Not sure whether to go LC or NC or carry on as normal

Dancing Fool · March 25, 2019, 10:40:46 AM

Thank you for reading this!

Hi everyone, this is my first post after introducing myself in the Welcome Mat.

Short version:

Argument with mother over alcoholic neighbours rakes up bad memories of abuse in the past by her alcoholic ex-boyfriend. Decided to go NC for a month as an experiment. Not sure whether to extend that or to go LC or to go 'back to normal'.

Long version:

About 5 weeks ago I (in my 40s) got into an argument with my mother (in her 70s) over a couple who are my neighbours. I suspect they are alcoholics/addicts. They sometimes have shouting matches in the middle of the night out in the street. I've seen the man attempting to throw punches at another man in the street while the woman tried to pull him away.

While my mother was visiting, the man was stood on the roof, throwing down freshly cut ivy onto a bonfire in his garden and causing lots of smoke to billow over. It was the 2nd or 3rd time he'd so that that week, so I was getting annoyed. But what concerned me more was seeing a number of people going in and out of their back yard, one holding a can of drink and acting as if he was some kind of lookout, one pacing up and down in the street, and another who, I kid you not, walked out of the yard into the middle of the road with an axe in his hand and started using it to trace shapes on the road surface while cars and cyclists swerved around him. He surely must have been off his face on something.

I was worried about this and stupidly told my mother about it. Hoping for a bit of sympathy I suppose. She instantly started to take control of the situation, telling me I should ring the police, ring the local council etc. I told her the police are too overstretched and underfunded these days and wouldn't come for something so insignificant, and the local council likely won't want to know unless I at least have some records/evidence of lots of events like this. I tried to head her off at the pass by looking up relevant information on the local council website to back up my view. I noticed something there about not being able to make anonymous complaints and told her I was frightened about how a group of potential drug addicts might react to being reported to authorities. I certainly didn't want to do anything in a hurry. She continued to insist I shouldn't put up with it, should go over and complain to them or call the local council. Then she said she would do it herself so my name wouldn't have to be involved.

At that point something snapped inside my head. Part of the reason I got so upset is that when I was in my early 20s, she was in a relationship with an abusive alcoholic for 3 years. He was verbally and physically abusive and drove me out of my home with her. We've never been to counselling over it or really discussed it properly. So it feels like one of those things that gets papered over or swept under the carpet. But two decades later, this argument with her over my neighbours has re-opened old wounds for me.

She thinks confrontation is the way to go and that there will be no harmful results from it, whereas a friend of mine instantly understood my worries and said no, keep your distance from them, if they are drug dealers they might torch your house. When my mother during her visit just kept going on and on about what I should do, and refused to listen to my concerns, I burst into tears which I think surprised her. I told her I will not get involved with alcoholics or drug addicts again, I can't go through that again. She shut up and to my surprise and relief, cut her visit short (very unusual).

I spent about a week and a half thinking about what had happened. She had ignored my opinion and fears, and tried to force me into doing something I see as potentially dangerous to myself and my family (husband and pets). It's fine to disagree with someone, it's another thing to completely disrespect their right to their own view, and yet another to try and override them, and still another to do so at the expense of their own safety. But am I overreacting here?

I decided that I couldn't pretend that everything was fine. I couldn't stand the idea of going out for a coffee with her, having her over to mine (she likes to come over often and usually invites herself) or even answering her phone calls. I decided I would ring her up and record the phone call. Because normally she bamboozles me with words. Her brain works much faster than mine, she talks a lot and she can find an answer to anything and talk me into submission. After what is usually a mainly one-way conversation with her, I struggle to remember half of what has been said, and she will flit from topic to topic rapidly.

So I put the phone on speakerphone, set my dictaphone to record and rang her up and told her I wanted to take a break from our relationship for one month. That I wouldn't answer any phone calls unless she had a genuine emergency. I could put a list of all the tactics she tried to use on me during the call but this post is already too long so I will omit it for now. Basically she did agree to the month of no contact and has stuck to it so far, to her credit. (Edit: literally as I am proof-reading this, I have had a 'private caller' phone call (she withholds her phone number) which 9 times out of 10 is her: they left no message.)

Now I'm not sure what to do. I have one week left of the month of no contact.
I don't want to go back to how things were before.
I don't want her ringing me up at short notice wanting to pay me a visit.
I don't want her to keep giving me gifts most of which I don't want and all of which I suspect are used to show what a wonderful mother she is.
I don't want to be her social life.
I'm fed up with listening to her problems and then being told she doesn't want my solutions or pretending she does then not going through with them.
I'm fed up with her hints that she wants to move in with me, or that she wants me to start doing care work for her.

Can anyone has who has gone NC give me tips on how to deal with the guilt? I'm fantasising about it but don't know if I've got the gumption. Or perhaps suggest a 'reasonable' form of LC? I'm not sure what is a reasonable, proportionate response to deal with her behaviour. Maybe NC is too cruel and selfish and over the top. I don't have any siblings or other family members to share the problem with. If she were to get seriously ill, have an accident, or try to commit suicide and I'm not there for her, perhaps I would never be able to forgive myself. Because, as she said, there is only me. There is no-one else.

Apologies for the length of this and if it seems disjointed; I've written and re-written and re-written it again (cutting out a lot!).

coyote · March 25, 2019, 11:01:53 AM

Dancing,
You say, "I'm not sure what is a reasonable, proportionate response to deal with her behaviour." I'd say whatever response fits you best is the one to go with. Since i've not walked in your shoes it is difficult to say what you should. do. I can say this. I've dealt with the guilt by reminding myself they are making their choices and I need to do whatever I need to do to keep myself safe. I can only control myself.

You also say, "If she were to get seriously ill, have an accident, or try to commit suicide and I'm not there for her, perhaps I would never be able to forgive myself." I guess I go back to what I said earlier, you can only control yourself. There is so much in life that is outside our control. Once I really figured that out, it made my choices a lot easier.

biggerfish · March 25, 2019, 11:37:32 AM

Hi Dancing Fool,

I'm so sorry you have had to deal with a mother who lacks respect for you. (I can relate.)

Sounds like the discussion about the neighbors was a trigger for both you and your mother. She sounds like she doesn't really know what to do. Is there any possiblity that she feels bad about it, and doesn't know how to deal with it? Perhaps she's been content with it being left in the past, not knowing that you need to touch it again.

Correct me if I didn't get this right, but it sounds like you're at a crossroads with her, where you have two clearly defined boundaries. One is that, in order to move on in your relationship with her, you need to have a discussion about the ex-boyfriend. The second boundary is that moving forward, you want your needs, preferences, and individuality respected by her.

Given that those two things are now boundaries for you, the possiblity of going back to "normal" isn't really on the table any more. You're now wondering if NC is the way to go from here on in. But I get some sense from your post that you don't feel you have enough information yet to do that comfortably.

You might need to find out if she's willing to touch the past with you. And in the course of doing so, you'll probably learn more about whether she can move forward with respect for your needs and boundaries.

How would you feel about telling her that you need to touch the past with her, and attempt to make arrangements with her to do so? If she outright says "no," then perhaps you'll have your answer. On the other hand, if she's willing to get together for this purpose, then you'll be doing a little more digging before you know for sure what you want to do next.

NC is always an option, but do it after you've reduced any potentional regrets. (NC regrets cannot be eliminated but they can be reduced or mitigated.)

Anyway, these are my thoughts. You know best what's right for you. But I'm glad to hear you're not willing to sacrifice being respected. I'm cheering you on.

NotFooled · March 25, 2019, 12:50:20 PM

I don't believe my mother is PD but she has exhibited some behavior in the past that was toxic. Because of my own health issues I've decided to focus on myself more and I have limited my contact somewhat with M.

I still call her daily for a couple of minutes just to check on her and let her know I'm doing ok. I actually usually enjoy these phone calls because they are pleasant and last for only a few minutes We live in the same town but I usually only visit with her once a month for a few minutes at my home. These visits are generally pleasant. I also spend holidays and special occasions with her and my other in-laws and generally we all have a good time.

I know if I spent more time with her it would probably wouldn't be as nice and she would start saying things that are just out, out bizarre and uncomfortable. So my guideline with everyone these days If I'm not enjoying their company or if DH is not then I won't be spending time with them. If a phone call starts getting weird or uncomfortable I cut it short with a polite "Well I have to go. Talk to you later"
Also I don't mind doing the occasional favor for M but I'm not going to ever allow myself to get enmeshed in her problems ever again.

So my advice is to find the right balance and remember that you can always cut a visit or phone call short.

Dancing Fool · March 28, 2019, 05:05:43 PM

Thank you for the replies!

Biggerfish: I think my mother might some amount of guilt about the way her ex treated me but I'm not sure. In our telephone call she tried to minimise it by saying 'it was over 20 years ago', 'it was just something that was going on at the time'. She followed that with 'it wasn't all me and it wasn't all you', which left me gobsmacked. I can't see how the heck any of that situation was my fault, other than me leaving home to escape it. I lost count of the number of times I went back to her house, at her request, to support her while she gave statements to the police about him. I think you're right that I am at a crossroads now. I'm not sure if discussing her ex-boyfriend will help or make it worse. And I just can't imagine her respecting my opinions.

I think the trouble is I've rolled over to placate her all my life or pretended I've agreed with her when I haven't. This is probably the first time I've really stood up to her and it I'm finding it scary. In the past when I've even hinted that I might have a problem with something she had done, she immediately dismissed it and refused to discuss it, nothing to do with her. I think I've been trained from an early age to be her 'yes man' because I've always dreaded trying to say no to her or trying to confront her over anything I disagreed with. It's always been 'do it my way or hit the highway' with her.

Kieveen: you sound really devoted to be calling your mother daily! For me it would be enough to speak to my mother once every month or even every couple of months. My husband tries to avoid seeing my mother when she visits, and last Easter apparently my MIL and FIL were considering inviting me, DH and my mother over for a day but they decided not to invite her. When I asked DH why, he said they didn't think they could cope with her for that long. I think she's only been invited to theirs maybe twice in the past and they've been to hers once.

Coyote: yes, they make their choices in how to behave. I have to concentrate on my own behaviour and work out what level of contact I can cope with.

I have sent my mother a mother's day card today. I couldn't bear the cards with syrupy messages so just bought a blank one and wished her a relaxing day. I did think about getting her a present but thought she might take that as me trying to apologise to her. I won't be spending the day with her which is what I normally do.

I think I want to reduce contact and not have her to our house in future except maybe at Christmas. Once she is at mine she stays as long as she can and after about 2 hours of her non-stop talking I am already exhausted. If she doesn't come over then I'm not trapped with her and she can't bring me the 'gifts' I don't want and then get hurt or angry when I try to refuse them. I will offer to visit her if there is something practical I can do for her. I will try a second time to lay down a boundary as to what time of the day she can call me (ie not midnight or 5.30am). If she wants go out to the cinema/for coffee etc I will tell her I am too busy/tired and maybe she will actually start making an effort to meet other people. She may have a disability but she is not housebound and she's certainly not shy!

biggerfish · March 29, 2019, 06:30:26 AM

Quote from: Dancing Fool on March 28, 2019, 05:05:43 PM
In our telephone call she tried to minimise it by saying 'it was over 20 years ago', 'it was just something that was going on at the time'. She followed that with 'it wasn't all me and it wasn't all you', which left me gobsmacked. I can't see how the heck any of that situation was my fault, other than me leaving home to escape it. I lost count of the number of times I went back to her house, at her request, to support her while she gave statements to the police about him. I think you're right that I am at a crossroads now. I'm not sure if discussing her ex-boyfriend will help or make it worse. And I just can't imagine her respecting my opinions.

I think the trouble is I've rolled over to placate her all my life or pretended I've agreed with her when I haven't. This is probably the first time I've really stood up to her and it I'm finding it scary. In the past when I've even hinted that I might have a problem with something she had done, she immediately dismissed it and refused to discuss it, nothing to do with her. I think I've been trained from an early age to be her 'yes man' because I've always dreaded trying to say no to her or trying to confront her over anything I disagreed with. It's always been 'do it my way or hit the highway' with her.

Yup. You already have the answers within. She is clearly not going to respect you, nor will she allow you to touch the past. You summed it up with words such as "gobsmacked" and "scary." Now that you've articulated it here on Out of the FOG, there's probaby no going back to your old ways. (This is a weird analogy but it's similar to how AA members say that AA ruined their drinking LOL.) You now are faced squarely with the fact that if you decide to placate her again, it's out of fear, and not out of self-respect or any kind of rational thought.

I'm wondering if, moving forward, it might help you to do a little googling about what it means to have courage, just to get you warmed up to the idea. I'll define courage in my own words: courage is a choice to do something in spite of the fear.

I'll say this about one of many differences between you and your mother: You can handle mistakes, regrets, triggers, and "all things human." Your mother cannot. You are sooooo unlike your mother. You are an emotionally healthy individual. And you have inner wisdom about what you need. I agree with #coyote -- you know best how to move forward. And on this from #coyote: "I've dealt with the guilt by reminding myself they are making their choices and I need to do whatever I need to do to keep myself safe. I can only control myself. "

While you're in this turning point, keep asking for help, support, and love-bombing from wherever you can get it, including here on Out of the FOG.

Here's some love-bombing:

Groundhog Day · April 07, 2019, 01:49:35 PM

Dancing,

My M uses the same saying as your, : "it's my way, or the highway". How ironic that we both have chosen similar nicknames for this site. Mine being Groundhog Day and yours Dancing Fool.

Groundhog Day for me is a repetative behaviour day after day and nothing changes. As your nickname Dancing Fool could mean being "puppet" ready to do as one instructs?

I also was worried like you. What if M gets sick, dies, commits suicide..etc. We have no control over these things. There are alot of wise answers to your posts. It is your decision which path you prefer taking. For me, it took me a long time before I choose NC. I too was having these same questions and worries in my mind. It is a normal process you are going through so don't stress about it. You have come a long way to acknowledge your M's behaviour over these years as a child and now as an adult. Not an easy tasks to talk about it either. I do beleive you are on your way to make a life changing choice where your M is concern by opting LC, confrontation, bounderies, NC...etc. You are moving forward!

Good luck

nanotech · May 04, 2019, 06:52:50 PM

That sense of being ' bamboozled with words' is my experience too.
On my dad's last trip to our house he stayed for SEVEN hours, talking intensively the whole time. My brain was so addled that he left without his present.
Halfway home he realised, stopped in a lay by and grumpily rang- to see if someone would drive 14 MILES to bring it to him, so that he could 'go home with it'.
My exhausted self said 'No'. He wasn't happy. Then he tried to nitpick the 'mistake' by reprising what happened during the last ten minutes before he set off. He tried in vain to apportion blame on me and away from himself, presumably to guilt me into bringing it to him.
I had an verbal tussle with him over that trivial issue. Who needs all this over a gift? I told him I would drop his present off in a few days. Problem solved, dad,
Over 7 hours of waiting on him, taking him for a lovely restaurant meal, followed by tea, coffee, copious biscuits, him commandeering the TV and aggressively talking non -stop (boasting about his achievements or scathing remarks about anyone else's). Then I think it's over but no, he wants me to yet again serve and prove his importance by driving a long way to him with a box of chocolates, while he sits getting freezing cold and at risk of oncoming traffic, at the edge of a fast road? Nope.
We would have heard about how cold he got for the next decade. Or two, if he lives that long (106? Eek)
' Dad, get yourself home before it gets dark,' I said.
Horrible response from dad. All of that effort, and at the end of an emotional exhausting day, I'm still in the fecking doghouse!
I'm trying to discourage him from driving distances (he's 86). I'd like him to stop completely but he won't hear of it. He says if anything happens at the wheel, he's 'had a long life and so be it.'
He never thinks about other people on the road. He hates younger people anyway, as he's so jealous of them. He's jealous of his own grandchildren.
We've told him we would be happy to pick him up and bring him to our home, then drive him home and return home ourselves. (120 mile round trip) - but he doesn't want THAT!

So it's stalemate right now.
Dad is trying to punish me.
VISITS. ARE.PAUSED.
Silent Treatment is ongoing (low or no phone calls) too.

HOWEVER......
NOT seeing him or hearing from him regularly, has had an amazingly positive effect on my psyche!
My anxiety levels and CPTSD symptoms have reduced dramatically.
Who knew? Certainly not me!
I'd LOVE to go NC. I actually feel like my own person, feel free, for the first time in my life. It's a heady feeling, and that genie is well and truly out of the bottle!
NC equals emotional health!
I called his bluff over the phone calls, matching his detachment. Eventually, he rang. I'm trying now to reduce further calls and keep any calls short and shallow.
This lack of physical contact and the tussle over the driving temporarily increased the levels of passive aggressive abuse on the phone ( or am I just seeing it more clearly?)
I didn't accept that. I just didn't ring him. The next call was easier.
Don't take any BS. from her. Good luck.