Success Setting Boundaries with BPDr

[AvoiderOfPotHoles]

Just wanted to share a success story.  Extremely BPD relative (BPDr) has aggressively pressured marriage partner (MP) and self for children - not just to have them - but to have children and give BPDr our own baby - and - if not a baby  - the physical donations needed to make one.  Our multiple and repeated "No" was/is so loud it can still be heard echoing throughout the galaxy.  Unfortunately, our "No" has fallen on BPDr's selectively deaf ears since clear actions seem to be the only message BPDr hears.  In the totally,  disturbing, logic-less land of BPDr, they were/are entitled to this demand because .... insert fallacious, delusional reasoning  (finally realized for myself that trying to understand BPDr's reasoning would require the same level of an almost complete lack of access to agreed upon, objective reality that BPDr has and is of no benefit to me.) 

MP is low contact with BPDr.  I am no contact.  Nevertheless, BPDr recently sent MP email copied to two relatives with poor boundaries (RPBs), who are new parents.  In it, BPDr paired a positive, thoughtful action (bait) with a guilt-inducing complaint (help seeking) about BPDr's stated problem of unwanted childlessness.  The meaning conveyed indirectly but clearly was that MP was/is to blame for BPDr's unwanted childlessness.  BPDr is a classic help seeking/rejector.  BPDr manufactures problems with the goal of controlling others while appearing to but refusing to solve their own problems themselves.    The pattern BPDr has is to manufacture a strong emotion triggering problem - like unwanted childlessness.  Induce guilt to be paired with an inappropriate, "unspoken/but strongly implied" help-request - I'm family, I deserve family too, MP has to help me.  Goal - get others to do tasks BPDr is capable of doing but refuses to do themselves to solve their own problem - like refusing alternative reproductive/adoptive/fostering options.  BPDr left that last part out of the email.

When people or relatives with poor boundaries (PPBs and RPBs) are hooked (often by a sense of misguided do-gooding and intentions to be helpful), and they try to help solve BPDr's problems, fault-finding, sabotage, and rejection follows.  Why?  BPDr's true goal is to control others.  RPBs were manipulated into emotionally care-taking BPDr, who pulled their new parenthood care-taking strings.  Cue violins and Itzhak Perlman puppets.  This also seems like BPDr was seeking to triangulate and bully MP to comply with their inappropriate demand by involving RPBs.  RPBs (who react out of FOG - fear, obligation, guilt) attempted to soothe inconsolable BPDr with reassuring words of comfort that BPDr rejected. 

MP instead of choosing the silent, peace keeper role, which would've enabled BPDr's inappropriate behavior, responded by email appreciating BPDr's positive action and setting a limit that BPDr's own unwanted childlessness is an off limits topic (MP's stuff/BPDr's stuff - emphasis on their separateness.)  MP put that inappropriate baby begging right back in BPDr's court - and included suggestions for resources BPDr can seek out on their own - or at least without MP - to address their own problem themselves.  MP copied RPBs to make it clear to the family at large that as far as MP is concerned - reproductive matters are private and not up for discussion among anyone outside of those directly involved. 

MP refused to allow BPDr to hijack the story by generating a false narrative that MP is to blame for BPDr's unwanted childlessness, refused to be held responsible for BPDr's problems, and publicly put the responsibility for solving the problem BPDr has back with them.  The best part is, BPDr said they won't share anymore and we can only hope that's true.  Later, BPDr tried to deny blaming MP for their unwanted childlessness to RPBs in person; BPDr wanted to talk, i.e. take a tank ride over MP's boundaries. 

BPDr gaslights - tries to rewrite history to be consistent with their own distorted/non-reality based thoughts and feelings.    BPDr also uses the defense of denial too and blames others for all their problems and refuses to take any responsibility for their role in any social interaction.   MP held their ground and BPDr backed off after MP remained calm and used I language ... When you X, then I feel Y ... Here are consequences .... If you X, then I will Y ... BPDr then admitted that other RPBs feel BPDr should accept the pain of unwanted childlessness.  This was boundary testing - BPDr continued to discuss the topic MP banned.  This was likely also a last ditch (but unfortunately not the last) attempt to make MP feel responsible for their solving their problem yet again.  Result?  BPDr did not succeed in controlling MP, did not get their way, was publicly confronted for their inappropriate behavior, and BPDr publicly shamed themselves by showing how out of touch with reality they are to their family at large through their own words and actions.  Hopefully, BPDr can use any pain they have felt from this experience to grow and behave more appropriately by working to solve their own problems themselves.  Most likely, without some internal motivation to change, BPDr will simply take the gross, inappropriate baby begging to another person who is more easily manipulated by guilt, fear, and obligation - who is "too nice", and/or too confused, and/or too afraid to openly confront their inappropriate behavior. 

Regardless, we have a consistent message backed by actions that BPDr's inappropriate behaviors will no longer be silently tolerated by MP.  I've been and continue to gather strength and insight from all the generous people who have shared their painful interactions with people like BPDr, who refuse to help themselves.  I hope this message helps all the posters whose words and stories have helped me and all of the people suffering and struggling to cope with the harmful effects of dealing with people like BPDr, who refuse to take responsibility for their own life and for solving their own problems.  It takes time and effort, but it's worth it to learn how to protect ourselves and our loved ones, by simply identifying and avoiding the damaging potholes in life.  We did not make them.  We cannot fix them.  We can only control how we respond to them.  We can choose to go a different way even if we have to make our own path.  That road leads to inner peace and freedom and my greatest hope is that we all find it. 

[WomanInterrupted]

Welcome to the forum and hello!   

Good for you and your MP!  Very nicely done!   

Now watch it all come to naught when she ignores MP's words and pretends to have "forgotten" - or gaslights and says MP *never said that* or didn't mean it that way.   

MP gave her a list of resources, which she'll never utilize.  Why?  She just "can't, " or, "couldn't."  That'll probably be the reason - it was the usual reason I got from unBPD Didi (my so called "mom") when I told her to call Meals on Wheels or Merry Maids, instead of hinting that "somebody" (me) should be feeding her and cleaning her house - things she was perfectly capable of doing herself, but she just didn't *want* to, so it somehow became my problem.   

She just couldn't.  So I'd tell her I didn't know what else to say and can't help her - and she'd usually slam the phone down in my ear.   

You know the relationship  is *that* bad when her slamming the phone down is the *best* possible outcome to a call.   

I think your BPDr won't contact the services your MP provided because she (I'm assuming - if I'm wrong, please forgive me) already knows she won't pass any sort of psychological screening process, and will fail the interview process abysmally, when it comes to adoption and fostering.

Yeah - she puts you down as references.  You're not going to lie, just to shut her up - you'd be doing any child a disservice.  I'm living proof of it.  (I was adopted, back when unBPD Didi was able to keep it together long enough to snow people).

Just imagine if it were to come out from the references that this person spends a great deal of time trying to convince people to have children, just to give them to her, or trying to con others out of their newborns, or uses that newborn as a weapon to try to get you to produce a child for her.

That's REALLY sound thinking - NOT.   

If there's no psych screening with IVF, and it's only reliant on her own health, the cost of IVF might make it impossible.  If BRPr starts hinting or whining about it, I'd advise MP to tell her to start a Go Fund Me page and never bring it up again.   

I'm *really* surprised the, "When you say X, I feel Y" thing actually worked with BPDr, because Didi would have just screamed, "I don't fucking CARE how you feel!  I WANT...(insert impossible demand here)!!!!!"   

Yeah - she was a REAL gem, that woman!   

Here's another bit of insight about BPDr, having grown up with unBPD Didi - she really doesn't want a baby or a child, no matter how much she protests her childlessness.

She wants the *idea* of a child, who will be perfect, have no needs, and look at her with adoring eyes at all times.   The child will only say, "I love you!" and, "You're the best mother, ever!"

I'm child-free by choice (a fact that unBPD  Didi *hated), but know plenty of people who have kids.  I imagine you do, too - and you know what reality with babies and children is like. 

It's MESSY  - and chaotic.    There are diapers to change, doctor appointments to go to, there's usually some puke to be cleaned up or stickiness to be removed from little hands, feet and mouths, food to be cleaned from the walls and floor, lots of laundry to do, toys everywhere, lots of shrieking laughter, sharp sounds and loud, annoying toys, waving arms, pumping legs, eating paste, the fixing of impossible things with half a roll of scotch tape - and there's always that ONE drop of paint that gets stepped in and tracked through the house to the point it looks like the entire gallon has been spread around.   

That's just some of the reality with children  - and doesn't include the involvement that comes when the kids go to school.   

Didi just expected me to sit there and smile, but I was a human baby and human babies don't do that.  That was my ultimate failing, in her eyes - I was an *individual* - and a very strong willed one - and I was left-handed, which she tried to discourage by tying my arm down, until her doctor yelled at her and told her to STOP because she was causing all kind of developmental problems.   

Didi did NOT want a child - she wanted a DOLL, and I'm willing to bet that's what PBDr  really wants, too.

IME, it's pretty much impossible to lay down a boundary with an unBPD person, because in their minds, "You can't tell ME what to do!" - which means  looking at what comes next, in the event  BPDr tries *this* Mobius-loop of logic:  "I know you asked me not to talk about being childless and I'm not, but in my childless state..."   

I'd advise MP to drop the rope  and join you in NC.  It's the only peace you'll ever have, as long as you're of reproductive age - and long after, I'm afraid, because *they never let go of a slight or injury, real or perceived.*   

BTW - it's a GIANT red-flag and HUGE no-no to insert yourself in the reproductive choices of others, unless directly asked about something.  If MP were to loudly state, "Nobody CARES what you think.  You don't get a say.  If you ever bring it up again, it'll be the last time we discuss anything." - it won't go over well, but at least MP will by *crystal* clear before considering NC.   

You're absolutely right - it's the 3 C's - I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it.

Sometimes all you can do is walk away from it, for your own sanity. 

Trying to manage it gets pretty damned exhausting!

[Thru the Rain]

Just wanted to share a success story.  Extremely BPD relative (BPDr) has aggressively pressured marriage partner (MP) and self for children - not just to have them - but to have children and give BPDr our own baby - and - if not a baby  - the physical donations needed to make one. 

Wait....What??

Your MP's relative wants MP and you to make a baby and hand it over?

I had to go back and re-read that. I'm stunned. If I were asked that, even by someone I was extremely close to, I would need some time to regain the power of speech. And then the only possible answer would be No.

For some background, I'm childless too. Initially this was decided by circumstances - serious health problems for both DH and I.

But after many ups and downs, we have realized that God or The Universe or Mother Nature or A Higher Power has decided this is the life we will have. We adore our nieces and nephews, and have come to accept our childless-ness enough that most people have no clue this wasn't an active choice on our part.

We ALL have to play the cards we're dealt, including BPDr. And if BPDr doesn't like it, that's really too bad, so sad. And 100% not anyone else's responsibility to fix.

Good for your MP for sticking up for your FOC and declaring this topic off limits. You and MP sound like a good team!

[AvoiderOfPotHoles]

Dear Woman Interrupted:

Thanks so much for your supportive and kind response.  Your intuition and understanding of the situation is accurate and it sounds like it is unfortunately because you had the painful experience of having someone like BPDr for a "mother"  (in quotes because it's sounding like she was "mother" in name in only - and behaved in a cruel, abusive way towards you.  I'm so sorry you didn't have the loving Mom you deserve.)  So, yes, BPDr is a she.  I find that because infertility is such an emotionally triggering issue for many people, my experience is that I have received limited support or compassion for MP or myself being on the receiving end of BPDr's abusive behaviors in the past.  We aren't distancing ourselves from BPDr because of the pain of her unwanted childlessness, we are distancing ourselves because BPDr has behaved abusively towards us and tried to use - the pain of unwanted childlessness - to excuse her cruel actions and absolve herself from the consequences of her abusive actions.

BPDr has a long rap sheet of abusive, inappropriate behaviors and like many who have BPD, has had many social, work, and legal problems as a result.  Unlike, your DiDi, BPDr is unable to pass.  BPDr is universally disliked especially by those who know her well.  It's extremely unlikely BPDr would ever list us as fertility/adoption/fostering references.  If she did, MP and I would truthfully share our painful interactions with BPDr and our consensus that she is most definitely not able to serve as a competent, caring mother.  We feel like you do that BPDr does not want a baby to give the child love, warmth, and support but rather she would attempt to use the baby to fill her bottomless, endless, impossible for any person to fulfill, black hole sized, unmet needs.  I think BPDr would probably abuse the child in any way she could, once her delusion that the child could fill the infinite, black hole sized, void inside of her that she refuses to take care of herself was shattered.  The only one who could care for BPDr's massive unmet needs is her.  We really hope BPDR seeks the professional help she desperately needs so she learns how to do that for herself and which MP has urged her to seek on multiple occasions. 

MP and I are also childless by choice and I look forward to the day when stating that requires no more explanation than stating that you have children.  I've never met even one parent who mentioned their children and then felt the need to immediately state all the reasons they thought that were qualified to have them and/or had excellent reasons for having them - ever - and I'm confident I never will.  The qualifications for being a parent seem to be a sort of default given - pre-loaded with social approval and imbued with a sense of morality - that one is a parent - no further words needed, regardless of how qualified or unqualified that parent is, and I look forward to the day when not being a parent is an equally valued, socially acceptable, respectable moral choice - and the implication is no longer that simply being a parent means you love children, (so many posters here can verify that is not the case having experienced abusive, loveless mothers and fathers firsthand) and being childfree no longer implies you hate/dislike children - and is no longer a taboo topic that seems to invoke pre-loaded questioning and explaining, which is very reminiscent of JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain, endless loop.)   I guess society is a borderline because it says one thing and does another - all the time.  I digress.

Yes, so MP and I have never had or wanted children of our own.  We both decided this long before we met or married and were thrilled to find we were in agreement before we tied the knot because this was a definite deal breaker for both us in the event the other needed parenthood to have a fulfilling life.  We've been very open and clear that we are childfree with our family and society at large and we are very happy and satisfied with our choice regardless of what anyone else thinks.  BPDr demanded/demands a baby anyway or MP's sperm .. because ... entitled.  It feels as if having unwanted childlessness for BPDr has given her a hall pass to behave abusively with others and so BPDr has tried/tries that same behavior unsuccessfully with us.  So, the reason the *I language* worked, is because we have backed it up with adverse consequences.  We are very fortunate that BPDr has no leverage over our life of any kind; we don't need her, and in fact, she needs us and our cooperation.  MP has had periods of No Contact with BPDr after she engaged in extremely abusive behaviors, which in the past MP silently tolerated with the hopes of placating BPDr's disturbing, out of control rages.  It took MP time to realize that when MP caved to BPDr's inappropriate rages, they got worse and more dangerous and walking away resulted in a massive and rapid reduction in the intensity and hostility of her rage attacks.  I wanted to share our experience to encourage those who like MP have not reached a place where it makes sense for them to walk away or they are not yet able to walk away for whatever reason.

What worked with BPDr was ensuring her abusive, rage behaviors resulted in being denied her goal and our words and actions being consistent no matter what.  Somehow, words fail to convey, the enormous effort and restraint and struggle and sinking feeling of going two steps forward and five steps back that MP and I lived before getting to this point; it's been difficult and very non-linear but good enough to make our boundaries stick.  Our boundaries work not because BPDr agrees to them, or follows them, of course the inappropriate baby begging is poised for a comeback, but because there will be strict, immediate adverse consequences hopefully only *if* but more likely *when*, BPDr violates our boundaries. 

Withdrawal/No Contact is an excellent way out.  They are time outs for BPDr's toddler like rages and abuse that MP has used effectively and the result is a decrease in BPDr's abusive behavior.  I'm No Contact with BPDr
and it's up to MP to decide if and/or when to be No Contact.  I trust MP to continue to confront and to refuse to accept BPDr's abusive behavior.  No Contact for MP would no doubt put a final end to BPDr's ability to behave abusively and inappropriately but it is also an excruciating, self-preserving choice that feels like amputating your own limbs to not die from the toxic emotional gangrene spreading through BPDr that poisons everyone within a 100 mile radius.  BPDr has Chernobyl levels of toxic and we have learned/continue to learn how to protect ourselves from it.  Right now, it's with containment. 

It seems to me, half the battle with dealing successfully with abusive people like BPDr, is being able to put into words what they are doing and their preferred ways for inflicting harm and damage.  Periods of No Contact or Limited Contact have made it easier for MP and me to see the way BPDr deploys her abusive tactics against others from a safe distance .  Her inappropriate behaviors feel so personal but she does them with everyone in every facet of life.  MP and I imagine, what abusive, inappropriate behaviors BPDr has shown in the past, think of what she is likely to engage in again, and in what context, for example, BPDr is more unstable in private with a small group, a few people she knows well than in public, in a larger group mixed with people she doesn't know very well.  We've engineered life to limit the damage.  We don't share any holidays or important life events/news with her and most of the interaction MP has with BPDr is carefully structured and task focused with non-family witnesses present.  MP and I are very encouraged that we have learned/continue to learn healthy ways to cope with BPDr's abusive behaviors and we hope our success gives others hope that they will find their own healthy ways to cope too.

[goodgirl]

Welp, everyone else has still shared all the best advice, but I just had to chime in with qerwgjadfsipuqwt40-9t42qklgre your relative was mad because you refuse to conceive and birth your own baby to hand over to her????

This has got to be one of the most unbelievable demands I have ever heard--I was certain I had to have misunderstood at first!  I mean, I... you... her...

[qcdlvl]

Welp, everyone else has still shared all the best advice, but I just had to chime in with qerwgjadfsipuqwt40-9t42qklgre your relative was mad because you refuse to conceive and birth your own baby to hand over to her????

This has got to be one of the most unbelievable demands I have ever heard--I was certain I had to have misunderstood at first!  I mean, I... you... her...

[WomanInterrupted]

Believe it or not, this sounds *almost normal* to me. 

When DH and I got married, unNPD MIL  *told* us when we  *were ALLOWED*  to have kids - not until I was 25 and she was ready to be a grandmother -  and then THIS laundry list  of whackadoodle:

1.   4 children, no more than 15-18 months apart, 2  boys, 2  girls, all with blonde hair and blue eyes.   

Gee lady, would you like fries with that??   

2.  SHE would be present for all births, whether I liked it or not, and *decide* if I needed a C-section, regardless of what the doctors - or I - thought.   

Note:  she is not a doctor, and thinks scurvy is the cause of just about everything.   

3.  UnNPD  MIL was THE Ultimate Authority on how they'd be raised and if we didn't do as she said, she'd call CPS on us and have our custody stripped.   

4.  NO breast feeding - only animals do that.  Bottle ONLY for her time with the children, to make it easier on HER.   

5.  Cloth diapers or she'd call CPS and have our custody stripped.   

6.  She got weekends, summers and ALL holidays - or she'd call CPS and have our custody stripped. 

Sensing a pattern?   

7.  SHE would choose their names, their schools and their career  trajectory - any interference and you guessed it - CPS, custody stripped, yadda yadda yadda.   

8.  If we did anything she didn't agree with - including choosing the wrong  schools, going to the wrong doctors, dressing the kids the wrong way or buying them the wrong toys - see above.  Custody  stripped, etc...   

9.  They would be HERS and we would  have *absolutely no say.*  We'd be at her *mercy* - and we'd better hope she approved or custody, blah blah fishcakes blah...   

10.  We would provide ALL the finances she needed, so she wouldn't have to inconvenience herself for raising  HER GRANDCHILDREN - while never getting to see *our own flesh and blood.*   

11.  Any time the children were with us, she had the RIGHT to just come over and inspect the place (our HOME, which we own!) for any reason, at any time, and if she didn't like what she saw  - custody stripped, you get the idea,  is it any wonder we've been NC with her for over 20 years?   

I don't think it's just unNPD  with her - I'm convinced she's got unOCD, too - which isn't an excuse, but more the reason to have gotten the hell away from her.  She'd screwed  up DH when she had him in her late teens - and untreated, it  does *not* get better.   

DH saw her maybe 10 years ago, and the first thing she wanted to know is if we'd had kids.  He told her we didn't and then she grilled  him about  being SURE if we'd had kids or not. 

No...we're quite certain those furry beings that purr and meow and occasionally urp up hairballs are cats. 

DH and I knew, early on, that we didn't want kids - that sealed the deal.  We were young and didn't know she couldn't exercise the *control* over us that she thought she could - but it scared us enough to really think  about  bringing children into this mess of all these fucked-up people!   

At that time, we had NO clues  - now I have *names* I can put to the problems - UnBPD Didi, the ignoring queen, until unNPD/unOCD MIL was in the picture;  unNPD Ray the ignoring King, until he had to tussle with unBPD  SFIL - who thought he'd just take over and everybody  - including us - would submit to his  constant tears - or *fists*  about being *denied* being a  father again.   

Was this an unholy mess?  You'd better believe it - which is why our kids are furry, my eggs turned to dust about 10 years ago, and DH had a vasectomy, for good measure!   

Do NOT underestimate the crazy, or how it will try to inflict itself on you, in ways you never expected - or thought were possible.

But you *can* break free from it - which we did  - and realize NONE of what we post on this forum is in any way, shape or close to what passes as the semblance of Reality as any of us know it!