When one has worked through all/most of the layers of anger and resentment, and has little desire to have any further contact with someone who has demonstrated repeatedly and for decades their contempt for and resentment of you ... Is forgiveness necessary, and how does one even do it? I'm stuck between what I feel is needed to find my own peace and at a complete loss how to even do it.
I don't wish mother ill, in spite of all she's subjected me to, all the chaos and pain she caused. It is what it is and I've chosen to remove myself from it. She's in her 80s and has isolated herself to the point where I honestly am not sure she has any human interaction other than when my brother stops by periodically. She seemed to derive sick joy out of others' misfortune and pain, gleefully threw herself into the middle of any situation where she could further twist a knife. I find she has few redeeming qualities and nothing draws me to her. In many ways it's as if she's already gone from this world, if in fact she ever truly joined it.
Thing for me is, how can I be forgiven my own failings if I can't find it in me to forgive her? What does forgiveness even look like?? There's not a chance I'd call or visit to tell her I've forgiven her - one of two things would occur. I see a massive dramafest and meltdown that I dared suggest she's done anything for which she needs forgiveness OR her interpretation of forgiveness that she has a clean slate to "start over." No. There's no starting over with her - I can move forward without her, but not *with* her. My need to find forgiveness isn't dependent on reconciliation or trying to build some superficial relationship only meant to crash and burn the instant she feels comfortable. We tried that, multiple times, so no.
Does any of this make sense or maybe y'all can help guide me through?
QuoteWhen one has worked through all/most of the layers of anger and resentment, and has little desire to have any further contact with someone who has demonstrated repeatedly and for decades their contempt for and resentment of you ... Is forgiveness necessary, and how does one even do it?
When one has worked through the layers of anger and resentment, forgiveness has already occurred. Look it up:
- to stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
- to cease to feel resentment against
The opposite of hate, we say, insn't love but indifference. The opposite of ongoing resentment is forgiveness. We often think that forgiveness means telling the person they are forgiven, or changing our behavior towards them
as though nothing had happened. Not at all. Not being angry and resentful is not at all synonymous with being trusting and vulnerable.
I've told my wife that if I had a deathbed conversation with my MIL, I'd tell her "It's OK. You did a lot of good in your life. Nothing takes your goodness from you. Not even your worst mistakes. So you can let go, knowing you [did blah blah blah well]." A lot of us think that act is forgiveness. Or joining them at Thanksgiving is forgiveness. Or that resuming contact, or writing a Very Special Letter is forgiveness. It is none of that.
If you are about done digging through the layers of anger and resentment, it is time to absolve yourself, too. There is no box left to check.
Wow. How could I not have grasped such a simple concept?? All this time I've thought there was something left undone, something I must do. I've been feeling flat and empty, and honestly now I've come to believe that's the absence of all that I carried around with me for so long. All that anger and pain and torment, those Great Walls of defense against her rages, the weight of her judgments and knowing I'd never possibly measure up. That's not what she wanted - she wanted to be free of me. [I would imagine she also feels rather flat right about now - she is finally free.] I have no idea what I want, it was simply never allowed.
So now I'm learning what *I* want and it's slow. It's so very new for me. I truly am the only thing holding me back.
Thx, Starboard. More than you know.
Quote from: moglow on January 10, 2023, 03:21:26 PM
That's not what she wanted - she wanted to be free of me.
For what it is worth, I doubt that's what she wanted. If it were, she'd be much happier now. I say it because, well, it seems awful to think that anyone would just want to be shut of us.
Is it possible she wanted was drama? That she wanted, inspired, and fed off of drama?
She absolutely wanted, demanded drama, created it at every opportunity. The "who" or what was immaterial to her. I've believed for some time I was not wanted and have seen little evidence to the contrary. A great many of her resentments were laid at my feet, things over which I had little input or control. Whether jealousy or whatever drove her, it does seem awful that a mother would seeming feel so little for her own child[ren]. Yet here we are.
My personal failure in that situation was insisting that I be seen or heard, trying to find positives and some way to continue a relationship with her. I spent a very long time doing just those things. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing and expecting different results. I'm seeking sanity.
This is a great conversation and I would like to add to it - from a Catholic perspective since we are in the Religious/Spiritual Discussion.
My priest described forgiveness as a softening of the heart of the forgiver - not forgetting, reconciling, reuniting - but for yourself. I was taught forgiveness was for you - not the trespasser. You can't change their action or past behavior. But you can forgive them and in that process let go of the anger and hardness in your heart. Do you put yourself back in harms way - no. But you stop carrying the burden.
Over the holiday I stood on the beach and said the following words "I release you with the love that I am and the love that I have. I release you because what is mine will always be and what is not will never be - either way I will be ok. More than okay. I will be joy. I will be bliss. I will be a beautifully enlightening soul with or without you." Ostensibly it was to said to forgive my ex and my adult DDs. In the end as I repeated the prayer, it was to forgive myself
What Starboard said!
That flat, empty feeling might just be the beginnings of peace. It's unfamiliar territory to me too, if I'm honest. But when your peace and security is stronger than the fear and anger, then you can forgive and let that go.
The last step being to release yourself rings true to me. I'm used to working on my trauma and dealing with the flashbacks etc. I imagine it is a danger, to identify with it. My anger and resentment and grief is part of that "survivor" package. Would I be even willing to let that all go when the time comes, and just BE?
Hi Moglow - yes, what you say makes perfect sense! And since this is in the religious/spiritual section, I would like to, if I may, answer your question re forgiveness from the biblical viewpoint.
The Greek word in the Bible that is translated 'forgive', literally means 'to let go' - like when a person does not demand payment of debt. So when we forgive someone, we're letting go of any resentment we have toward them, and we're also not necessarily expecting any repair to the damaged relationship. So the forgiveness is mostly for your benefit, not just your mother's.
It doesn't mean that you'll forget everything that was done against you, and It also does not mean you're sticking your head in the sand, pretending she never hurt you. And it certainly does not mean that you condone her taking advantage of you/walking all over you.
But what forgiveness does mean is that you're letting go of all your anger and resentment (for your own mental and physical wellbeing). And though you may not be able to change your mother, and your relationship, she is ultimately responsible before God for the way she speaks and behaves...
So you don't necessarily have to tell her in a sweeping statement that you forgive her. It will be something you do, maybe every time she riles you, or says something spiteful. You recognise that, at her age, it is unlikely she will change, and you just have to forgive/reset your mind after every single interaction. (Matthew 18:21,22 says: "Then Peter came and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not up to seven times, but up to 77 times.")
To be honest, I'm wondering what your mother's relationship with her mother and father were like, in order for her to be like this. Or maybe that's just the way she is. But I do admire you for not wishing ill of her, and trying to think things through.
You know the full extent of her resentment/contempt to you, so you might judge that it is better to stay away, to protect yourself. (No abuse victim would willingly go back to their abuser, especially an unrepentant one; there are degrees of abuse, but it's all still abuse...) Or you might just decide to keep conversations light/neutral. Or if she makes a cutting remark, you could say that really hurt you, and if she keeps on, you will leave... You have to decide what would work best for you.
Anyway, I wish you all the best for working through this, and I hope you find some reconciliation - not necessarily with your mother, but that you reconcile things for yourself too.
I am not angry or resentful of poison ivy. It is forgiven.
But I don't touch it.
Quote from: JustKeepTryingMy priest described forgiveness as a softening of the heart of the forgiver - not forgetting, reconciling, reuniting - but for yourself. I was taught forgiveness was for you - not the trespasser. You can't change their action or past behavior. But you can forgive them and in that process let go of the anger and hardness in your heart. Do you put yourself back in harms way - no. But you stop carrying the burden.
This speaks to me too - thank you for sharing! So many of our clergy, priests, pastors etc -and obviously countless lay people!- over the years have preached forgiveness as forgive and forget, which to me just throws the wounded back under that same yoke. I've *done* all that all my life, and it just served to deepen the damage. No sooner would I turn my back on one incident trying to put it in the past, than she manufactured another even bigger and better than the last. My head was swimming with it all and I never seemed to find level ground for long. Closing myself off from her has been my salvation but the healing is slow.
Quote from: SignificantOther1798The Greek word in the Bible that is translated 'forgive', literally means 'to let go' - like when a person does not demand payment of debt. So when we forgive someone, we're letting go of any resentment we have toward them, and we're also not necessarily expecting any repair to the damaged relationship.
Thank you! That reiterates what Starboard shared above, and I appreciate the reinforcements! As to your question - mother was the youngest of her family, the protected darling who no one dared correct or contradict. It doesn't sound like she had any rules or boundaries and no one crossed her. She ran over the entire family and everyone around her from what I've been told, was a true bully from way back.
Call me Cordelia - none of this crap is easy, is it?? There's not a doubt in my mind there are countless people out there who wonder "who the hell does she think she is to treat people that way?!" Being a survivor is tough work - I am finding the less contact I have with her, the finer my peace becomes.
Quote from: StarboardSongI am not angry or resentful of poison ivy. It is forgiven.
But I don't touch it.
Singing that louder in my head now!
Moglow - I believe that there has long been a fundamental misinterpretation of the Biblical instruction to forgive. And it has done incredible damage. We have the most beautiful example of the forgiveness process in Christ's forgiveness of us. It requires two to be complete in my understanding.
I don't believe I can grant forgiveness without there ever having been an acknowledgment of wrongs done against me and contrition for those things. I do believe that it is my responsibility to remove even a hint of bitterness and ill will toward others. To be willing and ready to forgive. To give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge. To release the debt owed me to God and to then manage my heart and mind toward that person in a way that pleases and honors God above all else and keeps in mind all I have been forgiven of.
For most of us, this forgiveness process will never be complete in this life. There is sorrow and even uncertainty in it all because we are meant to live in unity and love with one another. It is impossible to do that with some, but it is possible to live with a clean heart and mind toward others. That is what I see as my part in the process.
I often hear that forgiveness is for us and I don't disagree with the incredible release that comes when we give the burden of the debt owed to us that we have been carrying to God. For me, this is a very personally held belief, forgiveness is out of love and obedience to God and for God above all else. Without that, I don't believe I would have the strength to do it - my sense of justice would takeover. :upsidedown:
Sending you so much peace as you settle into a new season with your mother. You are a fine and generous person. Filled with love and light. Thank you for your vulnerability and for starting this conversation.
Love all that everyone has shared and appreciate it so much! Very timely for me as well.
Mo, please please please consider reading one my favorite books: The Book of Joy.
It is listed in the Resources / Books pages here. It is a conversation with Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama. These are people with a great deal of reason to hate and resent. But they truly don't. Their answers, about why and how they don't-hate are very different from each other, reflecting both their different lives and different faiths.
This book is all about finding peace in a scarred world.
Quote from: BloomieI don't believe I can grant forgiveness without there ever having been an acknowledgment of wrongs done against me and contrition for those things.
Bloomie, maybe this is where I get stuck. It feels unfinished somehow - I do feel it's on me, even knowing good and well there's nothing coming from her. There's not one hope mother will magically have an epiphany and openly apologize or even acknowledge any deliberate harm she's inflicted. The "conversations" regarding our relationship were one after another of her spewing how I'd somehow done her wrong, let her down, not fulfilled her idea of what she was due. She's completely incapable of self reflection except as and where it benefits her image.
Thank you for your kindness and the compliments - they help so much. I'm like a sponge soaking up all y'all have to offer!
I think forgiveness -- the letting go of resentments and anger, but neither the foolish lowering of our guard nor the forgetting of important experience -- is a gift to ourselves that pays dividends to everyone who knows us, for it makes us kinder and more gracious people. It makes us more capable people, I believe. And it is a terrible shame to deny ourselves and our communities that grace and strength for lack of restitution, or acknowledgment, or understanding.
This isn't just about our PDs. Turn on the TV. Walk around town. There are tons of things to be angry about and resent every day. And most of the antagonists will never acknowledge or understand, much less make restitution. At our bests, we can see the lack of righteousness and regret it without anger and resentment, We can at our best do this for the guy who cuts us off in traffic. For the rude person at work. For the angry customer in line. For the criminal who murdered my uncle. For the ex-spouse. And yes, for our PDs.
I don't mean to chastise those who find this hard or impossible, but I do mean to hold it up as a plausible something to aspire to and to practice.
Jesus didn't walk around grousing about all those damned pharisee's and their bullshit, but neither did he roll over in their presence. There is a special strength -- the awesome power of righteousness -- that one perceives in a person who moves with force and confidence but without lingering resentments. That's what I think we should all shoot for.
Quote from: bloomie on January 11, 2023, 11:47:33 AMTo give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge.
...to then manage my heart and mind toward that person in a way that pleases and honors God above all else and keeps in mind all I have been forgiven of.
Moglow,
I will throw my loose change into the collection plate of feedback to your post. My acceptance and understanding of forgiveness, is that it is a tool-gift, given to us, in order to (as bloomie well wrote) "
give all of the hurt and angst into God's hands to manage and judge."
My ability to utilize that tool is a self-relieving, potentially-healing, source of emotional and therefore physical therapy for me. Its also a source of my worship of my creator God. I am both recognizing, honoring and obeying when I cast my cares upon the rightful, all-knowing, loving and managing judge.
As bloomie also well said, I believe its a 24/7 two way street with a living example, gift and result. First the example; an act of forgiveness demonstrated and taught by God toward mankind; a constant reminder (and also limiting throttle of my actions/reactions), in which I received the benefit of God's forgiveness. Second, the gift from God of the tool of forgiveness, given to me in order to utilize in accordance with the way Christ demonstrated. Third, my actual utilization of the tool in presenting my "
hurt and angst" here on Earth back up the street for God to handle, as he well instructed, and as he has proven capable.
Therefore, I believe the self-relieving, potentially-healing, therapeutic benefit that I receive from using the tool in continuous presenting (giving away) my hurts to God, is actually a positive byproduct of forgiveness, in which I so thankfully receive.
Nowhere in my above beliefs did I mention the person who has caused me "
hurt and angst". Im not an elected judge to other adult humans, but I am to use wise judgement in making my own decisions. I am also not in the business of pardoning. I do not believe forgiveness and pardoning are connected. I will forgive (give my hurt and angst to God to handle), but I will not pardon the unpardonable, intentional acts of manipulation, control, emotional and therefore physical acts of abuse that were done to me and others I know.
I believe God (who imo is the judge), IS in the pardoning business, and I'm SO glad he is, and not me! If a perpetrator of "
hurt and angst" desires some emotional relief or a pardon, they can ask the judge, not me. The judge has already dictated the rules for pardon's imo, and that is faith in the gift of Christ's work on the cross and then afterward, heartfelt, best human attempts at obedience to Christ's teaching and also their heartfelt use of the forgiveness tool, aiding in a continuously developing, improving heart-fire of good. I believe a way for me to possibly understand if there's been a heart-changing fire in the fireplace of a past perpetrator, is to observe the smoke that rises out the chimney. Christ's smoke is that wonderful smelling white smoke of pure hardwoods in the fireplace. But the continuing black, foul, dangerous smoke I witness from some who claim to have changed, tells me all I need to know.
If the perpetrator of "hurt and angst" truly decides to accept Christ's gift, then they may also experience the pardon that I have already received from the judge, and also the potentially life-altering gifts of that accepting decision, which may assist to redirect that person to cease perpetrating "hurt and angst" on their targets; causing that fire to burn from a different fuel-source.
Full circle, I believe forgiveness is between me and God, and I reap the glorious byproduct benefits. It also serves as another method of my growing relationship with my creator, through the conversations and my faith and trust in him. Therefore imo, forgiveness requires zero contact with the perpetrator. Therefore also, the perpetrator may be deceased or remain nc, the latter of which upholds a necessary protective boundary for me.
SoT
Another seed of a thought. On the cross, Our Lord prayed: "Father, forgive them." (Luke 23:34)
He put the whole question in the hands of God the Father. He was God Himself, and there are many examples in the Gospels of Jesus offering forgiveness without this explicit reference to the Father.
But on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!
And yes, that can be a process too. We may have to choose forgiveness more than once. We may grab for that familiar hurt and angst to make ourselves feel comfortably righteous. And then we can laugh at ourselves and ask the Father to forgive us, again.
QuoteBut on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!
I'd not thought of it that way - He didn't address the perpetrators directly. It's beyond His -and obviously, our- power.
Just reading back through this today - thank all of you for addressing my questions so clearly.
Quote from: moglow on January 16, 2023, 05:52:22 PM
QuoteBut on the cross, which was the most direct and terrible sin against Jesus Himself, He does not forgive directly. He doesn't say it to the unrepentant perpetrators, who are right in front of Him. I think this is important. And what an example for us! If we are asking the Father to forgive anyone, then we are desiring union with them in God the Father. We are in fact desiring reconciliation, but also recognizing that it is beyond our power. Even putting it in the Father's hands is taking it out of ours. It's letting go. It is forgiveness!
I'd not thought of it that way - He didn't address the perpetrators directly. It's beyond His -and obviously, our- power.
Just reading back through this today - thank all of you for addressing my questions so clearly.
To CMC's insightful reply, I would quote the same portion as you MoGlow.
Imo, Jesus had to willfully experience separation from the father in order to take the sins of past and future sins of the world, to the depths of dark-death and conquer since once and for all. Jesus' separation from the father is that crying out experience of his, yet he had been silent as a lamb to the slaughter in the incredible torture, which both highlights just how terrible separation from the father is, and also in contrast teaches how wonderful it is to be connected with the father through Christ, therefore like Christ. Both ways he's my hero.
I say this because as CMC stated and you agreed, Jesus, in this separated experience on the cross, turns to the father for the forgiveness of others. Therefore, like Jesus, forgiveness of others is between us and God, and has nothing to do with the perpetrator(s). It also allows us to use the provided gift-tool of forgiveness with someone who is deceased or one which we are fully NC.
Imo, perps who ask for forgiveness are seeking pardons from their victims, which is a selfish move imo, and like me, its God the father they should be addressing, as im not in the business of forgiving or pardons, as that's God's specialty.
Sure, I may hear an apology, but with PD's that is simply them going through the motion of trying to erase their vulgar behaviors off my chalkboard to make themselves feel better, and also provide themselves a clean slate to start scribbling the next terrible episode.
Forgiveness is me releasing my own harboring, which in itself, harboring is self-depleting of my energies and mental health, and turning my "hurt and angst" to the Father who can do what he pleases with the perp. I gain benefit in my giving away.
SoT
the "unsinkable" movie that I posted about in "Working on Us" also talks about forgiveness
one woman saw her dad murder her mom in front of her......I think when she was a teen
she struggled for 20 yrs over that!
she talks about how she forgave her dad
she has a very specific way to forgive that anyone could do
it's worth watching the movie just to hear that
Jolie thank you. I finally watched Unsinkable and it reaffirmed some things for me, pointed out others i'd not thought of. The specific ways to address forgiveness will help, practical actions that I can focus on and work through.
I think this is a really interesting thread. Thank you for starting it moglow.
I was brought up within the Church of England but I have not looked at the topic until now since any faith I might have had is not with me right now. That said, I am familiar with Christian teachings and do not disagree with the general principles.
I'm not struggling with forgiveness as a topic at the moment and I don't know if I will. But since starting therapy I have noticed a marked difference in my feelings towards my uNPD mother. Early on, my therapist asked if I might be prepared to consider the possibility that my mother had done her best. A rubbish best, yes, nobody is denying that. She was not asking me this in a gaslight-y "she's your motherrrr" kind of way. Just pointing out something I might want to think about at some point. At the time I said my logical brain could accept that she might have done her best. My emotional brain was not prepared to entertain that thought. I needed to hold onto my anger at her because I saw it as a protection. If I was angry and unforgiving then she would not be able to wheedle her way through my defences. I have a very long way to go, but already I am finding at times that I can emotionally accept her limitations in a way that was unthinkable before. As I start to learn how to love and protect myself her power diminishes.
I don't want vengeance (I am quite happy for that to rest with the Lord, and always have been), I don't want redress, I don't want an apology. I'd really just like her out of my head; out of my conscious thoughts which will not happen until after she dies, I'm sure as I am in contact with her, but mainly out of my unconscious thoughts and my awful emotional reactions. Therapy is helping with that aspect. The posts about Jesus asking God to forgive the perps therefore speak deeply to me despite being based on a religion I no longer follow. After reading this thread I am encouraged. I think maybe I am on the way towards forgiveness.
QuoteEarly on, my therapist asked if I might be prepared to consider the possibility that my mother had done her best. A rubbish best, yes, nobody is denying that. She was not asking me this in a gaslight-y "she's your motherrrr" kind of way. Just pointing out something I might want to think about at some point. At the time I said my logical brain could accept that she might have done her best. My emotional brain was not prepared to entertain that thought. I needed to hold onto my anger at her because I saw it as a protection. If I was angry and unforgiving then she would not be able to wheedle her way through my defences. I have a very long way to go, but already I am finding at times that I can emotionally accept her limitations in a way that was unthinkable before. As I start to learn how to love and protect myself her power diminishes.
This is familiar to me - my gripe with "that line of thinking" was that yes, she may very well have done her best, gave it what she had to give. That said, as the parent, the mother, she took on obligations and failed miserably in all but the most basic of those responsibilities. We survived. However "best" she may have presented it was superficial and very limited, this woman raised four children. Angrily. Resentfully. Grudgingly. My resentment as it were, is that she had choices and fairly consistently made poor ones. She tried to erase her own children, and truth be told she still does. We were way behind when it came to relationships, trust, love, even basic kindness and compassion. She didn't have it to give so we never really learned those things at home and were left floundering for many years. We were left instead to find our own way in many ways. I do resent that, even while I know that had we been coddled we wouldn't be who we are.
Like you, being angry and resentful protects [protected] me too, made me keep safe distance from her until I was more stable. I know on the most basic level now just how limited she truly is and I accommodate for my own well being. I still don't want to hear anyone excuse her, that's rubbing salt in an old wound for me because I know all that. I made different choices and in some ways resent that she never even tried to change things for herself and thereby for her family. Mother gave up, walked away, shrugged it all off as nothing. THAT is hard for me to swallow, from my own mother.
Moglow,
I went through what you are going through with my father. Man, one of the most difficult things I've ever encountered in this life because he nearly destroyed me in every area of my life. I always found forgiveness to come easy where others were concerned, but NOT my father. However, I knew it was imperative to find a way to forgive him to move on and be happy and healthy in my life. I could no longer afford to be controlled by the thoughts of what he did to me. Somehow it had to be easier to forgive than to live with the tapes playing over and over in my mind of the things he did. I felt like I was drowning. I needed to find a way to release him to release myself.
Unfortunately, ministers stand in their pulpits a lot of times and flippantly make us feel like we are bad people by saying, "Just forgive." It's easy to forgive someone who did some minor trespass like stole your lunch at school. But, someone who has spent a lifetime trampling on you and deliberately hurting you takes it to another level. Not nearly as easy.
I have learned that forgiveness is more an act of will than a state of mind. It seemed impossible to forgive him in my mind. I couldn't seem to do it. But, I heard from a minister that even though you want to forgive and it doesn't seem to be happening, you must start praying for that person. Simple kind prayers, and that brings forth compassion in your mind. Even though it takes effort and is hard to do for someone who hurt us so deeply, it's difficult to pray for someone and be angry and resentful towards them at the same time. The Bible reminds us to bless those who curse us. When we pray for someone it shifts our mind and emotions. As we do, it becomes easier, and the angst seems to slip a little more into the background each time.
The next thing that has helped me was to say their name out loud and say "I forgive my mother, father, etc." Even though you don't feel it, say it out loud several times a day until it begins to become reality. When you speak this out loud, your brain hears the message and that message will become stronger. More or less speak it into existence even though the feelings aren't there. It is an act of obedience. Eventually the message will sink into your mind. It is very much a long drawn out process.
The other thing is, is don't confuse forgiveness with forgetting and reconciliation. Chances are, we will never get an apology from these people. I think that is what we are always longing for so we can forgive them. Most likely it will never happen and a lot of times reconciliation isn't possible. We can forgive, but we should never forget. We need to remember so we stay vigilant and protect ourselves.
These formulas worked for me after years and years of not being able to get past and forgive my father because the things he did were grievous. I've told a couple friends in our situations these applications and they couldn't believe how well it worked for them. Each said it took time, but in the end they got the relief they were looking for, and came to a place of peace.
Be patient with yourself and continue to do these things until your feelings match your acts of will. I promise, you will get there. We may never fully get over what they did to us. Another minister said to me, "You may never totally get over it, some days will be better than others, and sometimes we can get triggered. Expect that, so you don't get caught off guard. Understand the next day will be better. That is part of the human condition. However, I have come to a place of forgiveness and peace. It takes some work, but it is well worth the journey. Forgiveness does not excuse their behavior, rather it releases the burden from us so we can live a happy, healthy, productive life. It sounds like it's time for you to let go and let God keep score. Take care. I wish you the best. Hugs, Adria
QuoteThe next thing that has helped me was to say their name out loud and say "I forgive my mother, father, etc." Even though you don't feel it, say it out loud several times a day until it begins to become reality. When you speak this out loud, your brain hears the message and that message will become stronger. More or less speak it into existence even though the feelings aren't there. It is an act of obedience. Eventually the message will sink into your mind.
Thank you, Adria! I very much believe in speaking things into existence - I see it happen around me every day in all kinds of circumstances, so this speaks to me. Jolie40 has recently recommended the movie Unsinkable and I finally gathered my brain to watch [most of] it. One of the forgiveness exercises someone used was very similar to what you suggest here. Like a pro/con list, on one side she wrote "you did/said xyz..." in the other column she wrote specifically "I can forgive you." It's a deliberate intentional facing what happened, calling it what it is, and reaffirming I can forgive you for this. I can see where I'd need to do that over and over, as things come up or are triggered at random.
I'm finding peace in the severely limited contact with md, where I make holiday calls only. I feel for her, she has to be struggling with basic daily chores and possibly self care. But to insert myself where she's made it so clear I'm not wanted? Set aside time for weekly visits or some such? Her pride won't let her ask for help, and I'm not one to push in. Plus, honestly, I have no desire to be around her at all. It sounds selfish even in my own head, refusing to go there, but I just don't see the good for either of us in that situation.
As a Christian my idea of what the Bible calls forgiveness is that nothing is owed. The Bill or debt has been settled.
If we are talking about something simple like a business transaction it might look like you not expecting anything more from a landscaper who got injured and he cannot finish his seasonal contract with you. You forgive him. It's over, forgiven. The transactions is complete with no further expectations.
When I apply this to messier situations it becomes easier to forgive. It narrows what forgiveness is into a doable thing for me.
I still have memories and feelings/emotions toward a person but consider the business between us complete. I need no "closure" because my choice to close the books and have no further expectations is the closure.
Where this simplification gets difficult is when you still need to interact with someone. I think the trick for me there is to sub compartmentalize things. I forgive and have no further expectations in a given area. But close the books so as to not expose myself to furtyer abuse.
If you find it impossible to adjust a relationship so far t is safe and that forgiveness works toward it being healthy, ie if there is constant reference and added abuses, then that needs to inform a decision as to whether to stay in or discontinue that relationship.
For me forgiveness never means staying and taking abuse by a non repentant person.
1foot, thank you! It helps so much to have people boil it down to the bones, put it in easier terms regardless of the messy emotional stuff. It really is that uncomplicated when I get right down to it. I'm the one who thought and read so much into what I was "supposed to" do or be. Mother demanded all while giving little, and it never made sense.
Now I see she really didn't have it in her but also saw as her due that everyone center to her. It's telling that she has no long time or lifetime friends. Zero. Never did that I remember. And didn't see the need with her own family either. Sad.
I've deeply minimized contact with mother now, havent seen her in a few years and any conversation is limited and sporadic at best. I'm finally okay with that - it's so much better than me sitting there while she spewed venom and negativity all over me. Accepting that's who SHE is and what she chose, not my stuff? Immeasurable relief and peace, and I really wish I'd hit this point decades ago.
As y'all have pointed out, I think this is what forgiveness really is.
Bump. Some threads bear revisiting and this is sure one of them for me.
I find myself in need of comfort and came back to this thread where the words of fellow travelers wrapped around me like a soft blanket. Bless those who reached back and those who may have gained from simply reading here along with me.
MoGlow, Im sending smoke-signals of prayerful thought into the Heavens on your behalf, as forgiveness is a real complexity even without a PD in the mix.
Add to that a PD who seems to instinctively hurt us and others, yet can control themselves around their outer relationship circles and so the thought of premeditated abuse enters the mind, which is such evilness.
Prayers for peace for you my Out of the FOG friend.
SoT
Yes, thank you, Mo. Great pick for Holy Week.