I'm seeing more and more posts lately about people dealing with OCPD.
While I'm sorry that so many are dealing with this, in a way it is helpful to me as I truly believe that is what my uPDh 'has' and there is not a lot of info / support about it (vs e.g. BPD)
I do feel that there is a (dangerous?) fine line/gray area in the understanding of OCPD vs OCD.
I know none of us are professionals and we are not here to diagnose.
However in doing my own research over a year ago in trying to learn how to better live with my uOCPDh's behavior I learned that there are important differences between OCD and OCPD. (h always said he had "OCD and Aspbergers", in learning more about OCD and OCPD I am convinced he has OCPD).
There are some great online resources. I'll quote from one of them:
"...A recent study points to two central features of OCPD, namely order/control, or the tendency toward rigidity, perfectionism, and over-conscientiousness; and hoarding/indecision...On the other hand, OCD is marked by the presence of true obsessions and compulsions, as opposed to the haughty rigidity that defines OCPD..."
"...The main difference between OCD and OCPD is that OCD is egodystonic, meaning that the disorder goes against the patient's self-concept"
"The main difference is that OCD is designated an anxiety disorder while OCPD is considered a personality disorder"
In my own experience (and based on some things I've read and heard from folks here at Out of the FOG, one big difference with OCPD is the folks with OCPD are more likely to try to enforce their 'rules' on those around them and to expect 'perfection' from their 'loved ones'.
I feel like in my experience a big part of the reason I was 'in the FOG' for so long was that I was convinced h just had OCD and aspbergers.
11JB68 - Thanks for this helpful post. I have a loved one with suspect OCPD who I do not live with and when her behaviors and rigidity become a stumbling block in the relationships interestingly, other family members often mislabel her behaviors as OCD and they are not at all the same. There is a lot of confusion out there regarding OCPD and OCD and I can't imagine how confusing it would be if I lived with her and she was claiming OCD and aspbergers.
The article looks really helpful. Would you be able to add a link to the source for these quotes?
thanks for this, its very helpful. Knowing the differences is key in how to proceed with the person who struggles with either one.
I completely agree with the distinction. The difficulty with the OCPD person whether diagnosed or undiagnosed is that they will typically believe that the "correct" course of action or behavior is the fundamentally most important issue. The approach to this belief structure can appear obsessive and compulsive but unlike a person who is compulsively driven to wash their hands even when they know it is not necessary, for the PD, the 'correct' behavior or action is a moral or ethical obligation. In my experience, which is not that of a professional, the obligation can supersede social norms or mores and there is no recognition that the behavior to fix a wrong could be irrational. I often call the OCPD behaviors crusades which remind me of the descriptions of Don Quixote and his crusades.
A common experience for me is that the uOCPDw gets angry to the point of a violent verbal tirade over what appears to be a minor issue or something that could be an "agree to disagree" situation. The anger is often not directed at the other party's behavior or the actual wrong; it is the fact that the other person may now rinse out the bottles before recycling but doesn't believe the step is necessary. The behavior change doesn't matter, the problem is that they don't agree with the importance of the rule.
If this were something isolated like not trusting the waiter with your credit card then it would be a quirk. When the anger, discord, violence, abuse and focus become all encompassing then I think it crosses over into OCPD. I think the tough thing is that the non PD acquaintance or spouse often doesn't realize that this won't simply go away.
I have OCD. It appears only when i am under stress. It shows in intersting ways.
I will check and recheck an alarm clock a dozen times to make sure it is correct, for example. I know this is nuts, and after CBT therapy, i can control myself now when that though comes up. I absolutely instantly forget that i set the alarm, right after i do it. But only when stressed. Therapy basicslly taught me to think "screw it if it does not go off", and i apply that to everything i do compulsively.
So, for an example of the difference, imo
OCD
when YOU make sure all the pill bottles line up perfectly.
OCPD
when you fly into a stress rage if SOMEONE ELSE does not line up the pill bottles perfectly.
BTW,
OCD people have alot of shame attached to the behaviors, we know we do it and shouldnt.
I think OCPD people think other people are incapable of doing right, and need to be watched.
:tongue2:
:yeahthat:]
Spygirl, that's a great comparison/contrast.
I'm sorry you suffer with ocd, thank you for putting your own issues out there as an example.
Yes the person with ocpd expects/demands that everyone comply with their rules, and they believe their way is the right way for everyone.
Not only do we need to be watched, but corrected, trained even.
Thank you, 11JB68. I was not aware of the differences and this explanation is very helpful and useful. In fact I used the wrong one in a recent post, so I appreciate now knowing the difference.
Spygirl, what a succinct and perfect explanation! Thank you!
I definitely believe my uNF is also uOCPD. He imposed a lot of bizarre behaviors on us children. Notably, we had to fold our fancy bedspreads a very particular way and carry them to a particular shelf in the closest with our arms straight out in front of us before going to bed. It was definitely a ritual. There were others but that one screams OCPD.
I've been asked by the moderators to cite sources. I apologize but don't really remember exactly where I got the above info at the time of posting. Anxiety.org has some good and similar info. There's also Wikipedia entry that references reliable sources.
The best info I've found personally is on the international ocd foundation site which has a great pdf with traits and differences. I can't copy paste it here as it will download to my phone and I don't want that for personal safety reasons. I hope this is helpful and I'll remember to cite sources in the future.
Here are some of my sources from above (again, sorry that in my haste I didn't cite them)
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-psychology/chapter/obsessive-compulsive-disorders/
I LOVE this one in particular:
https://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/OCPD-Fact-Sheet.pdf
https://www.anxiety.org/what-is-the-difference-between-ocpd-and-ocd-and-how-are-they-treated
Thank you so much for all of your work on this topic. I have been through a lot with uNPD in my FOO and didn't think I needed to learn about OCPD until now. I've had some recovery success through the years, using various techniques to heal.
I felt the need for a lot more support recently after my aunt once again did something really strange, heartless, and thoughtless. We are close in age and when we were younger, I was very close with her. She's changed as she's aged into someone I hardly know anymore. I knew she wasn't like her uNPD sister (my mother), but I also knew something was wrong. I took her latest stunt personally and got a bit depressed. I started remembering the past and was wondering what was wrong with me.
I truly believe uOCPD is her problem, and this information from you has helped me to realize it and not take it personally.
11JB68 - thank you so much for those great resource links. I will add them to our Other Media Resources board and link to this helpful discussion here so that this content lives on for others who may not see this thread. :hug:
That fact sheet (2 page PDF) from the IOCDF is really great.
In fact, when I finally decided to have a conversation with DS (then 20) about his dad, I showed that to him. He read it all the way through, looked up at me and said "yup, that's him".
It was so great to have an unbiased document to show to him and have him make his own decision about it.
I found it very helpful.
Now, would I ever show it to uOCPDh? No. Most likely not...
11JB68 - thank you for all the resources. I agree with you, very few people recognize OCPD and probably those that do realize something is wrong confuse it with other issues. In my case, the divorce judge found my stbxh rules to be "appropriate and economic." I'm not sure why it matters which way we hang the TP! At any rate, the appeals court recognized that he imposed his rules on me.
Spygirl, your description about OCD imposing rules on one's self vs OCPD imposing his/her rules on someone else is excellent.
Seven years:
11JB68 - thank you for all the resources. I agree with you, very few people recognize OCPD and probably those that do realize something is wrong confuse it with other issues. In my case, the divorce judge found my stbxh rules to be "appropriate and economic." I'm not sure why it matters which way we hang the TP! At any rate, the appeals court recognized that he imposed his rules on me.
YES - they impose rules on us, but we are not 'allowed' to impose rules on them. Plus, (I think unlike OCD??) the rules are always changing to meet their needs - I think with OCD it's more a rule or a set of rules that are steadfast and constant, and self-imposed, possibly 'annoying' to nons but not enforced on us. OCPD it's about controlling one's environment including the PEOPLE in that environment. And the rules apply to US but not always to HIM. (e.g. he used to get enraged at DS for 'slamming' the back door - but now HE does it!! The whole house shakes. WE can't say anything. Lots more examples)
Spygirl, your description about OCD imposing rules on one's self vs OCPD imposing his/her rules on someone else is excellent.
YES!! Yes - I've read this and heard it in multiple places.
The first/best book I read that really keyed me in that something was really wrong and eventually led me here was "Invisible Chains:Overcoming Coercive Control...."
I think one of the first examples in it was a boyfriend raging at a girlfriend for cutting her hair short. Which was the EXACT/Last straw thing that triggered me to feel something was WRONG in my marriage. When I read that example in that book it sort of gave me a chill.
I highly recommend this book.
I allow myself to enjoy a few personal "rules "
I like a starbucks coffee every morning. Its a harmless ritual.
I religiously clean litterboxes first thing when i get hm. Clear the air, literally!
These harmless rituals give me some control and order in my life, and calm me.
I cant imagine demanding that a non coffee drinker must drink coffee with me, or ordering someone to clean litterboxes at the same time i do, or even do it at all. My pet, my responsibility.
Unfortunately, OCPD is very different. That stress of not having control, or order, has to be PROJECTED onto everyrhing the pd finds important. You are exactly right in your explanation, to me anyway.
:yeahthat:
I think my exFIL has OCPD (as well as being a narcissist). My ex-husband has told me that when he was a child and the whole family went out to eat at a restaurant, his dad would insist that everyone order steak. His wife and children were not allowed to order what they wanted from the menu; they all had to get steak, which was HIS favorite.
Quote from: Spygirl on June 13, 2019, 05:44:58 PM
OCD
when YOU make sure all the pill bottles line up perfectly.
OCPD
when you fly into a stress rage if SOMEONE ELSE does not line up the pill bottles perfectly.
I do the same things! Lol!
It usually kicks off when I have anxiety (speaking with PD mom on the phone, or stressful work meeting)
I'll do stuff absentmindedly like tidy someone's desk surface at work when they are on vacation
Or if on a tense call will line pens, markers or anything to hand in order. By color...and size and brand hahahah
My partner noticed once after a call with PD Mom I'd linedup 20 highlighters on the coffee table perfectly he was dying laughing
Or ill eat m&ms like a jerk and separate all the colours! Never been officially diagnosed but I have had people in my life point it out things I do without realising. Can't stand disorder or dirty disorganised areas. But I don't impose my oddities on anyone, would never rage at anyone about it!
Goofycrumble
Lol, you are my.people.....
Quote from: Jsinjin on June 13, 2019, 12:46:42 PM
A common experience for me is that the uOCPDw gets angry to the point of a violent verbal tirade over what appears to be a minor issue or something that could be an "agree to disagree" situation. The anger is often not directed at the other party's behavior or the actual wrong; it is the fact that the other person may now rinse out the bottles before recycling but doesn't believe the step is necessary. The behavior change doesn't matter, the problem is that they don't agree with the importance of the rule.
I find this really interesting, because having been the target of some of those violent verbal tirades, I never recognized that the pwOCPD was trying to manipulate me into agreeing that the trivial thing IS A BIG DEAL. I really thought it was about the behaviour itself and just coercing (bullying) me and others into compliance. But I do see this now - this is why they give endless rationales for why they're "Right" and play the victim so much. I often felt the pwOCPD that I've encountered were trying to make me feel like I was lacking compassion and empathy for
just how badly they're affected by actions just as a means of guilt tripping to exert control, but yeah, maybe they really really just want their feelings validated. Wow, they really must feel invalid.
Another interesting thing I've considered about pwOCPD is the concept of "self-organization." Self-organization is coordinating different aspects of yourself (say, estimating, time management, self-control) in order to adapt in new ways. From what I've seen of pwOCPD they lack this adaptive ability. Everyone else and everything around them has to be perfectly organized and predictable, because nothing within them naturally is - it's why they have to rely on their system of rules. At least that's my theory ;)
1st, Jsinjin, uOCPDh never will 'agree to disagree'. In fact I think that is one of his most disliked phrases.
2...wilder hearts, I think you've really touched on something there! Wow. UOCPDH will get so upset if I'm15 minutes late, but in reality he has very little grasp or sense of time himself...