Need Help Defining Change

[NBRiverGuy]

My uNPDw and I are trying to work things out. Cliff Notes: After the holidays, I told her that I needed her behavior to change or I was going to move on with my life without her. She has claimed that she will do whatever it takes to save the marriage. She is seeing a therapist. I am seeing a therapist. I began researching personality disorders and realized that she is most likely a vulnerable narcissist.
At my last appointment, my therapist said that if she is a true NPD, I will need to clearly define what change looks like for her. It needs to be something measurable. "Stop commandeering every conversation with stories about your terrible childhood and flying into a rage in public when people 'don't understand' what you went through" is too vague. I want to define things clearly for her, but I don't know how exactly. Anyone have any similar experience? Any advice?

[bloomie]

NBRiverGuy - I think you have been given an important assignment from your T. How wise to take that to heart and begin to better understand how to communicate limits and boundaries clearly. My only thought is it seems like you need to define what change looks like for you.

Something that is really helpful to me is to realize that setting a limit is always about what I am going to do. I have zero control over what another person does. So, if the only thing I can control and change is myself, then how do I communicate around that?

Using your example:

"Stop commandeering every conversation with stories about your terrible childhood and flying into a rage in public when people 'don't understand' what you went through" is too vague.

In a calm moment..."When you fly into a rage in public I feel (whatever you feel - embarrassed, uncomfortable, horrified) and will remove myself from the situation." Here's the kicker with setting boundaries with an emotionally out of control possibly immature person... you have to follow through. Every. Single. Time.

You follow through if it is inconvenient. Calmly.

The core value underneath this boundary might be that you do not remain in a public situation where anyone is raging.

I imagine if your wife is willing to rage in public she rages in private as well. Figuring out what works and does not work for you and what you are going to do about that is important self care and identifying core values for yourself - how your treat others and how you allow others to treat you - is so important because from those values flow your behaviors, responses, and your life and relationships are shaped by your values.

So often we value others over ourselves. And from that we allow mistreatment of us, we stay nearby when another person is out of control emotionally, we get confused about what loyalty and love actually look like.

Learning to value ourselves as we value others has been key for me. I no longer allow myself to be raged at or stay in a situation where someone I love is not managing their emotions respectfully.

I hope this helps. As you begin to define yourself more fully in this relationship I will gently say it may not go over very well at first. Stay the course. If another, who says they love us and will do anything for the marriage, cannot adjust to us having healthy boundaries and limits that is important information for us to have.

Keep coming back and letting us know how you are!

[SonofThunder]

Hi NBRiverGuy,

I am dropping by not to comment on your desires to 'work things out', as there are probably plenty of others here who may take the time to do so. Imo there is already plenty of content here on Out of the FOG for you to glean regarding others who have attempted, are still attempting to do the same.  I'm here to express a different opinion. 

You wrote:

"I told her that I needed her behavior to change or..."

You also wrote:

"...my therapist said...."Stop commandeering every conversation with stories about your terrible childhood and flying into a rage in public when people 'don't understand' what you went through" is too vague. I want to define things clearly for her.."

Imo, what you/your therapist is considering is not a proper boundary unless defining your own action/reaction, not defining what your PDw needs to cease.  Boundaries are all about self-protection, done through the controlling of OUR OWN actions and reactions.  We cannot control the actions/reactions of another adult human. 

Question for you:  If you were to try and control your wife's actions/reactions, how many times does it take for her to fail on your request before you ____________.? (your own action/reaction). If the answer is 1 time, then how about when she does it again?.. and a third, fourth and so on?  Are you willing to do this action/reaction for the rest of your married life?  PD's will surely test your loyalty to yourself, if you vocalize a proper boundary in advance. I learned in my own experiences, that explaining my proper boundaries in advance was handing my PD's my war plans and they utilized it in increased abuse to see how thick my skin is and how steeled by backbone is to my own boundaries.  Therefore, I stopped expressing my boundaries, but only put my boundaries into action when self-protection was needed (no announcement).  Also, in my experience with multiple PD's in different roles (parent/spouse) they never change, because they are underdeveloped.

Therefore, using your example, you could say (to yourself only) in a proper boundary. 

"Every time my uPDw commandeers a conversation with stories about her terrible childhood and/or flying into a rage in public, I will walk away to remove myself from that conversation". 

Again, how many times will you do this?  Also, you may need to create a series of additional boundaries just to protect yourself from the impacts of your first boundary of walking away from her midstream commandeering. #noJADE is the toolbox rule, but it can trigger other abuses in the aftermath and they pile up like wind-driven waves.   

SoT

[SonofThunder]

NBRiverGuy - I think you have been given an important assignment from your T. How wise to take that to heart and begin to better understand how to communicate limits and boundaries clearly. My only thought is it seems like you need to define what change looks like for you.

Something that is really helpful to me is to realize that setting a limit is always about what I am going to do. I have zero control over what another person does. So, if the only thing I can control and change is myself, then how do I communicate around that?

Using your example:

"Stop commandeering every conversation with stories about your terrible childhood and flying into a rage in public when people 'don't understand' what you went through" is too vague.

In a calm moment..."When you fly into a rage in public I feel (whatever you feel - embarrassed, uncomfortable, horrified) and will remove myself from the situation." Here's the kicker with setting boundaries with an emotionally out of control possibly immature person... you have to follow through. Every. Single. Time.

You follow through if it is inconvenient. Calmly.

The core value underneath this boundary might be that you do not remain in a public situation where anyone is raging.

I imagine if your wife is willing to rage in public she rages in private as well. Figuring out what works and does not work for you and what you are going to do about that is important self care and identifying core values for yourself - how your treat others and how you allow others to treat you - is so important because from those values flow your behaviors, responses, and your life and relationships are shaped by your values.

So often we value others over ourselves. And from that we allow mistreatment of us, we stay nearby when another person is out of control emotionally, we get confused about what loyalty and love actually look like.

Learning to value ourselves as we value others has been key for me. I no longer allow myself to be raged at or stay in a situation where someone I love is not managing their emotions respectfully.

I hope this helps. As you begin to define yourself more fully in this relationship I will gently say it may not go over very well at first. Stay the course. If another, who says they love us and will do anything for the marriage, cannot adjust to us having healthy boundaries and limits that is important information for us to have.

Keep coming back and letting us know how you are!

+1

[NBRiverGuy]

Thank you both for your insights. You are so right. I am brand new to therapy and have only attended one session so far (which was very uncomfortable for me). It took me a few days to process many of the things that the therapist was trying to help me see for myself, and one was that I have taken ownership of my wife's public behavior which has caused me a great deal of shame over the years.
Bloomie: The therapist mentioned that she likely rages at home as well, but because I am not publicly humiliated by it, I have learned to accept it, which is not good. You are right that I "value others over myself" and part of that is that when my wife creates palpable tension in a group dynamic, I am so concerned with how she is making others feel that I don't process how I am feeling until long after the fact. That feeling is inevitably embarrassment which has gotten buried deep down over time in the form of shame. I now see that the therapist was nudging me towards the revelation that I can only take responsibility for my own actions.
SonofThunder: Therapist said that I repeated several times during the session that I needed her behavior to change. That is when he asked me what that change looked like to me. I was dumbfounded because I never formed a tangible thought in that way. I have just vaguely thought, "Stop causing a scene." That's when he said that I needed to be able to clearly define that change for myself. I'm sure that he is leading up to your questions about "how many times will I allow her to backslide/what is my timeline?"
Again. Thank you both. You have given me a great deal to consider.

[NBRiverGuy]

we get confused about what loyalty and love actually look like.

That is so interesting that you mention the word "loyalty". Therapist asked me what I valued in marriage and I said, "loyalty...probably to a fault," and I sort of laughed. He did not laugh at all. Instead, he asked, "Loyalty to yourself? Loyalty to your partner? Loyalty to the institution of marriage? Where do your loyalties lie in this marriage? That is something that you need to figure out."   

[square]

I gotta scratch my head at the idea that the therapist thinks getting really, really specific with someone with narcissistic traits is the key.

You know what narcissists do when you try to tell them very specifically what they need to change?

"Well, you never said anything about THAT!!"

"I wouldn't have to X if you didn't Y!"

"I've done EVERYTHING you've asked for and nothing is ever enough for you!"

"You're not perfect either!"

And on and on. Having some perfectly worded contract is not going to help a thing. In fact, the more specific, the more weaponized it will be.

It's true, boundaries are for you. Decide how you will respond to various toxic and problematic behaviors. The goal of your responses is to disengage, refuse to participate, physically leave the area if necessary.

For lesser situations, medium chill and gray rock responses like "I see," "that's too bad," and other emotionally disengaged reactions can help. But the goal really is not trying to change her, just you - to be less involved in her drama.

[NBRiverGuy]

Square- I appreciate what you're saying. Upon reflection, it is becoming more clear that he is trying to help me define what "acceptable change" looks like to me. He has not said that I should have that conversation with her yet. Just that I need to be able to articulate it. Also, keep in mind that my wife is undiagnosed and he is basing everything off of what I told him during one session after I expressed my desire to make the marriage work. I'm definitely practicing MC right now.

[square]

One idea is to maybe focus on your feelings rather than her behavior. That idea is not foolproof, but it can be a good guide.

What that could look like might include:

I feel like I can be myself
I feel safe
I don't live with dread, fear, or shame
I like being at home
Etc

[NBRiverGuy]

One idea is to maybe focus on your feelings rather than her behavior. That idea is not foolproof, but it can be a good guide.

What that could look like might include:

I feel like I can be myself
I feel safe
I don't live with dread, fear, or shame
I like being at home
Etc

Again. Thank you. I am beginning to realize that I have been spending way too much energy worrying about what her next episode is going to look like and trying to intervene before it happens. I have been doing so many things wrong, but I am learning.

[bloomie]

Again. Thank you. I am beginning to realize that I have been spending way too much energy worrying about what her next episode is going to look like and trying to intervene before it happens. I have been doing so many things wrong, but I am learning.

NBRiverGuy - what flips us upside down is that much of the instinctual, sacrificial behaviors we show might be fine in an intimate relationship with a reasonably mature, healthy person. It is that we are possibly dealing with someone who is at the very least emotionally, relationally immature and often opportunistic.

In my own experiences, those who are emotionally immature are looking outside of themselves to us, or the world at large, hence the raging at people for not understanding, to carry and care for their feelings which they have never learned to manage.

So, we wait for the next trigger and emotional outburst, finger to the wind, shoulders hunched up to our ears in hyper vigilance. Then we 'take' on managing both the emotions and the fall out to relationships that are not ours.

When you begin to determine where you end and where she begins, very clearly, it will help you build internal and external boundaries around what is yours to do.

It is love to step away from taking on the emotional work of another person. It is love to give them space to feel their feelings and experience the consequences of not managing them well. It is love to recognize that the best possible chance your relationship has of evolving into something healthy, affirming and life giving to you both is for you to continue the important work you are doing and to prioritize your own health and well being. And with all the hope within me I hope your wife begins to see growing peace and strength within you, health and resilience and is inspired to continue her own journey of healing and growth.

You are not doing things wrong. You are in an extremely complex and painful circumstances and are bravely doing the hard work to understand and grow. Stay the course!

[NBRiverGuy]

bloomie - You have no idea how much I appreciate your support. My family and friends are supportive, but I have a hard time reaching out to them, probably due to the years of shame and guilt that I am now working on. I wrote your definitions of love on a sticky note and put them in my wallet to remind myself what real love looks like and hopefully internalize it.

[MaxedOut]

You know what narcissists do when you try to tell them very specifically what they need to change?

"Well, you never said anything about THAT!!"

"I wouldn't have to X if you didn't Y!"

"I've done EVERYTHING you've asked for and nothing is ever enough for you!"

"You're not perfect either!"

And on and on. Having some perfectly worded contract is not going to help a thing. In fact, the more specific, the more weaponized it will be.

 

After an incident Monday/Tuesday with my SO when I actually said I wasn't sure where I am about our marriage. I said we could talk Saturday. That was followed by a med overdose out of town and me coming to her. Then repeat asks to talk sooner. I actually called things abusive, got pretty raw about it all, and made some specific examples.

It was not intended to be a limit list, but she wrote some things I mentioned down as what "she'd work on" (don't throw things at me, don't slam doors). A day or two later I start getting the snarky "I'm not throwing that at you" when tossing something off the couch.

Then new behaviors when angry like dumping a bunch of stuff out of the closet in my office and leaving it on the floor. And crumpling thing I use to signal do not disturb while working. In other words, the specificity she kept asking for (when I hadn't really had time to think through things) just led to malicious compliance when she did get angry. Yesterday she stepped on my foot in a way that felt very sorry-not-sorry. And today, slamming a door.

We did have a follow up talk that was more on the "I won't tolerate x. When that happens or I feel uncomfortable I will be removing myself from the situation."

Reaching out helps NBRiverGuy. Think about support as a lot of different things. Sometimes it's someone you can talk about the tough issues with. Sometimes it's more buddy-time where you can feel the care but be in a different part of you brain. Sometimes it is just being around people and being your authentic self, without all the cautious editing. Or periodic funny texts. These all can help.

[sunshine702]

Not all therapists "get" Narcissistic Abuse.  I am going to quote Dr Ramani - Certain therapists will tell you to continue to put air in the tires when the problem is a crack in the engine block".

Do you thinks the Therapist really understands? I know it's tough to know after one session and it certainly left you a lot to consider which is good.! But if you feel this is an air in the tires solution — treat it like speed dating and maybe switch. 

My thoughts.  You know you best.
Trust us - I understand the shame and pain in being around those situations.  The time my mother folded up like a camel and refused to walk!!