I can't figure out if my wife is an abuser or the victim of previous abuse

[Venetir]

Hi everybody. My friend turned me onto this website and I've purused numerous articles. It has been enlightening, but I'm still feeling lost. I keep doubting myself and I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm not looking for judgment for or against my wife, but instead suggestions of how I can get to the truth of the matter.

My wife and I have been together for ten years. We have no children, just pets. We're both children of abusive, narcissistic parents and I suspect that's part of what drew us together. I've since had a ton of therapy for complex PTSD and, with a much clearer mind, I can look back and see that my wife originally treated me like my father. She was quick to anger, was frequently upset with me because I failed to meet desires or expectations that she never asked me for, sabotaged attempts at communication by deflecting and repeatedly talking over me, shifted blame from herself to me and, on the rare occasion she had to admit she was at fault, did so in a way that was so rude and condescending as to seemingly punish me for not being wrong. I look back and see that I dealt with her treatment because I felt I didn't deserve better. Thanks for the low self esteem, dad! The person I am today would have left her. Despite loving her, if I could have a magic wish to forget all this and start over without meeting her, I'd take it.

Despite being afraid of how she'd explode if I pushed her too hard or brought up the wrong things, I pushed for better treatment but there were always the topics I couldn't bring up, like how we always had to share blame for her actions. If I messed up, it was my fault and I fixed it. If she messed up, it had to be our fault and we fixed it together. She was willing to see a marriage counselor but I had to deal with seemingly incessant complaining about how the sessions resolved around her. Of course they did, her behavior was most of the problem, but I couldn't say that! It had to be both of us, always, and if it wasn't, the counselor was just biased. Our couples counseling focused on her childhood abuse as she'd never dealt with it. I had been seeing a counselor for mine off and on for years, so I was ahead of her but still had so much farther to go. Things got a bit better but were never good. She'd promise to work on her personal issues with a therapist but would see them infrequently because "it was too hard on her emotionally", plus she later admitted she had a habit of lying to them, so she made little progress.

Fast forward eight years, about a year before now. I was diagnosed with CPTSD and decided just to kick the crap out of it. I was tired of feeling worthless, stressed, and sad, so I went to see a counselor every week for months and just pummeled my CPTSD into shape. It's part of me and it's never going away, but it's not in charge anymore. We're just buds now and we look out for each other. During the last nine years, my wife has seen a counselor off and on but hasn't made a lot of progress. She's no longer out and out abusive, but she's sometimes unfair, we still can't talk about make serious issues, and she can't consistently make decisions that aren't detrimental to herself or us, so I spend a lot of time helping clean up her figurative messes.

She still frequently interrupts me during serious conversations, especially if they're critical of her, and argues with me when I tell her she's not letting me talk, often claiming that I'm somehow to blame. When she's not interrupting me, I often have to deal with a salvo of deflection. She'll talk about practically anything except the topic at hand and argues with me when I try to explain how what she's saying doesn't address my concerns. She still frequently deflects blame onto me as her knee jerk reaction if we make it past interruptions and deflection.

Regarding the unfairness, when we do reach an agreement, she not infrequently just does whatever she wants to anyhow. If I say anything about it, she deflects it back on me, saying I'm being controlling or we never agreed on anything, or that she's simply going to do it anyhow because it'll be "no big deal". I just want her to do what she agreed to do. That's all. There are still certain topics we just can't discuss, like her keeping things she doesn't use. For example, we have limited space and her stuff crowds me out. When we were in separate rooms, she had the entire master bedroom closet and half of the closet of the room I was staying in. When I told her she needed to make room for me, I initially got the complaint that I was "making her lose her identity". Any further conversations were sabotaged by her losing her temper and angrily deflecting until I either lost my temper and had to leave or just stopped trying to communicate.


My behavior has been changing for the worse. I've been dealing with the same issues with her for so long with so little progress that I'm growing increasingly angry and impatient. For example, I lost my temper and kicked a hole in the wall. This is entirely unlike me. I had had a drink (I'm typically a non drinker) and I made the mistake of asking her about why she was keeping some clothes she hasn't worn in years. It immediately turned into an argument. When I tried to explain my concerns, she just kept talking over me time and again. Then she said none of my concerns made any sense. Of course they didn't, she never let me explain myself! I tried to tell her it's because she won't let me talk, but she interrupted me. I actually yelled at her that she needed to be quiet so I could talk. She told me she wasn't interrupting me. I snapped. I went into the hall, started screaming, and repeatedly kicked the wall until I had kicked through it. I've never done anything even vaguely like this in my entire life and I felt so ashamed. I'm losing who I am. I was a calmer, more patient, far less stressed man ten years ago. Now I'm full of sadness, resentment, and anger toward her. So much anger.

Last December, I gave her an ultimatum - she has until the end of this year to start making significant changes, including working through her issues, or I'm leaving. Part of what working on my CPTSD has shown me is I don't want to be with someone like this, but I also fear I'm being unreasonable. She was abused so much worse than I was. I've told her she needs to start to handle her trauma and suggested increasing the frequency of her counseling sessions to more than once every 3-4 weeks. Nothing changed there. I've told her she needs to allow me to talk during arguments and, when she interrupts me, to listen when I tell her she's talking over me instead of arguing that she's not or blaming it on me. Nothing has changed there. I told her she needs to begin to engage with me on something I enjoy at least once every week or two. Nothing there either. When I tell her I'm going to leave, she points to the small amount of progress that she has made over ten years and tells me she's still working to get better and it'll take time. I ask her if she's doing the best she can and she admits she's not, but won't commit to making any changes.

I don't know what to do. I'm afraid to leave because I have a disability and have difficulty living on my own. I'm financially self sufficient, at least! I'm afraid I'm making a mistake and am leaving over things that will get better with time. I'm afraid I'm being too critical or that maybe I'm more of the problem than I realize. I try so hard to be understanding and accommodating but I know I sometimes can be blind to my own issues.

In summary, I don't know what to do. I place a lot of value on objective truth, but I'm so deep in this I can't tell what's real and what's my perception based on years of anger and frustration.

Does anyone have any advice?

[bloomie]

Venetir - welcome to Out of the FOG. Thank you for sharing with the community the circular type of dysfunctional communication and interactions that seem to be dominating your marriage. I am so sorry that you have need of us, yet thankful you have found this supportive community.

I have some thoughts after carefully reading your intro post. The nexus of your frustration and anger seems to be a kind of fatalistic approach to your shared life and personal space. You seem to be waiting... for your wife to share the closet space reasonably and fairly, for your wife to stop talking over you and disrespecting you when you are attempting to speak about something she doesn't like, agree with, or want to deal with, for your wife to take an interest in the things you are interested in, to handle her trauma like a mature adult by committing to the work consistently... and I could go on, but does that seem accurate?

When we make serious issues within our marriage known to our partners, issues that are harming us and causing disconnection to the point we are considering leaving and they choose not to adjust those behaviors or deal with them honestly we are faced with the important question of what is ours to do next.

The foundational thing to do for me has been to start at the basics which is developing worth for yourself and what you have to offer and determining core values that drive what does and does not work for you in relationship with anyone, much less your wife.

Shifting your focus on what you can control, change, cure is key - and that is always only yourself.

An example from my own relationship is that I do not allow myself to be verbally abused, continually interrupted and talked over, and verbally dominated. By anyone. How do I insure that for myself? When my own spouse attempts to talk over me, interrupts me for example in order to control my ability to be heard, I calmly leave the conversation. And go for a walk, listen to music, something to redirect my energy and frustration. Attempting to resolve and work through issues with someone who refuses to is unhealthy and draining. Especially if you find yourself acting out of character like you describe.

In other words... learning to set boundaries with consequences and live within them with someone who it sounds like takes up most of the physical space and emotional oxygen in the room is vital to finding enough firm ground under your feet to figure out what you want in this marriage.

There are wonderful resources throughout the forum and a great toolbox above that can be a huge help for you. The conversations and community will support you as you find a path to a more peaceful, resolved place in your life.

Keep coming back and sharing. It helps to lighten a heavy load! I look forward to supporting you! 

[bloomie]

I wanted to pop in and offer an article from our toolbox that may resonate with you:
the 51% rule

Here is a bit from the article:

The 51% Rule says that we need to consider our own needs just a little more than those of others in order to be able to help them effectively.

When we look at all the challenges associated with living with a person who suffers from a personality disorder, things can often seem frustrating and overwhelming. Sometimes, the mountain seems so high, all we can do is look at it. This tends to immobilize us. We become weaker and more frustrated. We become no help to the loved ones we care about or, just as importantly, to ourselves. Nothing gets done and nothing gets any better.

When we feel or perceive things in that way it's hard to make the decisions we need to make or to trust in the decisions we have already made.

There is a way that has worked for me in reducing the size of the mountain. Instead of looking at the relationship as a black and white issue (that either they have to get completely healthy or I have to gain complete control over them) I have found that all I need to do is get just a little more than halfway to be on healthy ground.

Since you mentioned you were struggling trusting yourself I thought this article may be helpful for you.

[Rebel13]

Welcome Venetir!

I went to see a counselor every week for months and just pummeled my CPTSD into shape. It's part of me and it's never going away, but it's not in charge anymore. We're just buds now and we look out for each other.

I love this! Thank you so much for the idea of being friends with CPTSD! I'm going to really think about the ways it has looked out for me.

I'm so sorry for the pain and distress you are going through. Bloomie's advice is phenomenal, as always.

I will just add, I think there is only one question you need to answer -- "Is this relationship acceptable to me?"**

From what you've said in your post, it sounds to me like you know in your heart it is not. It sounds like you have tried everything you can think of, but you can't make the relationship work by changing just yourself -- the only thing you truly can change.

I really feel for you, as my partner and I both struggle with CPTSD. She has sometimes demonstrated some of the same defensive behaviors you have mentioned, and I have sometimes acted out of frustration and not managing my own dysregulation in the way that I would like.  (DBT has helped me a lot with that!) HOWEVER -- we both have worked hard, and our relationship HAS improved over time in ways that I can see, feel, and appreciate.

Despite loving her, if I could have a magic wish to forget all this and start over without meeting her, I'd take it.

I'm so sorry you feel this way. But I also think this is a good awareness.

You deserve a partner who has brought unmitigated good into your life, alongside the normal difficulties and conflicts that are inevitable when two people try to share their lives intimately, and despite the extra challenges you both have from your histories of abuse.

Back to the title of your post, the sad reality is, it's not either/or.  Someone can be a victim of abuse, and can work hard to overcome the damage, as you have. Or, a person can be a victim of abuse, and be unwilling (or unable) to do the hard work that's needed for them to heal. Then, they end up taking their trauma out on others. Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to accept.


**This comes from the wonderful blogger ChumpLady whose work focuses on infidelity but IMO can be useful to people in all kinds of difficult relationships.

[Venetir]

Thanks, Bloomie and Rebel13! It's nice to feel seen and understood. I read through your responses and had a little sniffle.

I've decided I'm still giving this through the end of the year and I'm going to do my best to make this work. One thing I forgot to mention is my wife works full time and is in school part time through July, after which she'll graduate. She is sure that many of our issues are exacerbated by her being stretched so thin. I think it's worth giving a chance, even if part of me wants to run away screaming. Either way, I believe in keeping my word and I said she had until 2025. May as well stick it out a bit longer.

What makes this hard is my wife primarily is really a wonderful person. She's kind, considerate, funny, and intelligent, but the communication dysfunction on top of her pervasive insecurity makes it hard to have a functioning marriage. The love and kindness and all that is great, it's anything relating to the nuts and bolts of the marriage or even just functioning as roommates that's not so great. So I see so much good, get to wondering if the bad is really that bad, and then get analysis paralysis. How much bad is too much? Can we just live separate but connected lives in two houses? What if she was a wonderful person but also a murderer? That would be too much, so this isn't so bad, right? Yeah. So I'm starting to realize there's no universal answer to "too much bad". It's what I can handle, what's good (or not) for me and also us but, for myself, at least 51% good. Thank you for that, Bloomie. I'm a nurturer and I tend to sacrifice more of myself than I should. I like this 51% rule.

May I ask everyone for your thoughts around boundary setting? To preface, it's important to me to foster open and honest communication. I'm realizing I need to stop telling my wife what I think I need her to change to get what I need and to simply state what I need, to set that boundary, and let her be responsible for meeting it or not. For example, instead of trying to explain every possible way that I need her to stop interrupting and how I'll handle each instance so we might salvage a conversation, I'll instead simply explain that I need to be able to communicate with her regarding issues in our relationship and, if she begins to interrupt or deflect and refuses to stop, I'll simply dismiss myself from the conversation.

I feel like I should discuss my boundaries, the consequences for violating them, and the rationale behind all of this because that's what I'd want her to do for me. But she's not like me, otherwise we wouldn't be having these issues...we'd have different ones!

I read the JADE article and that's me in a nutshell. I want to build understanding and consensus and I feel transparency is important. Is sharing everything a bad idea, though? Should I keep some things to myself at it'll just overload my wife with possibly helpful but ultimately unnecessary information?

[square]

My recommendation is to simply live your boundaries - end the conversation when interrupted.

In my experience, verbalizing all the "rules" doesn't work and even backfires. The fact is, if this stuff made sense to her, she would have learned it in Kindergarten. Trying to set boundaries out loud just irritates people who fundamentally don't respect boundaries.

I wouldn't give warnings for name calling and other abusive behavior, just sail on out of there, but I MIGHT give one warning for interruptions. I wouldn't say "I'm going to end this conversation if you interrupt me again." I'd just say "let me finish." If it happened again, I'd shrug and walk.

I am quite familiar with the struggle of feeling like my spouse is fundamentally a good person deep down while also seeing another, unacceptable side. All I can say is that you are becoming aware of something, and it's for you to figure out if you can live with it. You might be able to make some changes in yourself that may make things more tolerable, by detaching and taking interactions less seriously. You can't change another person, though. And detaching carries a cost as well as providing protective benefits.

Perhaps indeed things will improve a bit with less stress in a few months. They are unlikely to improve a lot, but a bit might be enough, I don't know. It's also possible the goalposts might be moved.

Keep posting and keep reading. No matter the outcome, you will grow as a person, and it's well worthwhile.

[sunshine702]

Short of a few key details that sounds A LOT like my ex and I .  Narc moms each / check.  Her getting the abuse worse check🦯
Difficulty setting and keeping boundaries check. Slight clothes hoarding check.  Anger check.

For me my relationship came down to ARE WE FIGHTING this TOGETHER?  Are we a team?  The team does not always have to win but they do need to be playing to the best of their ability for the relationship.

Do think this it the case?

[sunshine702]

Sometime when I find myself asking is this situation X OR Y?

I try to journal the situation as This situation is X AND Y and here is evidence of both and my perception is actually pretty good (after years of gas lighting that part is important!)

[Rebel13]

Oh, I so agree with you, square, on the boundary setting! For years I felt like Venetir, that it was "only fair" to let people know about my boundaries and the consequences of violating them. But, those discussions always, always devolved into JADE for me. It feels so much better to just do the thing -- for example, if my mother started trying to guilt me about something over the phone, I would just say, Oh, I'm out of time for today, talk to you next time. Some people can make the connection, "Oh, when I do X, I stop getting attention" and modify their behavior. Some people don't. But either way, I am out of the unpleasant situation without having to explain *why*, which usually only gives a difficult person the opportunity to explain why my reasons suck or aren't valid or whatever. Trying to explain always ended up making the situation into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

[Rebel13]

I'm afraid to leave because I have a disability and have difficulty living on my own. I'm financially self sufficient, at least!

I thought about this after I read your initial post, and I wanted to come back and say, I'm glad money concerns are not limiting your options. I think it's very natural when you have a reason to feel extra vulnerable -- like having a disability -- to have a lot of fear about changing the status quo. But I also think, if you want to, and when the time is right for you, you would be able to figure out other options for getting the assistance you need to live alone. You've reiterated your commitment to staying through the end of the year, and you have other things to work on now. But maybe you can comfort yourself about the living alone concern, even while it is on the back burner, by telling yourself there are ways around things, and you don't know how your life might change or what opportunities might present themselves in the future. That's what I do, anyway! I hope it helps.

[square]

Oh, I so agree with you, square, on the boundary setting! For years I felt like Venetir, that it was "only fair" to let people know about my boundaries and the consequences of violating them. But, those discussions always, always devolved into JADE for me. It feels so much better to just do the thing -- for example, if my mother started trying to guilt me about something over the phone, I would just say, Oh, I'm out of time for today, talk to you next time. Some people can make the connection, "Oh, when I do X, I stop getting attention" and modify their behavior. Some people don't. But either way, I am out of the unpleasant situation without having to explain *why*, which usually only gives a difficult person the opportunity to explain why my reasons suck or aren't valid or whatever. Trying to explain always ended up making the situation into a much bigger deal than it needed to be.

Very true, you can get sucked into JADEing and then lose the game they are so good at playing.

Also, frankly, it feels controlling and threatening even for healthy people. I know I wouldn't really care for it if my husband said "next time you X, I'm leaving the house" or whatever. Even if the point was fair, the dynamic is not good. But if he just implemented it, it would hit different. It would feel more natural, like "oh, he's upset" rather than "he's punishing me."

Very important for us to remember boundaries are for us, period. And not a tool to control others. There is a lot we can do to protect ourselves (limiting information we share, insisting on meeting at a restaurant in seperate cars, hiring chores done instead of trying to make someone do them, etc.) without controlling others.

[sunshine702]

Boundaries as punishing.  Yes there is a real dance between being flooded and things escalating and taking some time separate (a walk a drive another bedroom) and silent treatment and never resolving / dealing at the first bump of conflict.  I think respect underlies the former not the latter.

[Venetir]

This last week, I found myself rationalizing how everything really isn't so bad. Sure, my wife is generally unable to handle conflict in the moment, so we just have to handle everything at later, pre-scheduled family meetings. That seems reasonable, right? See, I'm really good at rationalizing myself into working around bad behavior.

In our last family meeting, I talked about how it upsets me that she falls over herself apologizing about things I don't really care about but infrequently apologizes about things that do upset or hurt me. She told me that she feels she's apologizing appropriately but is still working on it so I need to be patient. Common story here.

So it happens today: I tell her an idea I have and her immediate response is to criticize it in multiple ways. I'm feeling deflated and tell her so. She starts telling me she's sorry for the things she thinks upset me, which are wrong, so I explain why I'm actually upset. She says "gotcha" and just walks away.

I give it a minute and follow her to point out how this is exactly what I'm talking about: she won't apologize for the things that actually matter, when she actually has skin in the game, so to speak. She tosses her sandwich a few feet onto the countertop and knocks some things over. I walk away, not wanting to deal with the dramatics.

She now follows me to explain her sandwich tossing, how she just didn't mean to knock over anything, as if sandwich tossing is an everyday occurrence. I explain that I didn't intend to have an entire discussion over my observation, just that I was pointing out my previously mentioned issue as it was happening. I'm then told that I need to not confront her about issues when she's not feeling well. She's on her period and is cramping and apparently it's awful. I knew she was menstruating but not that it's that bad. I explain my frustration, that when she's feeling well and her behavior isn't an issue, she claims she's not doing what's upsetting me. When she's out of sorts and her behavior is upsetting me, I can't mention it because she's having a hard day... which is usually why she's acting that way. If I wait to mention it later, it's not happening. Hmmm.

So maybe I'm deluding myself. Our life together is actually okay the majority of the time, but the minority of the time, when there is conflict, it's handled poorly because of her many, many defense mechanisms and lack of self-awareness. I'm learning to be okay with the idea of her behavior not being unacceptable to some sort of universal, verifiable, repeatable standard but simply not acceptable to me, and that doesn't mean I'm being selfish or intolerant or that I'm catastrophizing. The latter of watch I have a history of, which I think is partially the reason I'm so insecure sometimes about actually drawing hard boundaries in response to bad behavior.

[notrightinthehead]

Welcome to this site Venetir!

Your story above ".....I tell her an idea I have and her immediate response is to criticize it in multiple ways. I'm feeling deflated and tell her so. She starts telling me she's sorry for the things she thinks upset me, which are wrong, so I explain why I'm actually upset. She says "gotcha" and just walks away...."

I guess you felt hurt and demeaned at that point. Some  people would have walked away and engaged in some self soothing/ self compassion behavior at this point.

Everything you did after that point is about you trying to change her response and getting her to understand you/ admit that she did something wrong. You were trying to change her.

I am not criticizing you, just want to make you aware of the no win situation you engaged in.

As you hang around here, it will become painfully clear that the only person you can change is yourself. Of course you can continue to engage in these kind of interactions, but do they improve your well being?

[Rebel13]

when she's feeling well and her behavior isn't an issue, she claims she's not doing what's upsetting me. When she's out of sorts and her behavior is upsetting me, I can't mention it because she's having a hard day... which is usually why she's acting that way. If I wait to mention it later, it's not happening. Hmmm.

Ugh, Venetir, I'm so sorry. This is so hard and frustrating. But I read something somewhere like, "If you want water, you have to take your bucket to a well that has water in it." Your wife sounds like an empty well, for you, right now. notrightinthehead's suggestion of figuring out some ways to provide yourself with soothing and compassion when this happens, seems like a good one to me, and good practice for a potential future where you are on your own.

I'm learning to be okay with the idea of her behavior not being unacceptable to some sort of universal, verifiable, repeatable standard but simply not acceptable to me, and that doesn't mean I'm being selfish or intolerant or that I'm catastrophizing.

This is so true! When it comes to relationships, there are a LOT of gray areas. What's OK with one person is completely unacceptable to another. My dad sometimes says some pretty crude things, and my mother would completely lose her mind when he did that. The first time I saw him do it in front of my stepmother, she laughed and said, "Oh, you!" I was kind of floored! But it explained so much about why my parents' relationship didn't work, and my dad and stepmother did. Maybe someone else would shrug, walk away and forget about the incidents that are really bothering you in your relationship. But that doesn't mean YOU need to tolerate them, if they're not OK with you.