Narcs refuse to let you have boundaries you are there to serve them. What are some of the worst boundary busting stories you all have?
My mom would pick the lock on the bathroom door when I was showering. Under that same excuse every time that I did not seal the shower curtain correctly and water would get on the floor and the toilet would fall through she would stare at me naked an berate me for the curtain. She never did that to GC
It started in my teens and continued if ever I came home well into my 30's. Will not go home now. Nope
Sunshine... That's such a specific story but my mother did the same thing to me, ever since I was too big for her to give me a bath. She had to "check that I had sealed the curtain." And then when that excuse would no longer hold water (ba da bing!), I had to call her to check that I had rinsed out my hair fully, and then it was to harass me on behalf of uPDF to stop draining the river.
She didn't do it to my middle sister. Just me, and then when I left, to the youngest one.
There have been several such stories on here but I was encouraged to be in the bathroom with my mother when she was doing allll of the business. I knew all about periods and stuff first hand.
Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on September 26, 2022, 01:04:38 PM
There have been several such stories on here but I was encouraged to be in the bathroom with my mother when she was doing allll of the business. I knew all about periods and stuff first hand.
Huh. They are so alike! Mine, too, always wanted company on the toilet or would provide her company to us.
Also at night she could not be bothered to go to the bathroom so she kept a potty underneath her bed and we were expected to empty it for her the next morning. Urgh.
It's even weirder to me now that I'm a mom and my bathroom door lock being broken is an absolute emergency. Really... "keeping company on the potty" is for when you are potty training. So much Freud here.
Ew, we *are* potty training right now and I can't wait for that to be over with!
I'm not so sure about this one. The bathroom one went on well past the age where it should have stopped, but by my late teens it was over. Never did the shower curtain thing, thank goodness. Big one for me was being absolutely fed up to my eyeballs with being lectured about why I couldn't have my birthday the way I wanted (I just wanted a pizza party at home with some friends and family? What the heck was bad about that?) so I went to my room and locked the door to cry and be alone while I was viciously pissed off and dealing with the intense fury. She picked the lock, physically pulled me out from under the bed and the lecture went on. Dang, that still makes me mad thinking about it.
Hello dear friends,
Those stories aren't simple, albeit infuriating, boundary violations. It's covert sexual abuse, and I'm so sorry you had to endure that. Covert sexual abuse is much harder to acknowledge because women abusers may couch their violence under the guise of "mothering" or "caretaking" or teaching you "how to be a woman."
Imagine if it were your father or other adult male who spied on you in the shower and forced you to see him unclothed. :sadno:
Please be aware that topics like this can be extremely triggering for our members. Our community guidelines provide this insight:
"Many of our members are survivors of abuse, and some find it extremely difficult to read detailed accounts of the emotional and physical abuse of others. Therefore, any gratuitous or excessively graphic descriptions of acts of violence or abuse which go beyond what is necessary to describe the situation you are in will be removed."
Reading through these excruciating - and yes, I agree with Leonor, these are covertly sexually abusive experiences, my heart just aches at what so many of us have endured with these behaviors from a trusted parent before we had the ability to protect ourselves. So, our boundaries were terribly violated and we had no agency over our own privacy even.
QuoteAt it's core, Sexual Coercion/Abuse is about an imbalance in power and control.
This is from our Out of the FOG article that focuses more on the adult intimate environment, but is applicable here because of the imbalance in power and control that is inherent in the parent/child relationship.
Moving into a discussion now that we are in adulthood - where we do have the ability to establish and keep healthy boundaries in place, or to learn to, I am wondering what are some of the areas that are hardest to maintain boundaries and how have you/do you recognize those areas and work through that?
For me, one of the most difficult areas to protect and nurture is in keeping time and space to care for my health and emotional wellbeing. I struggle with this every day. I have been working with myself to grow in this area for so long it is embarrassing to even admit and I STILL struggle. 😩
I even have trouble remembering to eat sometimes - to nourish myself. I have never one time failed to nourish another person in my care, but I have more times than I can tell you failed to nourish myself.
This is, for me, the ever continuing ripple effect of growing up in home where consistently boundaries were violated and needs were not met, and before I knew better, establishing my life as an adult in a way that positioned me to continue living that way.
I cannot change my childhood and revisiting traumatic crap over and again is not productive and can often dysregulate me for days. (this is me, this may not be true for others)
But, what I can do, my friends is take good care of myself. I can choose that every single morning. I have control over the way I allow this to frame the rest of my days and how I view myself.
Just some thoughts... now I am going to go eat some yummy, nutritious food. :hug:
I find it really hard to see where a boundary could be set, before I even consider whether I want to set it and feel strong enough to maintain it. What I don't want to do is set a boundary and then let it be breached.
Example: my mother insists on family time spent together once a year which entails the four FOO family members (2 parents, 2 middle-aged adult children) staying at her house for a couple of nights. The date is set in stone.
I hate these occasions. I live quite close by and my preferred method of contact with her is a short as possible (and as infrequently as I can get away with). I hugely prefer little and often to long and infrequent, though.
I started with a new therapist shortly before the latest one of these and was complaining how I hate having to stay over.
"Do you have to?" she asked.
"Well, yes."
"Why? You live close enough that you could go home overnight if you wish."
"Yes, but my sister has to stay overnight as she lives further. She would not like it if I went home any more than mother would."
"Why does that make you unable to go home?"
"Because mother likes us spending time as a family and has made it clear she expects us to stay."
"Doesn't mean you have to."
"It does."
"Why?"
"Because it is an objectively reasonable wish."
"Is it? And even if it is, why do you have to grant that wish?"
And so on...
Quote from: NarcKiddo on September 28, 2022, 09:25:53 AM
"Because it is an objectively reasonable wish."
This. PDmom quite explicitly taught me that if what someone wanted from me was "reasonable," then I HAD to comply.
My wishes (which might also have been perfectly reasonable) always came second... which really meant they didn't factor at all.
Teaching me to not have boundaries in this way is probably the worst boundary my mother crossed, because it informed everything else.
But in a less global sense, my list of worst offenses would be:
-parents growing pot at our home all throughout my childhood.
-mom forbidding me from shaving my legs and refusing to buy me a bra during puberty.
Thank you, Leonor and Bloomie. It never occurred to me that this was sexual abuse but yes, of course! It actually helped me to connect a couple of dots with something I'm dealing with now in my marriage.
It is a fine line between dwelling on the same old hurts, and receiving the support around those that really does promote healing. I'm sorry if my story was upsetting to anyone. I guess I never thought it was "that bad," like so many other things we endured and are now waking up to. Seeing your horrified responses helps me to stick with working with it, and Sunshine writing hers in the first place brought me to recognize myself. I hadn't thought about that particular aspect of my childhood and girlhood before even after two years in therapy. So I'm grateful for that. Step by step.
Reasonable request was something I was groomed to comply with as well.
My mom read my diary and then told me how hurt she was by it. I was writing my escape plan as a teen, at the time. We were living campground to campground. My part time job was buying the family groceries.
The boundary crossing with covert abuse started so early, it is hard to really identify the "worst". Physical abuse or threats of it. Calling me in at 11 yo to "judge" their fights at 3am. Overall, parentification is the big one that stands over them all. Needing to be the responsible adult in the room at too young of an age seems like the worst boundary of all.
Yeah sorry did not mean to trigger anyone. I hadn't really thought of it like that but once I took a step back and looked at what was written. Wow yeah. I t was also shocking that others experienced it as well. My husband took one of those Big 5 personality tests and he was 98percent agreeable so he views most of my stories from the other's perspective. Even HE said "that's weird". Yeah I see it now because of you guys. I see the toxic soup and certain flavors in the soup that are throughout.
I well remember the "pee" incident. Cut a long story short I'd taken Dad away for a trip for the weekend. We'd got stuck in traffic and he'd peed himself in the car. Long story....
Anyway so we get to the hotel (we had separate rooms) and he says "Oh but you'll have to help me in the shower and wash me".
Ewww NO!!!!!!!!!!! With Dad nothing in it but that just about sums him up for expecting everyone to do everything for him.
Another one - the time I was ill.
Had a chest infection, lost my voice etc. So Dad wanted daily updates. Had enough told him I'd speak to him in a few days I needed rest and sleep.
Next day 10am hes ringing waking me up. I ignored it. Something like 50 times he rang. Then by the evening facebook messages from brother. By 9pm they were things like "Stop being so selfish and ring Dad - hes worried about you".
His excuse after this was over - "I was worried about you". Yeh right I'm sure I was going to die and my wife whos a nurse would have let that happen !!!!!
That is a question that many of us many us us, and quite reasonably, will not want to respond to in this to in this forum. For those of us who feel safe enough to do so, it's good to see the support as usual.
Spring Butterfly wisely reminded us that subjects like this could be triggering.
Perhaps it would be useful to take a drink of water and a few breaths before deciding what we want to share.
As an adult: replacing bedroom doors with new doors that have glass so they can see what I do in my bedroom.
-As a teen: coming in the bathroom while I was on the toilet or showering.
-As an adult: talking to me while she's sitting on the toilet :stars:
-Changing her clothes with her bedroom door open. :stars: (even as a child I found this weird)
-Watching TV with bedroom door open and mumbling weird/angry stuff to herself at the TV (but of course it is intended to make me uncomfortable/upset)-sometimes sleeping with bedroom door open. I met two people in my life who do that and they were toxic. I find that letting everyone in the house see what's going on in your bedroom, especially at night is fucked up.
-Present times: cyberstalking, befriending my friends (and ex boyfriends) online just so she can have sources of supply in the future (I cut those friends out), befriending my brothers' ex girlfriends and their mothers. To this day, mother dearest talks to them on the phone. And more...
What I have learned about boundaries, thanks in part to this wonderful support community, is that a real boundary is fully within our control.
As children we didn't have the choices we have now. I'm not talking about situations where human rights have been stripped or one is physically overpowered. I'm talking about normal everyday life, our life in the FOG, our life interacting with people who attempt to cross boundaries.
In reality we have free will and choose. FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) is designed to take away our perception of having a choice. You have complete control.
A boundary is not a rule. A boundary is action we decide to take when our wishes and preferences are not honored. A real boundary is rock solid and cannot be crossed because we take the action we have stated we would take.
Before you scoff, I grew up with zero boundaries. I lived in fear of setting a boundary. My whole being was programmed to avoid conflict.
Real boundaries sound like
"if you want to continue on this topic I'll have to end this conversation"
"if you want to listen to the music that loud I'll be leaving to go for a walk"
"I'd rather not talk about it"
"I won't be staying over your house for our visit" (we did this multiple times with family, no they didn't like it, yes they created LOTS of FOG, we went home)
"we will meet you at the restaurant and will not be driving together this time"
"we will pay for our own meal or else we will decline the invitation"
and the list goes on and on.
There is no way someone cannot honor a real boundary because it is simply a statement of action we take and choices we make. I reached a point where I didn't care anymore about how much chaos and drama my statements created. That point came when I hit a wall so hard it nearly cost my life. I realized as I recovered it was my life or theirs and I was far enough into my life to start living my own life and ignore the FOG.
Please know I share this from the depths of my heart and soul. Please check the toolbox topic on boundaries and medium chill. Do not give in to Fear Obligation or Guilt. Choose to live your life. That is how we get Out of the FOG - we are no longer controlled by Fear Obligation Guilt.
Quote from: Spring Butterfly on October 11, 2022, 05:53:36 PM
"I won't be staying over your house for our visit" (we did this multiple times with family, no they didn't like it, yes they created LOTS of FOG, we went home)
My therapist has told me I can set this precise boundary and it is one I so far have not dared to set with my uNPD mother.
It's a weird one for me, because we also don't stay with my step children. They always offer, as a kindness, and my husband would always find an excuse. Eventually I told him we were starting to appear rude, as if their house is not good enough, and that is not the case at all. It is simply that we cannot share a bedroom or neither of us gets any sleep so the most practical is to use a hotel and have two rooms. Once he explained to them they were totally understanding. They don't ask us to stay any more, they just said the offer is always open and if we change our minds just let them know. They are normal people!
But I just know that all manner of FOG will be unleashed if I try not to stay over at my mother's house for the annual visit she demands (husband is never invited to that) and so far have not had the guts to set the boundary. She only lives half an hour away so it is perfectly reasonable for me not to stay the night.
Thank you for mentioning it - and it is interesting that your family made a fuss about that one.
Mnnn..That's a hard one. So many boundaries broken. One that comes to mind is MIL going into my suitcase. Opening the door to the guestroom without knocking. Looking into the room when we were sleeping at night..:I won't get started on my FOO.
QuoteBut I just know that all manner of FOG will be unleashed if I try not to stay over at my mother's house for the annual visit she demands (husband is never invited to that) and so far have not had the guts to set the boundary. She only lives half an hour away so it is perfectly reasonable for me not to stay the night.
Exactly - this is what FOG is designed to do, it's a no win situation. We choose to sacrifice ourself on the alter of their ego or we choose to have venom spewed on top of every hoover in the book. It's a tough choice we make every single time. Every time we choose we choose them or us.
Quote(husband is never invited to that)
this became unacceptable for both sets of family. If in-laws couldn't be nice to me, DH said they wouldn't see him. I had stopped going for years and we decided to unite. They were all too happy to have him without me and I was left alone. For my family DH and I agreed the moment uPDm or EnF crossed our stated wishes I would state the interaction was over as DH walked away. A few times what this looked like was just me walking away from them. My freeze response often leaves me speechless so I just walk away. It's good enough.
QuoteThank you for mentioning it - and it is interesting that your family made a fuss about that one.
:tongue2: fuss is putting is mildly
We had to take a hard look at things. Letting both sets of parents step between us nearly cost us our marriage countless times. We chose us.
Others who are stuck in their own wounding will heal in their own time if they choose. In the meantime, I am here to live my own life, not to live what others dictate to me.
Quote from: Spring Butterfly on October 11, 2022, 05:53:36 PM
What I have learned about boundaries, thanks in part to this wonderful support community, is that a real boundary is fully within our control.
As children we didn't have the choices we have now. I'm not talking about situations where human rights have been stripped or one is physically overpowered. I'm talking about normal everyday life, our life in the FOG, our life interacting with people who attempt to cross boundaries.
In reality we have free will and choose. FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) is designed to take away our perception of having a choice. You have complete control.
A boundary is not a rule. A boundary is action we decide to take when our wishes and preferences are not honored. A real boundary is rock solid and cannot be crossed because we take the action we have stated we would take.
Before you scoff, I grew up with zero boundaries. I lived in fear of setting a boundary. My whole being was programmed to avoid conflict.
Real boundaries sound like
"if you want to continue on this topic I'll have to end this conversation"
"if you want to listen to the music that loud I'll be leaving to go for a walk"
"I'd rather not talk about it"
"I won't be staying over your house for our visit" (we did this multiple times with family, no they didn't like it, yes they created LOTS of FOG, we went home)
"we will meet you at the restaurant and will not be driving together this time"
"we will pay for our own meal or else we will decline the invitation"
and the list goes on and on.
There is no way someone cannot honor a real boundary because it is simply a statement of action we take and choices we make. I reached a point where I didn't care anymore about how much chaos and drama my statements created. That point came when I hit a wall so hard it nearly cost my life. I realized as I recovered it was my life or theirs and I was far enough into my life to start living my own life and ignore the FOG.
Please know I share this from the depths of my heart and soul. Please check the toolbox topic on boundaries and medium chill. Do not give in to Fear Obligation or Guilt. Choose to live your life. That is how we get Out of the FOG - we are no longer controlled by Fear Obligation Guilt.
:yeahthat:
This is an amazing piece of text, thanks for sharing.
I never had any boundaries with my FOO so they walked all over me. Now I have boundaries with them and we keep falling out as they don't respect them.
Wow, it sounds like the bathroom boundary violations affected most of us. When I was a kid I wasn't allowed to ever lock the bathroom door. As a teen, I started locking it because I was at an age where I wanted privacy. Nmother claimed that I was locking the door because I was doing drugs in there and insisted that it always remain unlocked. Sometimes I'd be on the toilet and would hear the doorknob turning, her checking to make sure it was unlocked. If I did lock the door she'd pound on it and scream at me, demanding to know what I was "up to."
The other boundary violation that really affected me was my mother reading the diary I kept as a teenager. I had one of those diaries with a little lock on it, never realising how easy it was to pick that lock. One day she mentioned something that I had written in my diary so I suspected she was reading it. The next day I wrote a fake entry about a fake friend using a fake name. A few days later, she mentioned the friend by name, and I knew she had been reading the diary. After that I realised I had zero privacy in my life. There was nothing that I could hide from her. I was afraid to even keep things in my school locker because I knew she could call the school and have them search it.
When I got my first apartment I felt like I was in heaven. I was so poor and my apartment was a dump, but no one was going through my possessions. No one was watching me bathe. I had this tiny little studio apartment with filthy carpet and no working appliances and thought I was the luckiest woman on earth.
When I was younger, all the things I loved would go missing or would be deformed.
Like my accounts might be deleted out of nowhere. My art projects would be thrown away. Or my teddy bears would go missing or their eyes would be gouged out.
However, there was one instance where six years of diary entries went missing. They were all thrown away.
I found out my mother did all those things.
She would sign me up for things I didn't consent to as well.
Reading my diary as a teen. She claimed it "fell" open. It did not. She read through its entirety.
Run of the mill cyber stalking on social media. Occasionally, I'll get a flying monkey message from someone who needs to let me know that they can't stand the way I look happy on Facebook when I've treated my mother so badly..... I have to block these folks.
But, in the last few weeks, she also joined Strava. Strava is a social media site for athletes to log workouts and receive kudos from other athletes.....miles completed, routes where you've earned a personal record, etc. I'm a triathlete. I do Ironman races. Strava?? This is a very NICHE site. My mom is a 74 yr chain smoker who does not exercise. She visited her home town and a mutual friend who IS an athlete must have told her about it. Luckily, I locked that down long ago so she can't see anything I do. But, really?? Strava? :blink:
This post brings up alot for me, as my privacy was often violated during bathing... I also was not allowed to shut my door to my room, I was told I needed to be watched at all times. Hand written notes in my school years that I received (didn't write) were sifted through and used against me as "evidence" I was hanging out with the wrong crowd and totally taken out of context (like movie quotes she thought were real). I was thrown out of the house for miniscule things like this repeatedly while GC brother never was. She took great pleasure in discarding me to my dad. I felt emptier each time. They passed me back and forth in my teen years, because neither could be a parent. They made it abundantly clear that I was barely tolerated, not loved. I could not speak up for myself, they all were against me. It was difficult... I look back and realize how horrible it was and how strong I had to be to go through what I did. I think we all are and it's incredibly brave to share these things.
when child was young, I rarely got a sitter
however, one time husband was out of town & I needed a break/needed to get groceries, etc
so wouldn't you know that same day is when PD parent decides to stop by unannounced
according to sitter, PD parent banged on the door & windows, hollering "I want to see grandkid"
she wouldn't let up & sitter opened door & let her in
by the way, she never told me she came over when sitter was here
then years later, she said "I would never come over uninvited!"
she didn't know that I knew