Out of the FOG

The kids are with stbx this week for vacation, they are visiting stbx's FOO. As some of you may have read in another thread, DS finally reached out to the GAL about his dad's abuse. (https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=81051.0)

On Tuesday, throughout the day, I received a series of texts from DS. First one said something about simmering anger directed at him. Second one said something about how he felt a confrontation looming. Third one said "I was confronted."
DD confirms this, as she inadvertently walked in on the conversation. Her walking in broke it up and she said, DS, who had been crying, looked visibly relieved. DD confirms the conversation had to do with what DS told the GAL.

DS refuses to speak to me about this confrontation, saying he didn't want to start crying and that he was trying to hold it together. I told him his dad wasn't allowed to talk to him about any of this and I strongly encouraged him to give the GAL a heads up so that she knows this happened. I don't know if he did.

Yesterday, while I was at the grocery store, I started receiving texts from DD. She said that stbx took DS into a bedroom and closed the door because they needed to have a "private chat." She told me she could hear DS crying. About 20 minutes later, she texts and tells me that they're still in the room and DS is sobbing like she's never heard before. I ask her to get one of her grandparents to knock on the door under the premise that they want to show DS something/DD wants to play with him/whatever. DD tells me that's not possible. DD goes outside with her Aunt, texts me again to tell me they're still in the bedroom and DS is still sobbing. It's been at least 40 minutes.

I am feeling helpless to stop this and was trying very hard not to start crying in the middle of the grocery store. Of course when I go to check out, an obnoxious customer looks at me and makes a comment about how he loves shopping at this particular store because the other customers are always so friendly and smiling. I could have throat punched him. He was being obnoxious in general, some of the cashiers commented on his interactions with other customers. Anyways...I get home and receive another text from DD saying she thinks stbx locked the door and that DS was still in there crying.

I send an email to my L, get an out of office for the holiday response. After some internal debate, I send an email to the GAL. I make it as factual as I can - received this text from Ds on this day, this text from DD today saying...I kept my swirling emotions out of it and in the end, asked if she would reach out to DS to lend him some support (GAL knew how hard it was for DS to reach out to her). I did not smear stbx or say anything negative about him.
I'm not sure if sending her the email was appropriate, but I was feeling desperate, helpless to stop this, and I needed to do something.

Last night, DD told me DS was in that room with stbx for an hour and a half. She said it had nothing to do with the GAL, that DS had said something nasty and stbx said it was "parenting" to have this "chat" with him. I told DD that in no way was this appropriate, that no matter what DS had said, it did not require an hour and a half private talk that resulted in DS sobbing for over an hour. Then DD said, well maybe some of it had to do with what DS told the GAL, but most of it didn't. I told her it didn't matter.

Then DD texts me that her dad said something afterwards and she wanted to know what it meant. I will paraphrase as best I can: "if only we could control the things we thought and wanted to be in control of..."
I told her I had no idea what that meant.

I don't know what to do. Holiday weekend coming up, I fear the GAL is also on vacation, since she didn't respond to my email. Then again, I didn't ask her to respond to me, just to reach out to DS. I won't get the kids back until Monday. I am afraid of what will happen between now and then.
Someone needs to stop this. Stbx is repeatedly violating the judge's orders to not talk to the kids about court related issues. I really hope someone in authority will step in and put an end to this...but I won't be holding my breath. It needs to stop. He is breaking DS. (I will also give a heads up to DS's T)
Thanks for reading.

Hi Whiteheron,

Your post broke my heart, I am so incredibly sorry you and your kids are dealing with this situation.  There is nothing more terrifying than knowing this is happening, and not being able to do anything about it.  I would definitely screen capture DS' texts, and if you haven't already, make sure the GAL sees them.   I guess stbx's family doesn't see what was happening?  I simple knock on the door from a family member with a "I just wanted to make sure everything is ok in here" would likely have stopped, if not at least, shortened the ordeal. These things always seem to happen over holiday weekends when there are no resources available to help!

I am so glad SD is reaching out to you and supportive of at least wanting to help her brother.  In our situation, we know those situations are happening because we hear about them months later, but the kids are so terrified to tell us when they do happen.  As terrifying as it is to hear it in progress, you have the knowledge to at least be able to call the police if you have to!

It seems your situation is at a tipping point, something needs to give- what does your attorney say?  Does DS get a say at some point?  Now that he tore the bandaid off with the GAL, and "it's out there", someone is beholden to protect him!!  This is why my DSS will never speak up, he is well aware that nobody can or will protect him from BM.  He's completely right too....we are suspecting he spoke up recently to his most recent T, and now that T seems to be a thing of the past.  OF course, the T's never do anything about it either.

Oh WhiteHeron, I wish I could come give you a hug. And I wish I could tell you it will all turn out OK for the kids even though we don't know for what will happen. I really do think they are on a good track  though and that's why your ex is being so horrible - he's trying to disrupt their healing. All that being said - this is awful to read, your poor kids, I can't imagine how hard it was for you to hear and how hard it is to know they're there until Tuesday.

:bighug:

I'm so glad you told her it's not OK to "parent" by making your child sob for an hour and a half. The one bright spot in all this is that your kids are keeping the line of communication open with you - they're not hiding the abuse, they're letting you help them through it. That's a bright spot in a very dark storm though.

I think it was the right thing to email the GAL (although I have no court experience with that, just common sense). I can't imagine she will be happy that your ex is trying to undermine her ability to talk to DS.

I keep saying this but - hang in there. Hopefully he can't do anything so bad that it has long-term consequences while the rest of his family is around. The kids (and you) just need to make it through this weekend. They are strong. He is NOT breaking DS. He's trying, but you've made sure the kids are stronger than he is. And they'll come back next week and recover, and once they're with you, you will feel sooo much better. Then you'll be in a better place to decide what to do next in terms of court. I hope you can get them out of there soon. This is all so scary.

Thanks for the kids words, stepping and penny.

I did make a call to DS's T this morning. I told her what I know and that I'd emailed both my L and the GAL about this situation, but that I thought they were likely out of town.

She was upset, partly because DS had just started opening up to her again and fears that now he will stop for fear his dad will find out what else he's saying. She said she would emphasize again that he doesn't have to go to his dad's house. That he can refuse to get out of the car and no one can force him to, not even the police. She repeatedly brought up certain traits and said they were common "narcissistic personality" traits that weren't going to go away. She mentioned that she thought stbx won't want the appearance of having the kids not want to spend time with him, so he will hopefully eventually even out. She brought up "narcissistic personality" a few times, stopped short of calling it NPD, she probably forgets a few years ago she told me it sounded like he had a personality disorder. Either that or she's being careful with labels, since it appears a trial is on the horizon. She again mentioned emotional abuse.

She told me that we would 'fix' any damage that has occurred over this past week. She encouraged me to send kind, loving texts to DS throughout the remaining days he's with stbx. To let him know I'm there and that I care. She also asked me about DD's T, if her T knew what was going on. I told her that I didn't think so. That DD doesn't really open up to her and when she does she's usually deflecting quite a bit. I also brought up that her T is under the impression she's too hard on her dad. DS's T was taken aback by this and mentioned she might ask my permission to speak with DD's T, that she would think about it and let me know. She was extremely supportive and told me to call her if I needed anything. I am so grateful for her.

Stepping - I'm lucky DS's T was willing to speak to the GAL, and together they came up with a modified custody agreement based on what DS's T thought DS could handle. DD's T on the other hand, is not seeing the full picture of what's going on. And I agree - a simple knock on the door would have potentially ended things much sooner.

Penny - I am much more outspoken about what I see as bad or negative parenting from stbx. I'm done covering for him and making excuses. I do occasionally say "I don't think dad has the capacity to x,y,z." I try not to say that too often. I'm working on validating the kids' feelings and asking more questions about their perception of the things they bring up instead of plowing on ahead with what I think. I hope it all helps them in the end. I will be heartbroken if DS turns into a version of his dad and if DD ends up partnering with someone like stbx. I just want happy self-assured kids. I never imagined they would have to go through any of this.

The problem is, there is never a good and safe solution for the kids.  Sure- DS can refuse to get out of the car, but he liley knows he will never be able to get out of the car ever again most likely.  The payback for it might just be too much and too scary....so they take the "smaller" abuses along the way to try to survive.  My DSS has stood up to his mom a few times, the repercussions were severe.

I think Ts are careful with labels because they really can't diagnose someone who they haven't had the benefit of evaluating in person, and only have 2nd hand information.  They could get slammed VERY badly and I think possibly lose their license for doing it.

It may feel like you are stuck, but from what you are posting....I see things moving toward a solution for your kids.  Keep supporting them they way you have this far.  We all just want the kids to turn out to be healthy adults, and you have gotten them this far....

WH:

This is how I see it.

The GAL, and Ts should all be communicating with each other.  It's common practice where I'm from.  They call each other.  Speak frankly.  Note the information in their charts, and rely on it to formulate informed opinions.   Particularly documented evidence... it can't be ignored.  Even if the advocate doesn't buy into it, they usually list it in their report, even if they're dismissive, IME.  IT'S THERE for your attorney to point out, and remind the Judge of.  Everything helps, IME. 

These advocates are your front line, and should be protecting the children.   

What you want to avoid is getting punished for drawing attention to the PD's failure to comply with the Judge's Order.  IS it in Order, or is it a suggestion?  It gets fuzzy, I know.

You seem to be doing a good job of documenting.

I want to point out a few things to watch for during this emotional time.

1.  It's good to avoid labeling and dx'ing the PD.  Our Judge spoke at the end of our custody/visitation trial, and put it this way. Sometimes otherwise good people behave badly when they're required to interact in circumstances together.  She didn't say anything negative about the PDs until she wrote her Order.  She said contact between my children and the PDs was detrimental to my children.

So, we avoid labeling. 

We avoid telling court officers what they MUST DO.

We avoid telling court officers what they MUST THINK.

We relate facts we can document, as you have, and we do this without expectation, which is so hard.

When I called the FBI for help, bc we know an FBI agent in extended family, that agent told me I must report every infraction to the police in order to document failure to comply with a Judge's Order.  My attorney didn't say that.  My attorney was wishy washy.... "Call the police if you really think......(insert infraction.)"  But he always made it seem like it would be more trouble than it was worth, and I can see the system punishing concerned parents all the time, bc the PDs tell better, more believable stories than we do.  No one wants to believe PD stories.... they can't understand them, they make no sense, IME.

IF we tell the story in a way that makes sense, that we've documented, and that points out exact failure to comply with an Order on the PD's part..... we're more likely to gain help, and not be punished, IME.

I would contact a Domestic Violence agency, and have a discussion about what's happening with ds, and his father, bc they're educated about more subtle forms of abuse, and their impacts on children, IME.  They might have ideas, and buzzwords to help you formulate solutions.

I would ask my Attorney if filing a Motion for Contemp is appropriate IF I CAN PROVE the PD is in Contempt.  Sometimes a Judge is ignorant, and dismissive in different areas.  I have to wonder what your Attorney knows about this Judge's habits in the courtroom.  DOES this Judge care about people failing to comply with his orders, or direction? DOES he care about parents who involve the kids in the adult struggle to the chidlren's detriment? 

I'm guessing, sorry I don't remember, that the Judge has a temporary order in place requiring both parents to refrain from including the children in the adult struggle?  It seems to me that your texts with the children could be very powerful evidence, particularly if you have the Ts, and the GAL agreeing with you, and advocating for the children.  What really helps is when the advocates get fruatrated with the PDs failure to comply, or when the PD appears to be disrespecting them, etc.  A healthy dose of anger, on the advocate's parts, is where they really go to bat for the kids, but remember that sword cuts both ways if we're perceived to be disrespecting them, etc.   

I know the courts are overwhelmed, and tend to be jaded, and dismissive of what they consider smaller infractions, but darnit.... the rules and laws should apply WHEN WE CAN PROVE OUR CASE, IME. 

My heart breaks for you, and your children. 

Remember, they won't be this young for long.  Time will fly, and they'll be older, more capable, and doing their own thing before you know it.  This too shall pass.

Lighter

Quote from: Stepping lightly on August 30, 2019, 03:15:47 PM
The problem is, there is never a good and safe solution for the kids.  Sure- DS can refuse to get out of the car, but he liley knows he will never be able to get out of the car ever again most likely.  The payback for it might just be too much and too scary....so they take the "smaller" abuses along the way to try to survive. 

I did mention something similar to DS's T when I spoke with her. I told her that he could refuse, but that stbx would definitely hold it against him. DS has had enough, that's why he agreed to talk to the GAL. He's done. After this past week, I have no idea what frame of mind he will be in when he gets back to my place.

hhaw - A while back when stbx was filing affidavit after affidavit against me, the judge verbally warned us to not discuss any of it with the kids. Next thing that happens - stbx is discussing information I put in a response affidavit with DS. My L brought it up in a letter to the judge, stbx's L got right on it and responded that stbx was responding as any loving, caring, concerned father would (gag). We were verbally warned again.
stbx then tried to get ahold of DS's therapy notes. My L called the judge and had a temporary hold put on the records. This is why the psych evaluator recommended I have final say (essentially full legal custody) and that I be the custodial parent. The judge agreed and put it in the temp custody order.

This time though - stbx is taking the information the GAL disclosed in a conference call with both L's (his L reporting back to him and giving a summary) and using that to probe and put DS on the spot. Idk what the judge will say (we have a status hearing in about two weeks). I can only hope he's at the end of his rope with stbx's behaviors. I hope the GAL is appalled and says something to the judge. stbx is clearly not acting in the kids' best interest.

I can't remember if the order to not speak about divorce related issues was written or if it was just verbal. The judge was very stern with his warning.

The GAL has been communicating with the T's, but the kids refused to give their T's permission to disclose any information about their dad to the GAL. Anything the GAL did learn, the kids would tell her to not tell anyone, so her hands were basically tied. She was not legally able to tell the judge anything about what was going on without the kids' permission (although she did hint at things). It wouldn't have mattered anyways, because the kids were refusing to tell her anything, knowing she would report to the judge and it would get back to their dad. DS opened up to the GAL two weeks ago, fully knowing that his dad would find out some of it. The only good that I can see coming out of all of this is that now the GAL can go directly to the judge and speak to what DS has been subjected to over the years. The GAL now has what DS told her directly, and what DS's T told her. I feel that's pretty strong.

The problem is, everyone is on vacation and I know the GAL is on vacation again the week before our court date. So, we're in limbo until we can get in front of the judge. I don't know what my L will say about any of this, since she is also on vacation.
stbx's L had already peeved off the GAL, she wrote a harsh rebuke telling his L not to tell her how to do her own job (among a few other things). It was scathing. My L was actually surprised at the strong language the GAL used (it was awesome).

I am careful to not label stbx (I took that advice to heart before I spoke to anyone). I am of the mindset that stbx needs reduced time with the kids (as was recommended by DS's T and the GAL) so that he can be the best parent he can be, as he tends to get overwhelmed when he has the kids for an extended period of time (more than 2 nights). I believe shortening his time will allow him to be a better parent and it will be better for the kids as well. I can blame it on his bipolar dx if need be. That label was given to him by a professional. My L and I have avoided making a huge issue out of his dx, but we may need to in the future, since it's clearly affecting his ability to parent.

I think making the dx an important issue will be necessary. 

I also think the GAL, and Judge will be angry over the PD locking son away, behind a closed door, in private, to discuss and intimidate him over things he said to the GAL.  It breaks my heart to think ds tried to stand up and be strong, then got dragged into the bedroom, and made to regret that strength. 

The kids need advocates, and I honestly think you're lining them up, best you can, to do their jobs.

I'd be tempted to ask for an emergency hearing, regarding PD's refusal to leave the kids out of the adult struggle. This is harmful to the kids, was strictly forbidden by the Judge, and is something the PD continues to do, which means he has a history, and apparent inability to control his impulses, which likely goes hand in hand with his dx.  Your attorney should have opinions on this, and any Motion for Contempt.

I'd think about tying the PD's dx INTO his inappropriate behaviors.   

HAVE the children refused to go with their father in the past?

Have they asked you to pick them up from this trip?

I think the next time your case comes up in front of this Judge you'll make the most of your evidence, witnesses, and advocates.  I think this Judge is primed to understand your case, and give you what you want, particularly bc the Judge seems to hate opposing counsel, and the PD won't heed the Judge about discussions with the children.

Keep everything child centered.  Stay emotionally level.  Don't ever ever ever get defensive, and always be prapared to back up your verbal statements with documents and evidence.

Always always always speak about the PD with compassion, and don't judge him.  Leave that to the Judge, bc it sounds like this Judge is primed and capable of doing that one little thing, IME.

Good luck, and document your keester off, WH.

Your PD, and his attorney sound like they'll inadvertantly help you win what you need for your children.

Hey WhiteHeron, how's it going this week?

I am so sorry, WH.  :bighug: I hope everything you are doing makes a difference soon (with the court order). It sounds like you are doing a good job documenting everything. I know you are supporting your kids so much and their trust in your shows. I hope this difficult time blows over quickly and the courts are able to come up with a good solution.

Things are not good. DS's anxiety is through the roof. He's terrified of his dad. Apparently while away with stbx (visiting the In-Laws), after the confrontations, DS sent an email to the GAL telling her to not change the custody schedule. The GAL tried to contact DS after this email, but DS hasn't responded. The GAL was concerned enough to set up another conference call between the L's. Not sure what that's going to do. She cites concerns about what's being spoken about with DS and the behavior of the parents towards DS (I know this doesn't mean me - just stbx, but she has to phrase it this way).

I am so very angry. That man cannot see past himself to realize he is harming DS. Perhaps irreparably. Threatening and manipulating DS into doing what he wants is just...it gets me all mama bear and twisted up in knots, is what it does. I have made calls to DS's T, been emailing my L, who is in contact with the GAL. We are near a breaking point. I pray it's not DS who breaks. He is a wreck.

I am extremely worried about stbx's mental state. I am not sure what I can do about it at this point. He's so paranoid that he's installed cameras (that can send/receive sound) throughout the interior of his house. The kids are constantly being monitored. I let my L and DS's T know, my L passed this information on to the GAL.
I just don't know what to do.

Pre-trial court appearance is coming up soon...with a new judge. Idk what this means for any of this.

OH WH, I know this is such a hard time for all of you, and you are doing the very best you can for your kids!

Did you get any info from DS about the email to the GAL?  Did he do it because his dad made him, or did he do it out of fear?

I imagine the upcoming trial is spurring stbx to lose control more than normal, but wow! 

DS has to talk to the T and GAL, and they need to protect him.  It's really a huge risk for these kids, if they open up and nobody does their job (which is like 99% of the time) they are so screwed when the PD finds out.  Can you get an emergency hearing to remove custody until the trial?  I know that still puts the kids at risk for after the trial, if people continue not to do their job to protect the kids, but it will get DS out of the hot seat so he can heal.

A new Judge means the Judges changed up OR the Judge in charge passed this case on to a baby Judge to get it off his plate. 

Ask your attorney what the new Judge is like.  DRAT!  I can't beleive you lost the Judge who was losing patience with the PD and his attorney! 

Very frustrating,  but that's the game when in court with PD's,  IME. 

Just remember, at least IME, the PDs can't snow everyone all the time, even if they manage to snow someone.  Since theyt're working all all all the time to DO that, they typically get someone to believe them.   That's OK.  Remember you have evidence.  You understand how to play the game. 

That you understood the GAL HAD to write both parents were including the children in adult discussions was important.  If a witness tells the actual PD truth, they're often perceived to be biased.   Witnesses have to appear unbiased in order to be effective, IME.

I'm glad the GAL seems to understand the situation.  The fact ds asked her to leave the Agreement the same, while ON holiday with his father, along iwth the children's texts to you, would seem to back up the situation, IME.

The T should be helpful as well.

I'm so sorry this is happeing, but I'm praying for you and your children, WH.

The judges in my area are on a rotation. The original judge operates out of a neighboring county. The trial judge has to be from my county. That's why the switch. My L informs me that this new judge is pro 50/50, but that it likely won't matter given what's been going on. She also mentioned that this judge may not be the trial judge.

DS is not telling me anything. He keeps saying "it's too dangerous" and that he could "get into trouble with the court." I promptly told DS's T and my L, who passed it on to the GAL. I did reassure DS that nothing he could ever say or do could get him into trouble with the court.

Things are to a point where, if this weekend the kids had been scheduled to be with stbx, the GAL was going to have me violate the custody order. Thankfully, the kids were scheduled to be with me this weekend. There will be a conference call on Monday.

Big problem is that the GAL can fight for DS...but DD is remaining silent. I fear the kids may be split - with DD following the regular schedule and DS following a modified schedule. This would be awful. It would further put DS in stbx's spotlight and emphasize to him that DS is in fact the problem, and it will also serve to isolate DD - divide and conquer is one of stbx's specialties. What better way to brainwash his daughter than to get her alone with no one to sand up for her...

My L wants me to push DD to talk to the GAL or at the very least her T. She refuses, and I don't blame her.

Ya, if we can't protect the kids from the Pd's wrath and maipulations, we can't blame them for trying to protect themselves with their silence.

Can you use dd's texts to you?  Are those helpful at all?

I hope you can protect your children, in the long run.  Maybe your dd can understand that the short term will be scary, if she talks, but will protect her in the long run, for the long haul?

There has to be an incentive for her to speak against the PD.  If not, she's wise to remain silent. 

Hi WH,

You and your kids are really being faced with no good choices.  It's tough when you come to a place where there is a decision on whether to only make the change for one child, leaving the other one to deal with the PD on their own.  It seems getting DS out is the first priority, he is the one at imminent risk.  If DD doesn't speak up, you can only work with what you have at that time.  You would hope that the GAL and T's would see what is happening to DS and if it is bad enough to change custody for him, they would want to protect SD too, even if she hasn't spoken up.  They'd be hard pressed if she had issues to explain why they only helped one of the kids.  Like HHAW said, you have the texts she sent you, she's in the thick of it and you can show that.

We came to the same decision place not long ago, we never wanted to think the kids would be on different custody schedules, but it was so bad for DSS and DSD was the GC at BM's.  DSS wanted to get away from BM, DSD is desperate for her mother's attention and would never have wanted any time taken away from her.  Sadly, we also felt that DSD was bullying DSS along with BM, and the time apart would be healthier for him.  We were unable to make any of it happen, and we have had to resort with giving DSS survival skills and how to "fly under the radar" with BM to not incur her wrath.  What a thing to teach a kid right? 

Oh WhiteHeron,

:bighug:

I'm so sorry, this is all so scary. I just don't understand why the GAL would be OK with sending your DD back there more often, knowing how harmful their dad has been to DS. Does anyone really think he's only acting that way toward one kid and he's totally fine with the other???

I would make another run at settling with your stbx for the schedule the GAL proposes. Can you make some kind of concession? Maybe financial? That
might be the quickest way out of this. But then again, he might refuse just to prove he has control over the situation.

It hit me that all the GAL needed to hear from DD was what she wanted in terms of custody. She doesn't need to open up and spill out her heart. I gave her three choices and told her she'd need to tell the GAL her decision: More time, same time, less time. Over a year ago she told the GAL she was ok with 50/50. She didn't even know what that meant (thanks for planting that seed stbx).

I arranged for them to speak, DD was more than willing. She told the GAL what she wanted, answered a few questions the GAL had for her (as in...do you think your dad will be angry if he finds out you spoke to me? DD's answer "probably").

Hopefully something comes out of this before the next court date.

penny - I have already made considerable financial concessions, I am not willing to go any lower. He can refuse, but I'm fairly certain the judge will lose his *stuff* when he hears what's been going on. (I made a mistake earlier - I didn't realize I had two court dates coming up, the first is with our old judge, second is with a new judge).

WhiteHeron! Great job. I'm soooo glad you found a way that your DD could talk to the GAL, honestly and in a way where she feels comfortable. One of the things DH and I try very hard to do when it comes to BM is to problem-solve. PDs and the court system don't easily promote creative solutions, and it's very easy to get stuck in black and white thinking. What you just did is like a master class in thinking through a better solution.

How do you feel? How are the kids doing this week?

I hope the judge does lose his *stuff*! The judge should be angry at how your ex is treating the kids (and you) and make orders accordingly.

So what's next? Is your hope that the GAL can convince your ex to settle now for less time? And then if not, what? You bring it up at one of these upcoming court hearings?

I hope that the system can finally move quickly to get your kids what they need.

Thanks Penny. Kids are on edge. Not knowing what the custody schedule will look like for the rest of this week. GAL is trying to schedule a conference call between the L's asap. She told the L's they need to discuss the custody schedule asap, that she has serious concerns regarding what's being said, the pressure that the kids are under, and how it's affecting them.   
She knows DS was forced to send her an email stating he wanted the custody schedule to remain the same. She knows stbx is bullying the kids.
I hope this call takes place tomorrow. Being in limbo is hard for the kids.

Thank you for the update, Whiteheron.  It sounds like the GAL is doing what she is supposed to (representing your children's interests). 

I agree with Poison Ivy. It does sound like the GAL knows exactly what is going on. While it is a scary situation, I'm glad she understands it. I hope the kids are able to be on the same schedule with less time (or supervised only) with stbx.

Kids are with me until the court date next week. They're having mixed feelings. Happy, relieved, yet anxious because of stbx's potential (and likely) reaction to them talking to the GAL.

I told DD she was ok to say "you're not allowed to talk to me about this" and walk away. Knowing her, she'll have a few more words to say to him. She's of the mind that this is stbx's own fault. If he hadn't acted the way he did, none of this would have happened. So he can try to blame the kids all he wants to. She's not buying it.

DS is a bit more sensitive and is worried his dad will blame him for all of this.

I'm just so glad some of stbx's behaviors are finally out in the open for all to see. It's not just me screaming into the wind...

How scary, WH.

If I had all those frightening years to do over again, I wish I'd have found a good Trauma T with Buddhist leanings, for me and the kids.

We all woiuld have benefited miles from it, and likely avoided oldest dd's visits to Wilderness Camp, and Therapeutic Boarding School.  Youngest dd is having troubles now.  The trauma takes up residence in our bones, and bodies.

At some point, it demands to be dealt with.   Sooner is better than later, IME.

Good luck,

A lot of fear and anxiety in the kids. DS's T is very concerned about him. Fear of the inevitable confrontation by stbx.

I'm hearing the word 'narcissist' being tossed about by different professionals when referring to him. Today my L said it and also said "I'm sure he loves the kids, or at least he thinks he does..." So it appears people are finally understanding what he is and what his limitations are.

I am still avoiding using the narc word to describe him. Even though I firmly believe that's what he is...well, the PD version at the very least.

Whiteheron, I'm so sorry you're all going through this.  It makes me feel sick to the stomache. You must be feeling even worse.

Can you remind me of how old your children are?

I'm struck by your daughter's clarity especially, and am wondering at what age I might hope that my ds12 will be able to see the same about his uNPD father and uNPD smum.

He is going to be living with them from next year, after living with me all of his life.

He's either going to get  a big shock or drink the coolaid and abandon me.

AOD

WH,

I would imagine DS's anxiety is valid regarding the inevitable future encounter.  Since you have the attention of the T and the GAL, I am sure you will ensure this is addressed.  Maybe they can suggest only supervised visits going forward so that DS will be protected?

DS is 15 and DD is 12. They saw what was going on long before they said anything to me. I know DD has learned a lot from DS. I'm not sure how long it would have taken her on her own.

It would be my guess your DS knows or at least has an inkling something is off. My kids were afraid to say anything to me at first, and they were (are) terrified of stbx, so they played nice and acted the way he wanted them to - including doing/saying things they didn't believe just to keep the peace.

Supervised visits were strongly recommended by DS's T. Things are happening behind the scenes. I have no idea what's going on, tbh. Just hoping for a peaceful weekend with the kids.

I've already seen stbx's vehicle in a part of town he doesn't frequent, but knows I do (at that particular time)...hoping it was just a fluke.

Supervised visitation is what's necessary when the PD can't be appropriate during visitation.  Some absolutely cannot.

Do some research, WH, and know what your options are, just in case supervised visitation is on the table.

There are facilities, and people who can drive the children to their father's home, then be present during all interaction.  There's different levels of supervision. 

Sometimes you can rope a poor family member or friend into the sitatuation, but they have to be someone the PD can't control or intimidate or snow... and they have to know it's a burdenl, and an ongoing commitment so the person should be dependable, and calm, and in it for the long haul, bc they love the kids, and understand why the supervision is necessary.

Perhaps a list of viable options, to share the burden, if you're going with supervision by a friend or family member. 

Think through the best possible situation you could ask for should the Judge give you anything you ask for, kwim?  If it's allowing the PD to visit the kids in your home, or having little outings with someone else along.... just think it through.  There won't likely be any great solutions, IME.  The PDs will come up with reasons to resist it, and, in our case, they refused all visitation if they couldn't drag the kids behind closed doors, in privacy, and poison them at will, with two exceptions when they attempted to set up the paperwork, and visits while allowing too little time to complete the paper work, in both cases.  It was sad, and they kept pushing to get the kids anyway, throwing out names of people to supervise that absolutely didn't havef the kids' best interests in mind, and wouldn't have supervised in any way.  I had to say NO, over and over again, bc they refused to go through the proper steps, and do what they needed to do, which was their way of saying they wouldn't comply, under any circumstances, which was about what I expected, truth be told.

What they did do was keep dragging me back into court, asking for whatever they could throw up... custody, visitation... the last case was a custody case after they lost visitation rights.  That was the doorway into asking for visitation again, bc there was a change in the law, that didn't have anything to do with out situation,btw. 

My point is..... try to SEE down the road, and help your Judge bullet proof the Order, so you aren't getting dragged back into court again and again if you can help it.  An attorney will know more about that than I do. Some simply say "You can't lock the courthouse doors" but some look down that road, see what's possible, then try to cut off the PDs where they can with the way the Order's written, IME. 

And remember, you can go back and ask the Judge to make changes AFTER the Order's been written.  Do it once time, and make it count. 

I hope the old Judge handles this situation, and cuts the PD off so he can't scare your children any more.

Good luck,

This all sounds promising. I'm sorry you're going through this. It sounds like it's about to come to an end and have a good outcome - I really hope it does. I'm so glad your ex had his meltdown right before the agreement was entered rather than right after.

I hope the kids start feeling better soon. If the T thinks supervised visitation is a good idea, hopefully they will consider allowing it to be put in the order. After all that happened with the confrontation, I think it's a good idea to ask for it. I would think after everything the GAL would be on board with this as well. I hope this is all resolved soon. Court in itself can be so stressful. You and your kids deserve a break from the craziness.

Second court date has been rescheduled. stbx's L is going off on a rant about how a 15 year old (almost 16) can't be in charge of saying what's best for himself and tried to blame the entire problem on DS. Good thing I had emailed my L ahead of time and let her know that stbx was going to start blaming DS and me (apparently I'm complicit in whatever issue stbx had concocted). Judge does not agree with stbx and his L's spin on things. I have full custody for now.

stbx is already trying to guilt and manipulate DD. The games never stop. Trying to teach DD to do what she really wants, not what someone's guilted her into doing.

Quote from: Whiteheron on September 16, 2019, 03:40:43 PM
I have full custody for now.

This is great! You have done such a tremendous amount of work for your kids, just moved heaven and earth to get them into a safe situation. I'm so, so impressed and also happy that you're getting a good result. But I know how taxing it can be -- how are you feeling?

Also, it sounds like DD still has to see him? So the full custody just applies to DS?

I am so sorry stbx is trying to manipulate DD. But I am glad you have full custody for now. Thank goodness the judge could see through their spin on things. How ridiculous...blaming DS.  >:(

Here's what I think.... I think Judges, and court clerks, and law clerks all talk, and that first Judge UNDERSTANDS the situation, IMO... from what I've read.

I suspect the PD will continue to make choices that help the court SEE what he is,  particularly as he feels he's losing control, IME.

It's all fine and good as long as his attorney is filling his head with what they're going to do, but when the harsh light of that courtroom shines on the PD and his evidence, that's where you'll really start to feel relief, and the PD will start to come truly unraveled. 

Sometimes I've had to look at the PD unravel from between my fingers in court, and force my hands from my face.   It's not comfortable. It's hard to watch,  IME. 

Just have that list of things you want and need handy, bc your Judge might just give you everything you ask for.

I'm certainly praying for it.

So an update:

Visitation and therapy between DS and stbx has been ordered by the judge. Visitation with no overnights for now. One dinner a week and two day visits every other weekend to start, with the overall goal of returning to the original custody schedule.

I told the kids about the visits last night and DS has already started having nightmares and anxiety. DD doesn't want to go and told me today that there is no way stbx will not discuss any of this with DS. She firmly believes that the first chance stbx gets, he will confront DS again. She says "that's just who he is." I did tell her that I thought her dad would be ok for a little while, because other people will be watching to see how it goes. She doesn't believe me. I haven't told DS about the therapy yet.

I keep asking my L if we can get someone to monitor stbx's mental health - not so I can go after him for being unstable, but because a healthy, mentally balanced stbx will be better for everyone, especially the kids. I feel like no one cares about this - all they care about is forcing an unhealthy relationship between the kids and their dad, just because he is their dad.

 :bighug:

Even a victory isn't really a victory, with a PD. I'm sorry, my heart aches for your poor son. He did the right thing, you did the right thing and the system is still putting him in an impossible situation with an abuser.

Is your DD going to follow the same schedule as DS, or is she on the same schedule as before?

I am rooting for the GAL to succeed in getting these points to the judge!

penny - right now they are on the same schedule. she's refusing to go unless DS is with her. They will keep an eye on how visitation goes. Problem is, if stbx has scared DS into not saying anything...no one will know if DS is still being mistreated.

ark-GAL has the judge's ear. for now. my L reported back that the judge is getting very angry and frustrated, she's never seen him like this before. stbx's L keeps chugging along insisting there is no problem with his client...still insisting on 50/50 custody.

This is a very scary time and I hope that it stabilizes into something the kids can live with and thrive under. I do think it's a really good sign that the judge is so frustrated with your ex.

It's been a while, so here's an update. The excitement never ends with a PD!

This week, stbx is demanding increased visitation or he will go directly to the judge. Exactly how is this easing back into the schedule?? He demands a 5.5 hour dinner visit one night (as opposed to 3 hours), a 6.5 hour dinner visit another night (as opposed to no visitation), and 11 hour weekend visits each day (as opposed to 7 hours each day). This is after only one week of trying out the new visitation schedule, which isn't official.

I don't like being threatened, and that's exactly what he did.

Also, both kids are struggling in school. He's demanding to suddenly get involved, requesting copies of every failing assignment post haste...so he can gather his 'evidence' and send it to the judge. What's he trying to prove? I know him well, so he's likely trying to prove that time away from him is detrimental to their grades. I guess he forgets that the week before school started, he terrorized both kids on his week long vacation with them, which resulted in this reduced visitation schedule and which has caused great anxiety and stress in the kids.

The kids can't even get into a steady routine because we are playing it week by week.  >:( >:( >:(

The depths of his illness never cease to amaze me. He is utterly blameless.

I'm sorry to hear this, Whiteheron.  How frustrating and sad for you and your children.

Thanks Poison Ivy.

I'm actually not sure how much more of this I can take.

It's another day, and they sent another letter (yay!). stbx is playing the victim card big time. According to him, over the last few months he's only seen the kids for less than 24 hours, which is complete BS. Does he forget his vacation week? The week where he couldn't help but confront DS about speaking to the GAL? Apparently I am also to blame for both kids not doing well in school. If only he had been there to 'get involved' their grades would be top notch. So my guess yesterday was correct.  :roll: It's all my fault. He is blameless (typed with heavy sarcasm).

The letter they sent today was reminiscent of the affidavits stbx was so fond of filing last year...or was it two years ago? Or both? I honestly can't remember. The letter was filled with fluff and loving, caring father crap. I responded to my L regarding the letter with facts and a timeline, which she forwarded on to the GAL.

My lawyer did tell me today that the kids would have to spend more time with stbx unless they spoke up against him. I reminded her of what happened to DS when he did, and that DD saw this and will not say a word to the GAL for fear the same thing will happen to her. I reminded my L how hard it is to tell people this kind of thing, and that it had taken me years to finally tell people. And the court is expecting the kids (kids!) to stand up against him? The court can't do anything unless they hear exactly what stbx is doing and why they want less time with him? After all that's transpired? Really? FTS

My lawyer tells me that if we go to court, overnights will be reinstated, so it's best to try to settle. WTactualF?!

I had to have a talk with both kids today about the realities of their situation. I had to tell DD that she is too young to simply say she doesn't want to spend time with her dad unless DS is present. That she will have to explicitly state to the GAL why. I also had to have a talk with DS about giving more details to the GAL and to continue telling his story. To talk about the behaviors they are having issues with. I hated every minute of it. Which is the lesser of two evils - dealing with an unstable father, or dealing with an unstable father for less time, but with repercussions?

There is nothing more I can do. I will continue to be stable and to help the kids in any way I can...but my hands are tied.

Why does it always seem to feel like stbx gets his way no matter what? Now stbx and his L will go to the judge, since I won't agree to his demands.
Why won't anyone stop him? Why won't they demand that he get help? :unsure: >:( :-\
I feel like I'm in bizarro world.

WH:

I'm so sorry there's no better choices. It seems like we've lost the thread on caretaking the most vulnerable members of society in this system.

The people who like, cheat, and steal will always have a leg up on us in the courts. At least the first years, and sometimes getting to that final courtroom is too costly, too traumatizing, and too late.

You should consider having a frank discussion with the kids, their Ts, and the GAL to come to the least harmful decisions going forward.  The kids have to be honest, even if they do it off the record, IMO.

TO SPEAK their truth, and feel heard, and validated.  To put their reality OUT THERE, and know what's ahead sans good, better, best outcome.

These years can be about learning to be resilent, and managing their emotions for a lifetime.  That's the best you can aim for, IME. 

Limiting the chaos and trauma.

Teaching the kids how to deal with their COWs... their crisis of the week, and there will always BE a COW. 

Right now it's a PD parent, which usually disrupts childrens' lives, and emotional stability for a lifetime.

How can you turn this into growth, and wisdom for your kids?

A real trauma therapist would be my very best recommendation.  They're different than other Ts, and I know this bc I've found one that's amazing.  She's different, and super focused on teaching all the skills needed to overcome the trauma, and learn to deal with a lifetime of trauma to come.

Shame on the court system, and court officers involved in putting our kids at risk.

The thing is.... it's likely they're as ignorant, and  flawed, and overwhelmed as most people.  We don't learn basic life skills in this culture . We don't like to believe PDs DO the things they do. 

Your kids are lucky to have you for a parent.  You're advocating for them, and you'll find a way to enrich their lives bc of this struggle, not just in spite of it, IME.

I wish you the best possible outcome,

I'm so sorry WhiteHeron.

I just don't understand how the GAL and the judge aren't beside themselves trying to protect your kids! They disclosed abuse, their dad retaliated ... to me this seems like such a black and white situation.

But, you have to deal with realities, not what we know to be right and wrong.

From everything you've said it sounds like you've raised two smart, strong, resilient kids. It's not fair that they have this burden, but I think they have it in them to rise to the occasion and protect themselves.

Hang in there. Often I've found with our BM that when she does something like this, it's an extinction burst before she will settle/be reasonable (as much as she ever is  anyway). Hopefully that's what's happening here too. But if not, you will just keep doing your best. Things won't always be so stressful.

:hug:

Hi WH,

Your situation is a true demonstration of a broken family court system.  It is mind boggling that the PD can be so openly destructive, and yet there is nothing that can be done to help the kids. We have experienced that same horror, it is like the PD is made of Teflon and no bad behavior sticks, and there are no consequences.  The only explanation that we've been able to get for it, is that the PD is willing to "go there".   Officials/Professionals just aren't willing to do what is needed to protect the kids.  I know for us, the professionals that have stood up to BM, have risked destruction of their career.  When BM senses a professional is seeing behind the mask, she cuts off their involvement, and if she is unable to do that, she makes accusations to undermine their ability to move forward (malpractice, etc).  As non's, we work within the framework of the custody order, morals, laws; as we should.   

I say this, because we all still need to stick to doing the right thing, but DH and I have discussions about what we can do that is not just following the regular path and continually slamming into a wall of a failed system.  We haven't successfully figured this out, but, DH likes to use the philosophy of the strength and flexibility of water, "Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it."  When water runs into something that stops it, it either pushes through or changes direction. 

Can you get your kids their own attorney?  I say this hesitantly, but it's just a thought to throw out there.  BM did this, and this is why she currently has full custody.  It required judge approval, and it's different than having a GAL.  There was a group locally for us that does this pro bono.  The difference between the attorney and the GAL is that the GAL is navigating both parents, trying to figure out "what's best".  For an attorney, your kids would be their client, and they would fight for what they ask for, not what is deemed by the court to be "in their best interest" (which never seems to work out that way).  Their conversations are privileged with the attorney.  This went so badly for us because BM drove the process and the kids were SO young (8/10) with documented alienation happening, they were scared not to pick her.  They actually thought if they picked her, it would make her happy and she would stop being mean.  Once that didn't happen, and we couldn't undo it...they were devastated.    Your kids are older- so it could be something worth exploring.  You may  still be able to have the GAL testify in addition to the attorney fighting for the kids. 

These situations just suck, you get to this point and you basically have to bravely go "all in", or you have to change tactics.  It's never easy or a sure thing.  Obviously you have a village behind you on these boards, and we are emotionally rallying for you and your kids!

I am so sorry for all that you and your kids are going through WH.  The lack of understanding of these mental health issues at the Court level and the repercussions on children is mind-boggling and shameful.  The fact that your circumstances and the kids' safety and well-being is dependent on them being strong enough to speak up REPEATEDLY when there is so much manipulation and emotional abuse occurring is beyond reprehensible. 
I wish I had something productive to contribute, I just feel for you so much.

I do not have any advice right now.  Just solidarity.

This fucking sucks. I am sorry.

Thanks everyone for your support. It really means a lot.

All correspondence coming out of my L's office has to do with the mental welfare of the kids. All correspondence coming out of stbx's L's office has to do with demanding what he wants and attempts to portray him in the best light. I hope the judge takes notice of this.

Kids are annoyed that I'm pressuring them, but I laid it right out - speak up or overnight visits will start up again. I'm ok if they're ok with that, but I know they're not. DS's anxiety/stress symptoms have returned. He tried so very hard to stay home from school today (dinner visit with dad last night and again both days this weekend).

stbx seems to be loosing his *stuff*. got angry over text with me yesterday. I may have replied to goad him on a bit  :angel:
He was supposed to be taking DD to an appt, she had an after school commitment. I made arrangements for her to leave the commitment early so she could make the appt, told stbx what time to pick her up from school. He neglected to tell me he'd canceled the appt. DD refused to leave early with him when he told her he was taking her home. He hadn't told her about the appt and was very angry she knew. Demanded to know how she knew about it  (the practitioner had told us) :roll:. Angry with me because I 'misread' his text. Angry with me because DD stayed at the school instead of going with him. Threw a tanty and left without telling her. She was frantic until she remembered that I told her she could call me anytime and I would come get her. It was a mess. Created by stbx and blamed on me. I'm certain I'll be hearing about this through the lawyers.

If it hadn't been for the appt, I never would have allowed him to pick her up earlier than the scheduled time. He knows that. Why did he assume I would? He wants it, therefore he should get it? Feels like he's trying to manipulate me.

When he was trying to convince DD to leave early with him she demanded to know what happened to the appointment, why was he there to pick her up early if he had canceled - he showed her the text thread between him and I. Instead of calling me mom, he called me whiteheron. DD was beside herself. Demanding to know why he keeps trying to get her alone.

It feels like he's escalating. My L says just sit tight and give him the chance to fail. How much damage to the kids in the meantime?

I think dd's concerns about her father's' attempt to get her alone are a huge red flag.

That's not the status quo.... PD isn't supposed change up the plans without sharing that information ahead of time.  Kids do better when we aren't springing things on them willy nilly.  The need to know what's happeing, where they're going to be, and when they'll go back to the other parent's home, IME.

DD obviously has anxiety around visits anyway.  I'm proud of your dd... standing up for herself, advocating for herself. 

Stay calm, and professional.  PDs don't like explaining themselves, or their actions.  They don't like being put on the spot, and forced to explain why they can't be appropriate.   

Remember every word you write and speak will be used against you or help you.

 

WH,
I think it's such a great sign that your DD remembered that you said she could always call you. She did amazing, and you have given her the tools to advocate for herself.  The fact that he tried to circumvent the schedule in this way is extremely troubling, to me. I hope your L can lay it out like that for the GAL and the judge. He is trying to go behind everyone's back and get DD alone - and that's after he has gotten into trouble for trying to punish the kids for speaking out against abuse! Definitely an escalation. The silver lining is that your DD handled it SO well. I hope you told her that.

I'm sorry they're annoyed that you're "pressuring" them. But again, I don't see that you have a choice. You can't do any more for them - if they want to see a change they HAVE to act. It wouldn't be fair to them to dance around that information. It sucks, you know it, they know it, but it's still there.

I agree that he's escalating and it's so scary and the best you can hope is that he escalates to the point where the judge steps in BEFORE he does any real damage.

I'm so impressed with you. I know it doesn't feel like enough but you are doing so much and handling everything just right. When this is all over I hope you can do something really, really nice for yourself and the kids.

:bighug:

Thanks hhaw and penny,

hhaw - after I read your comment, I had a brief moment of panic and had to reread the text thread. I kept it pretty level and not obviously provoking. I could have ignored and said less, but I chose to engage a little bit. Maybe I'm feeling a little guilty because I know better?

DD had a new appt with this professional and they were able to discuss, at length (and in private), what had happened with her dad last week. The more people that know, the better.

penny - Thank you for your kind words. I'm definitely not feeling that I'm doing enough lately. I just about lost my sh*t today. I am feeling extremely overwhelmed, and the kids are leaning on me SO very much. DS is still very depressed, his T is concerned about him. I am feeling a lot of pressure from his T. T is telling me he needs to do more things with kids his age, maybe volunteer somewhere, etc. She suggested taking him to volunteer at a place we like to go to occasionally (because it's an hour and a half drive away). T says, I know it's quite a drive, but if he could volunteer there on saturdays for a few hours... :blink:
So after T, I drive him back to school for his after school activity - which is something he volunteered for and is with kids his age (so it should count for something) - and he's giving me crap about how I just have to drive him back to school for some useless activity, giving me major attitude. I'm ashamed to admit, I gave him attitude right back. I actually told him that if he was going to give me attitude, he would receive attitude in return. I was feeling so completely done. I'm at my limit, I just can't anymore. He's not willing to help himself, how can I possibly do it for him? I can't.

After dropping DS back at the school, I screamed some swear words in the privacy in my car for a few minutes, then went off to run my errands.  :wacko:
After I calmed down, I started to formulate a plan. T said DS needs to be with kids, he's socially isolated (ds tells T he has zero friends - he has a circle of 5-6 he usually hangs with, if he's excluding himself deliberately, that's on him). I decided I will force him to do something with a friend this weekend. Told him to schedule it or else "mommy would do it for him." We will go to the place that's an hour and a half away, but to visit - DS can volunteer somewhere closer. I will get him involved in a physical activity (which he needs for school anyways), and that's all I can do. I am worried he's playing the victim card with his T, I'm worried he's seeking attention, that this may all be an act...but I'm also worried his depression is real...stbx has me so messed up. DS should be acting like a selfish teen. That stbx's behaviors closely align with selfish childlike behaviors shouldn't be a factor. I hate to admit it crosses my mind.

When I picked DS up from his activity, he said "I'm not mad at you anymore"  :flat: But he revealed that he was angry and giving me attitude because he was frustrated with me for telling him yet again, after T, to keep talking to the GAL. That once was not enough - to be persistent so that his story doesn't get forgotten (T agreed with me when I said this today).

In the car ride home, I said to both kids "new rules." Less devices, more schoolwork and socializing. Now DS is happily studying for his two tests this week and DD is angry with me. Sigh. I can't win. I'm at my limit. But I won't quit. I'll keep going, for the kids. They know I care. They know they matter. But man am I exhausted. It's been almost three years.

Of course you're overwhelmed. Anyone would be and that's a fact. You are at an extreme level of stress, one that no person could maintain forever. Right now you're going through an insane crisis, worse than many people will ever face in their lifetime. Hang in there, things will get better for you, I promise.

H's court case, especially at the end, was so minor in comparison to what you're dealing with, I'm sure we felt a fraction of the stress that you feel right now. And there were two of us to handle everything else in the household. And even so, the last few months when it looked like he was preparing for court ... I was so stressed that I truly don't remember most of that time. The stress ate away at me in ways that I didn't even realize until it was over. When they settled it was like someone had turned on the lights and I could be happy and have energy and do fun things again. I think that will be the same for you, times a billion. You will have so much energy to pour into your own interests, into facilitating extracurriculars and kids' friendships and whatever else they need.

My point here is that right now everything else goes on the back burner for you. Until this case is over, do what you need to do to survive. I know what the T says but I say ... don't worry so much about optional stuff right now. Encourage the kids to hang out with their friends or join a sport or whatever, sure. But you don't need to be spending tons of energy on it. There is no way in hell you should drive him to volunteer an hour and a half away. Even if that would be good for him. What's even better for him is that you have as little extra stress on your plate as possible right now, because you have a full load and then some with court. Give yourself a huge pass on anything that isn't "holding it together so you and the kids can survive this in one piece."

I'm a little annoyed that DS's T said that to you. But she isn't advocating for you, she's advocating for DS, and she doesn't know that you're about at your limit. The fact that she thought volunteering an hour and a half away is feasible, is probably a testament to how well you're doing. At least relative to your situation.

The other thing is, the #1 thing that will help your DS with his depression, I think, is to not face the prospect of having to go back and be abused by his dad anymore. So yeah I mean hanging out with friends is good but if I were you I would focus my energy on what matters the most, and that's the court case.

I hear you that you don't think you're doing enough and probably none of us on this board feel like we're doing enough. And your situation is really peak awful right now. But the reality is that we all just have to take as much of the stress as we can and hope the kids can handle whatever is left. You can do this, your kids can do this and eventually your stbx will shoot himself in the foot so badly that the judge will finally do what needs to be done, I really think so.

:bighug:

WH:

Sorry if I alarmed you more than you already are.  Didn't meant to.

About your ds volunteeing and having more friends.   I'd do what I do with my girls, and offer to host social gatherings, or drive for them, but the long distance volunteering sounds unreasonable to me too.

If you can swing it, you might want to find a good trauma T to help you find more peace around your ongoing situation.  We can worry our heads off, or do everything we can, then give up expectation around whatever it is..... with the same outcome, and less worry, kwim?

I've been in a similar spot, and worried my way through it so I understand being stuck in that place.  My odest dd at the time was bent on punishing me, HARD, and both daughters felt morally obligated to fight throughout all the years I was up against the PDs, court cases, and fear, in general.  If one dd said YES, the other automatically said NO, and so it went.  There were days I barely made it through, and that was for years... it's terrible on our health.  It robs us of joy, and being present with our kids in the moment... these days will be over before you know it.  What will you miss when they're gone?

I'd make a list of regrets you want to AVOID, and remember to slow down, breath deep from your belly up... like you're filling  a vase from the bottom up, breath out slowly, and focus on what's around you.... everything that supports you... your sofa, your floors, your walls, your ceiling.. notice the space around you, and breath it INTO the upset places inside you... is it in your chest?  Your stomach?  Your throat?  WHerever the stress is.... sit with it, and breath light and space into it.... then see about attending to your list of regrets you don't want to have.

All this worry is just ONE COPING STRATEGY we can avoid if we figure out how to replace it.  Replacing it is better, IME.  A good trauma T is worth their weight in gold, IME.  Not many specialize IME, and I wish I'd found one years ago. 

The PDs are robbing you of serenity and joy.  What can you do about that?  How can you take control, of how you're feeling, back?

When we're all revved up, with our fight, flight.fawn mode in full swing, we have zero access to our frontal lobe.  Frontal lobe brain function is all aboug logical thinking, creativity, and problem solving skills.  The breathing can ingage your parasympathetic nervous system, which is right in the center of your torso.... when you hum, or deeply gargle, get into a cold shower, or tub, focus on your surroundings SANS JUDGMENT, or DANCE.... you engage parasympathetic nervous system, which shuts off the sympathetic reptilian fight or flight lower brain.... and bc of the trauma... you're default settings are lower brain, fight or flight settings.

It's hard work to build new brain pathways, but well worth the effort, IME.  EMDR, and Tapping can help a good deal too.  Sometimes I think about breathing, try to breath deeply, and push on walls with all I've got, or walk backwards in circles around a trash can or chair to GET MY MIND OUT OF fight or flight, which can be so difficult to stop. Particularly if we're judging ourselves.  Fight or flight engages middle brain Limbic System too, which is where our negative beliefs live. 

So, sitting in a comfortable safe place, finding our curiosity helps shift into observer mode.... dropping all judgment, and focusing intently on the sights, smells, colors, and spaciousness around us helps get us out of fight or flight.

Locating the distress inside our bodies.... place hands on it.... touch nose, and breathe from the bottom of the vase up, in through your nose, and slowly through the mouth..... in for 4, out for 6 seconds.  If it's really bad, start with 4 in, hold for 4, then out for 4 seconds THREE of FOUR times... that's called tactical breathing and law enforcement officers use that.

Once you're paying strict attention to your inner world, sans judgment, begin to breahte space into the discomfort, pain, or tension... whatever is showing up for you.  This can take several minutes.  Notice your peripheral vision..... what's there?

You have the power to move yourself out of reacting, and INTO RESPONDING in the best possible way to bring you more of what you want.

Look up EMDR, and Tapping.  They both help me a lot, and they're at the top of the list for very simple tools that have proven to help vets with PTSD recover. 

The story around your stress isn't important.  Locating the emotion around it, and the place it shows up in the body is.

Attend to it, bc it's going to show up over and over until you can bring attention to it with your frontal lobe engaged.  The brain is a very efficient organ.... it can process stuck emotions in a milisecond.... it just needs the chance to do it. 

It can't while the alarm bells are going off in our amygdala and limbic system.  Since we try to think our way out, we never get out. That's why we sneak up under those alarm bells, with the breathing, and convince our brain we're not really in danger.... we can calm down.

As long as our brain is in fight or flight mode, our entire biology is hijacked, and the chemicals that keep us there continue shooting into our bodies, keeping us there.

We have to sneak up, as I mentioned, from underneath those alarm bells, and convince our brain we're out of danger, and safe to slip back into frontal lobe thinking.  It's sort of like looking at those pictures that don't make sense until we look just the right way, and then they come into focus.

It's something we practice, bc it's not easy... but the more we practice, the more our brain forms new pathways.  The more we use the new pathways, the thicker they get.  The less we use the old pathways the weaker they get.

The brain builds fat around the default pathways... fat makes them fast.  We have almost zero time to catch ourselves before we switch into fight or flight.  That's why we have to sneak from the bottom up, when all our human and animal instincts are from the top down, which is consistent worry worry worry..... alarm bells..... reacting..... no ability to think OR process the difficult emotions so our brains can finish processing, and filing them where they belong. 

Once our brains file those emotions, we aren't tormented by them AND we're building new pathways. The brain is a very efficient organ.  If we practice using the new pathways, the brain will take the fat from the old default pathways, and transfer them to the new pathways, making them quicker, and more available.... giving us more time before we REACT.  Giving us more choice to respond, which also makes us more helpful to ourselves, our children, and our attorneys, etc.

When we're well rested, have healthy boundaries in place, and can STOP the hijack of our biology, or get it under control when we can't..... we're able to live much better lives, and have fewer regrets, IME.

I'm so sorry this is so darned hard, but it is.  There's nothing you can do to change the situation.

All you can do is change how you respond, and that's something we practice our entire lives.  Monks practice their entire lives too.  There's no perfect way, and being gentle with ourselves.... embracingourselves with compassion, and kindness... helps a lot,  IME.

What can you do, when you're spinning and struggling and just barely getting by?  What can you do differently?  Take a warm bath, with a candle, essential oils, Epson Salts in the water.... pracrice your breathing, and paying attention to your internal world, and surroundings?  Simple EMDR in the tub is just waving your hand back and forth, in front of your face about 20 inches out, 18" across, and following with your eyes.... as fast as your eyes can manage.... 10 times back and forth.... (back and forth is one pass btw) then paying attention, then EMDR 10 passes, then EMDR, then gage how you're feeling?  If you were at a 7 for stress... are you feeling the same?  Better?  Tapping takes more explanation, but it's easy enough to look up online. 

I will tell you this... when I was struggling all those years ago, I wish I could have heard these things in a way that I could access.  I tried to meditate, but my alarm bells wouldn't let me focus enough to utilize the tecnique.  This T has explained things so that it ties in to all the brain research, and knowledge of how our nervous systems work..... and most of all learning to trust my insticts, not judge, and to be kind to myself, no matter what.

Looking into a good Trauma T's eyes.... allowing your mirror neurons to wire into your brain acceptance, and appreciation for who you are, and what it IS you're doing...... this is a sacrifice, and a marathon, and your children's entire futures are tied into limiting harm to them.

I will tell you this.....

had I been able to model emotional regulation... which is what the above is all about....

had I been able to model what healthy boundaries ARE, how to put them in place, and gently defend them, without guilt or shame.... I believe my children would have been better off for it.

As it is, they've been through years of therapy, one chose to go to Wilderness Camp, and Therapeutica Boarding school.... that was a 100K year. 

Had I been able to model everything FOR them..... they'd be so far ahead of the game, and prepared to deal with the PDs AND every COW.... CRISIS OF THE WEEK we all deal with on a regular basis. 

These are basic skills that aren't taught in most schools, or by our FOOs, bc our culture doesn't have the information to teach IME.  It has to be mined, and practiced, and valued before we internalize it, and benefit BUT WE DO BENEFIT.

WHen I started to practice, both my girls did better too.  I'm hoping they'll pick up on the tools, and start using them too.

I'm calmer, more responsive, my oldest dd gives me hugs, and puts her head on my chest after years of what felt like aversion TO ME, but that was bc I was trying to so hard to MAKE everything all right.   When I stopped trying.  When I calmed down, and paid attention to what was right in front of me, the energy changed, and the kid's response to ME changed. 

More laughter, and light banter, and joy, and seeking me out, and asking me to do things with them.  THAT's the stuff we'll be glad of when we look back, and ask ourselves if we have any regrets< IME.

I'm sorry there's so much, and this is so long, but I just had to put that out there, and try to give you a new POV, above the stress, and pain, and fear. 

Limiting what's stolen from us, and limiting the harm to our children is something we can adress, IME. 

Learning how isn't easy, but it's well worth it, IME.

Good luck, hang in there.  You're a good mama.

::nodding::.

WH,

I can't say enough how sorry I am about your situation. Who would have thought that DS telling the GAL about the abuse would just be the start of it. I would have thought that would be enough to show how unstable stbx is. I completely understand why you feel stuck in bizzaro world. You are doing so much to support your kids and it feels like the system is making thing more difficult when one would think it's there to protect those who are vulnerable.

I felt court with BM was terrible not really for the court process itself (but that was stressful, too) but because of the daily threats. When she felt she may not get her way, she attempted to attain what she wanted the way that always works for her: threats. Practically every day there was a new threat or a nasty-gram telling SO that if he didn't give up custody, SD would hate him forever. It was terrible and it was stressful. I hope I never see that side of BM again. She also said a lot of things like "per my L, you have to do x and if you don't, you're breaking the law." We checked with SO's lawyer so much about this, eventually SO's L received a letter from BM's "L" stating "I a not representing BM and therefore and not giving her any legal advice." She was just claiming he was saying this stuff to scare SO into doing what she wanted.

If you think stbx is going to use "the kids are not doing well in school" against you, can you reach out to the school to see if the kids can stay after for homework help? I think showing that you already limited screen time and are trying to get them to focus on school and friends is good. Obviously court and everything stbx is doing is stressful for everyone, so of course they aren't doing as well in school. That is not a reflection on you. It's just the situation. And you are doing everything to can to make things better. So just make sure you can show that in court if it comes up.

And if he's going to say "I demand more time or i am going to the judge," let him. You're following the current order. Let him bother the judge and complain.

Also, with him picking up DD early from school for an appointment that he cancelled, isn't that super weird? That sounds like "skip class with me"... Or was he picking her up when school ends but she stayed after to wait for you since the appointment was cancelled?

It sounds to me that on occasion stbx is telling you exactly what he is going to bring up in court. BM did this as well. Try to use this to your advantage. At first we were so upset by her accusations, but eventually SO was like "She's telling us exactly what she's going to bring up in court. Let's try to figure out how we prove what she's saying is wrong." That's what I focused on. Maybe you can do something similar. For me, I felt better preparing for court because it felt like i was doing something. Try to find what that is for you. Maybe it's just preparing the kids' favorite dinner to make them feel better. Or putting an "I love you " note in their lunches. Find what make you feel more in control and try to do more of it. It doesn't have to be anything major.

And hhaw has great advice on self-care. Sometimes it so hard to know where to start. Actually, a  lot of my self-care went right out the window during court and nothing seemed to work. Like I meditate nightly to help with my insomnia and I was so stressed I couldn't focus my mind so couldn't sleep. What I normally did didn't work, so I wasn't sure what to do. Try out a bunch of things before you find something that soothes you.  Maybe try to plan a movie night for the kids and a couple of their friends. Like just doing something fun to keep your minds off of everything for a bit to give everyone a stress break.

Due to unforeseen circumstances, we are being reassigned to a different judge. I have no idea what will happen now.

Still have no idea what's happening. Will be seeing the new judge in the next week or so. Hopefully this one 'gets it' and doesn't delay anything too much. I really need this to be over.

Saw a different type of professional today, one for one of the kids and nothing to do with legal proceedings (sorry to not be more specific). This person had me go from start to finish with *child's* life. Told me that after seeing *child* they would most likely be placing a call to CPS, depending on what *child* told them. This professional is shocked the kids aren't being listened to, and said once the kids are past age 13 (Which DD will be in a few months), they have a voice. Well, not according to what I've been told and what I've seen. Hopefully this person can make a difference, even though it's not really their role to do so.

Warned me several times that CPS would likely be called, but that it didn't mean an investigation would be opened. Has some serious concerns (if what I say is true). Not sure how to address them, but I feel like someone is listening and actually gets what the kids are going through. Not sure if they can do anything about it, but chalk one up for whiteheron not being crazy and overreacting.

Which leads me to ask...why is no one listening to the kids?? Why are they all listening to stbx instead? It is his $$? His ability to manipulate and control? His disorder is showing to the court...so why?? I am past the point of frustration here.

I think CPS involvement would be very helpful in your situation.
But, CPS won't likely do much without concrete concerns, it may not go beyond the first call.  If they DO take the call and decide to investigate, they will find a mom who is being protective, so it might be tough for them to open a case.  Nonetheless, I wouldn't be afraid of getting a call from CPS.. I would welcome it, another ally for your kids.

I am all for it. We need help. If this person calls, DS's t calls...maybe they can't ignore it?

stbx does not have a safe home for a depressed "in crisis" child. Unless stbx gets a heads up, CPS should have no trouble finding evidence of this in a home visit.

It sounds like you found someone who gets it. I'm glad the kids have another voice and ally in this. I also cannot believe the kids are not being listened to. When SD was 14, we were told where she wanted to live would have a lot of weight in court (maybe it differs per state, but if this professional is also like WTH?...). I hope this person is able to help you and the kids.

No call to CPS. Yet.

They will call the GAL though, which hopefully helps DS. Didn't see enough flags to warrant no time with stbx - since stbx isn't 'bad' 100% of the time, DS is usually ok with him. It's just when stbx is 'bad' he's really bad and it causes serious problems. A shame it's unpredictable.

They will also call stbx to tell him what he needs to do to have a safe house. If he doesn't listen to them, then maybe I have a little bit of ground to stand on. He doesn't like being told what to do and believes he knows best (claims kids know better than to touch his stuff, therefore he doesn't need to lock it up).

:: crossing fingers, toes and eyes for good progress, WH.::.

Adding to my Family Therapy post because I didn't want to hijack my own thread.

For now, custody will remain the same. New judge is big on not causing disruptions to the kids' schedules/activities/time with friends. Judge wants this to be as stress free for the kids as possible, so says we will go with what we've been doing for the time being. stbx has been pushing to get back on the old schedule asap (which included overnights), so I'm sure he's less than thrilled.

Judge agreed that DS's mental health is paramount and takes precedence over everything else.

Judge also agreed with us that stbx needs to keep DS on his health insurance until he's 25 no matter what. Judge essentially agreed that all the sticking points on the settlement agreement are frivolous. I am not responsible for expenses on the house stbx will be selling. There were a few others and the judge agreed with me.

My L says it's a great settlement agreement - the way stbx's L wrote it around custody is very vague, which she tells me benefits the kids. There will be no push to follow a timeline, or force overnights. If I disagree with something stbx proposes, I take him to court, since he won't be able to enforce what isn't written.

Only sticking point - I have to give stbx joint Legal custody or we go to trial. This would last until kids turn 18.

What do you think joint legal custody is?

What does your attorney say it means?

Do you have the power to make all medical and school decisions on your own?

Could this be a  stepping stone for PD to take you to court anyway, and ask for more more more, but WITH joint legal custody on his side?

It's medical and religious. Medical is my big concern. If I refuse and take this to trial, I risk 50/50 physical custody. The old agreement was 65/35. Right now it's even less.

Since the kids' wellness teams are in place, stbx can't refuse to let the kids see their doctors/therapists, etc. Anyone new would have to be jointly decided on. Until the kids are 18. My L is very doubtful I would get full legal custody even at trial. It's generally not done in my state. The kids' school is set and it's in the agreement that stbx will continue to pay their school costs (private) and their college costs. 

As of now, since it's not in the stipulation, we technically have joint legal custody. There are provisions in the mediation agreement that prevent stbx from trying to access the kids' therapy records - which was the major concern in the first place. If stbx starts denying medical treatment, I take stbx to court.

I will speak with my L about it just in case I'm missing something. We have a meeting to go over all of this next week.

Since court, stbx has been acting weird - almost nice, and joking through text. My alarm bells are clanging. IDK what's going on. DD just texted me from her dad's house and told me that his guns are still out in the open. I will have to tell my L, have her tell the GAL, I will tell the T and the new professional. IDK what else to do. He was told to make his house safe, he hasn't (I honestly didn't expect that he would), and now DD is anxious and worried abut her brother.

What about calling the police, Whiteheron? If you have court papers that say he needs to have weapons out of children's reach, isn't that enough to stop it?  Until next time, then call the police again.  Will establish a pattern of dangerous behavior that may help in your custody trial.

When I can take some direct action against the constant victimization experienced at the hands of NPD/s, I feel better (for the moment, anyway).

SO and BM have joint custody with SO as the custodial guardian. Their custody is also vague, "Visitation as agreed upon" which his L also said gives him the power to step in and say "I'm not comfortable with the overnights yet" and to start them up when we were comfortable (this was after a suicide attempt by BM). For a while we wouldn't allow SD over at BM's unless another adult we were comfortable with was there (Like grandma). BM was very willing to comply for some strange reason. Maybe she was afraid if she didn't, SO would try for sole custody? IDK.

The L advised us against going for sole custody becasue he felt it may have been difficult to keep becasue you can only use the evidence from the last court custody agreement to present. Since SO was still using the agreement from when they first separated, if BM took us back to court we could use anything she's done since 2012. Where if he got sole custody in 2016 (or whenever it was), and BM petitioned to change the agreement soon after, we could only use as evidence anything she did from the 2016 agreement on. So if this happened, we couldn't couldn't bring up the suicide attempts if SO won sole custody because those were before the newest custody agreement. I don't know if this varies per state though. Maybe ask your L.  Plus we had other factors that we felt would be against us. Like BM filed a lot of petitions that year so we were afraid once she felt better she may file again. And SD wouldn't say anything bad about BM to the law guardian, so we didn't have a lot of evidence about the verbal abuse to SD. There were two times SD called us to come get her and wouldn't talk about what happened. I feel you have more evidence on stbx's antics/bad behavior, so maybe this wouldn't be an issue. It's just something to think about (if it's how it goes in your state. I have no idea on that).

Maybe ask at the meeting what exactly your L means by the vagueness benefiting the kids. Ask your L if you can say something to stbx like "until the guns are put away, I am not comfortable with the kids visiting." He was told to make the house safe, and until it is you do not want the kids there. Maybe stbx needs to buy a gun cabinet with a lock and then show he's locked the guns up before the kids are allowed to visit. Maybe this is an option. IDK.

WH, this sounds mostly really good.

I will say that in our situation, joint custody is by far not the biggest problem with H's parenting plan. BM is more functional than your ex to be sure. But my thought is that parenting time with her has a lot more detrimental effect on the kids than her ability to make decisions for them. And there are a LOT of important decisions to be made in the day to day - you'll be the one making those.

In my state I know you can have a provision that designates a final decision maker  if there's a disagreement between the parents. Usually one of the parents but sometimes even a third party. If you could get that into the plan, I'd have no qualms with full custody at all. And like you said, you can always take him to court. The sad reality is that you will likely end up in court anyway.