Thinking About Accountability

[afro-pope]

Hi folks,

This is going to be a bit of an abstract one, but I couldn't think of where else to put it. I also apologize if this is meandering and hard to follow - not only is it a complicated situation with a lot of moving parts, but I've been off my ADD meds and my antidepressants for two months now due to an insurance snafu and my ability to express complex ideas is basically gone.

So, a tiny bit of background. I don't know if my most recent ex has BPD, but it seems like they are a textbook case of comorbid case of borderline and bipolar 1, the latter of which they have been diagnosed with, and when telling my own psychologist about this, said with a laugh "yeah, I mean, I think I have that textbook in front of me." Additionally, they are on the autism spectrum and have had two TBIs. Which is to say, there's some complexity here in terms of how they process/remember events.

I am generally not a fan of "no contact" unless someone is a threat to my safety, which, as terrible as this person was to me, they aren't. I have no intention of ever being in a relationship, or even friends with, them again, but I also think it's better to leave the door open for dialogue, potential healing, whatever - and also I know I'd go totally insane if I thought they were trying to contact me and didn't know what to say. That said, I generally ignore their texts.

Sunday night, I was cooking dinner and my phone started to ring. I was surprised to see that it was my ex, who I haven't spoken to in any real capacity other than for administrative reasons (ie "hey a package was delivered to my place for you") since the breakup. What the hell. I answer it.

A lot happened during the conversation, and to be honest I'm not sure they were entirely sober. I did get what I would consider to be closer to an apology than I have gotten so far, and one that potentially would have been satisfying to me had I thought they were sober and had I not thought about it more later. It's true that, as they admitted, I was a very good partner to them, and that on more than one occasion I quite literally saved their life, and that they had treated me absolutely terribly. They repeatedly said "not to make this about me, but" and described a number of very traumatic things that happened during the last two months of our relationship, when they really started to act out. This was then couched in "not that that excuses it, but I wasn't myself." They kept going back to the idea that it "wasn't them."

So this softened the blow of the repeated "you were my best friend, you were endlessly kind and patient with me and always took care of me, and I was just a complete monster to you, and I'm so sorry, because you deserved better."

They also didn't remember a lot of the specifics of things that had happened during our relationship, especially during the final two months. Fortunately, I kept a journal, so I told them. I made it about 25% of the way through before they said "I can't listen to this anymore, I'm sorry," and changed the subject. Hey buddy, I lived it, how do you think I feel?

They have also since the breakup shaved their head and started going by their middle name.

The above, to me, sounds like a very advanced attempt at avoiding accountability - "that wasn't me, I refuse to confront the specifics of what I did but I know that I am not the kind of person who does those things." Of course, even if I do grant that they "weren't themselves" during that two months, it leaves a remaining ten month period during which they had two other boyfriends that I didn't know about, and were getting onto dating apps and telling other men that they were single before having unprotected anonymous/casual sex with them, and like, just flat out lying to me about literally everything. So like, I don't know, man. I think that is you, and until you're willing to truly confront "yes, these are the specific things I did, and I am the person who did those things," you aren't really apologizing or taking any accountability, you're just kicking the can down the road. I think a real apology and real growth can only be accompanied by the discomfort of those kinds of admissions.

Anyone experienced this kind of deflection, or have any thoughts on the nature of true accountability/apologies? Just thinking out loud here, again, I have no plans to pick that conversation back up with them.

Hope everyone's having a good one so far.

[Cat of the Canals]

I think we all have things in life we regret doing. Reasons to apologize. And when I feel I owe someone an apology, my opinion is that in order for it to be sincere, it requires me to take full responsibility for my actions. "I did this. And while there maybe have been extenuating circumstances that contributed to my actions, I still knew what I was doing, and I knew it wasn't right, so the circumstances don't really diminish what I did and that I hurt you. I'm sorry."

So yeah, I think your assessment that phrases like "it wasn't me/I wasn't myself" are ways of putting distance between them and full accountability are spot on.

To me, this sounds like someone trying to assuage their own guilt more so than someone trying to make amends.

[afro-pope]

I think we all have things in life we regret doing. Reasons to apologize. And when I feel I owe someone an apology, my opinion is that in order for it to be sincere, it requires me to take full responsibility for my actions. "I did this. And while there maybe have been extenuating circumstances that contributed to my actions, I still knew what I was doing, and I knew it wasn't right, so the circumstances don't really diminish what I did and that I hurt you. I'm sorry."

So yeah, I think your assessment that phrases like "it wasn't me/I wasn't myself" are ways of putting distance between them and full accountability are spot on.

To me, this sounds like someone trying to assuage their own guilt more so than someone trying to make amends.

Yeah, I mean, this is a damn sight better than it being all my fault two months ago to "we both made some mistakes" last month, but it got to the point where I was like "what, specifically, are you apologizing for. Even if you don't remember everything. What do you remember that you think you need to apologize for?"
"We both know what I did."

Sorry, no, you've got to say it! You've got to own it! It doesn't count otherwise! You have to understand what you did!

Thank you for saying "putting distance between them and full accountability," I couldn't think of how to phrase that properly.

[SonofThunder]

Hello afro-pope,

From my own PD experiences, this entire conversation that occurred is a classic Karpman drama triangle (🔺) role-switching fishing experience for a PD and their target.  Imo this always ends with the PD solidly landing themselves in the 🔺victim position.

Imo you (the fish) were first thrown bait by an impromtu phone call that started with false-motive kindness to get your attention. You noticed the bait hit the water. Having received your attention, the PD then started some enticing movement of the lure with the PD in the 🔺 rescuer position and you were the 🔺 victim with:

"admitted, I was a very good partner to them, and that on more than one occasion I quite literally saved their life, and that they had treated me absolutely terribly."

The fish, whose self-protective guard is now down a bit with the lure of kindness, is now focusing on the lure not the real motive of the PD caller.

*The PD actually reveals the real 🔺victim motive of the fishing trip, with the flipped projection of:

"not to make this about me, but". (it is 100% about the PD)
"not that that excuses it, but I wasn't myself" and "it wasn't them." (the PD is not guilty)

As the lure is now enticing the fish closer, the PD uses their years of fishing skills by adding a pause in the retrieve, to let the fish get closer to the lure, and then the skilled PD puts that final magic touch on the lure's retrieve to get the fish to swallow the lure with:

"They also didn't remember a lot of the specifics of things that had happened during our relationship, especially during the final two months. Fortunately, I kept a journal, so I told them..." .  Fish is on with the JADE!

Now that the fish has JADE'd, and the hook is firmly in the lip of the target, the PD openly reveals the call's real motive, and the PD moves from 🔺rescuer, over to victim.  The PD moves you from victim to persecutor with:

"I made it about 25% of the way through before they said "I can't listen to this anymore, I'm sorry," and changed the subject."

This is the ideal 🔺 ending victim position for the PD to maximize their feeding from the drama.  Again, not complicated imo, but traditional PD Karpman 🔺behavior to prey on the true nonPD victim. 

SoT

[afro-pope]

Hello afro-pope,

From my own PD experiences, this entire conversation that occurred is a classic Karpman drama triangle (🔺) role-switching fishing experience for a PD and their target.  Imo this always ends with the PD solidly landing themselves in the 🔺victim position.

Imo you (the fish) were first thrown bait by an impromtu phone call that started with false-motive kindness to get your attention. You noticed the bait hit the water. Having received your attention, the PD then started some enticing movement of the lure with the PD in the 🔺 rescuer position and you were the 🔺 victim with:

"admitted, I was a very good partner to them, and that on more than one occasion I quite literally saved their life, and that they had treated me absolutely terribly."

The fish, whose self-protective guard is now down a bit with the lure of kindness, is now focusing on the lure not the real motive of the PD caller.

*The PD actually reveals the real 🔺victim motive of the fishing trip, with the flipped projection of:

"not to make this about me, but". (it is 100% about the PD)
"not that that excuses it, but I wasn't myself" and "it wasn't them." (the PD is not guilty)

As the lure is now enticing the fish closer, the PD uses their years of fishing skills by adding a pause in the retrieve, to let the fish get closer to the lure, and then the skilled PD puts that final magic touch on the lure's retrieve to get the fish to swallow the lure with:

"They also didn't remember a lot of the specifics of things that had happened during our relationship, especially during the final two months. Fortunately, I kept a journal, so I told them..." .  Fish is on with the JADE!

Now that the fish has JADE'd, and the hook is firmly in the lip of the target, the PD openly reveals the call's real motive, and the PD moves from 🔺rescuer, over to victim.  The PD moves you from victim to persecutor with:

"I made it about 25% of the way through before they said "I can't listen to this anymore, I'm sorry," and changed the subject."

This is the ideal 🔺 ending victim position for the PD to maximize their feeding from the drama.  Again, not complicated imo, but traditional PD Karpman 🔺behavior to prey on the true nonPD victim. 

SoT

I appreciate the insight - as a quick aside, though, I'm not sure being like "well, there was the time that you told me [completely insane lie] when you actually [horrible thing]" is JADE-ing as I understand it, so I'd appreciate a bit more clarification there. I was incredibly careful not to give any ground. I didn't accept the "apologies," nor did I offer forgiveness or an olive branch, and when they invited me to meet up with them and discuss things further I said "no" and I have not initiated contact since, nor will I.

Cheers!

EDIT: just to clarify, my understanding of JADEing is that it feeds into this kind of behavior by being like, "well, yeah, I did do that thing, but only because you did this other thing" or other such debate tactics, which then allows the PD person to justify their own disordered/maladaptive behavior. I wasn't interested in debating, because I didn't do anything wrong. I just calmly informed them of things they'd said and done, all of which I had journaled for the sake of my own sanity, and when they weren't receptive to hearing that I didn't force the issue. The rest of your post is great, though, it feels very much like an attempt at a Karpmann Drama Triangle.

[SonofThunder]

https://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

Did I Justify?
Did I Argue?
Did I Defend?
Did I Explain?

If I did any one them, I chose to JADE. 

From your original post:
"..so I told them. I made it about 25% of the way through before they said "I can't listen to this anymore"

From your 'JADE' to my reply. It's healthy discussion with Out of the FOG comrades, but a no-go with a PD.
"Just to clarify.......I just calmly informed them of things they'd said and done..."

I have done plenty of JADE in similar baited situations as your lured phone call. No-JADE is an odd boundary to stop ourselves from doing around certain people who weaponize our responses that they so cleverly acquired. It's common purposeful fishing by PD's as it feeds their self-hunger.  I will use MC = medium chill, neutral responses to PD lures for JADE.  MC will usually cause my PD people to throw a lure again, but in a different part of my pond hoping to fool me in a different area, or they may in frustration, pack up and stomp away from the fishing hole, lobbing insults at me while they depart.

SoT

[afro-pope]

First off, I'm sorry you're struggling with having to go off your meds unexpectedly. That can really throw one for a loop! I hope you're able to get that resolved quickly.

I second what SoT said. This definitely sounds like classic drama triangle.

My uPDw has given me what seem like heartfelt apologies on several occasions. Very similar words to what yours said.

The way I like to think of it is: actions speak louder than words. If someone is genuinely remorseful, they should change their behavior. For my wife, nothing ever changes. She apologizes, but then goes right back to doing the things she apologized for.

For me, It seems like "off-gassing her shame". She's trying to make herself feel better in the moment, and once she does, she moves on and never thinks about it again.

Talk is cheap. My guess is they have no intention of doing anything different. As you said, accountability and growth/change over time says a lot more than the words of an apology.

yeah, that's my thought process. It's closer to anything resembling an apology than I've gotten, but it's still not a genuine apology because there's no specific acknowledgement of wrongdoing NOR is there any change in behavior, nor do I suspect there ever will be. Certainly not barely two months after the breakup! Gotta work harder than that, honey!