UNPDH wants us to go to couple’s therapy

[Fae Greenwood]

So just another update. He went alone to the last session because I do tend to talk. I am good at covering up the gap in my marriage. Anyway, he came back with homework. He said that we'd been assigned something and he'd explain to me later. That was over three weeks ago and our next session will be in a week. He's said nothing about it. Since the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, I feel confident that he'd get around to it just before our next session or not at all and then blame me because I didn't "make" him do it. Meh. If he wants counseling to be effective, he needs to put in the work on and for himself. I can't do it for him but I've no doubt he'll try to make me responsible for it. I've spent the past two years seeing ever more clearly how alone I truly am in this marriage. When I think of who I'd go to if something bad or good happened, he's not on my short list. It would be more like letting my boss know about a personal issue.

[1footouttadefog]

Mine actually asked me to do his therapy "homework" then blamed me for not helping him.

[losingmyself]

My XH refused to go to the T that I lined up. He wanted to go to someone we already knew, through our business. I tried to explain that that's not how it works, even asked the T if we could see her, she said the same thing...
So I went alone. Therapy never hurts anyone! When I would get home, he'd ask "So, what did you talk about today?" My answer was always the same. "That's between me and the therapist, but you're welcome to come with to the next session, if you'd like"
He never came with. I'm guessing he expected me to do the work, and give him things he could do to say he tried, or something. So, when I said I wanted a divorce, he blamed the therapist. And everyone except himself.
I'm happy he didn't come with. I know how that would have turned out.
I tried once with my current H. That was a mistake.

[Fae Greenwood]

Here is a quick update. Our counselor is apparently functioning under the delusion that I still love my husband and want the marriage to be warm and close and cozy, that all that is needed is me loosening up a bit. We are evidently going to ignore the 12 years since I acknowledged that my uNPDh's behavior was consistent with irritation and mild dislike and not love or attachment, that I have spent over a decade adjusting both my internal expectations and outer behavior to that truth, and that I no longer love him. I love my life that I built because of my marriage. I love our children and grandchildren and love what we can do for them. I love the relative economic ease of my life. I love having access to health care. I love living in a safe neighborhood and driving a dependable car. I wanted  to love the man with whom I could build this and tried to do so for many years but in the end had to accept the truth of his behavior, that what he did was more important than what he said or what I wished was true

Something happened during that solo session with uNPDh. We see her every two weeks and she is surprised every session that we aren't having sex again yet. Oh, and about six weeks ago, he was given the assignment of kissing me good morning, good bye, hello, and good night every day.  I mentioned that I specifically asked for that (five years ago) and was ignored and got back an enthusiastic description of John Gottman. I have accepted my husband's attempts with the best humor I can. And guess who keeps "forgetting." At least he hasn't yet complained that I should be "making" him do that. Of course we'll forget that long ago request and that I tried to participate in for two+ years (iI honored that list by doing that too) and was rejected rejected rejected for everything until the only touching was the most basic of intercourse (as in no cuddling, kissing, or touching except for what he needed to get himself primed) so of course I'm not doing it for him now, the moron. I'm done. I requested years ago 1) good morning/goodbye/hello/good night kiss and hug, 2) please and thank you when asking for something, 3) walking next to me not in front or behind, and 4) not automatically blaming me for whatever has gone wrong and to apologize if he does so,. I think this was a reasonable list. I even pointed out that doing everything on my list would take, at most, ONE HOUR PER MONTH but evidently a woman who desired him emotionally and physically wasn't worth that effort. Too bad I couldn't get these basics from him and too bad my counselor seems to think them unimportant while loving  John Gottman's books.. She should have my husband buy that book, read it for himself, and then do what is suggested. But instead, the focus is on me. I've already changed. Let the man who asked me to help him sleep with other women do the work.

[Whoops]

On couples therapy, we went to SIX couples therapists.   Over about a 30 year span.  I generally couldn't bring up NH's angry treatment of me because -- as another person said-- I would get punished by his anger for several days after. We finally got to the best couple's therapist in town.  She spotted what he was off the bat, I think, and addressed only his issues for about 3 months trying to get him to buy into the therapy.  She told me this at the end of the 3 months. As soon as she started addressing my concerns, which included his angry behavior and his endangering our child by ignoring the child's high risk medical condition, he began complaining that we only talked about my issues!!!  A few months later when he stormed out of therapy because she was trying to get him to understand how his behavior was endangering our child's safety, she told me that he would never change, that he was highly narcissistic, and that he was grossly lacking in empathy and that the marriage was damaging my health along with mental health.

In my experience, h could change behavior only briefly, for a few months, when he was afraid of divorce. It never, never stuck.  I recently learned that is a feature of narcissism. And of the 6 therapists, only that last one really figured out what he was about.  He snowed the rest and they didn't seem to pick up on me being afraid to raise my real issues with him.  I wish for all of us that we not think we need to go to  counseling to check off a box we already  know will not help. I wish for all of us that we can work to listen to our own good sense, because oh boy, we know our N spouses incredibly better than these outside therapists who can clearly be snowed by our N partner.   We are the best judge of how that person treats us, and I wish for all of us experiencing that abuse that we can move toward  trusting our own perceptions.  And I am just making real progress.  My h cheated on me and that made me end the marriage,  but even with that gross sign of his narcissism, it is hard work to counter his gaslighting and trust my experience that his behavior was very often dreadful despite the sort of window trappings of good.

[Fae Greenwood]

Thanks all for your comments. I'm keeping this going partly as a journal of how therapy is going for me.

I've begun to be honest in the sessions. Our therapist has said that she doesn't know who's story is true and that the truth usually lies in the middle. I am trying to not assume husband's motives but describe the behavior alone. He (of course) doesn't remember any of what I describe. So far nothing has come out that I'll regret though I'm still pausing before speaking to self-edit. It's evident to the counselor now, I think, that I no longer love him and haven't for some time. When asked if we still love each other, my answer is "I want a good relationship with husband" or "I love the life we've built together."  She's stated that we have an issue with power dynamic. Wait until she finds out about his attempted affair and that nuttiness.

His behavior is much better and I've praised him for that. He gets that he needs to stop the toxic stuff but he's not replacing it with positive behaviors. And even the toxic stuff wants desperately to spill out. Circumstances meant I had to drive him recently and he was clearly beside himself not criticizing every choice I made. Past behavior says that it's only a matter of time and the ranting and raging and threats will come again, so even with the truth being spoken, medium chill must remain my constant temperature. He used to pull away and I'd  eventually find myself begging for emotional crumbs from him while he smirked at me. Nope, I'm not going back to that.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

For me the couple's therapy we went to, really did damage to me.  Tread lightly - I'm guessing when the therapist said the comment about the power struggle, you might have thought - of course, this is an abusive marriage.  While your husband, might have also been thinking the same thing - but that you are the abuser. 

We ended the couple's therapy after 3 months or so, and all that ended was that my husband felt vindicated and I was more damaged.

I truly hope that your experience is a much more positive one, it really can be.  And, as you are Out of the FOG, you can see the process in a different way than I did.

[Fae Greenwood]

I don't think it's going well. Our counselor said that I tend to go on and on and gave me an egg timer to limit my words to my husband.

She's right. I do tend to drone on. I gave that some thought. I think it's filling the empty space. Empty space with uNPDh is dangerous. It's also a leftover from the time when I believed that if I could just get him to understand how destructive his interactions with me were, then he would change.* I also have disordered thoughts in reaction to the stress his sudden outbursts and random statements bring on, so I tend to leap into verbal action trying to calm things down.  And then I had to quickly address/cover for his behavior with our children. I've spent what must be years of my life going over every possible response he might make to a specific request in an attempt to prepare for any possible reaction and he still catches me out, particularly when he agrees with me. Now THAT is a unicorn moment, with me in a pretty dress swishing about my lovely garden and suddenly startled by this fabled rarity.

*I was wrong.

[Fae Greenwood]

PFNW, I am being careful. Thank you. I did tell the counselor two sessions ago that uNPDh (of course I don't refer to him as THAT in counseling) needs to make better behavioral choices and my part is opening up to allow him to do just that. Yes, I know about the 50/50 responsibility, that was valid before I began realizing how abusive his behavior was. As I began to refuse his abuse, his job was to pull back on it; He has refused. He LIKED how it was. I am not responsible for his behavior and am clearly stating that in every session. I am responsible for MY behavior and also clearly stating that in every session. And yes, he likes his pity parties and so I'm sure that in his head I'm just abusive.

Our youngest daughter was recently married. During the ceremony, he teared up and held my hand. I too had emotions at that time. None were negative about marriage. Just because my husband was a fool doesn't mean marriage is bad. What I felt was pride at what a good job I managed to do raising my children to be such great adults despite my husband's problems. He's a better man for being married to me. I encouraged him to be a better son and brother and father than he was able to be on his own. And I am actually a better person for being married to him. I've learned the value of patience and kindness. My grief is it was through his negative example. I'm happy to offer him friendship now, but nothing more. And I'm done with negative lessons.

[downwiththefog]

I dragged UPDw to therapy 2 years ago under the threat of divorce. She had so far refused any external intervention in our relationship problems.
She had previously dismissed therapy as just a way for Ts to make money out of me.
I had chosen a therapist that on paper could have recognised a PD problem and I was hoping for some magic healing potion for us.
During those sessions I finally and for the first time in life vented out all my frustrations with her behaviours. I was in turn accused of a myriad of faults.
T was naturally finding communication problems and
After a couple of months sessions ended because she could no longer take it.
Since then the sessions have been used as a new accusation against me - all that I said that made relationship worse.

After some two years we went back to T on UPDw insistence, that if I was going to say all the good things she deserves to hear, that would have helped her.
I have been very calm this time and stuck to facts and did not vent my frustration, just exposed my need for quality of life and not continuous conflict and resentment.

The result has been a disaster again, W does not allow me to say anything that is not a glorification of our past relationship.

So, my experience is that anything you say will be used against you. And the presence of a witness (the T) may make things even worse in the mind of a PD partner.

[downwiththefog]

I want to add an almost funny anecdote on an unexpected fallout from a couple therapy session.

More than a month ago, in one of our now very occasional T sessions, I mentioned that uPDw had recently said (for the first time) "I do not want to be buried with you".
It was something I had never heard before, struck me, so I mentioned it in T.

Yesterday night, out of the blue when going to bed (one of her favorite times for coming up with issues) she started to rant about what *I* said.
"Why did you say that ? What did I want to acheive saying that ?"
"It is a private thing that I told you, you are not allowed to share it with another woman"
"If you want therapy to help our relationship, you should tell about the many happy events in our relationship"
... and so on for a long time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Fae Greenwood]

Thank you for all who have talked about their therapy experience here. The core is that couple's therapy can't be successful unless both are able and willing to be truthful with the therapist, their significant other, and themselves. I suspect that that last part is why therapy so often fails with a PD spouse. When my husband looks inward, there's just a yawning expanse of emptiness. 

We've have two things happen recently. The first is that uNPDh, through no fault of his, was laid off. We were considering him retiring early but he's already found another job, which is a relief for me to not only have employer-paid health insurance but this new job means he'll be out of the house much more. Woo Hoo! It has brought to the forefront the issue of what will he do to fill his time in retirement. I again calmly and steadily reiterated that I will not be filling his days for him.

The second is what happened in our last session. First was my husband's complaint about something he claimed I'd said during a previous session. I couldn't remember saying that and truthfully didn't understand what he meant by the phrase he claimed I'd used so I asked for clarification or at least context. He had none. But OUR THERAPIST COULDN'T RECALL THE COMMENT EITHER and she spoke up about that. As a result of him being gently and patiently asked by both me and the therapist to explain what he meant, he shut down. He hunched his shoulders and stared into the distance as the typical covert narcissist response. As I've learned to do, I again calmly stated the question and went into passive waiting mode. No emotional desperate dancing for me anymore. I realized that our therapist was seeing what I'd described with apparent understanding so maybe she is getting it. We left the session with a referral for him to see his own male therapist. Of course he won't go. He's left every session with homework which our therapist doesn't follow up on and he does none of it. The sessions were clearly his way to get me back in line. Oddly, I privately do his homework for myself so I'm getting some benefit from the sessions.

He is now becoming openly angry about the lack of sexual intercourse. We have not yet discussed the reasons I shut that down either alone or in a session, so I'm waiting to see what happens with that. I've acknowledged with the therapist that his behaviors have improved considerably. I've also repeated in therapy that the 12+ years I've functioned with his dislike, a significant double-digit percentage of my marriage, means that I have a lot of healing to do before I'd be a wiling participant in sex again. I have not clearly stated that I didn't have to participate in the act in the end, just be "cooperative" which turned out to be far more damaging than I'd anticipated and so avoided any physical touch with him (which he'd already reduced to physical intercourse alone). I just could no longer endure it. I made the choice then that I would only have sexual contact with someone I liked and trusted and who I believed liked and trusted me in return. That leaves my husband off the list on both counts. Returning to that terrible trauma makes me shudder. He's made a few half-hearted threats about finding relief somewhere else. I suspect he's made a few tentative approaches but he wants a fantasy woman to be on him like in the movies (every sex scene gets the comment "why doesn't that ever happen to me?), another aspect of his covert narcissism.  And, in some job-search counseling paid by his former employer, he had to look back at his most fun time in his career. It was 10-13 years ago, when his treatment of me was so destructive and his narcissism was on open display that ended with his first firing. He's been chasing that high ever since and has continually been slapped back. But it was more confirmation that he is happiest when HE makes me feel bad. You're off the list, buddy.

His job loss was one of my divorce triggers. I chose not to rush to file as leaving is going to be a lot harder than I thought. It's not a bond with him, it's all the social and family and financial stuff that will have to be unwound. I have to mentally and emotionally process that all during 2023 as my final trigger date is still set.

[FuzzyBunny]

Hi, sorry you are going through all of this.
Those with past experiences are wonderful for sharing.
Hope you can find a happy place.
Take care.