into the "poor me" narrative.

If he can't take constructive criticism and you can't count on his empathy for you or the marriage, then anything that sounds remotely like "I need you to..." will be seen as an attempt by you to be controlling.  For there to be any hope of getting through to him, he needs to come to the conclusion that he wants to better himself for his own reasons.  Doing it for you won't work - he'll only do it for himself.

So the trouble is, how can you make him realize that he needs help without him catching on that you're trying to make him do it?  There are probably a number of hints or questions you can drop on him to make him start to think about it on his own.

One idea:  "Remember when you used to [insert active thing he no longer does that used to give HIM pleasure]?"

Or just making healthy choices for yourself and casually making sure he knows: "I went to the doctor for an annual checkup and I'm glad I did.  I didn't realize I had a problem with _____, but the doctor is having me _____ and I'm already feeling much better than before."  Or, "I'm going out for a walk (or other active/healthy activity), care to join me?"  He'll probably decline, but when you come back from the walk, "I had a great walk.  I saw some birds/flowers/kids (tell a brief story about what a great time you had)."

The point of it all would be to make him discover on his own that by neglecting his health, he's missing out on the joys of life and that there's the possibility for him to feel better if he wants to.  Honestly, I'm not very optimistic that anything will work.  But the benefit of this approach is that you get to move forward with your own healthy/active/fun lifestyle choices and don't allow yourself to be dragged down by his apathy.  If you eventually come to the conclusion that you need to leave him, you'll be well on your way by taking care of yourself and having positive independent experiences.

[NumbLotus]

Yes, you've put your finger on it. It has to be about him, not because he's a narcissist but because anything else will trigger his shame.

So I will start thinking of examples that have nothing at all to do with me, our daughter, the house. Things he used to enjoy.

Hints won't do, though. He is too far gone for hints.

[eyesopen]

One other option to mention...

If he truly is incapable of helping himself due to the mental and physical decline in his health, you could pursue legal options to take over his healthcare decisions.  By getting a power of attorney (see a lawyer, I don't know exactly what's necessary to implement this), you could force him to get care because he's unfit to care for himself.

Going this direction would truly be living the "in sickness and in health" part of your vows if that's of paramount importance to you.  It would also be extremely stressful because he'd probably put up a fight to prevent you from taking this action.  So only do it if you're sure you're in for the long haul.

[NumbLotus]

I don't think he's there yet but it's an option to tuck away.

I truly wonder, just intellectually, if I left him would he sink or swim? I'm not even talking about what I would or should do, I just don't know if he would just fall apart, get a new woman to take care of him stat, commit suicide, or slog along somehow.

I don't know how bad he is. It's like that illusion image where you see the faces or a vase, i switch back and forth. Is he really as bad as I'm saying? I DON'T KNOW.

Sorry for my obsessive writing. I swear I am more normal than this, this is just like lancing 50 pounds of pus, it just keeps coming out.

[1footouttadefog]

Many things you describe are similar to my situation with my pdh.

He had childhood trauma, then military/combat trauma.  He is diagnosed with PTSD, bipolar and ocpd

He also has BPD traits and I believe he is a covert narc.

Many things in your story remind me of the covert narc aspects of my own.

This past couple of years some new stuff   has crept in.  Inability to do things. Executive function issues, and audio hallucinations, as well as impulsive decisions that are counter to his core person. 

We had him tested for dementia and will get that report soon. 

There is a type of dementia brought on by severe drinking.  This came to mind as I read your story. 

Also Parkinson's and parkinsonism can bring about hallucinations. 

Frontilobe dementia is something to research as well.  I showed my pdh a video about it and he responded positively about being tested.  Tue video is a woman exolaining what her and her spouse experienced. It is done as drawings with a voice over.  It focuses on her missing things about her spouse and is very loving.

In the mean time I live in my own part of the house for sanity

[NumbLotus]

Thank you.

I looked up frontotemporal dementia, and... I think it's possible. I will look into it more.

I do not see any good in sharing the theory with him. He has a deep shame trigger with the idea of any defects, labels, and certainly "brain damage" is not going to be well received in any way.

I wonder if the frontotemporal dementia could account for the hallucinations. While alcoholism is a good theory, I just don't feel like that's it. But a FTD feels closer to it. I'll have to look up Parkinson's too. He has no shake but he has recently fallen a couple of times, and broke his arm in one fall. I wuestioned the hell out if that, trying to determine if he had any neuropathy, but he said he just wasn't being careful. And that explanation seemed reasonable as he has always managed to do stupid stuff and hurt himself but somehow I wasn't sure if this was different. It seemed a little different somehow - usually his blunders are more related to taking a risk rather than just tripping.

This is really useful and I feel like even if it's not FTD or Parkinson's, I think I've found the neighborhood. And it's terrifying.

And it does fit with what I've been feeling about how PD I think isn't quite it, especially after reading here. I actually still do think he has PD traits, but I think they are not the main issue. Hus judgement is just really off in some ways. And it's just not him, it's not at all like he charmed me with one face and then showed me the real one, I know the real him and he is disappearing under quicksand.

[Poison Ivy]

FTD can cause hallucinations.  I hope that is not what your husband has; it is a horrible disease.

[NumbLotus]

There is something really wrong and I feel like I can't describe it. FTD seems very possible. I am now trying to figure out if I can trust people in the psych office enough to call them, tell them he needs to be evaluated, and NOT LET IT BE KNOWN I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

The psych is the only doctor I can imagine getting him to and it seems okay. I know FTD isn't under their umbrella but surely they are trained to look for diseases than can masquerade as mental illness.

I don't get the idea there's much or any help but at the very least I think he may need to be off the antipsychotic. I've wanted him off for a year but he will not even entertain the thought of talking to them about it. Says he feels stable and doesn't want to mess with anything. Apparently it should not be taken with Lewy Body Dementia, for example.

Guys, I am not strong enough for this. I can't drive, I have no energy. I have the brainfor it and that's it. I can't take care of my family. If I were one of you superheroes just taking up all the slack...

When he was in the hospital he cried for the first time I've ever seen him cry and told me if it haplened again just put him in a home.

I can't fucking do this. I can't leave and I can't stay.

[1footouttadefog]

I think a psychologist is qualified to test for dementia.  The initial testing would be questions, history gathering and quizzes and challenges etc. 

They would do some of this with any patient where things were not clear to count out dementia etc, while diagnosing a pd or other psychiatric issue.

Antipsychotics are tricky. Y od has been on some that were not a match for him even though they did help with some symptoms.  He took abilifybforba while, too long actually due to a bad Dr., But that is another story.  Anyway it was not a good drug for him.  He changed to quitiepine and that was much better for years then his blood sugar shot up super high and he is on Latuda now.  It's very good for him and expensive.  I am very grateful that it's covered by insurance due to other meds making him diabetic.  He also takes depakote for anger management and mood stabilization. 

I hope his doctors can help him.  I always relate ot to seeking help for high blood pressure or diabetes.  There is no shame in that, so why shame for any other chemical imbalance in the body. 

[NumbLotus]

Point at a cow and draw a clock will be a total waste of time and add to H's core wound. He doesn't have Alzheimer's.

I'm not interested in "ruling out dementia," I'm interested in *finding out what's wrong*. Andthat's just it, docs will look at a complex issue, make a very simple guess that is wrong, rule it out, and somehow yhat's great news and we're done. Meanwhile I've been chronically ill for 12 years and H is so ill he makes me look functional, and there's no one to help.

There's nothing that can be done for H anyway. I was concerned that the anti psychotic is contraindicated in these neurological cases, so maybe it's making him worse, but maybe it doesn't even matter. I am not likely to pull off a magic trick and get him diagnosed with anything. And I will definitely pay a price for trying.

[1footouttadefog]

I agree that you will likely not find a magic trick to make it better.

What you can do is focus on making things better for yourself. 

Perhaps wrote a list of your daily stressors and see of there are some small ones you can tackle. 

Some models view stress as a points system and reducing by a given percent is the same whether it's don't by changing one large item or several small ones. 

Getting better sleep was a huge need in my case.  I started sleeping on my daughter's bottom bunk or in the living room.  This made me realize just how much my sleep had been intentionally disturbed.  I then set up the basement room as my own studio.  I had had an office when I worked my own business from home so I called it my office at first to avoid conflict. 

I realized I had sore stuff neck and back muscles and bought a small portable bathtub from Amazon that fits in my shower stall.

I realized I was not drinking tea because I was afraid to leave a burner on due to chaos and constant interuptions then noticed how a friend's electric kettle pops off automatically so I bought one. 

My ability to get to church on time was being undermined every week with chaos at the last minute.  With the encouragement of others I started driving separately. 

I took back many areas of my life some only involve a few minutes of a week or day but they add up to having some of my life back and healthy and stress free.  Overall these things became the new normal, and any initial conflict or resistance died off.

I hope you can find ways to improve your situation.  Stay strong.  In the mean time I hope you visit with your mother will prove helpful and that you will gain clarity and information to inform decisions  about what is next. 

[Poison Ivy]

I'm sorry about your situation, NumbLotus.  I wish there was something I or anyone here could do to help you.

[NumbLotus]

Thank you. 

[NumbLotus]

Last night we had a "talk" - as much as one can with someone in PD mode. As an aside, it still strikes me that H is not as PD as many I read about here, though he will defend himself to ghe rhetorical death using all the methods. But he does let a little bit in and cam sometimes admit to things and sometimes apologize.

But again I am feeling strongly that PD is a sideshow here, a relatively minor case (though still very difficult). I am trying not to catastrophize and seize on random Internet diagnoses. I am aware of the pitfalls here, but it's a fact that I have been screaming to myself SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG for several years. Looking at Lewy Body, I can really identify with all the symptoms except not sure about the fluctuations. He has better days than others I guess, but the variations are quite minor.

I see the onset can come with mania. Check.
Hallucinations. Check.
Change in personality. Major check. Changes maybe made the PD stuff either worse or just seem worse.
Apathy.  Big time. I can't imagine a more apathetic person. He confirmed last night he doesn't have anything he wants to do, big or small, and it seemed sincere. It 100% matches with his actions. It looks like depression which is common with LBD.
Unexplained falls. Check. Broke his arm recently. 4 weeks later he fell again pumping gas. That one worried me even more despite no further injury. I suspected some kind of neuropathy but wow LBD was not where I was going.
Loss of empathy. Maybe the oddest thing. One way I feel my H doesn't fit in here is before a few yers ago, he would only lise empathy when triggered. He would be Mr Empathy (and not an act, the real deal) unless I hit his core triggers. And then he could calm down later and be back. Now be seems to have nearly zero empathy even without being triggered. Not even in a mean way necessarily, he just doesn't really care. It used to be if I were injured he would care deeply and take care of me. Same with our DD. now he doesn't really care. Like my Dad with dementia too. This is not him, this is new.
No language difficulties but I've been shocked at his judgement a few times. Bizarre.

Anyway, I thought I'd push again to get medical help. Interestingly I didn't have to. He misunderstood something unrelated that I was starting to say and shut. Me. Down. 100% clear, he does not want me to try to figure out any issues. 100%, he will not be speaking to any medical professional. Loud and clear. 

This is sad but it removes a hurdle. Not only I can't help him but I shouldn't even try. Crystal clear. So I don't need to worry about sickness and health.

[NumbLotus]

I guess I really don't belong here and I may leave pretty soon. But it's been useful.

If it sounds like I've been "diagnosing" my H to his face left and right, I've only suggested PTSD to him, which felt safe because it would literally not be his fault. He swerves wildly between it being ridiculous and "maybe." Right nkw I am feeling he had it years ago and that it's not a factor anymore.

I do like to understand things and figure out what is going on. The PD stuff was helpful, not because H would actually qualify for a doagnosis, but it's a suite of behaviors that are connected and his reactions make more sense to me in that light. I accept them a lot better and manage them better with my knkwledge, even though he does not actually have BPD. I wish I inew about this earlier in our marriage. It could have saved us both a lot of pain. Even if we were doomed anyway.

As for LBD and related, I read up on it yesterday, but I orobably won't read much more or any more. I have no option to get him medical help, so it's useless there. What is incredibly useful is, like with PD, to feel "aha, there is a cluster of sumptoms that are under the umbrella of neurological disease." I really think there is a neirological lroblem. What it is, I can't say. And it doesn't matter. Just naming the category gives me all I need to get clearer focus on the picture.

There are hurdles to clear before divorce. I've cleared "in sickness and in health." I think I've also cleared "what will this do to DD" because I feel that in a few years, everything will be obvious to everyone. I admit there is still a bit of uncertainty left there, but I think it's basically cleared.

Financial issues exist but they exist no matter what my decision is. It's scary as hell but my best chances might be to go it alone, heal for a year, and maybe I can earn a little money again. (My financial lroblems will start in 3 years). Also I will have control over the entire budget on my own.

I still have problems. I want the house. I can't kick H out. I undertand judges tend to award the house to whiever stays. I can't imagine serving him papaers and living a year ir whatever with him until the judgement. I'm not even sure it will be safe. I can't figure that out.

And finalky, in sickness and in helath again - I am not sure he can take care of himself. I cant help him but it's like throwing him to the wolves. It's nkt like just a PD refusing to help themslves. I think he is very ill.

Maybe I really am nowhere after all. My heart is just so broken. I didn't think it could break any more.

There's more. Believe it or not, this is the ABRIDGED VERSION. lol

[1footouttadefog]

I have a VERY similar situation.  My spouse has diagnosed PTSD, bipolar and of, but some thing else, a whole new wave of stuff started in a couple years back
I have been reporting this to his psychiatric care givers. They tested for dementia etc last year so we had a base line, then again, we go soon to hear the results. 

However like you the actual diagnosis likely matters not because the reality remains the same.  Any therapy or behavioural changes will not be participted in or made.  Mine will take meds and that has been helpful with the anger and such it has done nothing for pd over all.

I like you have marital vows to consider.  I also have my own survival and well being to consider.

Quite frankly my spouse is no longer a spouse to me.  I have been in a parental role to home for many years and involuntarily celibate due to his inability to emotionally connected.  He is the denier. 

I see my role only as a care giver who made a promise long ago.  I see my marriage as a group of vows that are niether mutually exclusive or mutually dependent on each other.  He has broken or severed many of these tie deliberately or due to mental illness.  Because I do know him to me phychiatrically disabled I will retain my vow to see after his health etc.  I sickness and in health.

I intend to see to his care whether I decide to stay married etc.  I am in the process of setting up some contengencies for myself to preserve what remains of my life and sanity.

I intend to live away a couple days a week and have a new church and social life as well as start a small business so that my life will be lived regardless of his mental health issues.  Otherwise I would be drug into a solitary muck with him.

My spouse is quite unable to be normal and healthy.  Hoping and wishing and begging etc will serve no purpose.  It was finally accepting that my marriage is over because my husband is unable to be present in it as my reality that brought me peace in contemplating how I can handle this reality and my obligations regarding it.  It starts with I cannot and am not obligated to fix him or expect miracles. 

I write this to say it does not have to be all or nothing and you don't have to do things the way others would.  Outsourcing is an option.  Parents outsource child care and house work, and tutoring, and cooking, and laundry and even send children to boarding schools , summer camps, college dorms, or hire nannies while still being good parents.  This can be true of husband and wife roles as well. 

Think outside the prison cell. 😉