The BIFF Response--Avoid Admonishment?

[atticusfinch]

Hello all,

THANK YOU for your super helpful replies to my post the other day. I forgot how wonderful it is to be able to talk to people who 100% get what it's like to deal with a PD ex-spouse. You all inspire me.

My question today is about responding to a PD person. I don't know if any of you have read Bill Eddy's BIFF response to personality disordered people (I believe BIFF stands for brief, informative, friendly, and firm?). He advises to not offer advice, apologies, or admonishments to a PD ex spouse, which I tend to follow overall, as I think it's pretty solid advice. (my ex, on the other hand, *fills* his replies with advice and admonishments, which is so incredibly annoying. My ex acts like he's the wisest man on the planet trying to educate his inferior, intellectually delayed, wayward child--aka, me.)

That said, there are occasions when I want to just say to him, point blank, "please desist from doing X." In particular, my ex has made several comments lately to our kids hinting that he will file legal action again to force them to live with him. It is extremely unlikely that he'd ever succeed at this, and I know I have no control over whether he sues for custody (again) or not, but my issue is with how he's involving the kids on this. It is so so so inappropriate for him to be saying these things to our kids.

I want to say to him, "hey, I noticed you've told [child's name] a couple times now that he's going to have to come live with you," and then say something to the effect of "it is highly inappropriate to involve our kids in adult legal matters. It places unfair psychological burdens on them when they should be made to feel safe and secure by their parents. Please desist or I will [take action of some sort--I don't know what yet]." 

I know that a narcissist will never gain insight into their behavior, and that they are wired for conflict, etc, which all point to admonishments doing zero good. That said, there are times that I feel like I need to just say something, straight out, to the point, without emotion, for the sake of our kids. Also, if we do end up in court, it seems like it would help me if I can show that I tried to solve the problem (and then he predictably escalated or something). I'm just wondering how the rest of you handle this type of stuff?

[moglow]

Me, I'd lean hard into "if it's not said to me, it doesn't exist and I'm not making it an issue" and reassure the children where I can. 

None of that is the kids' to carry. He shouldn't put them in the middle that way or worry them with things that simply aren't theirs to manage. Sounds more like he's digging for a "response" from for something he hasn't even said to you. So I vote no.

[notrightinthehead]

Saying to kid with eyeroll 'oh that again! I wonder what comes next.' Then ask kid - are you worried? How do you feel when he says things like that? What do you think about that? Then validate kid.

[Cat of the Canals]

I agree with the above that addressing the issue with your kids is probably going to be far more productive than saying anything to your ex. The PDs I know take a statement like, "Please stop doing X" as a gauntlet being thrown. They are now going to do it just to prove that you can't tell them what to do.

So he does it again, and then what? If you aren't prepared to put some sort of consequence into immediate action, then you've effectively shown him that this boundary has no weight.

[Rose1]

I agree. It's a wind up to you. It's also despicable he uses the kids. It's also common.

Put your energy into discussing this with the kids and giving them strategies. They will be dealing with the pd longer than you will I suspect. Teach grey rock, medium chill, no jade.

If a kid is brought into this and they say "nothing to do with me, it's an adult issue" or words to that effect it should cut the supply right down.

Teaching my kids how to deal with pd behaviour was one of the best things I did.

I overheard oldest d on the phone saying, "if you keep this up I'm going to have to call the ambulance out. I'm not qualified to deal with this" after a suicide threat.

It affected her unfortunately and contributed to cptsd but she also learned how to deal with pd. She went NC as an adult.

It's unfair, hard to deal with. I found exbpdh likes to stir the pot for a reaction and started on my oldest d once he realised he wasn't getting it from me

[bloomie]

atticusfinch - you have already received great advice which I second. I was wondering if it would be reassuring to you to document the date/time general conversation with the kids and your actions - reassurance, etc., in order to quiet that part of you that, rightly from all you have been through, is preparing for a potential legal maneuver.

This might also help you see trends and give you clear direction about possibly engaging with your ex about this.

[atticusfinch]

Hello all, your responses are pure genius. I've been so deep in the weeds lately and haven't be on here nearly enough, so that I've lost myself and forgotten how wise you all are! This is so helpful.

[Penny Lane]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. I want to go back to your original question which is a good one and one that we grapple with.

So DH learned a long time ago that asking BM to do anything is a total waste of time. If anything she's less likely to do it.

Instead, he will tell her what HE is going to do. "Kid needs to be signed up for activity on this date. If I don't hear from you, buy (date - two days) I will sign them up."

Then you're avoiding advice or admonishments, but you can also keep moving things forward.

In your case, since you don't know what you're going to do, that's impossible. So he would skip it.

The only other reason to bring it up is to document for court. In that case I think he would stick to being informational. "You are doing this thing. It is harmful to the kids for XYZ reasons. The court order forbids it" or whatever. In response BM will definitely say she's not doing that and would never. And then, knowing it got under DH's skin and got her attention, she would do it more. So more often DH would just make a note to himself to document it.

[atticusfinch]

Penny Lane,

Thank you so much for this. It is super helpful! I somehow have gotten out of the habit of some of my grey rock behaviors, but you're right--if my ex knows something bothers, me, he increases the behavior. (when we were married, I rarely asked directly for something I wanted or needed, because then he'd go out of his way not to give it to me and would upbraid me for even asking, but if I stayed silent about it, he would sometimes think it was his own idea and would do the thing I needed.) Thank you so much for the reminder. It helps a lot to know that I'm not crazy and helps me feel seen. I'm sorry others have to go through this too but it is such a comfort being able to lean on y'all in times of need.