Hi
I am looking for others experience of how they approach and manage difficult conversations with their, especially the quiet / covert/ vulnerable type. I'm talking about the need to call out certain behaviour patterns- projection, withholding, general passive aggressiveness. The problem is often at the time due to levels of FOG I have a strong trauma/ freeze response. Years of hypervigilance leads up to a physical trigger response , and my main focus becomes maintaining my emotional safety so needing to politely leave the room / conversation usually with an excuse of some kind. So rather than calling it out and asserting myself I leave and silence myself which feels even worse. I am tired of the drain on my emotional energy, I am angry at how I have abandoned myself and allow others to treat me like this. I no longer want to abandon myself by denying my needs for respect, safety, reciprocity and a whole heap of other things lol.
I guess I'm looking for actual phrases / resources . Im talking about something like this " hi , how are you?" " fine" ( not fine, sigh). " did you have a good day ?" " well yeah, it was fine " ( aggressive tone). Silence. " are you still worried about X/Y/Z ? ( whatever current issue is, trying to provide an opening " well yeah, what do you expect, of course I am ". Silence. " that must be hard " " yeah". Silence. " and what about X/Y /Z " ( aware of now needing to ask questions to keep conversation going) " dont know ( angry tone, silence) " ( sigh) , followed by more mix of anger about someone other person/ issue, all projected to me, then silence, general accusatory/patronising tone etc etc .
At thid stage I just feel triggered. I know this is a boundary issue too around how I allow others to treat me. I am not seen in the conversation, they feel entitled nonetheless to draw from me continuously and there are all kinds of unspoken expectations about me and what I am supposed to be providing- for them. No room for my needs, but projection, entitlement, manipulation, gaslighting, and general crazymaking. But never overtly aggressive enough to call out, just subtle enough to be under the radar.
So what to do ? What to say ? " Im picking up that you seem angry with me about something?" " it's hard for me to have a conversation with you if you are not speaking to me?" . I know that will provoke DARVO and also as it is subtle and passive aggressive it is more easily deniable " angry ? What are you talking about" ?? You've no idea how hard my life is right now etc etc. He has problems for sure, but no intention of being in anyway solution focussed about them. I have empathy for him but frankly I have realised I have fawned for far too long, running on FOG always. I cannot maintain my empathy when this is how he relates.
But I am tired of it now and I feel I need some direction/ some phrases to put a halt on this kind of behaviour and assert my needs, or at least start that difficult conversation. Or some way of verbalising that I need directness in conversation, and long silences make it difficult to converse with them. But I literally feel I cannot find the words.
I know I have no power to control what might come after- DARVO, rage- but at least then I can leave, having asserted /protected myself. I feel if I had some phrases I could practice them in preparation for next time he does this, rather than staying in the conversation and biting my tongue.
Suggestions?
Hello Shappane
I haven't read your other threads, and I am new here, sorry if I give stupid advice. Also I have not read your previous posts, so I may be missing some context.
I have the same problem with freezing. I always clam up, don't say anything, don't talk back since every such experience ended up with being ridiculed or bullied even harder. I can relate to your first paragraph so well.
All I can think reading this is, "Avoid them" or "No contact", because that is the thing that gave me inner peace the last few days. I don't think trying to think of phrases to reply with, or trying to "win" has any hope of success. What do you expect to gain?
Trying to develop a strategy to win against them, beforehand, is just rumination, I think. You're just thinking and worrying about it, and in the end they'll shoot you down anyway. That's how I feel about it. I have spent a disgusting amount of hours "preparing" to fight them. I don't even want to know how many, surely thousands... :/
Sheppane, I'm following this thread because I need help with this too. My sister is very covert. I often don't realize til later in the conversation that I'm being baited and just generally disrespected. I seem to be on some sort of "time delay" where my brain just does not grock what is happening in the moment.
I don't see her often but now my plan will be:
Gray Rock/Medium Chill. I will pretend not to see the "bait" and will sweetly maneuver the conversation to a more "gray, boring" place.
If that doesn't work to get the conversation to a safer place, I will find an excuse to leave the room. I will not accuse her of anything.
I will simply leave.
For example, if she starts getting shrill about how "nobody really seems to care" about some social inequity (and if I don't immediately match her indignation and/or mood about it she starts getting more personal and insinuating that I am not doing my part in creating a just world and that she is more than doing her part), I will innocently say something like "Gosh, yes there sure are a lot of issues that are becoming apparent in the world, and it will be important that they are addressed. Yes, so many important issues."
And I will leave it at that. If she won't back off, and continues to try to bait me or covertly accuse me, I will say "Gosh, I need to go check on my bank balance before I write that check for the rent", and leave the room.
It may seem abrupt to her and I don't care.
If she starts in again on me later, I will do the same diversion as I did before. And if she continues I will leave again.
And then I will know that she will likely never learn and improve, and I will need to limit my contact with her.
Your post reminds me of my uBPD/NPD sister. She often used to talk AT me on the phone. Long lectures and stream of consciousness word salad. She would expect me to listen to her. I often would put the phone down without cutting her off and go into another room then come back and pick up the phone and she was still talking without realising I hadn't been there.
Often she would angrily say that I wasn't talking to her. I would calmly say that I was listening. My rule is to always stay calm. I never usually knew what to say. Rather than challenge her, bring up history or criticise her I learnt to camly validate her feelings. I used to say such things as "Anyone else would feel the same way" or "That must have been very upsetting for you". There are techniques to learn such as "reflective listening" where you repeat back to someone what they have said to you. That way they understand that you have listened to what they have said but you don't have to agree with it. Also you can't reason with someone who is being unreasonable. There's no point.
You can learn to talk about your feelings more. You can begin using "I..." statements rather than "You..." statements. These are all new communication skills techniques that no one teaches you. We all need to learn them in order to act differently, to respond rather than react.
There is an article about react vs respond here from the Psychology Today website https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/focus-forgiveness/201609/react-vs-respond
There are many videos on YouTube about reflective listening and narcissism.
Maybe you need to eventually realise that these people are emotionally blind to your needs and won't ever change. It's not that they won't do it, they just can't. It is beyond them. So you are looking in the wrong place for support and validation. I now realise that about my sister. For years I thought that I could change her, but I can't. That way lies even more trauma and stress. We have our family of origin (FOO) and our family of choice (FOC). Our family of choice are those people we seek out who become our friends, who support us unconditionally. Unfortunately we learn from bitter experience that some family members can't do that. They won't ever change into the people we expect them to be. It's pointless trying to change them, they just can't do it.
Sheppane, I just re-read your post, and want to add this:
I am shocked when I realize how many years my parents and I were willing to indulge my sister in her diatribes against whatever/whoever. We felt obligated to let her spool herself up into a tizzy about whatever subject she felt enraged about at the moment. I don't know why we did it, but I certainly can see where I learned that unhealthy habit of feeling like I owe it people to "hear them out". I learned it from my parents. Sister would get all worked up and sometimes lash out personally at one of us or all of us. She usually was in indignant tears by the end, accusing us of belittling her, even if we barely said a word. Usually we were all just saucer-eyed, mouths agape, wondering what in the world was happening and why. And what our part in it was. And what we should do. Everyone felt like crap in the end.
But not once did anyone "in charge" let her know that we were going to be leaving the room now because she was yelling at us. Not once.
We all froze. And my mom and I would often fawn, at least early in the tirade, because we would feel like maybe we could make things better and soothe her. But then things often got uglier and we abandoned that tactic.
I'm really sad that nobody knew what to do and that I never learned how to handle her. So I repeated the pattern all my life of feeling that I need to "hear people out" and it never ocurred to me that I could leave the situation. I equated leaving them to abandoning them, and that felt cruel. And then I became a healthcare provider and that concept simply got reinforced a thousand fold.
Luckily I've been attracted to some very strong women friends who have taught me, by role-modeling, how to set boundaries. Oh how I wish I'd learned that before middle age.
In short, for me asserting myself means leaving the room. I do not believe that I will ever be detached enough to be able to converse with a PD when they are baiting/projecting/raging. In fact, it may be that nobody, no matter how skilled, could converse with a PD when they are in that state. I think actions speak louder than words, and for me I know that even if I'm rattled I can still remember how to walk out of a room. I am too rattled and triggered by her to try to hold my own verbally against her tactics. She does not play "fair" and I'm not being paid to be her therapist, even if she wanted a therapist.
I hope this helps.
Kat1984 I can relate to your reply. My uBPD/NPD sister can rage and rage. I often calmly left the room to lock myself in the bathroom to get away from her. Then she would continue to rage at me from the other side of the locked door. I learnt to always stay calm and not get on her emotional rollercoaster with her. She used her loud shouting voice as a weapon to abuse me. She would take a long time to self soothe, often leaving still raging slamming the front door behind her after me listening to her for hours and hours. She would say that no one cares which would push all my buttons even more.
Unfortunately I can't forget all those times and they frequently come back to haunt me. I was left shaking and bewildered. The adrenaline surging around my body. I was terrified. I explain it to others that it was like living in a war zone never knowing when the next bomb would drop. I never knew how she was going to behave. Other people can't possibly understand what it is like unless they have experienced it for themselves.
On several occasions my elderly parents and myself were in tears not knowing what to do to help my sister. If they asked her to calm down that would inflame her even more. You can't be rational with someone being irrational. There is no point.
You are not alone. We are not alone.
I read your posts. It's eery how similar some things are, what Kat1984 said about being baited. It just gives me flashbacks to, really, how my entire family is. I've finally managed to calm down after some rough days. Still dreading the next time I see them though. Feeling guilty about possibly going NC.
Kat1984, don't you think your mind games and tactics will just encourage them to continue?
Your boundaries are yours. You don't have to tell anyone about them. You don't have to make a big announcement. You can gradually change things bit by bit if you want to. It's up to you. You are taking back control.
You could delay answering messages and not taking calls immediately. You could set time limits for how long you stay in someone's company, how often you see them or stay talking to them. It's what I used to do. It can be very empowering just making a few simple changes, which others won't even realise.
You have choices. Maybe for the first time you realise that you do. Doing nothing is still a choice. Not reacting is a choice. Staying calm is a choice. You decide what you want to do.
You need to look after yourself first. No one else can do that for you. Don't ever feel guilty for doing that. You need to put your needs first. It's OK to do that.
Sheppane,
I think this a question/need most of us come to the site with:
I'm talking about the need to call out certain behaviour patterns- projection, withholding, general passive aggressiveness.
I think the desire behind this is to get them to acknowledge their behavior and change it, that there's a way to get through to them in a way that will get them behave differently. The short answer is that if you're dealing with someone who really is disordered, there isn't. The only thing you can. change is how you react to it, mainly by refusing to engage and keeping the subject's superficial, because you aren't going to have a meaningful conversation about anything. Here's how that same conversation would go with M using Grey Rock/Medium Chill (and believe me I had this one a lot):
hi , how are you?" " fine" ( not fine, sigh).
( ignores bait, which it is). "that's great! (Talk about your day, the weather, etc). And your day?"
" well yeah, it was fine " ( aggressive tone). Silence.
'Cool. (Insert mundane conversation here).
(eventually, because you haven't taken the bait) " I'm really not fine at all." Silence.
" that must be hard "
" yeah". Silence.
(changes topic back to something mundane. repeat as necessary)
Is this a gratifying conversation to have that acknowledges your feelings? Nope. But that's not going to happen, they genuinely don't care, and any fuel you add to the self-pity party or sulking or tantrum or whatever they're up to just encourages them to keep it up or escalate the behavior. Like a small child, any attention is better than no attention, and the only way to win is not to engage. Walking away when keep it up is actually the best thing you can do often.
Thanks everyone for your replies. Apologies I am having some IT issues here so I won't reply to each individually.
But lots to think on. One thing that strikes me is as someone put it the desire behind the need to call out these behaviours. In many ways for me it has a lot to do with standing up for myself and being able to say what is and isnt ok in other words it is me expressing my boundaries . I know this doesn't change the other person and I am accepting of that, that their behaviour is outside of my control. I'm trying to just look at my side of things and clearly see what is and isnt ok and how to communicate that.
Perhaps that is just rumination though as someone said, and maybe it is " trying " to find a solution. What's likely is no matter how I word it, it will have the same effect, provoke the same response.
But it seems important to me for myself and my self worth that I can actually address it verbally directly with them at the time - before I end conversation/ leave room if it escalates further. I think I am trying to find my voice and not just be silent, which is very triggering for me. It also feels like the right thing to do - to say what bothers me- and if they don't like it that's on them. I guess from my part Im wanting to communicate directly and clearly with them, so at least I know my part is "clean". Their part is their part.
I also see the logic of ..just dont waste your energy. I don't want to waste my energy on them but I do want to begin showing up as myself, and that means being calm, direct and assertive, not tolerating abuse and leaving when Im done. I'm trying to find a way to do that for me, and to know that I am doing my best in this relationship, and everything else is outside my control. It will not change their behaviour and I have no control over their response but I feel I need to do it at least once. If it provokes full on DARVO well I'll know I tried, and they will know my boundaries.
Does that make sense ?
" I do not believe that I will ever be detached enough to be able to converse with a PD when they are baiting/projecting/raging. In fact, it may be that nobody, no matter how skilled, could converse with a PD when they are in that state"
Kat1984 I missed this first time round. That's a very good point . Am I looking for the impossible, trying to find skills to stay in a conversation with projection/rage/ baiting. Perhaps I am.
Sheppane, what you say makes total sense! You said it very well and I think most of us feel that way, that we just want to be able to state the truth.
The unfortunate thing is that very often, the predictable response of a disordered person is to lose their #$@% when you do this. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire; they gaslight, rage, and basically throw a tantrum. As Kat1984 described, it ain't fun. What I did, and others have done, is state my case once, in a letter. A lot of people would say that its better to just burn the letter but, like you, I wanted to finally be able to state the facts. I don't at all regret it, but I will say its the last communication I ever had with my mother. She spent the next year and a half going through here phonebook and telling everyone she met that I was crazy, a liar, immature, childish, selfish, and that there had always been something 'wrong with me'. This included my cousins, aunts, and my husband. She told my favorite cousin I was a bitch (which crossed the line for said cousin). She died without ever acknowledging any of her harmful behavior and sticking to her story. PDs are unfortunately very predictable and its good to be forewarned about the likely reaction, as any attempt to stand up for yourself will most likely be seen as a personal attack and met with a disproportionate amount of rage, gaslighting, and/or self-pity. It sucks, but there it is.
Thank you Pseudonym, I really needed to hear that. I'm dealing with some stuff with M (long story, don't wanna hijack here), and what you said really applies. Now, if I could only have it make the trip from my head to my heart. It is just so damn hard to accept and it really hurts.
I am sorry others have experienced this, but grateful that you share your story and your wisdom :)
Free2BMe I'm sorry you are going through the same. It is very painful. But I know what you mean about the journey from head to heart and perhaps I need to do that more too.
Pseudonym thank you for this reminder. I'm so sorry you had that experience but yes you are right, there is a predictable nature to the response and that's where the grief comes in I guess. Funnily enough I had exactly that experience with another family member before , calmly stood up for myself ( on receipt of abusive behaviour) and suddenly unleashed an unreal episode of rage and gaslighting. I never got an apology, but an " im sorry you got upset" and I made the decision at the time to forget about it. But the relationship, from my eyes, is forever changed. And it made me see how sometimes its not that people wont behave in an appropriate way, they cant. It's just not on the table.
So yes in this instance I don't know why it would be any different, in which case why am I so concerned about asserting my self when I know what it will lead to ?
I think perhaps it is because the fog has lifted from my eyes in terms of how much I have tolerated in terms of triangulation, how much I give over my energy to this dysfunctional and toxic behaviour, how I justify, minimise, and make excuses for it. There's always some "reason " or "context". So next time round it feels like I need to call it out the baiting/ projection, or whatever it is. But thank you for the reminder/ warning. I need to know what to expect..maybe I have not fully accepted all of this and I'm still hanging on to a small thread of hope. Knowing I can't change them, but still somehow wishing that if I call it out that will make things better for me. It might make me feel stronger for me that I stood up for myself, but ultimately more pain more DARVO. May be I need to see it all to accept the reality.
Thanks so much everyone
Sheppane,
OMG the "im sorry you got upset" makes me so mad. How many times did I hear that one?
Free2Bme, I'm sorry you're dealing with that, it really does suck. It helps to talk with other people who've been through the same thing, but it doesn't make it suck less.
I forgot to tell you, one of my favorite people to listen to on the subject of PDs is Les Carter. He's very calming and good at making you realize that its not you with the problem. Here's one on the subjects of narcissism and truth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rboCAJKMYrQ Hope that helps a little.
Sheppane, I'm so right there with you on this.
One of the things I've learned in therapy is just how terrified I am of being DARVO'd. My sis raged at me two years ago, which was the first time in many years that I had been her very clear target. Well, I had been "working on myself" with Buddhism and other self-help techniques. So I was a calm observer rather than a helpless victim during that rage. I did not react the way she wanted. Frankly, my calm response surprised me as much as it probably surprised her.
Well, of course I got DARVO'd, because I did not properly quake in fear as she wanted. When I addressed her behavior by email, I got long screeds by email, accusations galore. It took me two years and lots of therapy to recover from the DARVO. Now she 's trying to pretend nothing happened. No doubt her story will be that "Kat simply is too sensitive and cannot handle a little constructive criticism. That's why we're estranged. Someday I hope Kat will see how petty she is being and we can be friends again."
So as much as I'd like to call out her behavior and let her know that the road to rebuilding trust in our relationship would start with her acknowledging that I did not deserve to be yelled at and belittled (I'm not even asking for an apology, mind you), I am too frightened to do that. Her words still have power over me. Less than they did two years ago, but they still have power. Although I remained calm while she yelled at me two years ago, I was very much traumatized by her words and actions during the rage and after. After all, she knows exactly which words will hurt me the most.
I guess I don't trust myself not to get pulled under again. And I know that if she catches even a whiff of my expectation that she take responsibility for what she has done, there will be a swift and sure "punishment" for me. In fact, that tactic has kept most people in her sphere under her control her entire life, I'm sure. Everyone is just a little bit afraid of her, and she has us well-trained.
I, too, feel a huge frustration that I am unable to speak my truth to her. In fact I'm guessing that not being able to be honest with her about what I see is what is keeping me a bit "stuck" in my recovery. I want her to know that I "get her". I get it. I see her charade. I know what she is doing to me and to others. I'm not stupid. I'm not naive (anymore). I haven't decided quite what to do yet in terms of what I will eventually say to her.
I wish you the best in your journey and I hope you know you are not alone. It is the sign of a healthy person to want things to make sense. We are healthy, and they are not. :bighug:
Kat1984,
I could have written what you wrote about my M, particularly this part:
I want her to know that I "get her". I get it. I see her charade. I know what she is doing to me and to others.
What helped me in my getting better, and maybe it will help you, is realizing that with my M, I got it, but she did not get herself. Truly disordered people fully believe the false reality they live in, they cling to their false self as if their life depends on it, because in a way it does. I spoke to an expert in PDs once who told me that to someone with a PD, they see their choices (unconsciously) as clinging to the false self or utter despair, and they will destroy anything and anyone to avoid despair. I think this is why confronting them is so futile, they lack the ability to self reflect, so when you call them out on who they are they genuinely believe you are the one who's crazy, because they themselves can't see the charade.
I don't know if you ever watched Westworld, but in it, the host robots believe the false theme park world in which they live is real. When they are shown evidence that it's not, or that they're robots, they simply can't see the evidence. They see nothing, because their programming won't allow it. I always wondered if whoever thought this clever idea up had someone with a PD in their lives.
So familiar. So very familiar. Calling out behavior or tone feels good and for myself I did but I took the answer at their word and had to totally ignore the tone.
How are you?
Fiiiine *sigh* [I'm hearing tone and sigh baiting me for more]
Oh good! [Choosing to ignore the incongruency of tone compared to words] So how's XYZ situation?
I'm still worried of course [again tone]
You ok?
Suuuure am [sickening sweet tone] / or else some snot sarcastic answer
Well good then / Bummer hope it gets better
Well gotta run / get cookies out of oven / oops delivery just arrived
Exit
I've reduced the number of times I choose to subject myself.
Last time I got some sarcastic slap from sib I called it out "oh wow that hurts" and got a flurry of messages back with excuses, backpedaling, mixed with "you're being so sensitive" messages and "can't you let anything go" accusations. Insane like 4 messages in a row and because I wasn't responding quick enough was then accused of holding a grudge within like 30 seconds.
Haven't reached out since and no one reaches out to see how I am ever so I'm sitting back to enjoy the silence. However my brain sometimes spins. At first I told myself I'm trying to figure it out or make sense of it. First of all you can't make sense of it because it's insane and disordered behavior. Second I'm really not trying to make sense of it when it comes right down to it - I just wish they weren't disordered. I wish they were like regular people who respected me and accepted boundaries and followed basic social courtesy. But they're not.
So difficult conversations with PD? I just don't anymore unless absolutely necessary and there's very little these days that is absolutely necessary because if something was necessary the police or emergency room would call me.
PS please remember to be gentle with yourself.
There are two parts to this: self protection and self esteem.
Nothing absolutely nothing is going to change the way they interact with you. The three C's rule: You didn't create it, you can't cure it, you can't control it.
"some phrases to put a halt on this kind of behaviour and assert my needs" not possible.
Calling out their behavior, medium chill, ways of communicating, all these various techniques are for you and you alone. They are not protecting you. As you mention they often trigger rage and other Hoover's. They are for your self esteem, to claim your human rights.
I called out uPDm passive aggressive attacks and she flew into rages, I calmly responded, she flew into rages. Nothing changed because I was never going to meet the very high expectations she had and I wasn't doing what she wanted me to do. I was living my life and that just was not allowed. I felt good about myself but I still needed the second step...
Self protection is another thing: the boundary of you walking away, ending the conversation, leaving the room, deciding when you've had enough.
--> every single interaction with a PD person is going to result in damage. Prepare going in, do your best to manage the impact, practice good self care when you're done with the interaction.
You must choose between your peace and theirs. It's the ultimate no win situation. The ultimate double bind.
Quote from: guitarman on August 25, 2020, 11:20:37 AM
Kat1984 I can relate to your reply. My uBPD/NPD sister can rage and rage. I often calmly left the room to lock myself in the bathroom to get away from her. Then she would continue to rage at me from the other side of the locked door. I learnt to always stay calm and not get on her emotional rollercoaster with her. She used her loud shouting voice as a weapon to abuse me. She would take a long time to self soothe, often leaving still raging slamming the front door behind her after me listening to her for hours and hours. She would say that no one cares which would push all my buttons even more.
Unfortunately I can't forget all those times and they frequently come back to haunt me. I was left shaking and bewildered. The adrenaline surging around my body. I was terrified. I explain it to others that it was like living in a war zone never knowing when the next bomb would drop. I never knew how she was going to behave. Other people can't possibly understand what it is like unless they have experienced it for themselves.
On several occasions my elderly parents and myself were in tears not knowing what to do to help my sister. If they asked her to calm down that would inflame her even more. You can't be rational with someone being irrational. There is no point.
You are not alone. We are not alone.
Thank you guitarman. I've read your posts for quite a while and I think our sisters are pretty similar. Unfortunately for us. I really appreciate your wisdom.
Quote from: Psuedonym on August 26, 2020, 12:58:07 PM
Kat1984,
I could have written what you wrote about my M, particularly this part:
I want her to know that I "get her". I get it. I see her charade. I know what she is doing to me and to others.
What helped me in my getting better, and maybe it will help you, is realizing that with my M, I got it, but she did not get herself. Truly disordered people fully believe the false reality they live in, they cling to their false self as if their life depends on it, because in a way it does. I spoke to an expert in PDs once who told me that to someone with a PD, they see their choices (unconsciously) as clinging to the false self or utter despair, and they will destroy anything and anyone to avoid despair. I think this is why confronting them is so futile, they lack the ability to self reflect, so when you call them out on who they are they genuinely believe you are the one who's crazy, because they themselves can't see the charade.
I don't know if you ever watched Westworld, but in it, the host robots believe the false theme park world in which they live is real. When they are shown evidence that it's not, or that they're robots, they simply can't see the evidence. They see nothing, because their programming won't allow it. I always wondered if whoever thought this clever idea up had someone with a PD in their lives.
Thank you Pseudonym. Your words do help me a lot. They are a reminder of how very desperate these PDs are. They literally feel they will die if they don't protect their fragile self-image. It's a perception disorder. Maybe sort of like a very thin person with an eating disorder who sees themselves as fat....not sure if that analogy is good but maybe it can remind me that this really is an illness. That helps me depersonalize it, and then I don't ruminate so much. Thank you.
Kat1984,
I'm really happy that helped a bit and I think your analogy is very accurate. I think that it wasn't until I went NC that I truly realized how disordered and how entrenched in her version of reality that my M was. As my H put it, she had one remaining close relative (me), and all she had to do was agree to change her behavior going forward to still have that. I wasn't even looking for an apology. But nope, she couldn't even lie and make a half hearted attempt at change without really meaning it. She chose to go to her grave claiming she was wonderful and had never ever done anything less than wonderful. It's completely nuts and self destructive, but there it is. :stars:
:bighug:
Quote from: guitarman on August 25, 2020, 01:58:24 PM
"You have choices. Maybe for the first time you realise that you do. Doing nothing is still a choice. Not reacting is a choice. Staying calm is a choice. You decide what you want to do."
Wow to guitarman. This is the heart of it. It's not easy to do nothing- but yes- it's a choice and it's a response. Thinking of you. I'm trying too right now.
for me conversations are the most vulnerable thing, I mean, it's pretty difficult, I'd say it's impossible sometimes