It's their world, we're just living in it, I guess...

[Cat of the Canals]

For many years, until we moved out of reach, a defining boundary issue with PDmil was that she would just show up at our house unannounced. It was over an hour drive for her, so there was an implied obligation to play host since she'd "driven so far." And if it had been a once or twice a year thing, we probably wouldn't have minded too much, but it became a multiple-times-a-month thing. We work from home, so it was incredibly disruptive to our work schedule, aside from just being rude in general.

As we learned more about boundaries, we realized she wasn't going to take even our more overt hints. So my husband flat out told her that she needed to arrange visits with us. No more drop ins. She agreed and then naturally found ways to subvert the boundary. Half the time she'd text the night before and tell us she was coming the next day... not what we meant when we said arrange visits with us. The other half of the time, she'd go to my BIL's house five minutes from us and then call to let us know she was "in town."

I thought moving 1500 miles away put this whole thing to rest, once and for all. Wishful thinking! She visited for the first time a year ago. We had hoped we'd get a free year after that, but two months ago, MIL excitedly told my husband that FIL had offered to fly them out again in early October. I was anxious about it at first, but after some consideration, I've decided I'm done being "scared" of her. There's nothing she can do to me.

Naturally, despite my new confidence, she's once again found a way to get my anxiety up. Because in the two months since first mentioning the visit, she has yet to tell us if/when they are coming. Six weeks ago she said something along the lines of, "We're still planning on visiting..." which made it sound somewhat up in the air, and now we're 2 weeks away from October 1st.

I couldn't help but imagine that this means they're not actually coming (previously, there were times we explicitly invited her to our home and she just never showed up or called to let us know she wasn't coming), but my husband informed me this morning that I shouldn't get my hopes up since FIL was in charge of arranging everything. FIL is very Type A when it comes to planning things. H thinks they very likely have bought tickets and booked a hotel room, etc., MIL just hasn't bothered to let us know.

And whether they're coming or not is sort of moot. The main issue is that this is so typical MIL, behaving as if our daily life and schedule is just wide open for whenever is convenient for her. I just can't imagine behaving this way. I went to visit my family a few weeks ago, and I ran every little thing by my brother first to make sure it worked for their schedule, because in my mind, that's the polite thing to do as a visitor. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but 

So yeah... this is mostly a vent.

[mustard_seed]

I would be so anxious about this too. The not-knowing, the constant question-mark in your brain like is this going to happen or not? Should I be mentally and emotionally preparing for this visit, or going about my normal business?

One thing, though-- if they aren't going to bother with sharing their plans with you-- maybe it will be easier to have some pre-determined events and activities and engagements that week? "Oh, we thought you had decided not to come and I bought tickets for a conference here in town that week. I'll be tied up while you're here, except for Friday when I can do dinner."

If she isn't going to modify her behavior and be more considerate and communicative about visits (as evidenced by her history when you lived closer and this recent lack of communication about October), then she will have to deal with the consequences that come with that, i.e. people don't plan their life around what she *might* do.

I'm sure it's tough and more complicated than I'm wanting it to be for you. If you're at all like me, you have to deal with your husband's issues around it too. If I remember correctly from your other posts he's aware of the PD/abuse issues, but that you still worry about his exposure to her abuse quite a bit.

This stuff is maddening and we are 100% here for vent sessions if you need them. <3

[NarcKiddo]

Is there a wide range of hotels they might stay in? Is there any way you can find out whether they have a reservation from the hotel directly if there are only a few options? Pretend you're calling to confirm it or something? A big box hotel is not going to have staff who will mention such a call when they check in - if it is a family run guesthouse type place then there is more danger of that. Just a thought. Forewarned being forearmed and all that...

[bee well]

Oh my...

I just wanted to send solidarity as I have been dealing with pre uPD visit anxiety for a while now, and it's almost time. I won't go into all as I am about to go back to preparing. Even after deciding I won't worry about things being good enough, still spending too much time on it.

I can relate when you say, even after all the boundaries you and DH have up, and you deciding not to be afraid, that the anxiety still pops up. You are human, after all, and they have a knack for "finding a new way."

I was talking to DH about this the other day. Dealing with this stuff at times seems like that game "whack a mole."

That she would mention the visit and still keep it hanging in the air sounds par for the course: it's possibily passive agressive and controlling, and certainly not polite behaviour.

I know this might not be practical and not a permanent solution, but I wonder if you would be able to plan to be away from home when she visits?

[treesgrowslowly]

Oh my Cat of the Canals - this would drive me crazy!!

You are a saint for how you are managing this.

In my opinion, this is just totally not normal in this day and age in most any place I know of!! Like what? Who shows up unannounced now that we all have phones we literally can alert people to anything anytime such as "Hey I'm on your street, fancy a visit?" can be texted so so easily.

Never mind that for over 100 years people have had the ability to plan visits ahead of time with the ahem, old school telephone or a letter. Geez! These people really are living on a different planet from you with this unannounced visit behaviour!!  indeed.

As you can so plainly see yourself too, it's such a narcissistic power play.

Total denial on their end, about the true status of your relationship with them and how you feel about them visiting unannounced. It does remind me of when my uPD relatives would do something I detested, and if I took a stand, it almost guaranteed that they would do it even more. Ugh. I really feel for you. So frustrating.

Trees

[Cat of the Canals]

I know you are my people because not one of you suggested asking her directly if she's coming -- which would have the potential consequence of reminding her if she really had forgotten. Now that we're down to the 2 week mark, though, H will likely call tomorrow to find out what's up. I still have my fingers crossed, even if it's a longshot.

mustard_seed, you are 100% correct. The rule I came up with when she first started directly violating our no-drop-ins boundary was, "I won't give my time to someone who behaves as if it has no value." One complicating factor (and the reason my anxiety level went down initially) is that my SIL was also supposed to be coming, and she's great. Her schedule is busier than MIL's, so there's a chance they've been waiting to figure out when she's available. I have a sneaking suspicion that she's not going to end up coming after all. (Another ruse MIL used when we lived closer was implying that SIL wanted to see us and then showing up by herself.) In that case, I might indeed make myself scarce for a day or two during the visit.

NarcKiddo, there are a TON of hotels here, but I suspect they'd stay in the same hotel they did last year. They are not "try new things" people. I might try that. I thought I could look up their flight bookings (only one airline really runs from where they live to here), but I apparently need their reservation number to do that. Drat.

Even after deciding I won't worry about things being good enough, still spending too much time on it.

Are we the same person? I told myself before their last visit: I'm not making myself crazy cleaning the house from top-to-bottom... and then I cleaned the house top-to-bottom. My problem is I get so anxious I have to DO something, but I'm also so frazzled that the only thing I can focus on is something relatively mindless like cleaning. 

Thoughts and prayers for your own PD visit. 

trees, I can't imagine behaving as entitled as my MIL does... especially when directly asked NOT to do something. The silver lining is that it does serve as a constant reminder that she is "that bad," though.

[Leonor]

Hello, Cat!

The first few weeks of October, hmm ...
Why, isn't that when you have scheduled your:

Mani-pedi
Spa day
Yoga retreat
Girls night out
Massage
Reiki session
Book reading
Therapy
Museum wandering
Long hike/bike ride
Aromatherapy
Best-friend brunch
Antique hunt
Concert tickets ...

... I have a hunch that when the ILs try to throw their weight around DH slips into the FOG and leaves you to the heavy emotional lift.

Let them have their little family time and you get out and do something fun every day they're there, at least for a few hours, with no ILs or DH allowed, no groups, pairs or dates.

[bee well]

Hi Again Cat of the Canals,

I agree with Trees. You are to be commended for how you are handling this. I don't know what I would do if MIL just showed up like that.

I also agree with Leonor's reminder. Self- care is the way to go. According to the best of one's abilities, and available resources, of course.

Yep, you got it right there. There are times where I keep busy because I don't know what else to do (flight mode).

I have just posted a long post about my MIL situation. I was not going to post but I thought about what you have been dealing with, and it reminded me that sharing with people who "get it" can be a really good for of self-care.

[Cat of the Canals]

So H talked to MIL today.

The bad news: they are coming.
The good news: SIL is coming, too.
The other bad news: H asked directly what days they were coming (because duh????). MIL originally texted "yes, we are."  A while later, she called and rambled on as usual, eventually getting around to, "So we're flying in on October 2nd." More rambling and then, "And then we'll be there through the 7th... or 8th."

Really? You don't know the dates???

I call B.S. This woman's entire world revolves around her next vacation/trip/outing. We starting hearing about her last vacation to Florida 3 months before it happened. She's being shady about it because H told her at the start of all of this visit nonsense that he's comfortable with 4 days. Last time she scheduled six days. "But the first and last days will be for travel!" I laughed out loud at that, and guess who called the day they flew in, wondering if they might "stop by?"

So I think the real reason we didn't hear from her about the trip all this time was that she booked 7 days and knew it would piss H off. So she's been avoiding the subject until the very last minute, making it less likely that they'll be able to change their itinerary. And again, "Well, I don't know if we'll see you at all on the first day." Laughing out loud again, because pleeeeeease. She really thinks she can use that line again?

And I'm laughing harder at how bad she is at scheming. This "7th or 8th" business is so easy to dance around. I already told my husband, "If she wants to play this game with the dates, then I'm going to behave as if we won't see them on either day." 

[olivegirl]

Cat,

The power play is so obvious with these types.

My domineering, haughty mother would keep threatening to show up at my doorstep (I live 1k miles away) and stay indefinitely and without notice.

She'd cackle as if I would be freaking out about my housekeeping and the notion that I'd be in a deep panic (the Queen is here!) trying to please her royal highness 👸🏻!

She's not the landlord of my house so why she thinks she can wield this power is a testament to her obsession with control.

So in one of our heated discussions where she made it known that I will take her in, whether I like it or not and that she will put me in my place by showing up at my house with her luggage regardless if I invite or not!!!

I finally lost my composure (I know, I know) and informed her that I will contact the police if she trespasses.

My mother scoffed at me and so I had to remind her when she and my uNpd King father kicked my spouse, my kids and myself out of their house for having the audacity to defend myself when I was being accused of acts that I did not commit (uBpd mother has a bit of a lying problem).

My arrogant father declared his house was his castle and that I was being disrespectful for defending myself and that I must adhere to his rules or leave his castle.

So as my father stood up and pointed toward the door, my little family left.  His house, his rules.  My uBpd mother stood there, arms crossed, head up in the air.

So I took than incident to remind my mother that she took great enjoyment in kicking me out of her house and I therefore will not hesitate to do the same to her in my house. 

I know I engaged and gave her fuel but I must say for once it felt good to stand up to the haughty Queen Mother and contemptuous King Father.

[mustard_seed]

Cat, kudos to you for giving yourself full permission to opt out on the 7th and 8th. But also for being brave and making this decision as you said earlier to not let her scare you anymore. It seems like you're managing to engage, but in a way that honors your own needs and retains self-respect, which is awesome.

I hope you'll keep us updated. It's nice to have some idea of what it could look like to re-engage but in a self-honoring and empowered way.

Glad SIL will be there to make the situation more enjoyable for you.

There's really something about PD parents and *our* territory and their entitlement, isn't there? It makes perfect sense now when you explain about the four-day visit preference your husband stated... seems obvious she wanted her way and this rude scheme was her way to get it. 

Good luck and keep us posted.
MS

[Cat of the Canals]

Thanks, mustard_seed. I think I'd be questioning my newfound bravery more if it was untested, but I did just successfully make it through a visit with my own PDmom. I think I turned a corner somewhere, and I just can't take either of them seriously as threats anymore. They are sad, bitter old women, and I truly couldn't care less what they think of me anymore.

She's not the landlord of my house so why she thinks she can wield this power is a testament to her obsession with control.

I love this. When I first told my mother we were thinking about moving out of state, she started up with the, "Maybe I'll just start showing up on your doorstep!" Spoken as both a threat, and something she'd been entitled to.

[bee well]

Hi Cat of the Canals,

I am a bit late coming back in here and I have to admit I have been absorbed in my own MIL BS. Thank you again for responding me on that thread.

I like what you say here:"I think I'd be questioning my newfound bravery more if it was untested, but I did just successfully make it through a visit with my own PDmom. I think I turned a corner somewhere, and I just can't take either of them seriously as threats anymore. They are sad, bitter old women, and I truly couldn't care less what they think of me anymore."

I'm glad to hear you got through the visit with your M.

Where you are in that though quoted above is where I want to be,

You are very brave and the fact that you have decided not to let your MIL scare you anymore is huge. you are seeing through it and I hope you will stay in that mode.

This, I think, is a sign of healing. Yes!!!

Her not wanting to pin down a date is classic. A way to try to keep you all on edge and exercise control.

You write:  "This "7th or 8th" business is so easy to dance around. I already told my husband, "If she wants to play this game with the dates, then I'm going to behave as if we won't see them on either day."  "

I say, it's your time. Plan accordingly.

The fact that SIL will be there is really good. Please focus on enjoying her presence as much as you can.

You are doing a great job, Rock on!

Please let us know how it goes.

[Cat of the Canals]

Thanks, bee well. I've wished in the past (and sometimes still do) that PDmil and/or PDmom would push me to the breaking point of really telling them how I feel, for better or for worse. Then I argue with myself -- more drama is just giving them what they want, isn't it? I suppose it's further evidence that there's just no winning with PDs. Even if we play the GR/MC game perfectly, all that really does is buy us more time with them. Yay.

Oh, and there's been an amusing update on the dates. (Sometimes laughing at their antics is the only way to stay sane.) She left a voicemail today, stating that they can't check in to their AirBNB for several hours after their flight gets in, so "maybe" we can get together. So much for "I don't know if we'll even see you on that day." Did I call it, or did I call it?  Love the "maybe," as if she isn't going to drive straight here from the airport.

But wait! There's more! I think maybe she realized how muddying the waters on what day they're leaving had the potential to backfire, so she also said, "Our flight is delayed on the 8th, so I was thinking we could do breakfast before we leave." So much for "That day will be for travel." She played her weaselly game and booked her seven days, and now she'll be damned if she doesn't squeeze every last minute out of it.

Also note that she said their flight is "delayed." Complete baloney. They are simply taking a later flight than they did the last time they visited. But I like that she makes it sound like it's out of her hands.

And the breakfast thing has a whole new layer of PD fun if you know that my husband has staunchly refused to dine out with her for years. This is a non-negotiable boundary for him, but she thinks that since she brought it up ahead of time, he'll "have to." She really doesn't know him at all if she thinks this is going to happen, but it'll be kind of funny to see her try.

[bee well]

Yeah that's true. there really is no winning. I wish I had the strength to stay in permanent grey rock.

This is true: "Even if we play the GR/MC game perfectly, all that really does is buy us more time with them. Yay."

BIL says I should have said exactly what I thought long ago. Maybe I should have. Maybe not. He says everthing he things as if it will make her change. It's a double bind.

It's all a matter of choices, doing the best for us. Perfection is a mirage. They don't change.

I agree about laughing, Cat of the Canals. You've got their number down.

The breakfast thing should be amusing. Can you have popcorn as you watch the convicing? (Just kidding but not really.)

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hmmm. Presumably SIL is an adult too, can you simply deal with her? Maybe plan something for you and she to do together?

A lot of this is familiar to me too. My uPD parents had a weird thing about how they HAD to stay a complete week to make the trip "worth it," (so insulting) when we lived a day's drive from them. And they were making the ultimate sacrifice by driving two days so we owed them seven full days of our time. Flying, of course, was not worth the expense ever. They were also weird about flying being for "rich people" and they would have died rather than do something so "above themselves". Really weird reverse snobbery. (Item: We would fly to visit my IL's and vice versa.) Anyway... all that to say. Been there. Never did figure out these boundaries. You are doing fantastic.

[Cat of the Canals]

You guys really our the best. I don't know what I'd do without the support here.

More shenanigans this morning: H and I got the bivalent boosters earlier this week. Kicked my BUTT. A couple of hours after the shot, I had a mildly alarming moment where my heart rate shot up to 200 bpm. It went down after a few minutes, and now I'm fluctuating between normal and somewhat elevated (a pretty normal side effect, from what I've read).

H decided to mention this to MIL the next day. He meant it as a harmless anecdote. I asked him beforehand, "Is that a good idea?" MIL is generally on a strict info diet when it comes to health topics. She either uses it as gossip fodder or tries to embarrass you with it at the dinner table. (H once mentioned needing to get a cavity filled in passing and then in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner, MIL asked, "SO HOW MANY CAVITIES DID YOU HAVE? DID YOU GET THEM FILLED YET?") We decided we didn't care who she tells, and I'm not embarrassed by tachycardia.

Of course she does something else with it entirely: CATASTROPHIZING! She texted this morning: "If Cat's heart rate goes above 100, call 911." He told her I was fine. She sent another text: "What is her heart rate right now?" I told him, "We are not doing this. Tell her it's normal, and leave it at that."

All of this is made more absurd because my background is nursing! I'm more than capable of determining what is a medical emergency and what isn't.

Trying to remind myself that her unsolicited advice is Her Stuff.

We figured out later that she's camping right now. Translation: she's bored, and my imagined medical emergency is her entertainment.

[bee well]

Oh My Goodness, Cat of the Canals.

I'm sorry to hear about the side effects, especially at a time when you are dealing with MIL situation. I hope, today, you are better, and taking care of yourself.

You shared: "H decided to mention this to MIL the next day. He meant it as a harmless anecdote. I asked him beforehand, "Is that a good idea?" MIL is generally on a strict info diet when it comes to health topics. She either uses it as gossip fodder or tries to embarrass you with it at the dinner table. (H once mentioned needing to get a cavity filled in passing and then in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner, MIL asked, "SO HOW MANY CAVITIES DID YOU HAVE? DID YOU GET THEM FILLED YET?") We decided we didn't care who she tells, and I'm not embarrassed by tachycardia."

(The dinner table as stage for attempting to create humiliation or imaginary emergencies seems to be a common theme . bleh!)

Tachcardia is nothing to be embarassed of. Nor cavities.

This is classic: "She texted this morning: "If Cat's heart rate goes above 100, call 911." He told her I was fine. She sent another text: "What is her heart rate right now?" I told him, "We are not doing this. Tell her it's normal, and leave it at that."

You wrote: "We figured out later that she's camping right now. Translation: she's bored, and my imagined medical emergency is her entertainment."

You also wrote: "All of this is made more absurd because my background is nursing! I'm more than capable of determining what is a medical emergency and what isn't."

It's very absurd, and can also be demoralizing, to be told, directly or indirectly, that we are incompetent. Especially about the competences we know we have!

Not surprising that she would behave that way--- the info, of which she has so little, is fuel for disordered people. And when they don't get it, they  persist until they get that fuel. I agree that the manufactured emergency becomes entertainment to "camp out" on

Your response,   "We are not doing this. Tell her it's normal, and leave it at that." shows a great deal of clarity and calmness.

You have shown a great deal of patience in the face of it all.

More patience to you as all of this passes through.

You are doing great work.

Please keep sharing.

[NarcKiddo]

More shenanigans this morning: H and I got the bivalent boosters earlier this week. Kicked my BUTT. A couple of hours after the shot, I had a mildly alarming moment where my heart rate shot up to 200 bpm. It went down after a few minutes, and now I'm fluctuating between normal and somewhat elevated (a pretty normal side effect, from what I've read).

Ugh. I hate it when they intrude on medical stuff and make it all into a catastrophe. My mother then announces to all and sundry that she is suffering more than the ill person due to the stress of it all!

Just chiming in here because I had the bivalent booster on Tuesday so wanted to tell you my experience.

All previous jabs have resulted in a few hours of totally grim fatigue which went as fast as it arrived. The bivalent jab did not, but I had very elevated heart rate overnight on the day I had it. I was not particularly surprised because when I had Covid (most likely Omicron given the timing of it) my main symptom apart from fatigue was an elevated heart rate for no reason. When I was well enough to start exercising again I noticed the heart rate going higher than I would have expected it to (I always use a monitor) but the recovery to normal was as fast as usual so I was happy with that. I just took care not to push the heart rate too high. My resting heart rate this week since the jab has been slightly higher than normal (not drastic) but it seems to be going to normal levels again now.

I'm sure MIL's shenanigans are doing nothing to help your heart rate! Hope it settles soon.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Cat!

You are handling all of these shenanigans like a champ. Thanks for sharing with us because in sharing with one another like this, I really think we feel good supporting each other, and we feel supported and seen - all those shenanigans are so familiar!! right?

I hope you are feeling better now. I am going for my next shot again soon too. Will keep in mind that it can cause some rough side effects. Really sorry you got hit with some of those, and hope they subsided.

Your post about how MIL reacted, pretending she has as much medical knowledge as you do - is classic. As you well know. Pretending she knows what you should do - classic narcissism. Pretending she's good at taking care of others. Classic narcissist parent stuff.

It reminds me of all the stuff I've read about how narcissists do not actually have a well developed self. When something happens to someone else, they are able to obsess about it (but not in a concerned way, in a very immature way). I watched my narcissistic parent obsess about others, over and over and over throughout my life before NC, and it was never real concern. It was just obsessing that was due to their own stuff.

I remember having a period in my life, years ago, where I realized, my uNPDm wants her concerned phone calls to look like real concern. I got to a place where I realized it's not concern. It's lacking insight, empathy, boundaries, self-awareness, yada yada yada, the list of things we know about narc traits.

I remember reading a lot about how narcs want to feel in control, because they don't actually have that internal locus of control developed that a normally developed person has.

They want their behaviours to look like concern, but it's really not possible since they don't have the emotional development that enables them to take care of others in a healthy way.

Over and over they try to look concerned about us, but they don't have the capacity to take care of anyone. It is a sad cycle they are in, but also, frustrating for us to be pulled into. You are dealing with it really well.

Because of her immature state, her unsolicited advice is intrusive to your FOC rather than helpful. When a person is not a narc, it feels nice when they show concern for us. But with narcissist, we know it is not real concern, so we know it's just unsolicited advice coming from a narc place, with all the narc trappings that all narc engagement involves....ugh!!

Hang in there and keep putting down those boundaries like you are!

Trees