Nice/Fake bil

[blacksheep7]

This summer my dh was in hospitalized ICU for five days, three in a coma.  He had Encephalitis/inflammation of the brain.I woke up the morning of father's day and found him on the floor convulsing.  Before I go on, he is fine today after having the summer off on sick leave and vacation time quietly at home.
Since we had planned to visit his 90 year old father, I waited till the end of the day to call and give them the news. I then called his sister and she said that she would call his brother.  Every day I would call them and give them updates on his condition, calling his brother myself then on.  He asked if there was anything he could do.  I thanked him and said thank you. He then proceeded in asking me to keep in touch which I did every day forward.
The day dh was being released my bil said that he would call and come over for a short visit to  which I said that would be nice.  No one came to the hospital.

Dh's sister called, his son and my kids every so often to have news.   Bil, well well well, nothing, nada, not even a call.   That pissed me off because that was when I realized who he really was.

A bit of background: the two brothers never had a close relationship.  In  the last twelve years I've been with dh, we would only see him when sil had parties, get togethers and holidays, practically every year.  He always acted nice, conversing, smiling typically like a good pleasant man. We would talk about our trips and future ones.

Now, I was flabbergasted   You know how you felt when you found out the true persona of a family member...cheated, a fraud!
When I told dh what I thought of his brother, he said that he was always independent.  I said that is not independent in my book, it's not giving a F*** about you, especially the way he always seemed concerned when I called.   Finally dh realized the truth.

We celebrated fil 90th birthday two months later and bil was there. He asked dh how he was and that was it. We both ignorned him after that and he felt it and walked away.
Last month he went to the funeral parlor, dh's aunt.  Bil wasn't there but somehow the subject came up with sil and she said that he didn't mean any harm in his action or non action should I say.  What the.....I told her my thoughts that people show you who they are in their actions.  I have a good relationship with sil being six years older and she always looked up to me as an older sister.  She even said that if ever she did anything that I wouldn't agree on or dislike to let her know.  I've always liked sil, we can have in depth conversations. It's her dh I don't like, a narcissist.  That's another story.
dh said that it wouldn't stop him from speaking to him again.  Wow, all is forgotten??? I didn't react to that statement until later at home when I realized that he was willing to put that aside. Dh is somewhat a people pleaser.  Not me, not anymore anyway!

I will never be able to face bil with the same eyes.  It was not the first time that he would act nice.  He  invited us to the  cottage he rented last summer after our visit  cause we were in the area. We chatted outside because of the pandemic.  He said that he would call.  Never did, again.

What are your thoughts or similar experiences.

[SunnyMeadow]

First of all, I'm so happy to read your dh is fine now. What a horrible thing and a shock for you both to go through this! Seriously, three days in a coma and five in ICU and he couldn't make an effort to see his brother? Wow 

I know how you feel to find out the type of person you thought they were, isn't the truth. I had an experience with two family members (in-laws) that shocked me to the core. I really and truly thought we all had good relationships until I overheard something awful they were saying about me. After this I didn't speak to them at all for months until I saw them at a family function. I said hello without a smile, and went on my way. That's how it's been from then on. I don't need to have relationships with them but I'm cordial and that's it. That's all they are worth to me, actually they are worth less but I'm barely cordial for my comfort.

You're right to not face BIL with the same eyes again. She showed you who he was, believe him and at least now you know. 

[blacksheep7]

Thank you for your kind and comforting words SunnyMeadow.  No, he couldn't even make an effort to call Yes, it was quite a stressful time for both of us.  My anxiety came back full force.  He couldn't drive for one month and had a lot of trouble not doing much, just sitting around watching t.v.. Of course all this weakened him to the core.
When he came out of his coma,  he had  a hallucination (saw christmas lights on the ward, in June) and a delusional vision of the main street he takes going to work, it was bombarded by aliens leaving big holes in the ground.  He even asked to take that route  going to visit him at the hospital. He later asked me if I saw it.  I just replied camly that I didn't take that street.  It took at least another week after his release for him to realize that his brain played a trick on him. 

I'm sorry that you had to go through this as well. Isn't it a shock when we think that it's family only trying to show a different side to who they really are. Just playing nice, keeping up appearances.
I agree that  the best thing to do is remain cordial,  just say hello and move on which I will continue to do.  I have no more interest in him.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Wow. I'm so sorry you went through that and I'm glad to hear that things turned out ok for your DH!

I noticed that BIL asked you to put forth quite a bit of effort during that awful time to keep him in the loop. The disconnect between that request and the amount of effort he made himself would be very hurtful to me as well!

[blacksheep7]

Wow. I'm so sorry you went through that and I'm glad to hear that things turned out ok for your DH!

I noticed that BIL asked you to put forth quite a bit of effort during that awful time to keep him in the loop. The disconnect between that request and the amount of effort he made himself would be very hurtful to me as well!

Thank you Call Me Cordelia.  Yes, it's over and we are doing well, just happy to be healthy and together making  the most of our life. We're looking forward to Christmas this year with our family, our children and g-children.

I appreciate the validation from you and SunnyMeadow.  Even though I knew that my feelings and emotions were truthful, it's always nice to have it from others you get it, not making excuses of any kind for that kind of behavior.

[bloomie]

Blacksheep7 - what a terrible time of  uncertainty you and your DH faced. So thankful he is recovered and you have such wonderful holiday gatherings to look forward to.

We have faced very similar circumstances with my own DH gravely ill. The responses of his sibling revealed such a callousness of heart it changed my already shaky relationship with her forever.

In DH's family the information seeking, something that is considered an entitlement, confused me as I interpreted it as concern and caring. Because that is what it would be for me if my own sibling were fighting for their life.

And then when things began to settle and DH returned home for recovery there was no follow though of actions and interest. Ghosted. Though months later his illness was chronicled in his sibling's holiday newsletter as something incredibly hard for her and her family to go through.  🙃

Some really ugly things came to light during that time - the details of which are not important.  What is important is what we did with the revelations going forward. We adjusted our level of contact and trust accordingly. That took time and processing. And we grieved the lack of familial love and support in DH's family.

This kind of experience has reminded me to be authentic and careful in my own words and actions toward those in my family and circle of influence when they are going through tough things. To follow through and do more then be in the 'know'.

Like you, I offer a cool, calm, kind and detached surface level persona when I am face to face with DH's sibling. That is what I can do with what I know of her true character.

[Cat of the Canals]

I noticed that BIL asked you to put forth quite a bit of effort during that awful time to keep him in the loop.

That was my thought as well. And again sounds like it was more motivated by wanting to seem engaged with what was happening with your H than out of genuine concern.

[blacksheep7]

Blacksheep7 - what a terrible time of  uncertainty you and your DH faced. So thankful he is recovered and you have such wonderful holiday gatherings to look forward to.

We have faced very similar circumstances with my own DH gravely ill. The responses of his sibling revealed such a callousness of heart it changed my already shaky relationship with her forever.

In DH's family the information seeking, something that is considered an entitlement, confused me as I interpreted it as concern and caring. Because that is what it would be for me if my own sibling were fighting for their life.

And then when things began to settle and DH returned home for recovery there was no follow though of actions and interest. Ghosted. Though months later his illness was chronicled in his sibling's holiday newsletter as something incredibly hard for her and her family to go through.  🙃

Some really ugly things came to light during that time - the details of which are not important.  What is important is what we did with the revelations going forward. We adjusted our level of contact and trust accordingly. That took time and processing. And we grieved the lack of familial love and support in DH's family.

This kind of experience has reminded me to be authentic and careful in my own words and actions toward those in my family and circle of influence when they are going through tough things. To follow through and do more then be in the 'know'.

Like you, I offer a cool, calm, kind and detached surface level persona when I am face to face with DH's sibling. That is what I can do with what I know of her true character.

Thanks for responding and sharing your similar story Bloomie.  I am happy to know that your DH also recovered from his grave illness.
I also thought that my bil was concerned.  BS all the way.
Your sil and family newsletter   How can family be so insensitive, yes Callous when it comes to a sibling or family member being gravely ill, a matter of life and death. 

[blacksheep7]

I noticed that BIL asked you to put forth quite a bit of effort during that awful time to keep him in the loop.

That was my thought as well. And again sounds like it was more motivated by wanting to seem engaged with what was happening with your H than out of genuine concern.

Yes Cat of the Canals, you are correct. Thanks.  That's how he always was, just showing phony concern, always playing nice. 

[bee well]

Hi Blacksheep7,

I'm very sorry to hear about your DH's health problems and hospitalization (!). That's sad that your DH and you had to go through such a difficult time without the support and empathy of BIL, when you were doing everything to keep him informed. That's a really tough place to be in. I'm glad your DH is better, that you have each other, and the possibility to enjoy time with your children and Grandkids.

Re: seeming lack of genuine concern: Invitations and promises to call without follow through fit the N-type future faking patterns. The superficially asking how things are also fits right in with that. The goal there is usually just for the faker to look good on the surface. They don't seem to care about the confusion and pain it causes. That "goes right over their heads."

People tend to show their true colors in times of great difficulty, don't they?  In my FOO and Inlaw family certain people have shown callousness in times of loss or illness as well. The enabling that goes on through it all is just mind boggling, and has its own sting.

In DH's family it's a risk to talk about our losses or difficulties because we things usually get glossed over, or are dramatized and then are potential fodder for town/family gossip. No filters in MILs game.

What follows fits in with the patterns I am seeing in the posts here. Some time I shared info about death of a close friend the MIL said " we live and then we die, my dear" then proceeded to tell me the gruesome details about 4 , you read it right, 4 fatal accidents that were in the news those last few days. (What?? Is she serious??) Unfortunately I just froze and did not end the call. MIL knows that I also have witnessed some very traumatic stuff myself and yet she hasn't enough empathy or brains to not talk about things like this in my presence. Then there's the complete lack of condolences for my friend's death. That really hurt. Due to this and other episodes Dh and have decided we are never ever sharing anything personal again unless it's just drab information and/or absolutely necessary. Unfortunately we slip up sometimes but we are only human.

Again, sorry you had to deal with such a painful realization when you and DH were going such a trying time. That's definitely a bell that's tough to unring.

Compliments to you for having the foresight to carefully measure your reactions, that's not always so easy to do in the circumstances you have described.

[blacksheep7]

Hi Blacksheep7,

I'm very sorry to hear about your DH's health problems and hospitalization (!). That's sad that your DH and you had to go through such a difficult time without the support and empathy of BIL, when you were doing everything to keep him informed. That's a really tough place to be in. I'm glad your DH is better, that you have each other, and the possibility to enjoy time with your children and Grandkids.

Re: seeming lack of genuine concern: Invitations and promises to call without follow through fit the N-type future faking patterns. The superficially asking how things are also fits right in with that. The goal there is usually just for the faker to look good on the surface. They don't seem to care about the confusion and pain it causes. That "goes right over their heads."

People tend to show their true colors in times of great difficulty, don't they?  In my FOO and Inlaw family certain people have shown callousness in times of loss or illness as well. The enabling that goes on through it all is just mind boggling, and has its own sting.

In DH's family it's a risk to talk about our losses or difficulties because we things usually get glossed over, or are dramatized and then are potential fodder for town/family gossip. No filters in MILs game.

What follows fits in with the patterns I am seeing in the posts here. Some time I shared info about death of a close friend the MIL said " we live and then we die, my dear" then proceeded to tell me the gruesome details about 4 , you read it right, 4 fatal accidents that were in the news those last few days. (What?? Is she serious??) Unfortunately I just froze and did not end the call. MIL knows that I also have witnessed some very traumatic stuff myself and yet she hasn't enough empathy or brains to not talk about things like this in my presence. Then there's the complete lack of condolences for my friend's death. That really hurt. Due to this and other episodes Dh and have decided we are never ever sharing anything personal again unless it's just drab information and/or absolutely necessary. Unfortunately we slip up sometimes but we are only human.

Again, sorry you had to deal with such a painful realization when you and DH were going such a trying time. That's definitely a bell that's tough to unring.

Compliments to you for having the foresight to carefully measure your reactions, that's not always so easy to do in the circumstances you have described.

Hi bee well,
Thank you for your reponse that I appreciate, kind and considerate.  I'm so sorry to hear that you have been through a similar circumstance, the death of your close friend. That must of been such a difficult time for you! We choose our friends so they remain dear to us. My condolences.   What your mil said «we live and we die» is the lowest of the low. COLD, especially in your time of grief.   I strongly agree that we see their (N) true colors in difficult situations or conflicts.  That is exactly what I told my lost child sister about our covert M when I just came Out of the FOG, before nc with foo.

You and your DH are wise to not share anything personal about your lives, no use.  They try to show perfection, kindness and love to others. My M & FOO are good at keeping up appearances but gossip is their favorite pastime. We learn quickly, don't we. 

Thanks for the compliments of my reactions but apparently my looks towards bil when I first saw him were not one of a «poker face».  I don't give a damn if he saw that.  He will be the one to avoid me the next time.

[bee well]

Hi Blacksheep,

Thank you for reading about my situation, and for the validation and condolences.

Experiences such as ours teach us to appreciate the gentleness of those who sincerely show it, and to love more deeply.

I agree, it was low, and cold. If it weren't for DH , whom I love immensely, MIL would not be in my life under any circumstances. I have experienced a lot of anger towards her for her treatment of me though the years but recently have been able to compartmentalize and choose my battles. I don't think I could handle it if we lived closer. she alternates her low blows with "kindness" and we don't resist it, it would just make things worse.

DH tells her what he thinks to some degree. It would be too destabilizing for him to go into full truth teller mode because that would probably mean losing some other important people in his life. At this time we accept "the cost" of that. It's that old "lesser of two evils" double bind that so many of us find ourselves faced with.

About your BIL: although we can measure our responses, for the sake of our peace, I see no reason to hide your displeasure (a look, obviously is not the same as railing again someone). So from my point of view, your look was just a natural response.

I think we would agree that people who show little or no regard for others should not have the luxury of expecting that everyone always will go happily skipping around them (although they often seem to think so).

Again, enjoy the holidays with your DH and your Dear Ones!

[blacksheep7]

bee well, thank you for the holiday wishes.  To you and your loved ones as well!

And to all the OOTFers, peace and serenity.

[JenniferSmith]

A bit of background: the two brothers never had a close relationship.  In  the last twelve years I've been with dh, we would only see him when sil had parties, get togethers and holidays, practically every year.  He always acted nice, conversing, smiling typically like a good pleasant man. We would talk about our trips and future ones.

What jumped out at me is that maybe this action wasn't really out of character for this brother. You mention that the brothers have never been close and you only see him when SIL throws gatherings (which implies that he isn't the one making any effort to have gatherings, etc - he leaves all that to his partner, and just tags along passively). 

If those things are true, I might tend to think that while his behavior during this crisis was very hurtful to you, its actually not too much of a deviation from how this brother has always been. 

If his true nature is to be more disengaged and disconnected, the comment he made about visiting when your husband recovered might have been his brief attempt to act in spite of those tendencies, and then he quickly reverted to form by not showing up.

I don't know if this perspective rings true, but it was something I wondered about.

[Hilltop]

I've read it a little bit like JenniferSmith has.  The two brothers are not close.  It appears that your BIL is not comfortable with phone calls.  As you said he previously invited you to a cabin which you went however afterward he didn't call.  He asked you to call and update him on his brother, he offered support in the way he knew how which was to ask if there was anything he could do but when things resolved he has reverted to his passive self.  I don't feel like he is being malicious, I feel like this is his personality.  It is the SIL who organises parties and he passively goes along.  Some people are simply not good in crisis situations and for someone who is passive and who isn't close to his brother he may have felt he was intruding.  I know this may sound weird but as the brothers aren't in each others lives, it may feel strange to BIL to be calling.  He may feel he isn't really part of his brothers life, which by the sounds of it, he isn't, so he may not have felt comfortable to suddenly be calling every day, when he already seems uncomfortable with phone calls.

I get that you think they are family and should be there etc, it was a tough time for you however there are long family patterns at play here.  Has your BIL ever shown cruelty toward you, insulted you, put you down?  It may be that he is socially awkward, introverted, passive. Your DH has said he will let it go, no doubt because he is aware of how his brother is.

It may not be that your BIL meant to be malicious or selfish, it may just be that he operated how he always has and you expected more from him at this time.  He simply may not be able to give that, if he is not close with his brother, he simply may not have been comfortable reaching out, he may have felt he was intruding.  I understand this may not take the sting out of it for you however it may not solely be that he is fake.  Perhaps there are other factors at play here.

Keep in mind that if the brothers have always acted in a superficial manner toward each other, what are the underlying reasons for that, do they not get along, is it just how they are,  sometimes you can't expect superficial to go into genuine close deep mode.  Their relationship may not be built this way.

[blacksheep7]

A bit of background: the two brothers never had a close relationship.  In  the last twelve years I've been with dh, we would only see him when sil had parties, get togethers and holidays, practically every year.  He always acted nice, conversing, smiling typically like a good pleasant man. We would talk about our trips and future ones.

What jumped out at me is that maybe this action wasn't really out of character for this brother. You mention that the brothers have never been close and you only see him when SIL throws gatherings (which implies that he isn't the one making any effort to have gatherings, etc - he leaves all that to his partner, and just tags along passively). 

If those things are true, I might tend to think that while his behavior during this crisis was very hurtful to you, its actually not too much of a deviation from how this brother has always been. 
[/i]
If his true nature is to be more disengaged and disconnected, the comment he made about visiting when your husband recovered might have been his brief attempt to act in spite of those tendencies, and then he quickly reverted to form by not showing up.

I don't know if this perspective rings true, but it was something I wondered about.

First off, I wasn't specific about my sil and it may have caused confusion in my story. Sorry. The sil I was writing about, the one that always has the gatherings is the sister of the two brothers. She is the one that keeps the family together since my mil died.
I know for a fact that the two brothers were not close as they have very different personalites and interests.  My dh is also guilty of  not making a effort to have a relationship with him in the past, before we were together, since 2008. He is not interested in having a close relationship with him. We have been to his house two or three times, for christmas.  He even visited us once when he was in the neighbourhood.

I will still stick to my theory about him not giving a damn. 

[blacksheep7]

I've read it a little bit like JenniferSmith has.  The two brothers are not close.  It appears that your BIL is not comfortable with phone calls.  As you said he previously invited you to a cabin which you went however afterward he didn't call.  He asked you to call and update him on his brother, he offered support in the way he knew how which was to ask if there was anything he could do but when things resolved he has reverted to his passive self.  I don't feel like he is being malicious, I feel like this is his personality.  It is the SIL who organises parties and he passively goes along.  Some people are simply not good in crisis situations and for someone who is passive and who isn't close to his brother he may have felt he was intruding.  I know this may sound weird but as the brothers aren't in each others lives, it may feel strange to BIL to be calling.  He may feel he isn't really part of his brothers life, which by the sounds of it, he isn't, so he may not have felt comfortable to suddenly be calling every day, when he already seems uncomfortable with phone calls.

I get that you think they are family and should be there etc, it was a tough time for you however there are long family patterns at play here.  Has your BIL ever shown cruelty toward you, insulted you, put you down?  It may be that he is socially awkward, introverted, passive. Your DH has said he will let it go, no doubt because he is aware of how his brother is.

It may not be that your BIL meant to be malicious or selfish, it may just be that he operated how he always has and you expected more from him at this time.  He simply may not be able to give that, if he is not close with his brother, he simply may not have been comfortable reaching out, he may have felt he was intruding.  I understand this may not take the sting out of it for you however it may not solely be that he is fake.  Perhaps there are other factors at play here.

Keep in mind that if the brothers have always acted in a superficial manner toward each other, what are the underlying reasons for that, do they not get along, is it just how they are,  sometimes you can't expect superficial to go into genuine close deep mode.  Their relationship may not be built this way.

No, he is not malicious, never has been but is selfish.  I do understand what you're saying that I couldn't expect them to go into a close deep mode as you wrote. Butttt why show deep concern on the phone calls and then fade away?  There is empathy missing.  We're talking serious illness in a sibling which is a matter to show some. 

I appreciate all the comments from you Hilltop and JenniferSmith.  It is food for thought.

[Call Me Cordelia]

My DH has one sister. Their relationship is a lot like how I'm interpreting your husband's with his own brother, Blacksheep. They were never close as children, but are pleasant to each other when thrown into company at family events. There's no animosity, but they rarely initiate contact on their own except for perhaps birthday wishes.

I think where the hurt comes in is the vague knowledge that such a relationship is so much less than it could be. I think most people really do desire to be close with family, as an abstract good at least, even if their particular situation leaves much to be desired. When BIL asked for daily updates, he was acting like that illusion of a caring brother. I also doubt it was malicious, possibly just had the idea that he should care about this and acted according to that script, but didn't have the skills or insight to be actually supportive. You went along with it, at great personal sacrifice. Then when the crisis was over it was back to acting more or less as if he didn't have a brother. I think it's that whiplash between the fantasy and the reality that can be so very hurtful. You were probably desperate for support at that time. I'm so so glad your DH has recovered.

Another thing at play with your BIL appears to be lack of object permanence. That's common to emotionally immature people, and I see it in my IL family too. You were in the area so you were invited. It was nice. Then he never called like he said. If you hadn't been in the area who knows when you would have seen him. You were out of sight, out of mind. All effort to remember you exist is put on other people. Usually his wife. My own DH was supposed to travel for work to SIL's city and they would have met up. But Covid restrictions have indefinitely postponed the trip. DH communicated he was no longer coming, SIL acknowledged. And that is that. And apparently that's what those two are capable of.

They do both have other more mature long term relationships and friendships, but when a relationship is forged in a traumatic environment, it can be really hard to move past that without a ton of work from both sides, imo. My DH acknowledges that's probably what's going on, but he's decided it's not worth the effort to put much time and energy there. He has a very full life of his own and just doesn't have the bandwidth to delve into FOO relationships. He's comfortable where things are with his sister. Fair!

[Hilltop]

Hey Blacksheep, I think Call Me Cordelia has articulated what I was thinking much better.  I am sorry your husband was so sick and it would have been such a stressful time.  Perhaps you thought that's when family comes together, they would be concerned and your BIL simply didn't act that way. Not that this is the same but I remember after a family funeral my FOO all went out to dinner and my husband and myself were not invited.  I was floored at the snub.  After all my parents had said family should be together at all the important events in life such as weddings, funerals etc, and then they went and did this.  I remember my husband asking me why I was surprised.  As he said to me, they have always acted like this, they weren't doing anything new and yet for some reason I was expecting things to be different. At the time, I couldn't see it, of course I was expecting things to be different, it was a funeral, I expected family to be family.

I had this family version in my head of what we should be doing, comforting each other, showing concern and genuine care and then when my family did what they always did, the reality of it was jarring.  It's like a flash of insight.  I couldn't see it for a very long time but I finally saw them and who they are. 

I think you have seen your BIL for who he is.  As you say he is not malicious but he is also not close.  He does and says the right things but it's all very surface level.  Now you have seen beneath that and what it means.  You don't see the nice man, you see a man ticking off all the correct boxes that he needs to tick off.

You are not wrong, that he is selfish, yes a normal close sibling would have called and shown concern.  This just isn't their relationship. He may even be nice, I mean you can be nice as an acquaintance but not close like family, he may have even been concerned, just in that detached way these relationships are built on. It's jarring when you see what an actual superficial relationship is.  Sometimes the family history is just too much to overcome that.

I'm glad your husband is getting better.

[blacksheep7]

My DH has one sister. Their relationship is a lot like how I'm interpreting your husband's with his own brother, Blacksheep. They were never close as children, but are pleasant to each other when thrown into company at family events. There's no animosity, but they rarely initiate contact on their own except for perhaps birthday wishes.

I think where the hurt comes in is the vague knowledge that such a relationship is so much less than it could be. I think most people really do desire to be close with family, as an abstract good at least, even if their particular situation leaves much to be desired. When BIL asked for daily updates, he was acting like that illusion of a caring brother. I also doubt it was malicious, possibly just had the idea that he should care about this and acted according to that script, but didn't have the skills or insight to be actually supportive. You went along with it, at great personal sacrifice. Then when the crisis was over it was back to acting more or less as if he didn't have a brother. I think it's that whiplash between the fantasy and the reality that can be so very hurtful. You were probably desperate for support at that time. I'm so so glad your DH has recovered.

Another thing at play with your BIL appears to be lack of object permanence. That's common to emotionally immature people, and I see it in my IL family too. You were in the area so you were invited. It was nice. Then he never called like he said. If you hadn't been in the area who knows when you would have seen him. You were out of sight, out of mind. All effort to remember you exist is put on other people. Usually his wife. My own DH was supposed to travel for work to SIL's city and they would have met up. But Covid restrictions have indefinitely postponed the trip. DH communicated he was no longer coming, SIL acknowledged. And that is that. And apparently that's what those two are capable of.

They do both have other more mature long term relationships and friendships, but when a relationship is forged in a traumatic environment, it can be really hard to move past that without a ton of work from both sides, imo. My DH acknowledges that's probably what's going on, but he's decided it's not worth the effort to put much time and energy there. He has a very full life of his own and just doesn't have the bandwidth to delve into FOO relationships. He's comfortable where things are with his sister. Fair!

Yes, it is the whiplash between fantasy and reality.  This bil is a university graduate with a high status job, now retired.   Somehow before coming Out of the FOG I would have never suspected that people in mangement lacked emotional immaturity.  This is a good example of the difference between IQ and EQ.

Dh and I have a good full life also and we leave it at that with the rest of the his family which we've had our ups and downs realizing that from them, it was always «what's in it for me».

Now the latest news about bil from mil (not their mother, died years back. fil's wife)  He went to visit their father on christmas day and mentionned that my dh surely wouldn't visit him because of his fragility, might get Covid due to his encephalitis. We're both double vaccinated.  Hmmmmm.  That's bil theory, not ours.  Again, trying to show concern and defending him.   When dh told me this, I just said hmmm.  Dh didn't say anything and we left it at that.  After a few years, I finally learned to not react anymore.