Not feeling very strong about NC

roughdiamonds1 · July 25, 2020, 05:53:12 AM

Hi all,

I went NC with my MIL (now ex-MIL) and BIL about 8 months ago, and NC with my SIL about 2.5 yrs ago.
The damage that any type of contact was doing to me personally was profound (C-PTSD amongst all kinds of other effects). After years of trying to manage it and doing everything I could to change the way things were, I couldn't cope with the continual loops of destructive behaviour. I also separated from my H about 6 months ago, largely to do with the stress we had both faced in dealing with this very difficult situation, and his unwillingness to make changes to our interactions that I needed to feel safe. We weren't strong enough as a couple to weather the storms.

So here I am on the other side of this situation... I am mostly protected from any contact at all, and I have become much stronger and I have prioritised healing and self-care for many months.

A few weeks ago I discovered an answerphone message from my MIL. She is blocked on my phone, so it didn't ring, but clearly you can still leave messages even if you're blocked. Her message was just pretending like nothing had ever happened, asking me how I was and saying something about one of our children. And then around the same time, by BIL and SIL have offered mediation. They want to see our children and until this point I have not wanted that to happen because of inappropriate behaviours that have happened to and in front of them.

I'm spending far too much time now in my head re-living all the experiences that were had, wondering what to do, one day feeling like I've absolutely done the right thing by going NC and having the knowledge that they are who they are and there's no way that anything has changed. I feel that even entering into discussions with them will be futile and stressful. The next day, I question myself and wonder if I've really done all I could do, is there a way for us to settle the situation to something slightly less harsh than full NC, with lots of boundaries involved of course. I have been questioned by other members of my H's family lately too.. asking the question of why it was me that they have a problem with, and pointing out that me going NC is hurtful to lots of people... Enter tons of self-doubt, anxiety etc.

I guess I'm reaching out here to see if anyone has had any success with moving from full NC to LC after some really very difficult and very abusive behaviours that crossed all the boundaries that I have. Has anyone attempted mediation or family counselling?

notrightinthehead · July 25, 2020, 03:32:26 PM

Are you getting counselling for yourself? To assist with your PTSD? Your first responsibility is for your own and your kids wellbeing. You don't have to justify yourself to anybody. Other people have not walked in your shoes and don't know how damaging the behaviour of some of your relatives was for you. Of course you can initiate contact again, maybe just to check if they are now more respectful of you. Sometimes it helps to test and see, sometimes we need to confirm several times that our conclusions are correct.

roughdiamonds1 · July 25, 2020, 06:00:36 PM

Yes, I've had lots of counselling over the years. Plus I've done a huge amount of work on myself, and lots of alternative therapies etc. I'm stronger and more boundaried than I've ever been in my life. But I still feel very triggered by these people in specific, so I feel my healing is not yet done. Maybe that would take many more years to be complete.

Having not been through mediation before, I'm not sure if it would be an appropriate way to check if they are more respectful of me or not... i get the sense they want something (contact with our kids), rather than to heal our relationship. But I have no way of knowing this for sure unless I somehow check.

PeanutButter · July 26, 2020, 12:11:31 AM

My H is back to seeing MIL again and it is all the same stuff happening again. YUCK!
Since its your decsion (not H's) one of the things I would factor in is what will your children gain from these relationships? What will they suffer? What will you gain and suffer? And finally do you want to do this for the gains for you and children or to pacify others who are not your FOC therefore not even your responsibility like your foc is?
I had high hopes when H didnt answer the door 3 uninvited visits ago but he must have felt too bad for doing it because 2 more uninvited visits and he has answered the door both times. I just go in my bedroom and watch tv while she is here. If it was just me I would not ever answer the door for her.
Good luck.

UglyLove666 · July 26, 2020, 08:25:14 AM

I'm feeling your pain and wondering if the following exercise could help you as much as it has helped me: Sometimes I go back and read my own posts on this site to remember where I was and how awful it felt. Then, when I'm feeling like I didn't do the "right thing" by cutting toxic people out of my life (kind of like a tumor?) I can see my own thoughts and feelings and observations right there in front of me.

Maybe this seems trite and surface-level, but I can tell you that it's helped me immensely. When I go back and read my own posts, it feels like I'm reading my own story - like we do if we journal. We can go back and read where we were, and come to the present and see how far we've come.

I went back to your two initial posts (only read your posts; didn't have time to read the comments by other members) so that I could try to get a better feel for what you've been through. I read those two posts from February, and I thought, "Wow, there's so much there that echoes my own feelings and where I was at when I joined this forum."

My DH and I do not have children, so I may be speaking from an un-shaky platform here. But this is what my gut is telling me to type, rough diamonds: Can you picture how your children will be treated, based on what your husband admitted about feeling sad about his mother's treatment? Perhaps I am biased here because I come from a severely PD FOO. And for that reason, I was averse to having children of my own because I did not want my own BPD mother to have "access" to them.

I wonder if you're finding yourself in series of emotional flashbacks (EFs). I found a website through this forum hosted by Pete Walker, MA and I find it to be the most brilliant resource regarding C-PTSD. There are a slew of free resources on his site. I'm working my way through his book, and I am learning that in order to work on recovery I must avoid unsafe people, situations that can be triggering. My concern is that these toxic people are just that: triggering.

I believe children are very resilient. It sounds like you're a really great mother, and it also sounds like their father is a good man. So perhaps they will be able to tolerate the stuff from their father's family. If I were you, I would check in with my therapist who knows all the ins and outs of your journey, your children, and their father. This is what helps me also, because when I'm in an EF (emotional flashback) my therapist can help me to identify it and make decisions that are based on good mental health - for me and my own DH.

Please keep posting and let us know how you're doing. I will try to come back to this site as often as I can. (Sometimes I have to stay offline for awhile in order to process my stuff.) It gives me great comfort to know that you are in therapy (which is a sign of strength, NOT weakness) and that there are some very wise and seasoned members on this forum.

I think you're doing great. I believe that being treated with respect and fairness is a basic human right. Sure, maybe we'll get into a job situation where we don't have a choice when dealing with what I call "petty tyrants". That's one of life's big existential bummers. But when I have the option of avoiding toxic people I grab it and cling to it as tight as i can. I will probably be posting similar posts as yours in the future because I've recently gone NC with my ILs. Try to not let them FOG you. You're not alone.

One last thing: When I went NC with my FOO I had to install an app on my phone that prevents anyone from leaving voicemails. it was incredibly inconvenient in many ways, obviously, but this was before the pandemic hit so for the most part I could just tell medical providers and such that "I don't have voicemail installed on my phone" and they would email me or text me. I can't listen to the voice of someone who has hurt me very badly because it can derail my recovery in a few seconds.

Leonor · July 26, 2020, 09:40:11 AM

Hello,

I'm so sorry for your distress. CPTSD here, NC with FOO (that was their decision) and NC with ILs (this decision was all mine.)

You know, when we talk about CPTSD, we tend to talk about triggers and then interpret our triggered response as a *fault of ours*, rather than what it is: a big, healthy, waving red flag warning us, "Danger, Will Robinson! Crazy at twelve o'clock!"

People who are not traumatized would interact with someone abusive and then think, "Wow, that person did or said things that made me really uncomfortable. I'm not going to put myself through *that* again!" and then go about their day.

People who are traumatized and not actively engaged in their healing would have the same experience and say to themselves, "I don't feel well right now because this person did or said that to me. I don't know why they did so but I probably did something terrible to deserve it. What should I do to make them feel better?"

It's normal, as you heal (and I've come to think of healing as a life choice, a way of moving about in the world, the way our friends in the addiction community live their recovery), to move among all of these responses. Allow yourself permission to be where you are, without pressuring yourself to do or say or be a certain way.

**Hint: if you are feeling that pressure and are talking to yourself with blame ("What did you do to deserve this?"), shame ("If only I didn't have CPTSD ..."), guilt ("What kind of mother keeps her children from their grandparents?") or frustration ("If I could just settle this once and for all!"), you are probably in a traumatized response. It's ok to be there ... But the healing option is not to "give in", "give up" or "give" anything ... The healing option is to stay safe and blanket yourself with compassion, self-care, and rest.

A very wise healer once had as her motto, "When you don't know what to.do, do nothing."

Give yourself permission to do ... Nothing.

It's healing.

roughdiamonds1 · July 26, 2020, 07:14:13 PM

Thank you all, they were very comforting words to read. I'm sure that you're all right and that I continue to have trauma responses. I have them all the time when it comes to my H's family. It's very common for me to go inwards and look at myself to see what I could do more. I want to be a person who is capable of self-reflection and empathy, yet sometimes I need a kind reminder that I only need to take on what is mine, and leave the rest alone.

At some point, I feel that we may need to sit in a room and have a discussion with MIL, BIL and SIL. Even if the only reason or outcome is to set boundaries around their contact with our children, so that I can feel comfortable with that happening. But I don't think that time is now.

I always dreamed of being able to sit down and have an open and reasonable discussion to resolve all the conflict that has happened, and for us to move on with some peace, even if relationships were not repaired. Perhaps I am clinging to that hope still... But I offered that option to them for years, and it's only when I seemingly closed the door on them that they suddenly became interested in me again. After my H and I separated, they sort of swooped in on my H, thinking that he would go back to how things used to be, with kids meeting up etc. He refused (I think he would have just moved on with them, but saw the damage it would do to to the amicable relationship we have worked so hard to maintain). So we are in a holding pattern. Trying to heal and process, but knowing this holding pattern can't last forever. It feels so uncomfortable!

Call Me Cordelia · July 26, 2020, 07:18:02 PM

QuoteI always dreamed of being able to sit down and have an open and reasonable discussion to resolve all the conflict that has happened, and for us to move on with some peace, even if relationships were not repaired. Perhaps I am clinging to that hope still... But I offered that option to them for years, and it's only when I seemingly closed the door on them that they suddenly became interested in me again.

Wow. I thought I was the only one. And then did you hear, "You won't even talk to me??? How can we resolve things if you won't talk it out???"

roughdiamonds1 · July 26, 2020, 07:46:02 PM

Ha ha Cordelia. Yes! I'm 100% sure they are saying that to each other. Thankfully I have an agreement with my H that he won't pass those comments onto me any more, but the comments from other family members shows me that's the exact storyline they are taking – that it's I who is being unreasonable, refusing to sort it out and intentionally hurting them. I haven't got the energy to fight that storyline... I've tried in the past, but I always come out looking and feeling worse. Am trying to learning to let people think of me what they will... but this is a VERY hard lesson for me.

all4peace · July 28, 2020, 09:51:57 AM

roughdiamonds1, this is a challenging situation. I live next door to half of DH's family. Their behaviors have been bizarre, hurtful and harmful. Coming from my own abusive childhood, I reached a point in adult life in which I wasn't able to cope at all and had significant anxiety. I took nearly 2 yrs of VVVLC to heal, calm down, and get therapy. At this point I am able to have LC with DH's family with very strong and clear boundaries, both internal and spoken. DH and I never, ever make choices about his family unless we can both live with the choice. Our marriage comes way before our extended family relationships, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us at times to say yes or to say no.

For me, the process has involved a few vitals steps:
1. My own protection and space/time for healing.
2. Prioritizing and working on my marriage.
3. Clear boundaries for the ILs, even when they're not respected. Holding steady anyway and not caving in.
4. Building up the healthy relationships and connections outside of our unhealthy family systems. A person can start to lose perspective if we don't have any other relationships to lean on, and if it feels like we are losing everything if we lose our unhealthy relationships.

I acknowledge inside of myself that I will likely never have the kind of family relationships I wanted with my parents or DH's family. I have grieved that, long and hard. I accept that they don't appear to have the emotional tools to do the kind of relationship I want, and so I aim to offer them the level of relationship that works for me and DH as a couple, and for me as an individual.

I hope that helps. Take care!

ps--it's a huge waste of energy and time to fight their narrative. Their narrative is unlikely to ever match your narrative. I have found it helpful to acknowledge to myself that I live in a different reality than my ILs (and my parents). That's sad, makes deep connection impossible, and I can't change it. So I don't try. It used to eat me up to think about the ways they weren't being fair to me, but it was a lot of wasted energy. We believe you. Most reasonable people will believe you. Your ILs are highly invested in not believing you. It hurts, but it's ok.

roughdiamonds1 · July 28, 2020, 11:09:56 PM

Thank you all4peace, I love your response.

I feel that yours and other responses here have reminded me I'm just not ready to have any contact. But maybe in the future, I will be and I'll tackle the hows and whats then.

I totally agree with your list of healing areas to focus on. This is totally my strategy, though I hadn't thought of it or expressed it so succinctly.

Not fighting someone else's distorted perception of me is hard, but I absolutely see the merit in just leaving it be. I think everyone in the family has chosen their viewpoint already too, so there's nothing to be gained by looking for support there. The only place I'll get what I'm looking for is outside of the family... and hopefully, one day, from within myself.

PeanutButter · July 29, 2020, 06:48:19 AM

Quote from: roughdiamonds1 on July 28, 2020, 11:09:56 PM
Not fighting someone else's distorted perception of me is hard, but I absolutely see the merit in just leaving it be. I think everyone in the family has chosen their viewpoint already too, so there's nothing to be gained by looking for support there. The only place I'll get what I'm looking for is outside of the family... and hopefully, one day, from within myself.

Quote from: all4peace on July 28, 2020, 09:51:57 AM

...I acknowledge inside of myself that I will likely never have the kind of family relationships I wanted with my parents or DH's family.
...it's a huge waste of energy and time to fight their narrative. Their narrative is unlikely to ever match your narrative. I have found it helpful to acknowledge to myself that I live in a different reality than my ILs (and my parents). That's sad, makes deep connection impossible, and I can't change it. So I don't try. It used to eat me up to think about the ways they weren't being fair to me, but it was a lot of wasted energy. We believe you. Most reasonable people will believe you. Your ILs are highly invested in not believing you. It hurts, but it's ok.

Wow I think I had an aha from this thread's latest comments. The high conflict persons in my life are not conflicted with me because they dont know the truth I need to tell them, have misunderstood I need to explain further, or are just mistaken so I need to correct them. They have CHOSEN their viewpoint. Their chosen perception and belief about me serves a need they have. They will not change their view, perception, and belief so I can get along with them!

Thanks to all for the sharing. It is so helpful.

LemonLime · July 29, 2020, 10:30:59 AM

I'm with PeanutButter! It's a ah-ha for me too...... these people CHOOSE their view of me, because it serves a purpose for them. They are not interested in seeing it differently because that would upend their boat.

In my sister's case, she NEEDS to see me as cold and selfish and bad. Because in her world, if things are not going well, it's either her fault or my fault. And it certainly can't be her fault.....so it must be MY fault! Easy-peasy. Black and white thinking will cause her to choose herself or choose me. It couldn't possibly be that humans are humans, and humans make mistakes, and mom and dad weren't perfect, and life has its ups and downs.

All things to a PD must be someone's FAULT. And sure as hell it won't be theirs.

Funny to me that my sister sees herself as the family scapegoat but makes me into her scapegoat.

Thanks for the insight, everyone.

all4peace · July 29, 2020, 01:23:16 PM

I guess in response to my response, I would say that while it's technically a choice it's probably far more a defensive mechanism for them to avoid seeing things about themselves that are unbearable. Either way, as adults we're all responsible for our behaviors and the ways they do and don't work in the adult world. For me, it helps me to have more empathy if I believe that they're protecting very wounded and fragile egos rather than deliberately trying to be jerks.

Leonor · July 29, 2020, 03:46:03 PM

I think it would be fun to have a tea party with stuffed animals the way that children do. Go ahead and set the table and prepare coffee or tea or whatever with delicious little cakes and line up some dolls and teddy bears to "stand in" for the ils and LET THEM HAVE IT!

I bet it would feel very liberating to allow yourself to voice all that you are holding inside and I bet you'd be surprised to "hear" what they have to say ... Or to "have" them say what you really would love to hear.

It might be even more healing that an irl conversation with them.

roughdiamonds1 · July 29, 2020, 05:06:29 PM

Glad you've had some a-ha moments! I agree that it feels liberating to realise that someone else's response to you is very little to do with you, and therefore there is nothing you do can make it better.

I do agree with All4peace, in that it definitely feels like the storyline or narrative my ILs take of me is a protective mechanism... which is still a choice, but I doubt they have the skills or capacity to choose a different way. Bruised and fragile egos are at the heart of it all, and to ask them to take responsibility, or admit parts of themselves that are undesirable would shatter these egos that they fight so hard to protect. Not an option for them.

I'm aware of what happened to my MIL to cause so much damage to her, and it's a sad story. I also now know about my BIL, because his story is connected to my MIL operating from such a damaged space. It's all connected, and it all makes sense when you pick it apart and understand it from their perspective.

I feel that the extended family made a choice to ignore what's going on also as a protective mechanism, because it's basic survival instincts. They do what they have to do to stay safe and stay in the pack.

That's why the sensitive, highly moral and truth tellers amongst us, do not fare well in these dynamics. Put up and shut up, or get out.

roughdiamonds1 · July 29, 2020, 05:18:26 PM

Quote from: Leonor on July 29, 2020, 03:46:03 PM
I think it would be fun to have a tea party with stuffed animals the way that children do. Go ahead and set the table and prepare coffee or tea or whatever with delicious little cakes and line up some dolls and teddy bears to "stand in" for the ils and LET THEM HAVE IT!

I bet it would feel very liberating to allow yourself to voice all that you are holding inside and I bet you'd be surprised to "hear" what they have to say ... Or to "have" them say what you really would love to hear.

It might be even more healing that an irl conversation with them.

Ha. I'm sure it would be very healing!! I do sometimes journal what I would say to them if I were given the opportunity. It helps!

PeanutButter · July 30, 2020, 06:54:26 AM

Quote from: all4peace on July 29, 2020, 01:23:16 PM
I guess in response to my response, I would say that while it's technically a choice it's probably far more a defensive mechanism for them to avoid seeing things about themselves that are unbearable. Either way, as adults we're all responsible for our behaviors and the ways they do and don't work in the adult world. For me, it helps me to have more empathy if I believe that they're protecting very wounded and fragile egos rather than deliberately trying to be jerks.

IME its important in my mind to differentiate the persons behaviors from their intentions or beliefs. I can see behaviors but I cannot ever know what someones intentions or beliefs are. So imo I dont need to explain to myself the reason they are making the choice. Im not judging them that way. Im deciding what behaviors are acceptable to me. Im deciding how to proceed if I accept the behavior. I can believe that they are deciding every time they think of me to think of me a certian way without knowing why they are doing it and without thinking that it means they are a jerk.
I agree with this

Quote from: roughdiamonds1 on July 29, 2020, 05:06:29 PM
it definitely feels like the storyline or narrative my ILs take of me is a protective mechanism... which is still a choice

roughdiamonds1 · July 30, 2020, 05:16:09 PM

Peanut Butter, you're so right... all we can ever do is judge the behaviours we see, and whether we accept them or not. I like the simplicity of that idea. It strips away all the other complicated stuff for a minute!

Awareness of the difference between behaviours and intentions shows an evolved mindset, and that's something I haven't ever seen my ILs do... they don't accept that my intention might be anything other than what they assign to it.

The saying that someone else's opinion of you is none of your business rings true here... and visa versa. You are totally entitled to believe and have the opinion that your ILs are choosing to be jerks because they refuse to look for other ways to view and connect with you. It's a completely understandable opinion, and it's nobody else's business except yours.

PeanutButter · July 30, 2020, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: roughdiamonds1 on July 30, 2020, 05:16:09 PM
The saying that someone else's opinion of you is none of your business rings true here... and visa versa. You are totally entitled to believe and have the opinion that your ILs are choosing to be jerks because they refuse to look for other ways to view and connect with you. It's a completely understandable opinion, and it's nobody else's business except yours.

Thanks for saying that. I didnt realize I needed to hear it.