Today is my birthday. I could really use some support

square · September 08, 2021, 05:24:08 PM

The things I want to do differently:

Have a clean house that I feel comfortable in and can relax in. And that I'm not ashamed to have visitors to. (Difficulty is cleaning up after severe slob while I have limited energy and limited eyesight)

Exercise. (Difficulty is can't walk comfortably without driving to another spot, which I can't do. Can do other things like pushups but really benefit from the energy of frequent walks to get to the next level of pushups and such. Also, do not want to be caught exercising and have critical comments though I now understand they are about his insecurity).

Eat better. (Absolutely nothing to do with H at all. I have to make stuff DD will like and I would just do it differently if it were just me.)

With a clean house and not having to worry about nasty comments, improve relationships with some people and have them over more.

Further to clean house, also declutter, which is hard because I can't remove the items (drive trash to dump or drive donations to Goodwill). This will be improved next year when DD drives.

Would like to complete necessary home repairs. (Have limited mental energy plus am ashamed of contractors seeing my home).

Hire lawn maintenance. Can't afford it but may have no choice.

Work on something. A project, a paper, try to answer a big question. Help someone with something. Am limited by energy, motivation, and blindness.

WearyHusband · September 08, 2021, 05:33:13 PM

SoT,
I am back home after a wonderful and fulfilling work trip.

I have taken time to reflect on your thought experiment. Ready to play along. It was challenging to do this thought experiment without daydreaming about other possible romantic relationship opportunities, but I stayed within the parameters you laid out.

Here are my answers. I welcome your input, even if it's painful:

Work - I would throw myself into meaningful work that I enjoy more fully and with more confidence. I would take more risks in both investments and in my entrepreneurial interests.

Kids - I would take them on more adventure trips with me into the wilderness, especially my youngest two. I would also take them on more work trips. My line of work gives me numerous opportunities to include my kids. I would set up their school arrangements to allow for these trips with me.

Friends - I would enjoy more social times with friends in my home and out (we almost never have social times with friends together currently, either in our home or out). My uPDw is not currently comfortable with people coming into our home.

Other Family Members - I would see my extended family more often and enjoy times with them and my children, both in our current hometown and other cities. We've been largely cut off from my family at my uPDw's insistence. I would invite my family to spend more time with me and my kids here, and to help us with our schedule, as they've indicated a desire to do so for many years.

Hobbies - Nothing different, though I would experience more freedom to pursue hobbies without a fear of reprisals from my uPDw. Through therapy and Codependency recovery, I'm learning to ignore these fears and pursue what I like without seeking her approval.

Daily Schedule - My daily schedule would be altered with the full responsibility of my children. My uPDw currently takes on a lot of responsibility (her choice) for our kids' schooling. (She's homeschooled them most of their lives. Our first child just left for college.)

New Adventurous Ideas - more outdoor adventures, more cross-cultural adventures with my kids (my line of work gives me numerous cross cultural opportunities). I would also seek out more healing opportunities at spiritual discovery seminars.

Travels - Some listed above. I would consider moving with my two youngest kids overseas for an extended season, where I have work opportunities. After my two youngest leave the house (in five years), I would consider purchasing an RV or some kind of travel trailer to allow me to travel around the country for work/adventures.

Your House - I would enjoy alcohol moderately in our home (currently restricted by uPDw. Though I'm not an alcoholic and have not been abusive or excessive with alcohol, she threatens to leave with the kids if I have even one beer/wine in the house. It's a long story to explain why and it wouldn't make rational sense anyway. It's been a major point of contention). I would purchase a small, but sufficient, home to accommodate my children and I that would also be a base to travel from in future years.

Your Health/Body - My health is good. Exercise has been a lifeline of sanity for me and I don't think this would change much. I would probably seek out more opportunities to connect socially with others around my exercise, though. I regularly do fairly extreme hikes/runs in the wilderness and would probably seek out more friendships with others who share the same interests as I currently do these solo.

Weary's Fashion Preferences - Same

Others Areas? I would seek out continued therapy for my own recovery from Codependency/Caretaking as a single man. I would seek out therapy to understand what in my upbringing prepped me to choose a PD for a spouse and why I continued to endure abusive behavior for so, so long, with increasing harmful effects on me emotionally, mentally, and physically. I'm currently doing this, but I would continue.

SonofThunder · September 08, 2021, 05:43:52 PM

escapingman,

Thanks for your reply. Since in my daydreaming example, your uPDw is not around, then im going to re-write them to eliminate her PD actions and reactions. Doing that editing, the list could be:

- Make proactive time to appreciate peace, quietness and calmness.
- Lay in bed to 10AM on Saturday mornings.
- Watch my favorite movies or TV programs in the evenings.
- Increased visits with my friends and family when they are available to gather with me and the kids.
- Have my kid's friends over to our place more often than before and have pizza parties.
- Go to the shops and/or garden centre's and enjoy shopping and my outdoor projects.
- Work at the selected hours i desire.

Most of what i removed are reactions and/or actions of your PDw, not real restrictions, at this time, on your capability to actually do the list.

SoT

SonofThunder · September 08, 2021, 06:04:29 PM

Weary, thanks for playing along as well! Since you took the time to answer in full to the suggested topics (and this is your thread) I want to read and reply carefully, and in full. What I desire to do in this, is to encourage my Out of the FOG comrades to daydream, brainstorm and look at their answers to find creative ways to steadily work on these goals right now, regardless of marital status and using the toolbox fully, versus putting them off, so that you AND your children can begin to enjoy the benefits. They will be very busy at a later age and their growing-up clocks tick steady onward, regardless of any chosen delays in our adult personal desires... i know this well now, and wish i knew sooner.

Because of the 50% rule, there are some things that may have to wait or can be creatively 50% accomplished in fairness while in a marriage, since each party in the marriage has equal legal adult rights and ethical rights to have fair input regarding their own (non-manipulative) desires, such as your desire for more risk-taking with investment finances and some larger marital purchases, such as an RV.

I will respond fully with opinions and questions to your above answers in the next 24 hours. Thanks again for taking the time to entertain the daydreaming idea.

Keep in mind this question to yourself, regarding each daydream idea you mentioned:

"If I proactively move forward now, in a 50% fair manner within my marriage, to make these daydream goal-ideas a reality for myself and our children, without restricting my spouse's daydream goal-ideas for herself/our children, what is the most extreme (be realistic to your situation) reaction/action I may face from my uPDspouse, that is out of my Out of the FOG toolbox capable self-control to protect myself?"

Your spouse leaving the marriage? (Which then allows the goals to steadily happen anyway).

SoT

SonofThunder · September 09, 2021, 07:47:50 AM

Hello Weary,

I have taken your daydream responses and (like I did with escapingman's responses) altered the responses to exclude most PD attributes regarding. Below is a suggested rewording of your responses for your consideration in starting your daydreams right now, while married to your PDw, and using the complete toolbox in a powerful protective way for yourself and your children. Since this is your thread, I also made an opposite balanced list (my next post) for your wife , for how you may desire to consider your wife's adult-rights for herself.

Some of your original daydreams may conflict with your wife's rights as an adult with children. Where I believed this may occur, I removed them from your list and added into her list (next post below) for your consideration of her adult choices.

1. Below is the suggested re-written list for Weary's daydreams.

2. My next post will be a suggested Weary's-wife's choices for herself, while Weary achieves his own adult-rights goals for himself and his children.

3. Question I would like you to answer on this thread: Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting this list below? Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward. Sure, being married to a PD will make this list an emotional obstacle course (vs being married to a nonPD) but that is Weary's choice, since you currently are still married (50% rule applies to both you and your wife). *Note I also used '51/49' in areas of my writing, because of the 51% rule, that is a reality for both you AND your wife.

4. Same question as yesterday: If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list below (which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction you could realistically face from your PDw. Divorce? If so, that is HER adult choice to do so and to your advantage in potential custody and alimony considerations, as none of Wearys daydream choices are unfair, hurtful or manipulative/controlling of your PDw. Also, if your wife chooses divorce, you will be possibly able, when the final divorce dust settles, to begin steadily working in the daydreams that you excluded in fairness to your spouse, in a legal marriage.

SoT
————

Weary's Desires for Himself.

Work - I will throw myself into meaningful work that I enjoy more fully and with more confidence.

Kids - I will take them (multiple child or one child) on more adventure trips with me (solo) into the wilderness, especially my youngest two. I will also take them on more work trips. My line of work gives me numerous opportunities to include my kids.

Friends - I will enjoy more social times with my guy friends, outside of my home.

Other Family Members - I will see my extended family more often and enjoy times with them and include my children on more visits with family. I will not pressure my wife to come with me, but I desire to take all the kids with me in my visits, and she can stay home if she chooses that for herself.

Hobbies- Nothing new at the moment, but
potentially actively pursue new hobbies.

Daily Schedule - Nothing drastic at the moment. But, since regular exercise has been something I greatly enjoy and makes me feel mentally healthy, I will continue exercising daily at times that suit my work and my dad-time schedule in a balanced way. I will seek out more opportunities to connect socially, through my exercise interests and hobbies, with other men, in whose company I may enjoy. I want to promote including my children in some one-on-one exercise opportunities to do together, since it's more dad/child time and exercise is also to their benefit.

New Adventurous Ideas - I will schedule more outdoor adventures, more cross-cultural adventures with my kids (dad/kid time) in a 51/49 free-time manner and make the effort to be helpful to my wife in her possible outside-the-home adventurous ideas of her own on her 51/49 free time, regardless of whether she is supportive of me. If she chooses not to participate in her own adventures, I will still pursue my own.

Since my wife currently doesn't enjoy the same activities as I do, she can schedule her own adventure activities (either solo, with her friends, or with the kids) on her 51% of her available free time. If she chooses to spend her 51% free time with her friends or solo, I will use those opportunities for my adventurous time with the kids.

I will attend additional spiritual discovery seminars in my 51/49 available time.

Travels - Currently as a married man, I know these ideas below would disrupt the daydreams my wife has for herself and her children. But, in daydreaming about myself solo; I would consider moving with my two youngest kids overseas for an extended season, where I have work opportunities. After my two youngest leave the house (in five years), I would consider purchasing an RV or some kind of travel trailer to allow me to travel around the country for work/adventures.

My House - I will enjoy alcohol moderately in my home, and will teach my children that self-control and balance in all things, including alcohol, is good self-management. I also don't desire to make alcohol 'taboo' in our home, because it possibly encourages my kids to adventurously explore the 'off-limits/taboo' alcohol outside the home, to learn about what was SO forbidden. In their immature state as non-adults, alcohol exploration can be harmful.

Because of the potential alcohol laws in my country, I will not permit my children to break laws and consume alcohol in my home/family rules while they are living on my dollar/under my roof. But when each one turns of legal drinking age, I may choose to include them, if they desire in their own adult choices for alcohol enjoyment, as a way to socially connect with my adult children, and appreciate the artful craft of beer, wine and spirits in a self-controlled manner.

Fashion Preferences - Same. If I want to explore different styles I will enjoy doing so. If I want to grow a beard or mustache, or shave off my current one(s), I will do so. I will style myself any way I desire.

Others Areas- I will, as a man married to a PDw, seek out private, continued therapy for my own recovery from Codependency/Caretaking.

*NOTE*. Weary, the following part, I twisted to look at it from the opposite direction, which in my opinion, is more beneficial to you in your therapy and understanding. Surely understanding why PD's do what they do is beneficial, but PD's always need a target, so altering what makes you a natural target, is most beneficial, as it cuts off the 'caretaking' attributes that feed the PD traits.

Other Areas- I will privately seek out therapy to understand what in my upbringing prepped me to be a natural 'caretaker' that attracted a PD spouse, and why I continued to endure abusive behavior for so, so long, with increasing harmful effects on me emotionally, mentally, and physically. I will understand that PD's seek out natural 'caretakers' and love-bomb them prior to marriage and realize that sometimes PD's will use having children with a caretaker, to lock-in and use, control and manipulate the caretaker for their own long term benefit, while the PD enjoys the children in this manipulated environment.

SonofThunder · September 09, 2021, 07:52:24 AM

Weary, see your list in the previous post. Below is a 'Weary's Wife's' list of rights/choices because of each of you (you and your wife's) current 50% rule choices to remain married.

*Note the italics for your awareness of potential proactive PD traits of manipulation/control.

*Note that this list is fairly short, meaning not many alterations to your list (in the previous post) needed to be made to protect your wife's legal adult-rights choices for herself, her share of finances, her time, her extended family and her children. Weary thats a GREAT thing for you, that SO MANY items on your list are in your legal adult-rights wheelhouse to begin immediately.

SoT
——————

Weary's Wife's Rights/Choices (taken from Weary's daydream answers).

Work- My wife is not comfortable taking financial risks with the money that she earns in her employment, or depending on how I perceive monies; in her legal half of our marital money.

Our Kids- My wife benefits from, and enjoys the current homeschool schedule and flexibility for her kids, in which she has chosen to educate.

Friends- My uPDw is not currently comfortable with people coming into her home.

NOTE *Weary, this is the PD trait of isolation of the target and is done purposefully to control the target(s) and better shield the PD from others outside the home.

Other Family Members- My wife does not desire to be around extended family.

NOTE * "We've been largely cut off from my family at my uPDw's insistence:" Weary, this is additionally, the PD trait of isolation of the target and is done purposefully to control the target(s) and better shield the PD from others outside the home.

Our Home- My wife does not desire for herself to participate in moderate alcohol consumption and she does not share my appreciation of the tastes and crafts of beer, wine and spirits. I agree with her on enforcing our home/home country laws on underage drinking with regard to our children.

WearyHusband · September 09, 2021, 10:25:28 AM

SoT,
Sheesh. So much wisdom in your response. Your response was so helpful and a boost to my soul. Reading your responses are like lifting my head out of a fog of confusion and seeing clearly for the first time in a long time. I have been SO confused over what my rights are, what freedom of choice I have, what boundaries I can set, and being confused over what is just me "being selfish" when I make a choice for myself that my wife doesn't like or becomes moody about. This last year, as I started to set boundaries to protect myself and increasingly made choices that I wanted for myself, I often immediately swung into feeling guilty, like setting boundaries or making choices about my own life is hurting my uPDw. But I'm learning to stay firm with my boundaries, regardless of her response, and I'm slowly becoming stronger. I've spent so much energy as a recovering co-dependent/caretaker altering my behavior to manage her moods, or avoid her anger, thinking I was being loving and kind, "laying down my life for my wife", etc. Meanwhile my sense of self, my self-esteem, and freedom to live responsibly as I choose as an adult gradually and increasingly eroded.

It's been a lengthy process. As I said before, "two steps forward, one step back." Today, I'll take two steps forward. I commit not to step back, but to be gracious with myself if/when I do.

Grateful for you SoT,
-WH

SonofThunder · September 09, 2021, 11:56:16 AM

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 09, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
SoT,
Sheesh. So much wisdom in your response. Your response was so helpful and a boost to my soul. Reading your responses are like lifting my head out of a fog of confusion and seeing clearly for the first time in a long time. I have been SO confused over what my rights are, what freedom of choice I have, what boundaries I can set, and being confused over what is just me "being selfish" when I make a choice for myself that my wife doesn't like or becomes moody about. This last year, as I started to set boundaries to protect myself and increasingly made choices that I wanted for myself, I often immediately swung into feeling guilty, like setting boundaries or making choices about my own life is hurting my uPDw. But I'm learning to stay firm with my boundaries, regardless of her response, and I'm slowly becoming stronger. I've spent so much energy as a recovering co-dependent/caretaker altering my behavior to manage her moods, or avoid her anger, thinking I was being loving and kind, "laying down my life for my wife", etc. Meanwhile my sense of self, my self-esteem, and freedom to live responsibly as I choose as an adult gradually and increasingly eroded.

It's been a lengthy process. As I said before, "two steps forward, one step back." Today, I'll take two steps forward. I commit not to step back, but to be gracious with myself if/when I do.

Grateful for you SoT,
-WH

Hello again Weary,

Im so joyed to hear you are boldly and immediately, going to take 2 steps forward at all times. As I said though, the reality of being married to a PD spouse is the PD traits obstacle course that we emotionally have to deal with, in which other people, not in PD relationships, just cant understand. Therefore in your 2-steps-forward goals, realize the emotional, physical, financial, sexual manipulation will be an ongoing path of briars in your path to self improvement, that you will need to constantly overcome by the toolbox, in order to continue down the trail and not circle back on the IDD hamster wheel.

Also, please be well aware that correctly setting proper boundaries, exercising the toolbox in full, and moving forward on your daydream goals starting today (allowing both you and your wife to exercise your adult rights, while protecting yourself from her trying to control yours using PD actions/reactions) may greatly increase the intensity of your wife's tactics to reset you in the cycle. She may believe (correctly so!! 😀) that she is losing control of Weary in his bold new self.

*Side Note*: The answer is "yes, you are correct" that Weary IS changing from the 'man she married' when she accuses you 😂. Because Weary has been doing a lot of self-contemplation and analyzation lately, he is working on improving himself in ways that Weary believes are proper, and will support as best possible, his wife doing the same thing with herself.

*Side Note*. Remember to always 'hold your cards close' (a poker term) to not reveal your self-improvement plans, as revealed plans to a PD is a road map for their manipulative planning.

I recommend you keep the IDD cycle fresh in your mind and recognize the stage(s) you are always currently residing. The two D's of Devaluation and Discard may occur simultaneously as she both tries to emotionally tear you down, while at the same time using discarding traits (you experience now). All of which are trying to reset Weary back into HER comfort zone with you being the caretaker she married. When she gets increasingly more uncomfortable and her internal-self starts a bit of collapse, allow her to experience and deal with herself in a fully adult manner, and protect yourself throughout with the toolbox, while being available to her for acts for kindness (a hold/a hug/a neutral MC ear) in her mental collapse. Possibly imagine how you would lovingly deal with a coworker or friend in a emotional collapse moment and deal with your PDw the same neutral way. You DID NOT cause it.

The ultimate discard is emotional affairs, physical affairs, divorce and most extreme...self-harm and/or threats of suicide. I know this sounds extreme, but can be a very effective PD shock-tool to try and reset the caretaker (many over my time here have experienced these contemplations/ threats, including myself). If she were to mention/threaten self-harm/suicidal thoughts, the proper and loving response by you is: "when i hear thoughts of or threats of self-harm/suicide, i will immediately call the notify the police, so a highly trained specialist can deal with my wife, since i am not qualified". I surely don't like to discuss this with others on the forum, but know its a real possibility and a desperate attempt to reset the caretaker back to the start of the cycle, as the PD faces the non's proper boundaries, that the PD cannot overcome any longer.

Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote. Again, here they are:

1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list? *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.

2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?

SoT

JustKeepTrying · September 09, 2021, 11:57:40 AM

Wow, such an interesting thread and wonderful responses.

To Weary, I've been there. more than 30 years to my xOCPDh. Your wife uses guilt and mine did as well to control me. The words differ but guilt is what kept me in the marriage for decades. I know from my childhood and abuse that guilt built the fog around me and I moved through from one controlling environment to another. It was only with a doctor's diagnosis of PTSD, EMDR therapy and lots of support here that I was able to finally take that last step Out of the FOG and divorce my ex.

I wasn't able to stay in the marriage - my health teetered and I had to leave to live. Daily seizures and bouts of aphasia - cancer, and so much more. But now that I have been out for the past two years and finally beginning to put it behind me - life has been better. Tough but better.

If I can play along with SOT - I am a little bit along in my daydreaming - Kids are out of the house and on their own (I am empty nesting two weeks now) and there are no plans for romance in the future (just don't want to go there)

Work - Continue to write and create as the inspiration flows
Kids - Guide and support them emotionally on their adult journeys
Other family - Take and have taken opportunities to reconnect with my family (vacationed with my sister and brother that I haven't seen in 10 years due to my ex's dislike of them)
Hobbies - I have already started and dropped several to my own joy and realization that some things I just don't like even though they look pretty in the window - but others provide real joy
Daily Schedule - Wake up when I am ready/sleep when I am sleepy/Eat when I am hungry. LOVE THIS
New Adventures - Beginning in a few weeks my first big adventure by living in a campervan and touring the national parks/seashore - I love nature and camping and have worked diligently to create a system that accommodates my handicap
Current Home - I was going to leave the duplex but have decided to keep it for a little longer - in case the pandemic turns worse and provide my youngest freshman college son a place to land on holidays. The travel mentioned above will also help me decide where and what I want to do next - very mixed and confused feelings there that I need to sort
Health/Body Preferences - Finally exercising gently without shame and pushing myself gently - I am also talking to myself in the mirror daily and sending myself the love my younger self craved - also finally able to create healthier food choices and have lost 25 pounds
Fashion - finally gave in to the fun prints I love without shame/grew my hair out/created a minimalistic approach to my fashion that I now am fully embracing
Other areas - Control over all my finances/Organized my life into manageable time and storage areas/Daily clean my house Houzah!/Become political and volunteer without shame/Meditate Daily and take moments to breathe in the calm/Enjoy the not having to check-in and schedule my life as I see fit

Yes, there are asides to life without him - but I put them there to indicate how far I have come in such a short time. My emotions are steadier. I see life very clearly now and my memory issues are gone. Life inside the fog felt off and disconnected from my true self. I finally feel as if I have the opportunity to shift to my true self.

ASIDE: I am not advocating divorce and you have posted in committed. I am only offering my reason for leaving. I did try for a long time to make it work. In many people's eyes, 32 years of marriage would be successful. I count it as such. Much peace to you weary

SonofThunder · September 09, 2021, 12:11:23 PM

JustKeepTrying,

Congratulations on the bold moves you know were/are necessary in your life. It was a joy to read your daydreaming goals and so I reply as a cheerleader to encourage you and my Out of the FOG comrades forward! Cheers to you as you make them a reality!

SoT

WearyHusband · September 10, 2021, 09:27:41 PM

SoT,
Here's what happened as I implemented this plan.
Tonight we celebrated my birthday from last week with a Friday night grill out in our backyard.
I cooked steaks and salmon on the grill.
I told my wife previously that I wanted to have a beer with my birthday meal and she said, "OK."
I went and got a six pack of beer earlier today and put it in the refrigerator.
I told her about it, and told her gently and calmly that I plan to enjoy alcohol moderately in the house from now on.
I had one beer with dinner.
After dinner, she said, "I am not safe! This is my house! I don't want alcohol in our house! You are choosing to make me not safe! You are choosing alcohol over me!"
I gently affirmed her that she is safe and has nothing to fear. I gently but firmly asserted that I enjoy the craft of beer and will model responsible and moderate drinking in front of our children.
I affirmed that she does not desire to drink alcohol moderately, she is welcome to leave, that this is my house also, and this is what I am going to do. I told her I don't want to raise my children in a home where alcohol is taboo, as I believe it could lead to dangerous paths in their lives down the road.
She said, "What if I just took those beers then?"
I said, "Well, I can't control what you do, but that would be stealing."
She went to the refrigerator and took the rest of the six pack (the five other beers).
She left the house with them.
????
Ok, I've asserted my boundaries and rights. I think I did the right thing. I feel good. I'm done with the arguing.
But what the heck????
-WH

WearyHusband · September 11, 2021, 02:42:02 PM

SoT,
In case my last post was confusing - on my birthday, we agreed we would have a celebration dinner after I returned from a work trip, thus the events of last night.

In response to your other suggestion:

"Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote....
1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list? *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.
2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?"

Here are my responses:
1) What is preventing me from proactively and immediately starting my daydream list? FEAR. The only thing preventing me is using my uPDw as the excuse for not moving forward. I have lived in fear for so, so long. Fear of how my uPDw will respond. Fear that I'm making the wrong decision. Fear that somehow all are problems are actually my fault and I haven't done enough to change or please her or provide a safe enough environment for her healing. Fear that I'm one of those selfish a-hole people who destroy marriages. Even after the events of last night, I've wrestled with moments of panic today, thinking, "What did I just do? Isn't it incredibly selfish of me to behave in ways that cause fear in my uPDw? Is something wrong with me?" I know it's sick, but the thoughts come. But I will no longer let fear control me. I am developing a more clear picture of reality. I am becoming courageous. I have a life to live. I am a good husband and father and friend. I'm human and have lots of areas to continue growing, but I am worthy of love and my life is worth living without fear. If my kids were in a similar situation, I wouldn't want them to remain in the FOG for as long as I have, in the name of a twisted sense of love, duty, and loyalty. The perverse thinking of Caretaking. I WILL immediately start implementing my daydream list.

2) After making the bold decision to activate my entire list, the most extreme action/reaction I could realistically face from my wife (that I can think of) are these:
That she would move out. That she would file for divorce. That she would go into an extreme panic and begin berating me. That she might take our three youngest kids and find a hotel somewhere. That she would twist things to add fuel to her narrative of how I am abusive.

SonofThunder · September 11, 2021, 04:08:32 PM

Hi Weary,

First, Let me congratulate you on your well planned and strong boundary choices to enjoy a beer for your birthday! The salmon and steaks sound magnificent. What kind of beer did you choose for the food pairing?

Although there may have tension present, I hope you fully enjoyed the inaugural birthday brew. In addition, i hope you saved the bottle as a silent visual reminder (kept somewhere safe from the trash...) of the secret and strong toolbox occasion. In a way, this was not just the celebration of your birthday, but possibly a celebration of the birth of the new Weary:

"Ive asserted my boundaries and rights. I think I did the right thing. I feel good. I'm done with the arguing."
-Weary

I fully agree with your most of your actions and reactions, and the way you wrote it, I will assume your reactions were stated in a neutral medium-chill way, contrasted to her high emotions.

Her responses to your actions and statements, are classic PD trait responses. I enjoy taking time to analyze what occurred and also what did NOT occur. I believe that this type of analysis is healthy for me after these types of moments and also healthy for me to journal the analysis.

You wrote:

"After dinner, she said, "I am not safe! This is my house! I don't want alcohol in our house! You are choosing to make me not safe! You are choosing alcohol over me!"

The first three statements are the PD traits of very 'black and white' thinking; very 'all or nothing' and are all about her, not you, which is a classic style response for a PD. They are her opinions and she has full rights to feel that way.

Your response of "I gently affirmed her that she is safe and has nothing to fear" is your own opinion, which counters hers. Imo, next time you should consider allowing her to have her own opinions without you responding to statements (they were not questions). You may also appreciate her allowing the same for you, but good luck with that. 😂 Either way, treating others how I desire to be treated is my desire for myself.

The last two are not questions either, but are about you and therefore accusation-bait. If i chose to respond to that from my uPDw, it would be something very short and neutral that conveys "im sorry you feel that way".

You wrote:

"I gently but firmly asserted that I enjoy the craft of beer and will model responsible and moderate drinking in front of our children.I affirmed that she does not desire to drink alcohol moderately, she is welcome to leave, that this is my house also, and this is what I am going to do. I told her I don't want to raise my children in a home where alcohol is taboo, as I believe it could lead to dangerous paths in their lives down the road."

I love this response! They are your choices for yourself, and your opinion and choice regarding alcohol/taboo/kids and your choice for your 50% rights in raising your kids and 50% of your home (which may be not an opinion, but a legal fact regarding the house).

Her desperate response of 'taking the beer' is so classic PD. Haha i have experienced this type of control action so much from both my father and wife, and believe its a last resort type of baiting-threat and i loved your response. I want to point out what she did NOT do.

She did not respond to your 1. Concern for the children's long-term well-being regarding full understanding and balanced enjoyment of alcohol. 2. The fact that you have 50% rights to decisions regarding your children and the legal right to half your home....and therefore 1/2 of the shared possessions, including the fridge.

Here are some other facts to consider as a next move.

-If joint funds were used to buy a 6-pack then technically she had rights to three beers and if she would have asked you for her three, the answer should be a quick yes.
They are hers to do whatever she desires.

-Weary drank one of his three, so he still has two left and she took them.

-Half of the fridge is Weary's.

If I were in your situation, my only next response action/reaction to her taking the beer is:

-I would quietly go buy another 6 pack and in permanent marker, write your name on 5 of the labels and her name only on 1 label.

-After quietly putting them in the fridge, i would calmly, in a business-like tone, tell her that she was surely entitled to 3 of the first 6 beers and now 3 of the second six, currently in the fridge. But...since she took your 2 from the first 6 pack and not returned them yet, you have simply allocated 1 beer of the second 6 pack to her and it has her name on the label. Therefore she does not need to return your remaining two. 😉. The controlling wind from her beer-taking 'sails' just died off to nothing because you are indifferent to her action/reaction, yet still being calmly fair to her rights.

-I would MC/noJADE any response from her regarding your new 6 pack.

-I would not address any of the events from the birthday, but quietly move along.

If she repeats the action/reaction from that evening and discards your next beers, i have a next step in the plan, but will wait on that opinion, since you may choose to do something entirely different.

Imo, this is MUCH more than about alcohol, but addresses facts about adult rights of each of you, and her attempts at control and baiting you into circular drama. So this simple exercise using a 6 pack of beer, makes a very calm, unmoving, boundary-protected, quiet statement from Weary.

I look forward to reading about your next steps in the long term, forward progress plans for yourself. Enjoy your beer!

SoT

WearyHusband · September 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM

Thanks for your thoughtful response, SoT. I will post anything that happens next.
And yes, I stayed entirely calm in the exchanges last night, MChill and noJADE.
I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her.
Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos. Wow, it's astounding how much this motivation comes up in my journey Out of the FOG.
Also, I am considering your analysis about how I responded to her response that she is not safe by contradicting her and telling her that she was, indeed, safe.
Grateful,
WH

square · September 11, 2021, 04:55:30 PM

" and are all about her, not you, which is a classic style response for a PD"

This just stood out to me because "it's all about you" is a frequent refrain from my H when responding to non-loaded "I" statements from me.

I can't exactly speak for him. A conversation is two people speaking for themselves and trying to findcommon ground. But I can't speak for him, he must speak for himself. (And he doesn't exactly attempt to speak for me, unless it's to belittle me somehow).

While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground.

WearyHusband · September 11, 2021, 08:07:59 PM

square,

You said,

"While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground."

Yes, good observation about it not being unfair for my wife to share what distresses her. Thank you.

What is so confusing to me is living for so long trying to figure out what actions/words/situations are going to trigger my uPDw's distress or fear, then altering my behavior accordingly. Cancelling plans with people. Asking out of contracts we discussed for days and agreed to, then she when she feels fear about it at the last minute, I go and try to find a way out. She feels fear around having sex, so we go months without touching affectionately.

She is afraid of me, so in her mind I am abusive (though she has no rational explanation for this and is not willing to talk to a third party about it.)

My life and dignity increasingly was being eroded to the level of whatever fear that emerged in her. Dang, I love her so much, but I'm unpacking in this season what is actual love and what is just a bond formed around chaos, where I have degraded myself to the point of emasculation with someone who controls through her moods (and until recently I have responded back as a Codependent/Caretaker by trying to manipulate her moods, apologize repeatedly, try to say things just the right way, obsess with finding what's wrong with me, etc. - no longer). I've responded with placating and acquiescence in order to maintain relationship - then experienced repeated verbal attacks when any attempt is made for rational discussion about compromise together in a marriage relationship.

It's like her fear is a trump card - if she feels fear about anything, it gives her a trump card to stop me, and I've let it happen for so long, thinking that was the way to have a healthy relationship. In normal non-PD relationships, I think that's right. In PD relationships, it's a recipe for craziness and an unsustainable life. I've lived in extraordinary confusion, feeling helpless and powerless. Over the last several years, up until eight months ago when I moved out of our bedroom to protect myself, started setting boundaries, found a good therapist who understands PD's/Caretaking behavior, joined CODA and found Out of the FOG, I was in a very dark place. Now, I have increasing frequency of hope, joy, sanity. I am living more frequently ( though I still have rough days) with the belief that regardless of what my wife chooses, I'm going to live by my values and implement healthy boundaries and choices for myself.

One step at a time. I'll keep moving forward.

WH

SonofThunder · September 12, 2021, 07:25:13 AM

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 11, 2021, 02:42:02 PM
SoT,
In case my last post was confusing - on my birthday, we agreed we would have a celebration dinner after I returned from a work trip, thus the events of last night.

In response to your other suggestion:

"Lastly, I want to encourage you to write your reply here to my two questions from my previous replies. Writing them can be a powerful tool and you can always come back and read what you wrote....
1. Weary, what is preventing you from proactively and immediately starting the daydream list? *Imo, you cannot use your PDw as the excuse for an answer, because your adult legal rights and the toolbox fully allow you to move boldly forward.
2. If you Weary, make the bold decision to immediately activate your entire list (above..which is fully doable imo), what is the most extreme action/reaction YOU could realistically face from your PDw?"

Here are my responses:
1) What is preventing me from proactively and immediately starting my daydream list? FEAR. The only thing preventing me is using my uPDw as the excuse for not moving forward. I have lived in fear for so, so long. Fear of how my uPDw will respond. Fear that I'm making the wrong decision. Fear that somehow all are problems are actually my fault and I haven't done enough to change or please her or provide a safe enough environment for her healing. Fear that I'm one of those selfish a-hole people who destroy marriages. Even after the events of last night, I've wrestled with moments of panic today, thinking, "What did I just do? Isn't it incredibly selfish of me to behave in ways that cause fear in my uPDw? Is something wrong with me?" I know it's sick, but the thoughts come. But I will no longer let fear control me. I am developing a more clear picture of reality. I am becoming courageous. I have a life to live. I am a good husband and father and friend. I'm human and have lots of areas to continue growing, but I am worthy of love and my life is worth living without fear. If my kids were in a similar situation, I wouldn't want them to remain in the FOG for as long as I have, in the name of a twisted sense of love, duty, and loyalty. The perverse thinking of Caretaking. I WILL immediately start implementing my daydream list.

2) After making the bold decision to activate my entire list, the most extreme action/reaction I could realistically face from my wife (that I can think of) are these:
That she would move out. That she would file for divorce. That she would go into an extreme panic and begin berating me. That she might take our three youngest kids and find a hotel somewhere. That she would twist things to add fuel to her narrative of how I am abusive.

Weary,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions. I did this for myself and had found that my biggest fears, were dealing with the same turmoil that i may actually have to activate myself for my own ultimate emotional protection.

Therefore, if i am willing to to activate the scenario myself, why am i afraid that my self-protective actions within the context of marriage, would cause her to activate the very same scenario. It was an a-ha moment for me a few years back, that highly motivated me to immediately start living and accomplishing (as best/as many possible) my daydream goals.

Again, thanks for answering.

SoT

SonofThunder · September 12, 2021, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: WearyHusband on September 11, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful response, SoT. I will post anything that happens next.
And yes, I stayed entirely calm in the exchanges last night, MChill and noJADE.
I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her.
Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos. Wow, it's astounding how much this motivation comes up in my journey Out of the FOG.
Also, I am considering your analysis about how I responded to her response that she is not safe by contradicting her and telling her that she was, indeed, safe.
Grateful,
WH

Weary, you wrote " I'm struggling to get the courage to go buy that next six pack of beer. I am afraid I'm just being manipulative or playing a game with her. Gosh, I don't want to hurt her and cause her pain, nor cause more chaos."

Looking back at my suggestion, i can see where the next 6 pack may seem like a game and it may push right up against that fine line of protective boundary vs passive-aggressive punishment. At the same time though, her removal of the beer and your adult right to have beer in the fridge and consume in a enjoyment of the craft, in a balanced way, should not be the end result imo.

Therefore, in my home, the next 6 pack would be promptly back in the fridge and since im a bit OCD with my possessions, the label writing would fit well with my style haha. I also enjoy a bit of pushing up against that line and i probably should not, but i want to be truthful here. Im so tired of decades of this BS and my pushing up against lines, just sometimes feels good.

Again, writing names on the labels may be over the top (for you), but i truly believe, for myself in your story, i would explain the next 6 pack and the math of my thinking (5 of 6 of the new beers are my possession) to:

1. express to her that i will honor her rights for herself, her half of joint monies and her desire regarding her choices for herself on alcohol.

2. reverse her wrongful 'taking' and make a truthful point that i will also honor my own rights to house, kids, fridge space and alcohol choices for myself, without encroaching on her rights for herself.

"Hurting her and causing her pain": imo that is her right to feel hurt and pain by you simply reversing what she wrongly did. Putting 6 beers in a refrigerator (yes thats all this is) is not something that causes hurt and pain and is in itself, not chaotic. But if she wants to feel hurt and pain, and turn a 6 pack into chaos, its on her not you.

SoT

SonofThunder · September 12, 2021, 08:16:01 AM

Quote from: square on September 11, 2021, 04:55:30 PM
While I am 100% behind Weary's position, and while the wife's statements were rather loaded, it's not unfair for her to share that she is distressed about the drinking (even if the degree of distress is obviously way out of proportion). I don't think it's fair to expect her to refrain from speaking from her pov and expect her to take on his. The issue lays in the second part, which is refusing to even try to find common ground.

Agree fully that Mrs. Weary should be able to speak her point of view. She should not have to accept his point of view. Imo, the common ground in this story is "we may have to agree to disagree" and that Weary and his wife should respect each others adult/legal rights to home, joint possessions, joint children and other decisions for themselves that are legal, ethical and on their own, not hurtful to the other person.

A 6-pack of beer in the fridge is, on its own, not hurting anything/anyone. Now, if Weary slams all 6 and has a drunk tantrum, that is indeed encroaching on the rights of desired peace by his other family members. But imo, that is applicable to almost anything, because the human is the one that can make any object or action/reaction, a tool for the abuse/rights-abuse of others.

Therefore, in reverse, i believe that Mrs Weary used her choices for herself (regarding alcohol) to abuse Weary's legal and adult right to well-manage and enjoy alcohol.

SoT

bloomie · September 12, 2021, 08:45:24 AM

WearyHusband - been reading through this thread and see such big realizations and forward steps in your life as you stand firm in an honorable way in your sphere of influence, own life, own home.

I wanted to share a resource and want to mention something that has become invaluable for me when faced with disordered behavior and choices of an intimate loved one. These 'choices' are taken from the work of Danny Silk - (will link to resource - just a head's up it is faith based), I can walk myself through these with increasing confidence the more I use them and understand them -

I Can Choose:

To be a powerful person
Love over fear
Connection over disconnection
Respectful communication
Healthy Boundaries

In order to work with these choices I have had to dig deep and begin to understand what each means. For example, I have to learn what it means to me to be a powerful person or what love over fear looks like. Love for myself as well as another.

And then integrate all of this in my decision making process to align with the core values that I hold and live my life from. I would also imagine that this will look differently for each of us. All of our circumstances and experiences are unique. There are commonalities to the challenges we face of course and the validation and insights we bring each other are so helpful, yet at the end of each day you are the only one who will be able to find the right path forward in your relationship with your wife.

Another thing I have learned to consider is to ask: is this productive? So, is this conversation, discussion, action, etc., productive or am I spinning in circles or getting nowhere fast. Am I addressing a problem I see as a 'we' problem and the other party doesn't have a problem? So, then it is actually a 'me' problem and though in intimate relationship it is distressing to realize that I am the only one who may have a problem with, say a lack of physical affection and sexual intimacy, at least I can focus on what to do about this problem and that takes me back to the principles I can choose.

Working with what is... what you can control, choose, change is not always easy to discern. Especially, with the caretaker tendencies you describe, which I can very closely relate to.

Learning to live out your human rights... for example, buying a really nice cooler, filling it with ice, and putting your six pack in it in the garage without asking, arguing, explaining, and not making it a big thing may be an easy, quiet, calm compromise. Or maybe not. I don't know, but I do know that you will figure it out as you are figuring out so many important things!

Here is a link to the YouTube vids that walk through the 5 principles I shared if you are interested and there are other vids that are enriching and have been very helpful for me, but again, I want to mention they are faith based: https://youtu.be/aUOy1_V7FGE

Keep doing the good and deep work you are doing!