Trying to get blood from a stone

[countrygirl]

Hi,

It is so great to have this site, as I try to deal with the PDs in my life.  Two down, and maybe two to go...

The one who might go is a friend I like in many ways, but she has so little patience and so little empathy.   I am engaged in a battle with my insurance co., who is denying treatment for a longtime condition which they have covered for many years.  I spent many hours on the phone today, and was lied to.  One of the supervisors with whom I spoke admitted that the authorization dept. had lied, in writing, to my doctor.  Then I was told another lie!   I am still working on it, but it's really a battle, as it is for so many of us. 

Well, I just told my friend about this today, and she said I'd already told her one little snippet of it  which I did repeat today.  Then she told me "not to dwell on it."  I replied that I just found out a lot today, and that I must call my doctor's office again tomorrow, plus must talk to one of the supervisors again.  I am not dwelling on it; I am in the midst of it.   

I strongly felt that she just wanted me to shut up about it.  If you asked her, this woman would say I was her best friend...

What should I say to her?  Any ideas?

[RavenLady]

Hi countrygirl. I'll be interested in what other, probably friendlier, people on this site suggest. For me, I would probably drift away from her as a friend. Life is already too hard without the people we choose for our inner circle discounting and minimizing that hardship.

I guess if she was a really good friend and brought lots of joy into my life and/or we had really valuable histories together, I might try raising the issue with her. Though if I suspected she was a PD, not so much.

Then again, after being disabled and having the life nearly crushed out of me by the weight of that challenge and the kinds of experiences you're enduring, I seem to have no tolerance left for people who can't appreciate what real struggle looks like and dwell in kindness when they encounter it. No thank you. Again, life is too short.

[countrygirl]

Hi RavenLady,

I am sorry that you too have been disabled and have nearly had the life crushed out of you.   That is how I have felt so many times.  And I agree with all that you say here.  In fact, your phrase "dwell in kindness" brought tears to my eyes.  It reminds me of a phrase a lovely Quaker friend would use:  "I hold you in the light."  I think we all want our friends and family to dwell in kindness and to hold us in the light.  That's really what so many people are expressing on this blog about those they know, whether family, friends or colleagues. 

In this particular friendship, I have had good times with this woman, but unfortunately her lack of empathy often rears its ugly head,  For now, I will be withdrawing, because I can't deal with my physical issues plus battling with my insurance company and then being spoken to as I was yesterday.   I hasten to say that I was NOT taking up a great deal of her time, and she had called me.  But when I described the latest with the insurance company, she angrily said,  "And people DIE because their insurance doesn't give them adequate coverage!"  Does she think I don't know this?  In fact, I recently told her about an infamous case with my insurance co., where they would't provide coverage for a sixteen year old girl and the girl died.  Of course I realize that I probably won't die if coverage is denied, but my life will be more difficult if it is denied.  When you think about it, anytime a person says they are having a problem, you could always answer by saying, "Put this in perspective:  At least you're still alive." 

And speaking of life, I've read several of your posts in other threads, RavenLady, and you come across as a strong woman.  Thank you for replying to my post.  It means a lot.  It helped to hear what your response would be to trying to get blood from a stone.  Since I was raised in the country, I have heard a whimsical version of that cliche:  Trying to get blood from a turnip.   I am going to picture this friend as a big turnip when I'm in a good mood and as a big stone in my path when I'm feeling less charitable. 

[clara]

If this friend comes across as lacking in empathy, and she behaves as if she has little empathy, then I think it's safe to say she lacks empathy!  People like that I put into the "acquaintance" category and they're people I can enjoy being around, I just don't delude myself into thinking they'll ever be anything more than acquaintances, even if they try to claim to be more.  PDs, as we all know (!), will be the person who declares to the world what a great friend they are when in reality their friendships are nothing but transactions.

People with dismissive attitudes can be hard nuts to crack, PD or no PD.  It's probably a habit if they're not a PD--they feel they have the right to determine what is and isn't important.  How they came to be that way I suppose can be traced to childhood, but that's an issue they need to deal with and not inflict on others.  I know I certainly avoid people like that because that attitude seems so hard-wired into their psyche.  They don't regard what they're doing as a problem since they've taken on the mantle of superiority.  They may be okay for casual friendships but they can't honestly be called a friend if they won't even listen to you and try to have some understanding of where you're coming from!

[VeryUncertain]

I grew up in a PD family, and I find that I sometimes have a difficult time being supportive.  It's not that I don't empathize it's that when I was raised, my own complaints were always shut down hard, and others in my FOO would exaggerate and complain to me in order to activate my empathy and try and get stuff out of me, so I'm gun shy of even something as simple as responding with "wow, that's terrible" because I would get beaten down for not doing something.  When I hear a sad story I'm triggered into being leery.  I'm working on it.

So perhaps your friend is just like me?  No experience with receiving empathy and doesn't know how to express it properly. I've had this conversation with my daughter.  I get frustrated and ask "so what do you expect me to do about it." She looks surprised and says "nothing, just listen, I'm venting." I feel sheepish.

[Spygirl]

Veryuncertain,

I also have a PD mom, and was raised in the same manner. I had to caretake and was not allowed to be emotional. I was the oldest child. A huge wall around my heart a have always wanted to climb over with someone i loved, but stopped because i picked the same type of PD people to give my heart too.

I also work on it. Your friend may not have a lack of empathy, but is also handicapped
By her own difficulties. Many of us are going through difficult journeys. Some of us are more in the fog than others. Perhaps there are more empathetic friends for you, or there is the strength of this person's shield, the" tough it out" thought process. It is another way to survive hardship, though not the healthiest.
I am sure you are very scared and its a difficult time, very scary. I do hope it gets better for you soon.

[countrygirl]

Thank you Clara, Very Uncertain and Spygirl!

Clara, that phrase, "mantle of superiority" really applies to some people, doesn't it?  It so aptly describes what I find hard to take with this friend.   As always, you know how to describe situations so well.

Very Uncertain,  I am sorry that your treatment in childhood resulting in your being leery, but it's certainly understandable, and it's good that you recognize the source and that you're working on being less leery.  I certainly have many glaring flaws which I can trace to my family, and I'm still very much a work in progress.  I would say that the difference between you and my friend might be that she is not working on changing, because she sees no need to change.  To use Clara's phrase, she really has a "mantle of superiority."  I know things about her childhood which might explain why she is this way, but the important thing in terms of our friendship is that she doesn't see a need to change.  If you're already perfect, why change?  You might answer because relationships don't work out, but when her relationships don't work out, she just accepts it.

And Spygirl,  As you say, like, Very Uncertain, you too are still working on changing.  Those of us with PD parents have really had the gift that just won't stop giving, haven't we?   I also have a history, big surprise, of relationships with PDs.  Fortunately, I have also managed to have relationships with non-PDs.  For many years, and with different people, I tried and tried and tried with PDs, until I am worn out.   I really do care about this friend, and sometimes things go well and I am encouraged, but then there's always something bad, and here I am again, writing about it.  Unlike you and Very Uncertain, this woman is simply not self aware.  I have tried, many times, talking to her about her behavior, but she never changes.  I honestly don't know whether this friendship will survive; at this point, I can see it going either way.

It's hard to be a human, isn't it?  Sometimes I think I would have had an easier life if I'd been raised at the Daisy Hill Puppy Farm, know what I mean?   But I do keep trying.  All of us here do.   

[Spygirl]

Countrygirl,


I actually have to thank my PD spouse for my seeing my own dysfunction. My place in the dance so to speak. If I had not had the nervous breakdown and gone to a therapist I wouldn't have dug deep enough into this journey to figure out what my place was in it and how to start changing that.

I completely agree with so many people not being Self aware.  I look back at some of the ways I used to behave and handle things and honestly I'm ashamed of it.
I'd like to think I've turned that ship around a lot.

I have one friend I've known for 12 years who's absolutely a narcissist. In her case it's easy to disengage myself  And operate boundaries with her. I noticed as she Has Become older she's also much more self aware and She is certainly made efforts on her own to be more kind and Empathetic to other people. Maybe it is something the gets easier to do with age.
I am also much more forgiving than I ever used to be. I also think about" am I just complaining and whining ?"or is this actually something I need to discuss with anyone?
I try not to unload my negativity verbally  or in my actions on other people now, and try to change the way I look at things. it's really helped me a lot and actually lowered my own stress level and and unhappiness.

[countrygirl]

Hi Spygirl,

You have worked really hard, and I believe that PDs can also change, but in my experience, so many of them don't want to, especially  are Ns.  The one I've written about here is a very smart person, who appreciates literature and films.  Many great works of art have to do with people becoming self aware and maturing, but she never seems to identify with the protagonists.   She had a very difficult childhood, with an abusive father, and she doesn't want to contemplate that and its effect upon her.  It seems that this attitude of denial extends to most areas of her life.  Also, she is totally opposed to therapy, probably because she does not want to know the effects of her father's abuse on her.  It is sad, really, and I do have a lot of sympathy for her.  But I also had a difficult childhood, and yet I always try to treat others well, not that I'm without my flaws, certainly!

Most people I know treat other people well, but I have had these PD friends too, and I am so worn out from my physical issues and for other reasons that I just don't have the energy for PDs now.  They are a lot of work! 

[treesgrowslowly]

Its heartbreaking to see all this energy going into trying to make friendships with self-absorbed people "work".

Your initial post really spoke to me. I had a friend I was having fun with but her lack of empathy revealed itself the more comfortable she got with me. There I was, putting time and attention into the friendship with her and all it did was make her feel more entitled to crap on me, insult me, dismiss me and say things like your friend says to you about your insurance stress.

Everytime she told me her stress I validated and listened and everytime I told her my stress she insulted and dismissed. I think the golden stage lasted about 3 months with her and them she became mean and selfish around me. Im SO over this dance with PDs.

Take good care of yourself country girl. You deserve all the support. I don't know if that friend deserves you.

[Spygirl]

Countrygirl,

Sounds like youre making a good choice in your situation. You can only tolerate so much before  it becomes too much.

I do hope your medical issues show some improvement this year, so you can be more at ease with that area of your life. 

[countrygirl]

Hi treesgrowslowly and Spygirl!

treesgrowslowly, your description of how supportive you are to your friend, who then turns around and dismisses your concerns, really resonated for me.  I mentioned I have two remaining PD friends, and your description of your friend aptly describes my "second" PD friend.  (Not the one I first described here, although she can be dismissive too!)  For example, regarding my insurance woes, this second friend was really and quite obviously bummed out when I said I could afford treatment myself, if my insurance company doesn't cover it. (I can afford it, but I don't WANT to pay for it, because the co. is trying to weasel out of paying and I pay my premiums.)  She was SO upset to hear this!  She kept trying to say that it wouldn't be possible, even saying that it wouldn't be "ethically" correct!

Over and over, for many days,  I said to her, "What do you think people do who don't have insurance?"  Finally, I said, "You know I told X what you said about this, and he was really surprised by your response!  He didn't have insurance when he was younger, so had to pay for treatment himself."  Of course she couldn't stand it that I had told someone else about her response, because she KNEW how it sounded.  But, not missing a beat, she then said,  "I just hope it doesn't become too expensive."  In fact, she said that several times, and in such a tone that you knew she was trying to make me worry about THAT! And I am sure she wishes that it DOES become too expensive.  I reminded her that I am pretty much confined to the house at this point but--once again--trying to get her to feel empathy is like trying to get blood from a stone--as it is with the other PD friend.

Yes, all the time and energy we have all put into trying to make PD relationships work is really heartbreaking.  By the way, after saying what she did to me, this friend expected me to hear all about her day-to-day issues people at the stable where she keeps a horse.  I hear this every day, and provide support every day.  Meanwhile, she doesn't want me to get treatment so that I can leave the house!

I can also relate to what you say about your how your putting more attention and time with your PD friend caused her to feel more entitled and to treat you worse.  I have found that this is a real pattern with these people.  And if you're ever with them when they meet new people, you see how charming they can be, and you see them treating strangers better than they treat you.  The conclusion?  It's better to be a stranger to them once again!

Hi Spygirl,  Thanks for your best wishes regarding my physical issues!   I wish you all the best in all areas of your life too!

[StayWithMe]

People with dismissive attitudes can be hard nuts to crack, PD or no PD.

Not to mention, a lot of people get off on witholding something that you want ..... usually empathy. 

What I like is freezing this people out of my inner circle and watching them get upset --in little ways-- when they realise that's what's happening.

[countrygirl]

StayWithMe,

I had to laugh when I read about how you like to freeze people out of your inner circle and watch them get upset.   Really, I have allowed myself to suffer for so many years with my various PD friends (another friend calls them my "psychosociables") that the idea of PDs getting upset when they are frozen out made me feel good. 

I needed to read this, because I'm sitting here--yet again--feeling bad because I haven't heard from one of them.  Yesterday she told me she was coming into my neighborhood to pick up a prescription so, foolishly, I thought she might suggest picking up some soup or sandwiches and joining me for lunch.  But, as you so rightly observed, a lot of these people probably do get off on withholding.   I am laid up at the moment and would really have appreciated the company!   Another friend also subscribes to the theory of them getting off by withholding; she says they "get their jollies," an old-fashioned phrase which nicely sums up the situation.   

Regarding the freezing out, I have found that PDs are generally astounded when this happens, and act as if YOU are treating THEM badly.  But of course they would think this, because they are perfect...

At any rate, your post was just the pick-me-up I needed to read.

[StayWithMe]

One woman said to me:  "Have you REALLY been THAT busy?"

Outed.

Anyone else have any examples?