Struggling with alienated teens - help, please!

[CityGirl]

Hi all,

I separated from my uBPDXH about 4 years ago.  He kept the house in the divorce, I moved out and live close by, we have shared custody of the kids 50/50 since the split. 

However, I'm now struggling with my teenagers - two 16 year olds and a 14 yo.  Our youngest is in elementary and things are going well between us.  One 16 yo has decided to spend most of their time at dad's house, and it seems that my 14 yo is about to do the same.  The 14 yo essentially refuses to talk to me - I've tried a number of times, in different ways, to engage with him, only for him to totally ignore me, to grunt, or to leave the space.  He then texts his dad complaining about being at my house and how much he hates it here.  This 14 year old is the child who, when we were married, was scapegoated by my ex, often running to his room crying after being shamed and blamed to the point of tears. 

It's clear to me that my three oldest have completely aligned with their dad.  They now sound like my ex did when we were married - everything I do is wrong, I'm dumb and stupid, everything is bad and it's my fault and I need to fix it (but no details on what is not working or needs to be fixed).  I'm sure many of you understand when I say how hard it is to hear one's own children engage in the same behavior as your ex.  They've painted me black.  I have tried and tried to engage with them, yet they often just refuse.  They then constantly text with my ex about how miserable they are with me, how much they hate it here, which then results in my ex sending a barrage of communication about how "crazy" things are at my house and that it's "not like this" at his house.

I am at my wit's end.  I don't know what to do.  My three big kids have completely adopted their dad's narrative - mom is bad/stupid/etc, he is good (he's now understanding himself as the "victim" because I initiated the divorce).  Dad does everything right - mom does things differently than dad, so she is wrong. 

Not only do I feel that I'm losing my kids, but I also now have to deal with my ex getting more involved in my life because I'm "failing" at being a parent, and my kids are now mimicking their dad's abusive behavior towards me. 

Has anyone dealt with this situation?  Any advice?  Did anything work for you?  Playing the "long game" and waiting for them to understand and see their dad for who he is .... I try to do that but every day just hurts so much, it's taking its toll on my mental health. 

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I wish I had great advice for you - it's just so hard what you are going through. 

I've had similar experiences as well as close friends that I met in a support group.

My first thought is that getting support is helpful - perhaps a therapist that is knowledgeable about parent alienation (I call it a parental abuse because that is what's going on).  Support groups are iffy - people can be so immersed in the legal system - and crazy stories, so it's stressful.  I'd read/research on the topic.  I'm going back to my first suggestion -therapy.  Finding someone that you can share what's going on and you can get some validation and maybe some good strategies/coping skills.

Emotionally it's exhausting.  Try not to give up any of your time with your children.  Try and show them who you are - don't be afraid to parent how you want to.  None of us know what next week will bring us.  Try and stay in the present and to not worry about what may or may not happen.  You just don't know.  I'd try and limit any contact with the ex - why is he involved?  Can you use GR/MC with the spouse? 

They may not be engaging with you - but they are watching you.  Are you breaking down or are you enjoying your life?  Are you a mess or are you reading a book enjoying the sun?  If you ask them to go to a movie, and they won't - then you go.  Don't let them abuse you.  My son has been (at times) very nasty to me - almost cruel - and I call him out on it.  It triggers me thinking he's like my ex-PD spouse.  UGH. 

Sending you strength -

[notrightinthehead]

Welcome Citygirl!  Have you read the Toolbox? I used medium chill, non JADE and sometimes grey rock with my kids during their difficult teenage years. I kept on telling myself that I am the adult in this relationship and they were not here validate me. I tried to set very firm boundaries what kind of behaviour I was not willing to tolerate from them, and what I would do if they behaved like that.
I found it very difficult to navigate the teenage years while being undermined by my husband, and my intention was to not completely destroy the relationship. That could be your long term goal too. Sending you strength!

[Srcyu]

Hi,
Right at the start of your post there is quite a big clue - he kept the house and you moved out.

To be able to reach your children you need to be able to understand how they felt deep within when you left home.
They have a manipulative father. He has reeled them in because it's easy for people like him to do that.

I agree with the advice above, you need professional insight into what is going on in your children's minds.

[Penny Lane]

Hi CityGirl,
I'm so sorry you're going through this. It is so hard and unfair.

I have a couple books that have helped me with alienation type things.

One is called Divorce Poison, and it's about more severe cases like yours.

The other is called Don't Alienate the Kids! And it's really focused on preventing your situation. But I do like it because it talks about things that you as the alienated parent can do.

There's a lot in these books that can help you but one thing I would suggest that has been very helpful to me is focusing on assertive responses. When they treat you badly and mimic their dad, it helps to have phrases in your back pocket to pull out and say. They are making you FEEL terrible, but the more you can hide that and act as their parent, the better.

"That's rude" "we don't talk to each other in this house" etc.

The other thing I would suggest is not engage with your ex about this. Maybe a one sentence BIFF response. "It's OK to have different parenting styles and the best thing for the kids would be if you stopped undermining my parenting to them." He won't, of course, but at least you've clearly said your piece and then you can move on.

These are small ways that you can reclaim your power and set a good example for your kids about resilience in the face of extreme bad behaviors. They are not a solution (and even in those two entire books, there's not a silver bullet solution). It will be hard, I don't want to minimize that. But all you can control is YOUR actions and it might feel better to take that control as much as you can.

[CityGirl]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.  I'd written a longer response, but it was deleted somehow...

[rockandhardplace]

This is literally my biggest fear and what keeps me stuck living in an extremely toxic situation which in itself is so damaging to the kids.

The problem is they don't care about hurting their children. Have you read amy baker? Co-parenting with a toxic ex is so good. I'm currently re-listening to it and have read the other books listed here and plan to keep reading them until I feel prepared for the shit he'll put us all through. Bill Eddy has great books but honestly don't do what I did and read / listen to all at once as it's just so depressing. The way narcs will manipulate and twist things and use their own children to get back at you is so hard to read, accept. My relationship with my eldest is quite fractured as he belittled me and undermined my parenting right in front of me and I was so brainwashed I didn't see it. She used to literally copy his behaviours - mocking me, shouting, calling me names - and instead of calling him out i tried to talk to him about her behaviour. I was so naive I look back and can't understand it but I know he has that domineering presence that the kids will side with him and reject me if I'm not careful and even if I am. I think a lot of it has to do with their conditional affection/ attention. Instead of loving their kids no matter what and for just being themselves he plays them off each other and goes hot/cold. My eldest was GC for years. She was parentified, saw herself and him as top of the family hierarchy. They used to bully her younger brother together. Then she started to pull away from him, got busy with sport and friends and now her brother is GC. And he is so loving finally having his dads attention. They don't need to prove their love for us, the safe parent they know they are safe and no matter what we are there and love them. I think this makes it easy for nasty manipulators to turn them against us as they make rejecting us a condition for their affection. It's just the most horrible thing a parent can do to their child.
I would definitely read up about parental alienation. Don't communicate with your ex about this at all. Maybe next time they say something mean to you take a deep breath and approach with curiosity.  Name their emotion. You seem angry, do you want to talk about what's bothering you? That's a really hurtful thing to say, it seems like you are upset about something, would you like to talk about what's going on. These poor kids are most likely being coached to reject you and when they show their dad that they are doing this they get his love and affection. Whatever happens don't give up any of your parenting time. If they say they prefer being at dads maybe ask what it is that they like better there. Acknowledge that it can be hard for teenagers to have to move between 2 houses, but be firm that kids need to spend time with both parents.
Btw I can't do most these things yet myself - I get terribly triggered when my kids speak like him, but I am trying to prepare myself. Good luck it's such a horrible thing.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

Rockandhardplace - I agree with how hard it is to communicate with our children when they are so mean/verbally abusive to us as their parent.  My son is very much like that - and, my reaction to it, has not been helpful.  I rarely acknowledged his frustrations/anger/etc... in stead, I almost told him he was wrong.  Like if he said the glass is half empty, I'd tell him, no it's full.  I didn't see this for a VERY long time, I thought I was being such a great parent    Anyhow, now, I acknowledge his feelings and just let it go.  After a week or so, it's actually gotten better and he even expressed in more than one brief sentence how he's feeling.  He saw that I really listened and made an effort to change.  He's been much more receptive to me lately.   It's been really tough - I see his dad in him at times, and it triggers me- a lot. 

[hhaw]

Rock:

I suggest finding a good Trauma Informed T to help you find your edges and build healthy boundaries around them..... then enforce them.

Your children will have more respect for you if you erect firm boundaries and calmly defend them.  At the same time, you;ll be modeling how to do that for themselves, with their father/everyone, their entire lives.

A good therapist will help you figure out how to best cope wtih things you can't control.....
do what you can, then put the story on the shelf and turn towards the joy in your present moments
INSTEAD
of worry worry worry worry, suffer, struggle and get the same outcome, but lose even more to the PD than you have to.

You're going to build adult relationships with your older children and you can't control ANYTHING but what you do and say..... but also your perception of how that's going is important.

Your children perceive you to be what their father says, bc .......
bc it's safer to adopt his ideas and agree with an unsafe, inconsistent parent who deals in conditional love
while YOU are safe, consistent and will always love your children, no matter what.

I say they will love you better/respectfully if you put healthy boundaries in place and stop allowing disrespectful behavior.

Children should knock before entering your room, for instance, bc you knock first and respect privacy.  Name calling should be OFF the table, as yelling and changing topics before one topic is finished should be.

Just giving your children your throat is a mistake.  Depending on their approval and affection, for you to feel OK, is problematic also and work with a T on co dependence should help you feel much better and remain OK, even if things with your children aren't feeling OK....
it's OK.

You can still be OK, no matter what's going on around you, Rock.

At that place, I hope you shift conversation and activities with  your chidlren to building new family rituals around holidays and breaks.... time together. 

Can you think of some enjoyable things they'd find interesting to suggest?

What can you enjoy with all of them and with each separately?

Hint: A good Trauma Informed Therapist is going to lay down some operating rules for you:

1.  Stop judging.... everything and everyone.  Just replace it with curiosity and SEEING what's really there... inside your internal world, what's really happeing with your children.... what the PD is actually doing.... and wrap your mind around it.... accept it. 

2.  That brings us to how acceptance calms the Nevous System and brain so creative problem solving and choice are reinstated

3.  Be super kind to yourself..... I mean, treat yourself to tsunamis of self compassion....like you're a small child... unconditionally and every moment you can.  When you fall down,..... go back to self compassion, again and again.

4.  Breathe..... take time for self care and when you're stressed..... stop what you're doing and breathe, filling your lungs from the bottom to the top, like filling a vase.... 10X and check your stress levels.

Where are they in your body? Put your hands on it, name it, is it sharp?  Burning?  Throbbing?  Pressure?   Put a number on it from 1 - 10 for intensity and breathe 10X more..... slow and deep... focusing on your breathing and the pain......
then check it again.  Is it getting any better?  Staying the same?

If not getting better, find a place in your body that feels normal and focus on it for 10X breathing. 

What you're trying to do here is calm your Nervous System down so you have access to your frontal cortex where logic and reason and creative problem solving live.  THOSE things will help you in every way, with past trauma and going forward.

There are many calming strategies.....
cold shower, splashing face and neck with cold water, ice pack on chest....
walking backwards around a trash can
pushing on a door jamb with everything you have JUST PUSH!
going into nature and touching trees, noticing the grass and pebbles....
humming..... (I hum all the time and didn't know it was my body self soothing)
gargling deeply
You can look up lots of other ways to find things you think make sense, but what yuo can't do is control your ex, your children or how they treat you.

You can only control yourself and spending energy on self care leads to better things while doing what you've always done, to remove pain/suffering short term, likely leads to more of what you have, IME.

In the meantime, don't judge your children. Look them in the eye, when you the chance, and be present with htem. Ask them why they're saying or doing what they're saying..... and listen. Without interrupting then ask them why they hold those beliefs and listen.

You can't argue someone out of their irrational beliefs, but you can turn them toward them and allow them to judge them for themselves....but always ALWAYS without judgment for the PD or them or what they're saying.

Just..... embrace radical acceptance and see if anythign shifts for you. 

Curiosity is transformative, IME: )