settlement v court

[sevenyears]

The judge hearing my divorce and custody cases pressures us to come to settlements. In the divorce case, it didn't work, in spite of several attempts on my side to come to an agreement. In the end, she ruled more or less in my stbxh uocpd's favor and found me to be the "instigator" of breaking up the marriage. She didn't recognize that I tried to solve our problems before asking for a divorce, and initiated nine months of unsuccessful mediation, as well as several exchanges of letters between our lawyers in attempts to divorce and settle. Everything failed. I am at fault for not accepting his terms. Now, we are being pushed to settle on custody as well and have a meeting next week. I am skeptical that we will be able to settle based on my experience with stbxh. I will come with several options and can show some flexibility. I know that no matter how hard I try to find an agreement, he will refuse everything unless he gets 100% what he wants. So, I predict that we will go to court, and worry that the judge will agree with him in the end after putting children through more contested divorce, evaluations, etc. What has your experience been? What has helped?

ps - this question stems from a topic related to school choices in the parenting subgroup.

[Spygirl]

You must be so frustrated, this is a difficult situation.

Months ago i read another poster here who was having difficulties with her PD. She mentioned that he only wanted things that were precious to her, even if he had no use for them. He only wanted to cause emotional  pain, 'win', by denying her.  She discovered that if she became unemotional about them, seemed to care less, he was less interested in keeping them, and reversing his position on most of the items.
I experimented with my PDH, as i needed to get things out if his house. I discovered the same.  I have used that technique now thru the process of divorce. I am mediating. I am also paying for it. I have been able to do ok with the proceedings, we are at settlement  phase now.
I certainly dont "fight " over things. I have to be very unemotional and matter of fact. I have not had a spectacular outcome, i dont know that you can with these people, but it is acceptably ok. My PD will actually mak a demand or statement and look at my reaction to gauge his next action. So wierd. I discuss nothing of my current life, and almost no info of future plans.
I did make one demand, that it reflect in the language that alimony be deposited electronically in my account within 72 hrs of his  electronic payroll. If it did not happen, that i would immediately file for payroll deductions through his company. He said;
"If you do that then my job may dig around to see what else i dont pay on time"

I said;
"Nah, its going to be easy for you be on time each payday this way, because youre responsible for your bills. You just put it on auto and forget about it.  I dont see any problems." of course he would not disagree with that!

With kids and custody, i dont know how this may help you. I understand wanting to keep them as close to you as possible. Maybe this will set off a lightbulb for you that will help.

[sevenyears]

Thanks Spygirl. I think that is part of it - namely, he wants something because it is dear to me and he wants to win/control me still. That might work on some of our assets and the overall divorce. I'm not sure how to do that with custody.

[hhaw]

Lord, seven.... is this case with the SAME Judge?

IF that's the case, then you might need to find an attorney this Judge adores, or trusts, or has a hard time saying NO to, IME.

Sometimes who you hire is as important as the evidence you give them to fight with, IME.

And... it sounds like your ex HAD that figured out, AND maybe the Judge was jaded, and bitter, and unable to care about either of you..... with a particular disdain for women, or how your actions were framed by opposing counsel.

I don't want to create discord, but everyone in the courthouse talks.  People go on vacation, and hear stories about other people, and they repeat them, and they sometimes get to our Judge's ears, and Judges are human, and biased with their own experiences bearing down on their decisions.

My initial family court Judge was..... probably not a bad guy.  I read where he was incensed that minorities were treated so badly, that he chose law, and jumped in to DO something about it.  Whatever his experience was, he looked at me like I was a harlet wearing a scarlet A, and he froze my blood threatening ME..... in the courtroom..... he said.....

if what he heard was true, "someone would be going to jail."  He stared daggers through me, and maybe that's bc he'd been told I was a liar.... I'd failed to file charges when I was choked by my stbx.  I'd failed to include the abuse IN the initial divorce complaint, bc my attorney said it just added time and trouble.

At that point, I completely flipped out, and went about finding another attorney.... who could HELP me.  Obviously, this attorney was ill prepared, and not in that Judge's favor.  I found 2 I preferred over my second choice.  One was out of town, and the other told me he'd hire Attorney X if it was his divorce.  I gave up sane, informed connection to an attorney who understood my situation, and was able to HEAR me when I spoke.

What I hired, instead, was an attorney who was likely N, unable to hear me, and charged me 25K up front, hoping I'd go away bc in his words, I was "the worst kind of client."

I was a sniveling female, and fear made me appear "bitchy" to him, and all men.... and that was what he said many times as we went through our paces.

The reason I put up with him was bc he'd been the man who GOT THE JUDGE over my case THROUGH law school.  I mean, the Judge wasn't smart enough to do the work, or had some learning disability... it wasn't explained to me, but that Judge lit up when he saw my attorney, and he laughed like a little child.  It was a wise move to change attorneys, but it wasn't enough to get me through that divorce, bc my attorney, as I've said, didn't understand what WE were up against.  All he saw was his ego, and winning, and besides.... one of his clients had been shot in the head in front of him, and he'd had an attempt made on his life so.....I should just smile, and be pretty... maybe  he'd date me IF the marriage didn't work out. 

He also explained that another of his clients was asked to give a blow job to her stbx BEFORE the stbx would sign the Agreement.  My Attorney suggested she do so, but failed to say whether that Agreement went through or not.   My attorney explained I'd have to suck it up, and agree to things I wasn't comfortable with also.... mostly to do with my safety, my children's safety, and dropping the divorce (I knew I'd never ever ever be able to serve stbx with again) in order to get an Agreement in place that wasn't enforceable, bc, as my attorney said, and seemed to forget, it's impossible to enforce anything when you're truly dealing with a criminal.   That came to pass, btw,  even though my attorney tried, almost getting me killed in the process.

I will tell you that that same attorney handed me a bill for 30K for "crafting" the Agreement that couldn't be enforced, after I TOLD EVERYONE it would never be enforced, and assured me it could, and would be...... threatened me, ganged up on me, and intimidated me into signing, but there were a few things I demanded, and help my guns on.  The Temp Restraining Order was still in place, and I didn't drop the divorce and wouldn't have to until the stbx complied.

The Agreement was a RECONCILIATION AGREEMENT, btw.   Lots of money involved.  It made my attorney feel like a big man to get it in place.  Even though I assured him it would never ever ever happen, he patted me on the head, treated me like I was an insane woman "who needed to be talked out of her tree" and he forced it through by threatening to drop me after telling everyone I refused a good deal he insisted I take.

So I did what I could, I covered my ass where I could, and I took it.  It seemed to me that everyone involved, including many of my own family members, were in favor of my staying in that marriage. 

I learned a lot in all that....

1.  If you send inconsistent messages..... say.... while trying to negotiate with your PD for something you need..... you'll be punished by the court.  You can't appear conflcted about the divorce, and proceeding, or you'll be punished. 

If I had to guess, you did a lot of backwards bending to attempt to settle with your stbx, and he documented it all.  Presented it, and convinced the Court you were somehow unstable, conflicted, didn't know what you wanted some of the time, and maybe unreasonable, considering what we sometimes have to say and do BC of the PD's actions (actions that are behind the scenes, in private, behind closed doors.)

It certainly happened to me.  My first divorce was kicked out of the courts, and my PD RAN OUT OF THAT COURTROOM leaving all his documents behind....  bc he knew I'd never ever ever have the chance to serve him again.  I'd been tricked by my own actions, and the PD had played me, knowing what I'd do, and how the court would perceive it.

Of course, the PD DID refuse to be served again, which upset the Judge, who got angry, re instated the first divorce, and ruled on a TRO from the bench, without my asking for it. 

Now, I went from completely demoralized, hopeless, and despairing to being back in the game again, and that's been the last 12 years or so for me.  Ups and downs.  The same game, choosing different champions (attorneys) in different jurisdictions, and with different sets of skills.  Some are great trial attorneys, with huge brains, who GET IT the first time you speak, but honestly, they're also Ns or sociopaths, and difficult to deal with in their own way.  Adding pressure, and stress, and despair all their own. 

I finally figured that out during the very last case we tried...... and for the first time I smiled, and winked at my sister as that attorney yelled at me, complained but still went to pull documents from her files FOR me, bc I'd asked, bc I needed them.  She complained about everything, and I finally figured out she'd do her job, sort of, regardless of her threats.  I finally stopped fearing she'd sucker punch me too, bc she liked to win more than abuse me, which was a revelation.

I don't have as much problem with those attorneys, bc at least they're working for me, than I do with opposing counsel who works to harm children, namely MY children.  I put them on a shelf above all the incompetent, jaded, bitter, and PD.  The ones who work for evil, in the name of evil, with enough information to KNOW what they're working for.  Those are the ones that I don't understand, am told should steer clear of, bc if I report them, or file complaints against them THEN THEY MIGHT COME AFTER ME PERSONALLY.

Ain't that something?  And these warnings are coming from my attorneys.... who KNOW these folks are basically self ruled, and rarely hold anyone accountable.  Sometimes, bc of mingling money, is what I was told brings some consequences.

And you know what?  We stick to the mission.... we do what the PD does, we scheme, we find out what we can about our Judge, bc they all have rulings we can research, they all have personal histories that factor in, they all have favorite attorneys, and they all tend to favor certain litigants, and punish others.... more or less.

THAT's the game, and IF we know enough to make appointments with all the attorneys our Judge favors.... if we hire the best one for the job, considering that relationship with the Judge, their competence, ability to try a case, should it be necessary, and their ability to NOT sabotage us, bc they're first interest is pleasing opposing counsel, which I've seen over and over at my expense, THEN we mitigate the harm PDs do to us and our children.

Honestly, had I known I was entering into a legal system that would put me in a position to fight for my mental and physical safety..... that would seemingly work FOR the PDs to put Agreements in place almost most certainly ensuring my emotional suicide..... perhaps worse...... then I would have approached the entire enterprise differently.

The first 2 family law attorneys are hired were on the top 100 list in our city.  They cost $800.00 an hour, and both of them knew very little for nothing about PDs in court, even though they claimed to have "seen everything."  They hand't.  If I had 10 dollars every time I had to hear one of my male attorneys say "He can't DO that," when I told them EXACTLY what my stbx pd WOULD MOST CERTAINLY DO NEXT.... I'd have a lot of money right now.

So, when dealing with the legal system I find we're:
1.  Not heard
2.  If we're heard, we're not believed.
3. If we're believed we're often seen as too much trouble to work for.  After all, it's dangerous at times to have certain PDs angry and pointed at you, and one of my attorneys was stalked with men sitting in cars outside her home during the last trial.  She was intimidated, and shaken to her core.  I'm lucky she went ahead with the case, and fought the way she did. 
4.  If we're heard we're sometimes punished for saying things the wrong way.... telling our audience what they MUST believe, DO, and FEEL, which is always a mistake.  We can be undermined and sabotaged by our own council if we make that mistake once or twice, IME.  I've been told that to my face, point blank, by my second divorce attorney, and yes, it was a threat.
I think the above is what I was referencing when you asked the question on the other thread. 

Telling professionals what they must do, instead of listing the facts, without expectation, therefore allowing them to come to their own conclusions is very important, IME.  In all walks of life, it's helpful, honestly.  Sometimes I forget, like when speaking to siblings, that I can't just be frank to save time.... I have to come in the nicey nice back door, present facts without expectation, and for heaven's sake wait for them to come to their conclusions in their own frickin time.  It's maddening, but good to remember, always.

We can speak without thinking to many court officers who can punish us.... therapists, attorneys, GALs, and Judges..... even the Judge's law clerk, or a file clerk can say things behind closed doors that might have a positive or negative affect on how the Judge feels about us and our case, and how they'll rule.

Your Judge might have taken a cruise with someone your ex knows well, and told stories about you that influenced the Judge, for instance.  And that's one more reason to hire the best attorney to handle your Judge, and case.

I've rambled on, and am unable to clearly and quickly explain how complicated court with someone willing to lie, cheat and steal..... leverage their own children's safety to 'WIN"..... can be.   What's involved.  WHY sometimes things work against us, even if we're documenting our case, and proving it, while the PD fails to prove anything they've said.

Sometimes it comes down to our TELLING THE EXACT truth, which was what I was doing at first.  It made me sound insane, and unstable, and the PD was tailoring all his "stories" for each person he told it to.  He was getting people to HATE me, bc of
1.  I spent every dollar he made, poor dear, and he couldn't stop working, bc of it, and then I filed divorce bc he was working so much and then wouldn't give him a chance to be a better father and husband..he gave all kinds of over the top examples of my spending.... at expensive stores, 1500K purses, 50K credit card bills, none of it true, mind you, but he had lots of people hating my lazy, selfish, greedy arse, and they were whipped into quite a state over it. 

My husband AT FIRST hired a very sweet attorney, known for settling cases, who advocated FOR HIM,  AND he also had a crooked attorney advocating for him behind the scenes, seeking out audiences with the Judge we weren't privy to, and explaining what kind of gal and mother I was..... who knows what that story was about, but it explains WHY the Judge gave me the evil eye, and threatened ME when talking about my husband's assault AGAINST ME.
2. and 3. and 4.  aren't worth going into, IMO. 

That the PDs craft their case against us SO IT MAKES SENSE.... so people can understand it, is very important.

That we blather on about true PD facts, which makes us appear unstable.  It's wise to stop, take stock of our evidence, and put together a case that's supported by that evidence, leaving out everything we can't prove, IME.  Or at least LOOK at our case from that POV, kwim?

And I don't know what happend at your trial.  You may never know, but it could help to think about who your Judge is, who they rule in favor of as a matter of habit, attorney wise, and consider what might have gone wrong behind the scenes, when you've done a good job of proving your case, IME.

The last time that bumbling Family Court Judge ruled against me, he HAD to reverse his decision bc he'd gone against statutes and violated all the oaths he'd taken... his file clerk was pregnant, and seemed to GET IT, and he forced us to try the case again, terribly expensive, and cost me more than money in emotional safety, family ties, and mental health, I'll tell you.

That he went so far out of his way to screw me, actually worked for me, bc he would likely have been overturned in appeals court.  Judge's don't like being reversed, or so I'm told.

The sneaky ones, who undermine and harm in small ways, that aren't obvious or apparent, seem to be more difficult to overcome, as seems to be the case with your divorce, seven.

That speaks of a PD who's sharp, under control, and very intelligent/practiced in the legal system, and in control of counsel capable of plotting, and keeping their cool..... resisting the urge to emotionally act, draw attention, or over do the mission, which is a feature in PD tactics, IME.

I'd have had a harder time overcoming this hell had the PDs been capable of being subtle, biding their time, and doing half what they ended up doing in order to win.  They actually undermined their case, and SHOWED everything what they were doing, rather than depending on me to blather on about it only. 

At one point one of the witnesses they manipulated LIED ABOUT MY ATTORNEY"S actions,and then the game was on bc THEN my attorney understood it was happening TO ME, just as I'd said it was.  Up to that point, my attorney had dismissed my terror and complaints, shrugged her shoulders, and said "better you than me."  Without a care.  I remember weeping that I was a "good mother" on her office steps, asking for help as I headed into what appeared to be a nightmare psych evaluation/character assassination set up..... and I had no choice but to go.  I'd been taken apart in a psych evaluation THAT WASN'T ABOUT ME.... and now that T was referring me to one of her pals for an actual psych eval, bc that was the mission she'd been given by the PDs.... to get me into a psych eval.... it was a witch hunt, a complete farce, and you know what?

The T doing my psych eval wasn't on board with the PDs, and couldn't be manipulated by the referring T.... she SAW what was happening, and she ended up being OUR witness in that courtroom, which made the crazy T appear even crazier than she already did, which harmed the PDs case, which meant they lost, then lost their appeal, then lost the hearing over paying all my attonrey's fees, and that was when things changed, for real, IMO. 

Just as I said it would happen.

Just as I said the Judge would feel about her cherry picked court appointed T being taken over and made a fool of by opposing counsel, and the PDs..... it all came true, and I had to talk my attorney through it as she pressured me to settle, and give up things that would have been certain emotional suicide FOR ME, and for my children, maybe worse......

my attorney, based on the facts involved, believed we'd get our clocks cleaned in front of a Judge she didn't know well, who she suspected would rule against us, bc opposing counsel was a minor Judge IN THAT COUNTY, and that minor Judge had already taken over the court appointed T, and was wielding her like a hammer against us..... my attorney was honestly feeling defeated, and like settling was the only choice we had.

I remember phoning another attorney, who was the most stellar example of legal minds I've had the honor to meet, and he gave me what he'd always provided....
facts about my Judge..... "she's the best Judge you could draw for your case, hhaw."
Facts about my case..... mostly he wondered why we were trying a visitation case and fraud case, when the original case was a custody case.  As smart as he was.... as much as he'd seen IN MY LIFE, and as much as he understood about the PDs involved... he couldn't wrap his mind around what my new female attorney was trying to understand, bc I was asking her to.... that we weren't just trying a custody case.... in fact, I'd learned through the manipulated Court Appointed Attorney that the case was no longer a custody case at all.  It had turned into a visitation suit, without my side knowing or understanding. 

WTH?

And..... my attorney, bc she'd experienced everything I said as TRUTH, listened to me, and she was sharp as a tack, and able to hear facts ONCE, and assimilate that information effectively enough to SEE how we'd have to try 3 cases, bring ALL our documents, and she learned from my expert witness, my stellar attorney GIFTING me his time, wisdom, and truth about what I was up against.

To be honest, I believe he was on the phone WITH my Judge, or with people who had her ear, and he was expressing concerns, and sharing his truth.... particularly in the area of my divorce, and criminal case that had been tried in 4 days, which meant something my Judge would understand, and factor into THIS case.

See..... this is many rabbit holes... to be in court with PDs, IME.  Experienced PDS, in the court system, have a let up.  Those willing to employ a scorched earth policy, which was my case, are willing to destroy their own lives in order to "win". 

If we know what we're up against, ARE we dealing with a scorched earth policy PD?  Is the Judge partial to opposing counsel?  Do we have the best attorney to try a case in front of THIS judge?  Can we improve our chances for the best possible outcome?

And... have we made peace with the fact the best possible outcome will be unthinkable, and harmful to our children, and there are levels to these things we can't afford to get despondent over.... we need to accept it, make adjustments as we can, hire the attorney we fell will do the best job, then figure out how we should speak to that attorney to keep them on board, and in our corner.  Some need to have their egos stroked, and never questioned.  It once cost me 4K to let an attonrey down gently, so she wouldn't sabotage me on another case.... no lie. 
And she was a TERRRRIBLE attorney, who sabotaged me out of ignorance and longing to settle my cases quickly, so she'd appear effective, and she almost drove me over the edge, and cost me my sanity... everything.  Firing her was necessary, but then she was second chair on my criminal case, which could have put me in prison for 30 years.  I had 2 young children to raise... I couldn't go to prison for 30 years!  And so, I treaded lightly, paid her off to NOT hold anything against me, and in return she made my most excellent attorney laugh, did some dirty work.... sweet talked the Judge in charge of setting bail for me,.... my attorney laughed and told her to "take one for the team."  It was disgusting to watch, but you know what?  I wanted her to chat up the judge, make him laugh, and perhaps SIT IN HIS LAP if it got me back to my children.

That terrible attorney had put me in touch with the most excellent attorney, and she wanted to sit second chair, for that referral, and my attorney agreed to allow it. 

The courts are filled with human beings, and we're all flawed, at best, and jaded and bitter more often, bc look around... everyo9ne is telling impossibly different stories in familly court.  Who should be believed?  Put yourself in the shoes of a Judge or family law attorney.  I've done it many times, and it's daunting, and defeating, and I couldn't do that job, I know I couldn't, bc of my experience.  It's likely I could be manipulated by smart, practiced, sociopathic litigants (male and female) bc of my history, and bc the people dealing with them are often out of their minds by the time they GET TO A COURTROOM, which was pretty much the case for me.

And with that, I apologize for going on and on, and hope there's something useful in all that... I can't re read to edit,  bc I just don't want to read it again.

It's here, and there are lessons, I hope, others may benefit from.

Seven.... is this the same Judge?  What did your attorney say about that Judge?  About what happened with the ruling?  Did your attorney list anything the Judge took issue with? 

I'd like to know how your Judge tends to rule.

I'd like to know who the Judge's Law clerk would hire IF HER SISTER WAS TRYING A CASE IN FRONT OF THIS JUDGE.

Someone knows who would be best to try your case..... another attorney, or a file clerk, or an intern. 

I've had to fire attorneys, who had the talk, but couldn't walk the walk, do my homework, and hire other attorneys to put my faith in.

Having faith in our attorneys is emotional strength, IME.

If our attorney is incompetent, or ignorant, or both.... it's detrimental to our mental health, IME, particularly when our children's safety is involved. 

[Rose1]

hhaw, a lot of what you are saying resonates with regard to DH's case. His ex had a scorched earth mentality, and hired a lawyer that was crooked at best. He was on his last warning from the bar association so it's not a supposition. It appeared to DH that his attorney (who was supposed to be a pit bull but wasn't) and the judge were frightened or intimidated by this guy. Since then we have decided the most likely scenario is that he had something on all of them. (he died not long after and the world's a better place for it). His last act was to attempt to defraud DH of half of a tax return which quickly became a "mistake" once DH said he intended to refer it to the bar association and that he was aware the lawyer was on his last complaint.

Nothing else makes sense. DH's lawyer organised a meeting with OC and the judge,  DH not invited, and then he was told what was going to happen. Ex had committed bank fraud amongst other things and DH wasn't allowed time to pursue the bank for a refund but told to pay it out of his 401k. A considerable amount. Which should have been partly covered by the bank at least because some clear bank rules were violated in setting up credit cards - ie not in her name or gender (that's a bank no no). This would have saved him up to $40k but the judge said no and rushed it through and threatened consequences when DH objected.

At some point in this the judge took DH aside and told him quietly that due to the local divorce laws she had no option but to rule against his best interest (which technically wasn't true as the same court did the total opposite with a friend a couple of months later) and that his best interests would be served in a different jurisdiction. She then did not grant the divorce as requested by DH's ex and changed it to a legal separation.

None of this made sense and in fact the advice was so weird that it went over his head at first. Then someone else told him the same thing and he took the opportunity to get residence in a different state. When the divorce finally came to court there he was too poor for a lawyer and had to represent himself. His ex's lawyer tried to uphold previous rulings under contract law. However on researching it was found that her crooked lawyer had neglected to arrange a gal for her (being obviously mentally ill and possibly incompetent) and that the rulings in the previous jurisdiction were invalid. That might have explained the fear everyone seemed to have of his ex because she brought the case but certainly no one's best interest were served and all property was eventually lost due to a court ordered management scheme which had serious conflicts of interest.

We believe the whole thing was some sort of rort to relieve people of their property and on sell it at a higher price after the divorce. Now it sounds totally weird to be saying this stuff without proof but as I was often told in my job as an accountant, if it doesn't make sense then there's something wrong. And too many things didn't make sense and were not allowed to be raised.

[Penny Lane]

Hi sevenyears,
It sounds like some others here have had a really, really terrible experience with court (and I'm so sorry for you all!)

My DH had a slightly different experience - I thought the judge was generally fair although I was really, really frustrated that he wouldn't do more to protect the kids. He was NOT interested in changing things at all. Hopefully your judge is at least fair like that in this go-around.

When it really looked like DH was going to have to go to trial it was suggested to him that he give the judge several options of things he could live with. So for custody that could mean "I want 60/40 and here's what that schedule would look like and why that's best for the kids. If not, I'd like 50/50 with every other week." Stuff like that. My understanding is that should show the judge that you're willing to compromise and you're not entrenched in one position. I think your lawyer can even draft several documents and show the judge, I'd be OK with any of these.

Good luck, I know you're in a really tough position here and I hope this helps.

[Rose1]

Yes, hoping for a good result. Despite everything taking the judges advice also eventually resolved a case more quickly than the previous proceedings. Sometimes help comes from unexpected quarters.

[sevenyears]

OMG HHaw - what have you been through? XXX.

I signed on with a big name firm - known for fighting tough for women. The first lawyer took a pretty aggressive approach. She said the risk was that a judge could see me then as the problem. She didn't know anything about the judge, and their rulings on divorce/custody are not public records.  My lawyer left the firm though while my PI was being heard. I decided to stay with the firm, rather than leave with her. The judge seems to think I am the problem. The new lawyer with the old firm is taking a more conservative approach, but the damage seems to have been done with the PI and now the divorce ruling. I have appealed it - not to change the actual decision, but to put some of my concerns that she ignored on file with new judges. Judges in the first instance are assigned depending on the last name of the defendant. And, it is almost impossible to dismiss a judge. So yes, this will be the same judge in the custody case. My stbxh lawyer also comes originally from the same firm - she left it though before I ever approached them. I had hoped it could be advantageous since our lawyers can talk to each other. But, in my experience, there isn't such an advantage when a PD won't/can't compromise.

You're right, PDs want to win and will stop at nothing. They excel in this system since they are so good at manipulating the truth.