Narcissistic abuse - a second opinion?

[musttryharder]

Maybe its the long term effects of abuse, but I have many moments of doubting my own thoughts and perspectives. I was wondering if you could take a look at the documentation I've collated over the last year, and tell me if you agree that it's narcissistic abuse, even if we can't diagnose NPD. At this point I'd probably question myself when adding 2+2 (still 4, right?). The list is copied from my other recent post

Comments to friends in front of me:

He never remembers anything
Let me show you this because he doesnt care
If it was someone who could sing well... (referring to my singing on stage that she encouraged and knew I'm insecure about)
He has a "unique/funny" laugh
He hates (food friends had just made for us) - not remotely true
I'm telling the story of a big achievement in sports (at friend's request) and she had to interject with the medical attention I needed at the finish line to burst my bubble. I'm not a boastful person, but I'm quite proud of that achievement.
(when discussing a show she was going to with a female friend) We'll have to bring lots of condoms, haha...
Last night - a friend asked me to join them and said "your wife just called you an a**hole"


Direct comments to me:

You complain too much
You're too negative
Your yard work is a waste of time
You're insane for working out
Why do you need heavier dumbbells? (Less that 10kg)
What do you want a cell phone for?
Generally defensive, hostile, argumentative over simple questions
"I think that...." reply is always "no, it's..." (for example "somethings burning" (i can smell it!) "no that's just pork cooking....")
A weird one - "you're not going to stab me with that" when I happen to be washing a knife

I just like to mess with you... in very small ways
- I feel like this was significant, like some kind of confession and a giant red flag


Actions:

Asking me to the theatre and then leaving me hanging at the counter - only paid for her (we always used the joint account credit card - I was lucky I had cash on me)
When laying new floor and my books go in boxes, the bookshelves get permanently repurposed for her odds and ends and my books are still in boxes
Leaving the car in a mess when I need it
There's more here, but I can't think of them at the moment...


General (and most common):

Greets the dog, but not me
No morning greeting (she wakes up long after me)
Leaves the house without saying anything
Gets jealous if I play with the dog, or tells me I'm somehow doing it wrong
Offers no support when my family members die or are seriously ill
Won't listen to me when I have problems
Interrupts, contradicts or ignores me when I speak - 4/5 times for that last 18+ months
Being difficult on the rare occasions I get to see my family (long distance), always speaks negatively about them (they're angels compared to hers)
Questions me if I need to buy something
Shares my personal business (knowing I'm a private person)
Makes important decisions without me

Threatened divorce because I "dont like to do things for her" right after driving 100miles in a snowstorm to take her to a medical appointment, but I really think that was because I accepted but wasn't happy about her unilateral decision making.

Threatened suicide because we "don't do anything together". I'll own that one. We don't anymore, but that's a result of the above. She stopped wanting to do the regular things we did before this all happened anyway.

The NDVH advocates convinced me to make the list, and I have to say it does help when I'm feeling crazy, but I still wonder if there's something I missed or if my perspective is wrong. A few of you have kindly agreed that her behavior is unhealthy in my other post. I just wondered if I had interpreted things correctly, because she's not an obvious narcissist in many ways - acts like a victim etc.

[Summer Sun]

Mustryharder, wow, I can feel your pain reading this list.  Rather than agree or disagree, all I can say is I have experienced many of the same behaviors: the invalidation of a complishments, the superiority, the unwarranted hostility, the subtle putdowns (which if challenged is met with, boy, you are so sensitive, you just can't take a joke) etc.

Are any of your own needs being met relationally? 

One of my FOO PD's has a victim perspective whenever a molehill can be portrayed as mountainous for attention purposes.  Slight slidebar from the usual supremacy position.

If DH greeted our three cats and ignored me, or did not say good morning, or did not support me as I do him in life changing situations, I would be hurt and questioning the relationship too.  Trust your intuition.  One of the last pieces of advice my T gave me.  I believe PD's manipulation and use control and devaluing tactics and processes that many of us start questioning our sanity and doubting ourselves.

Familiarizing ourselves with these behaviors and tactics helps to deepen our understanding, strengthen our internal defences and guide us in establishing boundaries or changing our own behaviors, reactions and taking back control of our lives.

Wishing you strength, support, wisdom and the love and peace you so deserves.

Summer Sun

[RavenLady]

I know how valuable it is to call abuse abuse. Especially when we've been profoundly invalidated, having someone tell us our perceptions are right can bring a fundamental shift inside us. A lot of things you listed seem to fit naturally in the category of narcissistic abuse, and with a couple caveats below I don't see why it wouldn't be called that, though I'm not an expert and context could make a difference for some of the things you list. For example, if some of the things were a reaction to something else. All in all, though, the undermining, excessive criticism, belittling and invalidation all look to me like pretty classic narcissistic abuse based on what I know so far. 

One question I would have is, is there any possibility some of these things could be resolved with open communication? I know I caught fleas from the PDs in my FOO and brought bad habits into relationships. Highly critical, sarcastic, impatient of feelings that I had not been allowed to have in my FOO, sometimes oblivious. I had to learn to ask for emotional support non-defensively; that was hard after feeling shamed in my FOO for asking for anything at all. I was ultimately grateful when partners pointed my dysfunctional behaviors out and compassionately suggested alternatives that would work better for them. I've tried to change as a result and my DH of ten years assures me my fleas aren't so bad now. Nevertheless, work in progress, here. I realize such conversations can go extremely poorly with pwNPD so I'm not suggesting you barge in especially if such convos have triggered abuse in the past. It's just a question in case some of the awfulness might be mitigated. Probably, if it can, she's not a PD.

My second question is -- and this is more a concept from outside of my PD education than so much what I see around here at Out of the FOG, but here it is anyway -- what is the power dynamic in the relationship? Because while people can do and say terrible things to each other, I personally tend to only consider it "abuse" (as opposed to, say, bad relationship habits) if there is actually a power imbalance. I guess the most obvious example could be a young child telling a parent she's a bad parent...not a great thing, but hardly abusive in the way it would be if the parent told the young child she was a bad child. The parent has power over the child that the child doesn't have over the parent. Two people who have exactly equal resources, power and status might not be able to "abuse" each other in this paradigm, no matter how ugly they get. The theory is that one can always walk away. Of course, in real life, narcissists tend to manipulate their victims into a position of vulnerability even when the relationship should be egalitarian, and walking away gets increasingly difficult as a result, and I don't mean to imply there can't be abuse in a marriage when it clearly happens, painfully and even fatally all the time. I hope you understand I'm not dismissing the possibility and even likelihood you have, in fact, been seriously narcissistically abused. It's just something in the mix of possibilities from my perspective as an outsider. She could hypothetically have narcissistic traits without successfully abusing you...not that that means she's okay or the relationship is, of course.

And that would be my overwhelming feeling after reading your list: this relationship is not okay. It sure sounds like she's got a problem. Withholding love, affection, support, kindness, all those little compassionate gestures that can soften difficult days...all that makes for misery. I'm sure you (and she) deserve better than living with the absence of love in your partnership and home, especially if it looks like this, which looks like narcissistic abuse to me.

Hope this helps in some way. Hang in there. It seems like you are on a solid path.

[Whiteheron]

I just wanted to jump in really quickly to tell you that a lot of what you listed is from the same playbook my stbx uses. I firmly believe (in my humble unprofessional opinion) that he is a delightful mix of BPD/NPD/PPD.

I believe your perspective is spot on. Have you looked at the traits for BPD?

I will expand on this later, I'm right in the middle of the Monday morning school rush.

[HeadAboveWater]

Hi, Musttryharder. This seems like a very difficult list of things to endure.

Speaking only from my own experience, I can tell you that it's hard to figure out what drives someone to be abusive. As my FOO was dysfunctional, I've found myself in abusive relationships with friends, significant others, and bosses in my adult life. Looking back, I can't know for sure which type of PD those folks were or if one or two were manipulative because they were in the throes of addiction. It's possible some were just abusive and not diagnosable at all.

The totality of your list paints a picture of someone who appears to be cutting you down and ignoring you, if not outright playing games. If you've contacted the Domestic Abuse Hotline, you're probably in a great deal of pain. Again, I'm sorry.

If I may gently probe, how would knowing if your partner has NPD help? Could it feel ok to observe the trends instead, such as whether things are improving, whether this person appears able to make a good-faith commitment to accommodating your needs, whether you feel emotionally safe? Perhaps that data would be more useful in your guiding choices.

Take care. We're here if you need us.

[musttryharder]

Mustryharder, wow, I can feel your pain reading this list.  Rather than agree or disagree, all I can say is I have experienced many of the same behaviors: the invalidation of a complishments, the superiority, the unwarranted hostility, the subtle putdowns (which if challenged is met with, boy, you are so sensitive, you just can't take a joke) etc.

Are any of your own needs being met relationally? 

First I wanted to thank all of you for some helpful and thought provoking answers. I really have felt like this is a sympathetic and nurturing place. I haven't used forums in a while, so my formatting might be rough as I reply...

Are any of my needs being met?  I actually had to look up a list of needs because I'm so out of touch with reality now. Belonging, affection and support are the "universal ones". I get none of those. She makes dinner every night - honestly, that's the best I can think of. The rest of the time I'm guarded when we're in the same space. I can only relax alone. We're essentially roommates, only I'd kick out a roommate who treated me like this, and I wouldn't feel guilty about being guarded and distant.

[musttryharder]

One question I would have is, is there any possibility some of these things could be resolved with open communication? ...It's just a question in case some of the awfulness might be mitigated. Probably, if it can, she's not a PD.

My second question is -- and this is more a concept from outside of my PD education than so much what I see around here at Out of the FOG, but here it is anyway -- what is the power dynamic in the relationship? Because while people can do and say terrible things to each other, I personally tend to only consider it "abuse" (as opposed to, say, bad relationship habits) if there is actually a power imbalance...

To answer your first question, I'd say we used to be quite good at open communication. Unfortunately, I did talk to her about some of the more common aspects over the last 2-3 years, such as ignoring me or interrupting me (before things got bad). She would get defensive but sometimes change for a week or so and return to the same behavior. We had discussed a big issue several times and the timing wasn't right for me, but she went ahead with a big decision affecting us both (which it turned out she had already made behind my back before announcing it). At that moment, there seemed little point in trying open communication if I was going to be the only participant. If I'm to be ignored or belittled for speaking, it seems almost self-destructive to keep trying.

Your second question is a good one, and helped me to put more parts of the puzzle together. Up until moving to a rural area a few years ago, we both worked full time, mortgage etc - very much equal. When she convinced me to move and give up my job so she could take early retirement in the countryside, the dynamic changed. I see that now. I work part time but we rely mostly on her income out here. I'm also from a different country, so it's harder for me to fit in. She's also older than me. When we were working in the city we had our jobs (she was a manager). Out here, she does the accounts - she holds most of the cards. I saw that as a potential issue at the time, but she assured me we'd have no problems...

I wouldn't be able to support myself here. I can't find jobs in my field here. If I leave, it will be to return to my home country where I can see my old friends and relatives much more often, but starting over entirely - a terrifying prospect, but one that is becoming more attractive.

[musttryharder]

I believe your perspective is spot on. Have you looked at the traits for BPD?

I will check on the BPD traits. Thanks.

[musttryharder]

The totality of your list paints a picture of someone who appears to be cutting you down and ignoring you, if not outright playing games. If you've contacted the Domestic Abuse Hotline, you're probably in a great deal of pain. Again, I'm sorry.

If I may gently probe, how would knowing if your partner has NPD help? Could it feel ok to observe the trends instead, such as whether things are improving, whether this person appears able to make a good-faith commitment to accommodating your needs, whether you feel emotionally safe? Perhaps that data would be more useful in your guiding choices.

You ask another good question. I have an analytical nature, and I suppose I'm looking for answers, or pieces of the puzzle. I want some kind of unequivocal proof that this is abuse - even better if it has a label. If I can get past that stage in my mind, I can formulate the best response (if abuse then leave). I'm essentially alone in this (in person at least), and I have a hard time trusting my gut with all the hoovering etc. I'm also incredibly disappointed in myself. In general I consider myself a good judge of character and I can't believe I didn't see it coming. To accept this is happening is to accept that I made a colossal mistake.

[coyote]

Musttry,
I agree it can be hard to determine some of the more subtle jabs as abusive or not. For me I decided to term anything said or done that I responded to as feeling belittled or demeaned as abuse. So I began to set firm boundaries against any and all abuse. I my boundaries were not being respected we would not be together today.

[RavenLady]

So, after your follow-up comments, the picture I'm getting from you looks pretty clear. You entered into what you thought was an equal partnership. Do not fault yourself for that. We are not supposed to have to enter marriage thinking our partner will probably someday go Mr. Hyde on us. That's not what anyone signs up for. Don't blame yourself. It wasn't your fault.

Then, you move away from your job and community and trust her to still be an equal partner although she now holds all or more of the cards. Instead, once she has the upper hand, Mr. Hyde comes out. Ugh. What a nightmare for you. You are more vulnerable because of your income, immigration status, and age. She can't be trusted with her increased power in the relationship, clearly.

Honestly, if I were in your shoes going through the gut-wrenching process you are, I'd like to think I wouldn't need to know why she became Mr. Hyde. The fact that she did when given the chance would be enough. I'd like to think I'd be out of there.

FWIW, I was raised by people who should not have been married, so I made it clear to my spouse (of 10 years) before we got hitched that if I ever felt I couldn't trust him anymore, I would walk. Period. Life is just too damn short to spend it suffering because someone is taking liberties with me. Because he's not PD, his general response to this has always been: Naturally. As well you should. And if he felt I was untrustworthy, I would expect no less from him. It's been a foundational thing for us. Trust.

So, again, I completely understand why you would want to know "for sure" that she has PD before you break up the partnership, but from where I sit, you don't need to go that far. She's mistreating you when you are in a relatively more vulnerable situation, she has violated your trust, and she shows no signs of reversing course and making amends. Surely that's not what you signed up for. She already broke your agreement, so to speak. In my book, you owe her no loyalty any more.

[musttryharder]

...I decided to term anything said or done that I responded to as feeling belittled or demeaned as abuse.

I've heard that once before. The first time, I wondered if I could be sure that I wasn't just overreacting. A few months later, I'm in a better position to believe it. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck...

[musttryharder]

So, after your follow-up comments, the picture I'm getting from you looks pretty clear. You entered into what you thought was an equal partnership. Do not fault yourself for that. We are not supposed to have to enter marriage thinking our partner will probably someday go Mr. Hyde on us. That's not what anyone signs up for. Don't blame yourself. It wasn't your fault.

... In my book, you owe her no loyalty any more.

Thank you for another thoughtful reply! It is hard out here. As much as I love the scenery, when I'm not out enjoying it I feel utterly alone. I had my spouse to keep me company and understand me, or so I thought. Now I live in a small town where I have very little in common with the locals, and I can't afford to spend much time in bars or restaurants. I feel more like Papillon than Thoreau.

You're right, I suppose I shouldn't need to know why. I feel betrayed. I trusted her with my life, basically. I helped her through some very tough times, and when it's my turn I get nothing - less than nothing, because she was turning against me.

She seems so confused (or at least annoyed) as to why I've detached, but I can't shut out the experiences that have changed the way I see her. People tell me they envy my life because I live somewhere pretty, but I see now that location, job and relationships are all just parts of the equation, and of course they don't know me or my life.

I don't know how a divorce works or if it's possible to handle that from my home country, and I'm unsure if I can go home and still get a decent job after this career break, but I'm going to do my best to find out. I'm the only person who, in the end, can get me out of this situation.

Again, thank you for your thoughtful replies.