Can you maintain relationships with family members who want/try to be ‘neutral'?

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

Hi All

This is my first 'proper' post. I've been NC with my uPDM for nearly 2 years.  From what I've been reading – and suffered - my M shows features of OCPD & NPD. With an amazingly supportive DH, I manage my guilt. Plus reading "But It's Your Family" by Sherrie Campbell was so helpful (thanks Out of the FOG member recommendation).

I have 'let' my two teenage DDs maintain a relationship with their grandmother. Perhaps I have expected too much of my DDs (in terms of maturity) but I want them to have control over the relationships in their life and how they manage them. Generally it has been OK.

Could the fact that my two DDs see their GM undermine what other family members understand? Perhaps they think my uPDM can't be THAT bad if she is still 'allowed' to have a relationship with her granddaughters?

Some family members I used to be close to have tried to be 'neutral' but it feels like they 'side' with my uPDM more – who can appear the most thoughtful & generous person to other people (my enF and I had the brunt of her toxicity behind closed doors). I know my uPDM has told them that 'losing' me was worse than losing her husband (my enF died 2.5 years ago)... and she plays the "I'm respecting OWIU's wishes, but am here for her if she wants me" card, which of course sounds very reasonable. I then appear the unreasonable one for maintaining the NC. Btw, I did offer to have mediation with my M before going NC and she refused.... previous attempts to have family T with my M&D about 5 years ago was disastrous; I realise now she was never going to see the 'truth' of her behaviour and actions.

So 'neutral' family members (aunt, cousins) don't understand really. They thought they could 'fix things' to start with. Now it feels like they think I'm being stubborn or should have 'relented' after all this time (plus uPDM getting older and a global pandemic which is supposed to "show us how important family is..."). Am I being paranoid and unfair to them? Should I just be grateful they are trying to be neutral and have interactions with me (albeit sporadic)? Have any of you managed to have relationships with neutral family members who also maintain a relationship with your PD parent?

[engineer31]

My situation isn't exactly the same; it's my IL's that are uPD. I don't think you're being paranoid and unfair. It honestly depends on the person and how evolved they are emotionally. For example I blocked all of my IL's on social media (MIL, FIL, SIL, BIL and their spouses) however, I still kept DH aunt's, cousins, uncles, etc because they're not part of the problem. I then found out that one of DH aunt's had been sharing with my MIL everything that I was posting on social media. I politely told her that I would appreciate if she not share what I posted with them because I have them blocked for personal reasons. Her response was to unfriend her then and not to drag her into my "drama" with MIL (*eyeroll*). I also found out that another aunt (not on social media) was showing my MIL pics of my kids that I would send her. I asked her the same thing, to not share photos i send her. She agreed she would not. I still talk to her. I do not talk to the other aunt. I felt like that was an appropriate boundary; i have a private account and i blocked them for a reason. If they didn't want to respect that boundary, then I don't need them in my life. There was also one of DH cousin's that went to visit MIL and FIL  years ago for about a week and in that time MIL said some things that said cousin "overheard" and she unfriended me. I asked her about it and asked her what I did to upset her and her response was that it was easier to unfriend me because it's not like we're "close". She added me back, but I def don't go out of my way to talk to her and she doesn't either. I had her so she couldn't see my stuff for awhile so she wouldn't send anything to IL's but I realized that might affect the relationship I have with her siblings, M and D.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Usually your gut instinct is right. I commend you on allowing your children to make that decision. I would like to think when my kids get older, that I will have no problem with it, but right now they are still young and things have only gotten worse with my IL's.

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

Thank you engineer31. Not fair that our lives have to be this complicated, is it? - including having to 'second guess' ourselves and our decisions.  Your boundary setting sounds really good and the fact you 'ask people' about things. Most of my life I've been a conflict-avoider (probably due to my uPDM pulling a DARVO on anything I said or raised) so things just fester inside. Yes, had my kids been younger I would have included them in the NC. Good to get insights and tips from others who are striving to be/stay Out of the FOG. Thanks again.

[Cat of the Canals]

They thought they could 'fix things' to start with. Now it feels like they think I'm being stubborn or should have 'relented' after all this time (plus uPDM getting older and a global pandemic which is supposed to "show us how important family is...").

Are these things said to you or just a feeling you get? If it's a feeling, I'd do my best to give them the benefit of the doubt and let it go. But if things are said directly to you, I would absolutely express a boundary, as engineer31 has suggested.

I'm not NC with my NPD/BPD mother, but almost every time I've spoken with my aunt (mom's sister) over the past 5+ years, she has some manner of flying monkey message for me about how I should call my mother more, etc. It occurred to me only recently that I've never told her I don't like this behavior. So the last time she did it (about a month ago), I told her that I know she means well, but if my mother wants or needs something from me, I'd prefer she tell me herself vs. communicate via third parties. She was a little huffy about it, but she did agree to not speak of it again. Only time will tell if she sticks to it or not. If not, I might stop speaking to her.

I think you could similarly tell your aunts and cousins that you appreciate their concern, but you'd rather not talk about your mother or your relationship with her.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think it is very difficult to in fact be "neutral" when there is a falling out between family members like I and many members on this board have experienced. If the family system is FOGgy, likely the "neutral" people are as well to a greater or lesser degree. Unless the neutral people have very good boundaries, or are so distant anyway that there isn't much relationship to mess up, it's not going to work.

The fact that your family members thought they could "fix this" in the first place raises my eyebrow. Again, boundary issue. What makes a problem between two other people their right and/or responsibility to "fix"? And what does it mean to "fix it" anyway? In my experience, it means a return to the way things were before you rocked the boat. Right back to the status quo that was harming you so much in the first place. The language that you should have "relented" and the pandemic guilt trip indicates to me that these family members are not trying to understand you and be fair so much as they are trying to hang on to the previous version of "normal" for the FOO.

[Andeza]

Since I went NC with my uBPDm, my grandmother has not mentioned my mother once in the handful of times I've called her. She has maintained a relationship with me, with no demands, no questions. I'm cool with that. So I call from time to time, announced the next great-grandchild is on the way, send cards/get letters. Pretty normal stuff.

I have not asked anyone to withhold pictures or information on my behalf. I look at it more as, what's between me and uBPDm is just between me and her and I don't want to involve anyone else in that. I'm not on social media, so that is hugely simplifying. But SIL is and I know my uBPDm friended her a while back and therefore sees all the group cousin pictures with my DS. I decided I don't care. My goal was not to keep her grandchild/children away from her, it was to protect our mental health and remove ourselves from abuse. I've succeeded with that goal, and for me that's all I need.

I would draw boundaries should anyone ask, and I have. The in-laws, having had a NC situation in the past, seem to expect that at some point I'll... I don't know, go back to the way things were? Because they did something similar in their family? My response is always the same: "We're still NC." "I haven't heard anything from her." Etc. But I also don't sugar-coat. It is what it is.

You do what you do not to punish anybody, but rather for your own protection. You have a basic right to do so. No one can take that away and they don't get to decide what it looks like for you. So if they start stepping on your toes about your decision, questioning your whys and why nots, you absolutely get to decide what that relationship looks like, or doesn't, going forward.

[TwentyTwenty]

Sorry you are going through this..

there is no 'neutral'. You can prove it by laying out your exact issues with the abuse you've taken throughout your life to anyone that seems to be 'neutral'. Be specific and give details. You' find one of two things, they reject outright what you claim, or they will side with you to support. But I can almost 100% guarantee that there will be no neutral.

Additionally, in our family, the way this works is this: if you want access to any member of our family, you cannot treat any one member badly, and single them out. You either treat all of us kindly, or you stay away. Forever. End of story.

[theonetoblame]

Early on I tried to maintain contact with those who claimed to be neutral, but it didn't work out. The primary issue I faced was one of being believed, that the truth of how I was treated as a child was not whitewashed and that the chronic gaslighting from my parents about what happened stopped. I had 'gone public' at the time and was openly telling anyone who would listen what had happened. This decision followed the fortification of a wall of denial by my parents which had led me to go fully no contact.

I was so burned out by the denial and gaslighting that I wasn't really able to tolerate people who tried to stay 'neutral' as this ultimately meant would not fully acknowledge the truth of what had happened to me and how damaging and hurtful the experiences were. If they had in fact believed me, remaining neutral would have been impossible. Belief is a yes/no type of thing. At one point a cousin try to say to me that "there's two truths, the one you are sharing and the one you father tells". I found this intolerable, child abuse can not be divided down the middle and neither could I.

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

Totally agree with you, theonetoblame, an absolutely intolerable statement about 'truth'; so sorry a cousin said that to you. You and TwentyTwenty have got me thinking about the fact that I haven't actually shared details (to others) of WHY I'm NC. I thought I was being fairer to these 'neutral' family members – allowing them to still have a relationship with uPDM. But, perhaps, there was/is part of me that fears having things 'downplayed' or not being believed at all.

Like you say, Andeza, it's about self-protection not punishment. Call Me Cordelia, you've got me thinking about 'FOGgy' nature of wider family and – absolutely – 'fix it' means back to before I rocked the boat!!

Cat of the Canals, some things are feelings so, you're right, I can only address things that are said.  Boundaries are definitely key, so I'm really interested in the examples you are all sharing.

Thank you everyone - you are amazing at offering non-judgemental support, reflections & advice..... the experiences you've all had provide such valuable insight. I've been on Out of the FOG since last summer – it was only last year (after a year of NC and things becoming clearer because I'd been 'released') did I realise PD was the issue and I'd experienced childhood psychological abuse.

My DH had said for years (we met 6 years ago) "your own mother shouldn't make you feel this rubbish about yourself". He has also been saying, since NC 2 years ago, that those people who are worth maintaining a relationship with should know / trust that I wouldn't have taken this step (to go NC) unless I HAD to.

Ironically (in a SC/GC type thing?) the rest of the family have benefitted from my NC action – as it's always been the case that when uPDM is not getting on with a person, she's always much nicer to everyone else!

Take care of yourselves everyone and thanks again.

[Starboard Song]

The answer is YES. Yes you can. It is hard, and a risk, but it can be done.

My BIL has remained neutral, as have aunts and uncles, as we went NC with my in-laws. Most have directly said they support us and understand our decision, even as they remain neutral. I think we were lucky.

But remember this: most of us didn't understand our own lives for decades before going NC. So of course others don't get it. It would be an amazing coincidence if they suddenly figured it out the same year we did, let alone month or week.

We've tried to assume good intentions and politely ask inquisitors to respect our very difficult process as we blah blah blah. Losing some collateral relationships is probably common, but it can be minimized through our own discipline and understanding.

We did not allow our son, only 11 at the time, to maintain a relationship. At that young age we believed that doing so trapped us, and it was inappropriate for an abuser to trap us through their relationship with our son. If it had happened any later, that decision would be harder and harder to make.

Good luck!

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

Thanks Starboard Song - yes, even with insight, trying to understand my own life (and experiences) is ongoing!! Your managing of family relationship sounds good.
I often think of the quote "if you find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere"!!

[treesgrowslowly]

I agree with twenytwenty. There is no neutral stance towards child abuse.

I think it takes courage to stand up for yourself the way you have.

I like the quote from Elle Weisel regarding this: there is no neutrality. "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor not the oppressed."

That doesn't mean you can't spend time with certain FOO, just know that at some point when they are asked to decide something, their own integrity is what will either show up or go into hiding.

So many people want relationships to be easy. They don't want to choose sides. They don't want to make decisions that upset their own relationship with the PDs.

For those of us Out of the FOG, we have different concerns and different motivations. Part of how abuse works is that there are bystanders who "remain neutral".

And most of all, we didn't get the luxury of staying neutral. We did the hard work of saving ourselves from future abuse. There's nothing neutral about that.

Trees

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

Thank you treesgrowslowly - you've got me thinking about lots.
Relationships have never been easy for most of us, have they? And the fact we second guess ourselves so much is part of our hard work towards self protection, growth and fulfilment.

[Starboard Song]

Am I being paranoid and unfair to them? Should I just be grateful they are trying to be neutral and have interactions with me (albeit sporadic)? Have any of you managed to have relationships with neutral family members who also maintain a relationship with your PD parent?

Neutrality is a real and valid option for these family members. It is certainly the case that you need to know this: if the circumstance arises that you need someone to take your side or take a stand, will they be there for you? Wanting to "fix it" is decent and kind: in 99% of human interactions it is exactly the behavior we all seek. When we deal with extremely toxic or PD people, we get ourselves on the other side of the looking glass, and we often have to abandon the oridnary rules and resort to NC, for instance.

If you will plausibly need these people to take your side or a stand, then their neutrality is not your friend. But otherwise, regardless of what terrible deed has ever been done, their neutrality is the normal human condition: most of us tolerate amazing things from family and close friends for the sake of family and close friends. Most of us did so in our precise circumstances for DECADES before going NC. I think it is a good idea for us to remember with humility how recently and for how long we tolerated these very same people from whom we now are NC.

You deserve more love in your life and not less. If the family you are speaking of bring you joy, if they respect you when you've explained yourself, if they do not badger you or betray you, if they invade neither your peace nor your privacy, then their neutrality is a blessing and I encourage you to work with them. You'll need to be careful, of course, and you have no obligation to be this open. You certainly never have to put yourself at risk, and never get burnt twice the same way.

[Hazy111]

I think this is  a really good question.

But im afraid if the people who are trying to be neutral dont understand what PD is then i think this is a forlorn hope if they stay in contact with PD members of the family. They are open to "the truth" of PD people which is often a real distortion of events. Its not an even discussion. 

I am in a camp of one, whilst my family of FOO are all in contact. So to any neutral or outsider im the one who appears to be odd.

Anyway, most people want an easy life and have their own problems and worries, why should mine be of any importance to them, its for me to deal with.

[doglady]

Just chiming in with my experience here, for what it's worth.

The short answer for me was, unfortunately, no.

When I called out my uPDm and enF over their lifelong blaming and scapegoating of me, and their denial of such, and their ongoing invalidation and gaslighting, three of my siblings were suddenly nowhere to be seen, despite two of them having stated that they agreed with me (and they had also spent years venting about our dysfunctional family's issues). When the shit hit the fan after I spoke up, these two wanted to remain 'neutral', yet neither bothered with me for about two years and kept up the pretence of happy FOO. I was really shocked, given the views they'd espoused over the years. Yet, I realised that when push came to shove, I was dispensable. I was heartbroken. But I am *very* much over it now. I used to get bitter sometimes when thinking about it, then I remember we all have the right to make the choices that seem right for us.

Somewhat predictably, though, they both reached out to me recently within a couple of months of each other when things were presumably looking less rosy for them, to tell me they missed me.  I guess thy hoped everything would be forgotten and we'd all be cosy again. While I have certainly forgiven them, i wasn't about to have my heart stamped upon again. I couldn't trust them at all by this point and politely said that while it was not an ideal situation I needed to put my mental health first. Rather than inquiring how I was or respecting my needs, both siblings then attacked me, one saying I 'just had to be right' (ironic, since she is a stickler herself for being 'right'), the other gaslighting and trivialising my concerns (while his own were then highlighted as being much more worthwhile). The other brother (uPD GCbro) accused me of of being a bully (this from a chap who has used physical violence against myself and enF, and has engaged in verbal bullying towards all family members for decades). So in my opinion, the 'neutral' parties were actually engaging in a great deal of projection towards me whilst actively protecting my parents, who they all privately profess to not be in the fog about, and who they have admitted on numerous occasions drive them mad. Yet when it comes to standing up to be counted, they have taken the road of least resistance. That's their choice. I accept it. But I'm not letting them back in.

So, in my experience, many people in toxic families are not 'neutral' wherever they may say.

[TwentyTwenty]

So, in my experience, many people in toxic families are not 'neutral' wherever they may say.

Exactly!  Anyone wishing to see if a family member is 'neutral' should perform this test:

Start listing one by one the abuses you have suffered and the boundaries that have been broken, the disrespect you have endured..

You'll get the 'real deal' from them, guaranteed!

There is no 'neutral'. It's a lie. Just another lie.

[Starboard Song]

It very often is true that -- in a crunch situation -- even those trying to be neutral will let us down.

In our case, by brother-in-law and two aunts have been very much neutral for 5 years now and have never let us down. It may be uncommon, but it happens. I don't want folks to get the wrong idea, and start over pruning their family tree out of a fear of nonstop abuse, for instance. They DO need to be a bit vigilant, though, and a touch wary of what they share and how they might put themselves at risk.

[BefuddledClarity]

I would say it depends on how your relative is like.

I'm "neutral" with my brothers and don't have as many problems with them anymore. My eldest brother still lives with my PDmom and interacts with my PDdad(both PDparents are separated). I told my eldest brother my boundaries. If my (nosy & gossipy) mother is around and we're on a phone call, he'll say he got to go and then text me later apologizing for the abrupt stop since PDmother is nearby. My older brother and younger brother still interact with our parents but a much less than elder brother,with the youngest brother being the one who least interacts with parents out of the brothers. I'm the only one that's completely NC and they know why and keep my business out of their mouth when around my parents.((Though I kinda don't care, because I won't be hearing PDparents talk crap anyways, and if they wanna tell our relatives how much of a P.O.S I am, then they can go right ahead.))

Before then, my brothers thought I was crazy, so, I would never bring up our parents and keep mostly LC with brothers if I could. Then they finally came around and said "Man, now I know why you went away from our parents. They act like [insert thing PDparent did]!"

As for "neutral" extended family or relatives...it just doesn't work for me to be honest. They patronize me and say "You'll come around,that's your MOTHER after all. You'll regret it if you don't". Sure, she is my mother but doesn't act like one and I've already reached out and tried multiple times to have a relationship with either parent, it just doesn't work out. I gave up on JADEing and went "whatever you say" and left it alone.

I ended up just cutting off all my relatives except for my brothers. I don't know my dad's side of the family so we are NC by default. I know my mom's side of the family, and most live outside the country, so NC is easier. The ones where we live in the same city, I just ignore. They're extremely dysfunctional and I suspect have "fleas" or are PDs themselves.


As far as children go...I have a child too, albeit he's still a baby. I've made attempts to have PDparents see son and interact, but PDfather shows hardly any interest and PDmother had made some critical comments about baby. For example, before he was born or really, before she knew I was pregnant, she would say that I shouldn't have a baby with partner because it'll come out as a drug baby. Note, I dont take ANY substance at all, my partner smokes greens and she said him doing that will make my baby a drug baby. Then she basically implied her grandson is not that important in her life at all because she doesn't know him and said "The only people I care about are my kids, I don't know grandson". Wow. Anyways, if my kid wants to interact with his grandparents on my side, I'll wait until he's a bit older and explain how they are, but ultimately let him choose if he wants to maintain a relationship. His relationship with his grandparents is separate from his relationship with me. If people want to judge me based on I'm NC with my parents but son is not in the future, they may go ahead. That's their problem, not mine. I'll be happily NC vs being in full contact and miserable. Also, I grew up differently than my son did with PDmother, so of course our relationships will vary towards her. Whether he wants to keep my PDparents in his life or go LC or NC with his PDgrandparents, that's fine.

I've had friend groups back in junior and senior high to where I didn't get along with my friend's friend due to them being toxic and let them know that I'm not friends with said toxic person and would rather they not keep bringing said person up or hang around them when they're around, but also said it does not change OUR friendship, because that's separate from me and toxic person.

I've also had the reverse during my college years/late teens-early twenties where my friends didn't all get along with each other, so I don't hangout with them all at the same time and respected that after one friend told me that X friend makes him uncomfortable/irritated.


TDLR; I would say it depends on if they respect your boundaries or not will determine if you are able to remain neutral with them. My brothers respect my boundaries but my relatives do not, so I'm NC with relatives. Also, you Dads relationship is separate from their relationship with you---and it's not anyone's place to judge you for being NC with your mom while your DDs may not be. They haven't grown up with mother and we're not treated how you were. If outsiders want to judge, that's their problem. Its fine if you want to stay NC! Please don't feel bad.

[TwentyTwenty]

Hi relative X

Hello.

I was abused as a child, and even into my adult life by your (sister, aunt, etc), my mom. She has mental issues.

Oh, well I'm neutral, so I'm not going to take sides, I love you both.

So I wonder then, if she grabbed a belt and began thrashing your son until he's screaming for help and has stripes in his legs, you're still gonna be neutral?

'Fake' peace is not peace at all, it's actually full out war just waiting for the trigger.

Truth is the trigger.

I refuse to live in a lie, or denial of what I have endured because some relatives cannot deal with truth. They can all move along, nothing to see here. Bye! G'bye then!

But that's just me...