From NC to legal proceedings...

[Generic_Username]

I'm UK based - I think that makes a difference in this case.

I went NC with my uNPDmother and En-father less than a year ago. I had been grey rocking fairly successfully for around 2 years - they noticed something had changed but didn't know what. I made a deal with myself that I wouldn't bring it up, but if they asked I wouldn't lie. So when she asked what had happened, I told her that since having my own children I realised that my upbringing wasn't healthy. And that this meant that I would not leave my children with them unsupervised. Ever.

This prompted tears and literal running away from my Mother so I couldn't continue the conversation. We left (from their house) and when I got home I finished the conversation in the form of a letter, asking for a break.

A few weeks went by and we got a letter from a solicitor asking for mediation. And another, and another. We declined all of them. The mediation aim was to see my children, not reconcile or even acknowledge my POV. They threatened court several times, with deadlines or deals of "if you call, we won't take you to court". Again we ignored it all.

Now we find ourselves with court papers, and a date, to go to family court to potentially arrange visitation rights - again, no expression of wanting a relationship with me, just the children. They have previously dismissed all of my descriptions of my childhood experiences and in the court letter have outright lied about some things - which I can't prove.

Also, because it's family court, we will at some point be assessed by Social Services (CPS). In terms of what we've told the children (all under 10), they have asked where grandparents are, so I've explained that they haven't been using kind words with us so we're having some space. We've never bad-mouthed them, we've only had that one conversation with them.

We are in a stable, committed relationship. We are both the biological parents of our children (as in no step-parents). We are both agreed in the decision for NC. But they are still able to pursue this and potentially cost us literal thousands of pounds. Make it make sense.

[M0009803]

Am very sorry you are going through this.

Dysfunctional individuals have a tendency to respond like this when faced with their abusive past.

There are no "grandparents rights" in the UK.   They absolutely do not have any automatic right to see their grandchildren.

These sorts of court cases are very similar to SLAPPs in the UK.  They are designed to bully you into submission via making it expensive for you to fight the court case.

What you can do in the UK is ask the court for costs given that their lawsuit is not based on credible evidence (harrasment really).

Definitely worth going through a good solicitor for this.

[Generic_Username]

Oh wow, I just looked up SLAPPs and that's exactly what it is! 

We've already sought legal advice and have a solicitor who has been through this exact scenario before. It seems that from all the advice we've heard that we will end up in court, but (hopefully) they don't rule in the grandparents favour. A very expensive, stressful and vindictive way to try to get their own way.

We've asked about costs, as it is family law it is highly unlikely we'll be able to reclaim any costs back. We will try still try, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Rebel13]

Good luck!  Just replied to your introductory post saying similar things about lack of grandparent rights, but I didn't realize you are in the UK.

Even if you don't recover any costs, asking for them is still a good idea I think.  At least in the US, the judgment would be on record that they owed that money, and that might discourage them from future actions.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Family court is supposed to be for the good of the children involved. So, your parents are making the case that the best thing for your children is to force a lot of stress and expense on their family, to put the children as the prize of this fight, and to use the courts to completely intrude in their lives against the judgment of the parents. Who are married and in agreement on this. And this is of course their own child who wants their kids kept far away. If the grandparents win, the children will be stuck in the middle of this fight for the rest of their childhoods. Good freaking luck with that, Gramps and Gran.

I don't mean to minimize the stress. I've had waking nightmares about my kids' grandparents trying similar. But that's so ludicrous and entitled that they're going that route, which should not escape the judge's notice. It's especially telling that they don't care at all about fixing your relationship, just getting at your kids.

[NarcKiddo]

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/what-rights-do-grandparents-have-to-see-their-grandchildren/#:~:text=Do%20grandparents%20have%20a%20right,or%20via%20a%20court%20order.

Here's some info about the rights of grandparents in England & Wales.

I am rather alarmed to note that the welfare of the child is not the paramount consideration, although the court would take seriously any suggestion that visitation rights would be unduly disruptive to the child's life. I don't know if that is an aspect you could pursue.

I would have thought you would be able to insist that no access is unsupervised.

People with PDs seem to love running to the lawyers. My mother has often threatened people with that as a way to get them to back down. I am sorry your parents seem to be taking this further than just a threat.

[Rose1]

I wonder about this - I'm not in the UK so can't comment on law but in my experience my pd in-laws were very concerned about image. Pdmil would actually stop some of her stuff if it became obvious she may not look good

Therefore I wonder if some sort of communication to them that in court you will not hold back, that your reasons will be about their abusive upbringing, that you will demand parenting classes and anger management classes and supervised visitation plus costs. And that you will not hold back in fighting for your kids safety. You might want to throw in payments to you for therapy if you think it will fly.

My exbpdh once threatened to go to court for custody after ignoring my D's for years. I made it very plain that I would air the family dirty laundry if he did and that I know what it is. He knew that too. Never heard about it again. If he had told pdmil she would have demanded he drop it because I was going to bring out his mother's possible pd etc. Always a winner in a desperate situation.

I'm basically saying fight back hard and do it before the court case. Those who bring charges can drop them.

[moglow]

To completely overlook and outright deny their treatment of you while thinking they have rights to your children? Make that make sense indeed. How did they think mediation would work? 

That's not how it works. You don't get to my children, knowing how I was treated and no assurances my children wouldn't be treated the same. I'm not exposing them to that. As soon as his daughter was born my older brother asked that she never be left alone with mommie dearest - with good reason. Mine wasn't/isn't interested but we stuck to that. No reason to go there. 

But yeah, no indication they want to actually address your relationship, just bypassing you in favor of your children. 

We're here with you.

[Generic_Username]

Thank you everyone. It's so refreshing to be able to write about this and not have to give further detail to help people understand.

The irony is that in my initial letter I only asked for space, I think I even explicitly said this wasn't a permanent thing, I just needed time. They then reference this in the letter - (not direct quote) "you asked for space, we didn't hear from you for a month and we're not happy about it" 

We've got our first meeting with our solicitor next week where we can put together a case to deny the application. But she's already said it's unlikely to be dismissed, basically because the judge the application is put in front of won't have any more to do with the case so it's easier for them to just wave it through. Don't you love bureaucracy?

We've resigned ourselves that we're going to have to battle this the whole way - and it will be a battle! I'm going to let them have it, because why hold back?

[NarcKiddo]

We've resigned ourselves that we're going to have to battle this the whole way - and it will be a battle! I'm going to let them have it, because why hold back?

Good for you. I actually wonder if this might work in your favour. If you have enough evidence to make them look really bad in public (even if not bad enough to restrict access to grandchildren) they might decide to back off rather than be publicly shamed. In my experience, appearance is everything for narcs and people must think them marvellous. If you have enough mud to fling they might not like that. Of course they might just huff and puff and deny everything but mud-flinging in UK court is pretty serious stuff. I know family court is not fully public, but they will want to impress the judge and their lawyers. I'm guessing there will have to be disclosure of stuff before the hearing (though I have no experience of the family courts so could be wrong). So my gut feeling (your solicitor will obviously be the best person to advise) would be to throw plenty at it early doors. With maybe a hint of "and we have even worse to reveal if you push us, so how about we all go away quietly now?". Not sure how that could work for you but that is probably the tactics I would try to use in your position.

Bear in mind that solicitors in family cases will usually try to mediate and defuse the situation. Which normally makes sense but not when dealing with a narc. So your first job is going to be to get your solicitor to understand just how awful these people are so she can act effectively for you. This may mean having to go over a lot of painful history to explain to her just why you don't want your children to have unsupervised/any access visits.

Wishing you the very best of luck.

[Call Me Cordelia]

They are going to court proceedings after a MONTH's break?  How often had they seen your children previously? I mean holy cow, if things were a rocky between you before such that you called a timeout in the relationship, this is a guaranteed way to make things permanently so. I pray the judge sees that, even if it's no skin off his nose to let the case through.

That said, I have been in an eerily similar scenario when I went NC. We never actually had to go to court though, praise God. I called my parents and said I needed a break because I was in the middle of a health crisis and just couldn't handle their drama at the moment and I would call when I was ready. Within a week I was getting repeated phone calls, nasty letters, multiple letters in one day, packages, flying monkey attacks calling me mentally unstable and worse. For months.

It was meant to be temporary. Certainly my intention had been for a shorter break than we were at, but how in the world was I going to back to chatty phone calls and holiday visits at this point? After several months of ignoring all this it came to my attention that my father was attempting to see my kids without my knowledge or consent, I have no doubt to gather "evidence" against me that I was an unfit mother and weaponize the courts against me. At this point he had not seen my children for over half a year, and previously to that exceedingly seldom by his own choice. He had zero evidence my children were being abused so he needed that access. This is when I lawyered up. I sent a cease and desist to my parents and copies to the people they had tried to use as accomplices in the scheme to gain access to my children. I was exceedingly brief: this is harassment, this is illegal, do not contact my family or we will take you to court.

Where we live, involving CPS against a family is completely without consequences for the person who calls. They pay for nothing, have no record against them if the call is determined to be unfounded. If we had sued them, they would have had to defend themselves, pay their own fees, and possibly deal with the personal and professional consequences of having a criminal record. Basically, I was prepared to do what you are doing and let them absolutely have it.

In my case that was enough. We've had blessed silence for six years. I think Rose1's perspective is astute. I don't know the depths of your parents' disconnection from reality (obviously pretty deep) but most narcissists have high limits in how much humiliation they are willing to undergo to get their way. If the court case hurts them more than the absence of your children, they very well may drop it. Would your parents have access to the case you put forward to deny the application? That would be a great "preview" for them. And their lawyer, for that matter. Of course your solicitor would best advise here. Best of luck to you. Even if you do have to fight this out, I'm convinced your parents have very little hope of winning.

[Generic_Username]

How often had they seen your children previously? I mean holy cow, if things were a rocky between you before such that you called a timeout in the relationship, this is a guaranteed way to make things permanently so.

We'd been weaning down on visits, so what used to be maybe weekly had reduced to less than monthly and definitely shorter visits as well. And the second point hits the nail on the head - by threatening court at any point in this they sealed their own fate. How can I realistically want to see them at all after knowing that they're willing to go to these lengths? In what world does this look good for them?

Interestingly, my sibling (who also has children) has had 2 visits over the past 6 months. And at both of those visits uNPDmother just complained about me! Way to alienate your remaining children!

If you have enough evidence to make them look really bad in public (even if not bad enough to restrict access to grandchildren) they might decide to back off rather than be publicly shamed. In my experience, appearance is everything for narcs and people must think them marvellous.

I totally agree and recognise this. They both have 'upstanding' jobs and love to think they're pillars of community. Unfortunately I changed my number during this period because I didn't want any triggers/phonecalls/messages and because of this I can't get any of my previous whatsapps (it's tied to the number, not the phone) which is disappointing but not the end of the world. My therapist will make a statement for me and is happy to release my notes as long as I'm ok with it. And my SIL is desperate to be a character witness, she's livid!

Very helpfully - without being specific - there was an incident at uNPDmother's work. Instead of answering it, she left. I mentioned this to the solicitor and she said we're within our rights to bring it up. This is most definitely a chance to show them up in a public setting and I think it'll drive them mad.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Now part of me just wants to watch.  I'm even more confident you have got this.

[NarcKiddo]

 

[Generic_Username]

I didn't know whether to post here or in a new thread but anyway...

We've had the first meeting with our solicitor and she has been really helpful and positive, and more importantly realistic. There is still a very real chance that the application can be accepted and we do have to go through the courts. But importantly, because of the specifics of my argument, we can say this will be too disruptive for the children and shouldn't go any further. We can hope.

I've received the statements from my parents and reading them made me feel sick. They're full of how "out of the blue" this is, that they don't understand what's happened to stop a "usually loving and happy relationship with the grandkids" (not direct quotes).

There's been acknowledgement of "difficulties" when I was young, and that they worked hard for food/clothes/housing etc etc. Because of course, the bare minimum should be praised. No mention of my emotional or psychological wellbeing. And conveniently glossed over the issue at her previous work...

I didn't expect it to be easy, but I feel so defeated. This is going to go on for so long, and just be mudslinging back and forth with no end in sight. I just want to feel happy and safe with my kids, and right now I don't 

[moglow]

Going to court doesn't mean anything will come of it. Their "out of the blue" beliefs just show their denial. I'm thinking hang tight with, my first responsibility is protecting my children. I don't and haven't had a good relationship with my parents because of their treatment/abuse/neglect, and I don't want my children subjected to that.

I suspect that like mine whatever happened when you were growing up was a long time ago - thing is, it never really stopped. The relationship never improved. You don't want your children in the middle of that and it's not unreasonable. I'm pretty sure the parents don't want statements to/in court about how you were treated, but they need to realize that can easily happen. Plus glaring right there is their insistence on your children, not their own/you. To me that speaks mouthfuls.

At the end of the day, No still means No and you are the parent deciding what's best for your children.

[square]

The "out of the blue" nonsense can be used as further evidence that communication with them is ignored, and that they are not suitable to supervise your children, which would require the ability to unrerstand communicated needs from the children (hungry, tired, etc.).

[M0009803]

In

I didn't know whether to post here or in a new thread but anyway...

We've had the first meeting with our solicitor and she has been really helpful and positive, and more importantly realistic. There is still a very real chance that the application can be accepted and we do have to go through the courts. But importantly, because of the specifics of my argument, we can say this will be too disruptive for the children and shouldn't go any further. We can hope.

I've received the statements from my parents and reading them made me feel sick. They're full of how "out of the blue" this is, that they don't understand what's happened to stop a "usually loving and happy relationship with the grandkids" (not direct quotes).

There's been acknowledgement of "difficulties" when I was young, and that they worked hard for food/clothes/housing etc etc. Because of course, the bare minimum should be praised. No mention of my emotional or psychological wellbeing. And conveniently glossed over the issue at her previous work...

I didn't expect it to be easy, but I feel so defeated. This is going to go on for so long, and just be mudslinging back and forth with no end in sight. I just want to feel happy and safe with my kids, and right now I don't 

It can be infuriating when they try to downplay their behavior (gaslighting) to outside observers.

The solicitor can help a lot here by drafting your responses to the court.

When I went through my own issues with my mother regarding my fathers inheritance, I used the lawyer as a buffer for communication (this was advise I received on here)

It worked well because I was able to explain in great detail to the lawyer (the dysfunction, abuse, and my concerns), while the lawyer took that all in and drafted a formal communication to my mother in a more concise format.

Its very difficult at the beginning to stay emotionally detached (when faced with their gaslighting), so my general advise in this situation would be to try to use the lawyer as a conduit as much as you can.

[Call Me Cordelia]

If it really were out of the blue and you were previously an oh so happy family, a reasonable person would try to work things out with you, try to see your point of view, figure out their role in the problem and fix that.

Their statements simply don't line up with, "Well, I guess the only thing to do is try to get the courts to give me my way."

[Rebel13]

There's been acknowledgement of "difficulties" when I was young, and that they worked hard for food/clothes/housing etc etc. Because of course, the bare minimum should be praised. No mention of my emotional or psychological wellbeing.

I watched a Youtube video with Lindsay Gibson yesterday where she mentions exactly this, and especially that a generation or two ago (like, my grandparents, and I'm in my 50s) the bare minimum was considered good enough. Clearly some people still believe this -- my parents, for example, even while I think they know that their parents' parenting was inadequate.

I hope you can take REALLY good care of yourself while all this is happening, work on stress management or whatever other activities bring you peace and calm. Because yes, it could go on, and yes, you don't have the option of ignoring it or separating yourself from it, and I can imagine that having to go over and over this stuff is really horrible. Best wishes and good luck to you.