I think this is what annoys me the most to be honest.....
Brother goes to see my Dad once a week. He lives locally and has no kids - so he sends his wife (who doesnt work) to see Dad once a week also.
I live 20+ miles away got kids (one with aspergers) and ill wife. I go see him when I can - up to once a week.
I've just come back from hols in Florida. So bit of jet lag this week (Im in UK). Kids back in school, both of us back in work.
Remember that brother is away for week from today.
So Dad calls - "Well x (brothers wife) usually comes up on a Thursday, brother comes up on a Saturday, you come on a Sunday". "Since he's not here this week, I know you've got work but I'll see you thursday evening, then I'd like to go out for the day Saturday and you can do some shopping for me on Sunday". It gets better. "If I give you my laundry on Thursday, you're wife can do it and give it back to me Saturday or Sunday".
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I don't ever remember agreeing to be his part-time carer. I honestly, do not have the time to do this. BUT, in his head, I have no choice.
The laundry thing is a joke. I've refused MANY times in the past. He still asks......
Thing is he doesn't need help. He could manage easily on his own. Hes just very lazy and likes to get everyone running around for him as well.
I know I should treat this like water off a ducks back but it makes me SO ANGRY.....
Hes upset now because I said I don't have time to do all of this and I'll see him Sunday.
You did the right thing. He thinks if he keeps saying it you will eventually wear down and agree. You did miss one good opportunity....to put in a dig that if he needs so much assistance (that you are unable to provide) he should really consider and assisted living. Bring that up EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION. When he argues that YOU should be doing things for him point out that you CAN'T which is why you say ASSISTED LIVING would be best for him. If he is going to be a broken record about you coming over be one back about assisted living. Have fun with it.
Quote from: lkdrymom on September 10, 2019, 05:48:18 AM
You did the right thing. He thinks if he keeps saying it you will eventually wear down and agree. You did miss one good opportunity....to put in a dig that if he needs so much assistance (that you are unable to provide) he should really consider and assisted living. Bring that up EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION. When he argues that YOU should be doing things for him point out that you CAN'T which is why you say ASSISTED LIVING would be best for him. If he is going to be a broken record about you coming over be one back about assisted living. Have fun with it.
Yes I should have said that. I have in the past and all I get is "I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
I've had the conversation MANY times about how I will do my best to help but I've got other responsibilities. In one ear and out the other. His standard thing is "Can you make a big effort to do X?" I've told him about 10 times I find this comment offensive and to say that is implying that I don't do it because I can't be bothered.
Even when I remind him of my other commitments he says "well you're family will have to understand won't they?"
Honestly, sometimes I think if I told him my house had burned down, I'm in hospital, my entire family are dead, he'd say "Aw thats sad. So are you going to be able to do my shopping at the weekend?"
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 07:26:39 AM
"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! :roll:
Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 10, 2019, 08:05:25 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 07:26:39 AM
"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! :roll:
Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!
Oh yes hes a master at it.
I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.
It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.
You can instill boundaries and enforce them but as long as theres contact he will always be chipping away at them. There is no compromise.
Were I in your shoes... Every time I got the big effort comment it would be an automatic no. Just that. No. Full stop.
My UbpdM was complaining nonstop about money. How she can't afford anything with the extremely generous alimony she gets. So every time she bright up money problems I started asking if she applied for disability yet. It's a taboo topic. She's terrified of it. Poof! Money complaints all but ended. :smug:
Quote from: Hazy111 on September 10, 2019, 09:03:36 AM
You can instill boundaries and enforce them but as long as theres contact he will always be chipping away at them. There is no compromise.
Oh yes hes certainly persistent!
Quote from: Andeza on September 10, 2019, 10:16:06 AM
Were I in your shoes... Every time I got the big effort comment it would be an automatic no. Just that. No. Full stop.
My UbpdM was complaining nonstop about money. How she can't afford anything with the extremely generous alimony she gets. So every time she bright up money problems I started asking if she applied for disability yet. It's a taboo topic. She's terrified of it. Poof! Money complaints all but ended. :smug:
It REALLY winds me up. "make a big effort". Are you kidding me?
I'm sure he thinks I'm sat at home drinking beer - I wish!
Of course, what he really means is "put me before the rest of your family and I'm going to do what I can to get my way".
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 10, 2019, 08:05:25 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 07:26:39 AM
"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! :roll:
Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!
Oh yes hes a master at it.
I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.
It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.
All he needs is a little help...well no he doesn't . He wants a lot of help. When he says that you reply "That's the thing Dad...you see it as only a little help but it is much more than I am able to give so that is why you need to consider assisted living." Try to work "assisted living" into damn near every sentence that you can.
I agree, name drop "assisted living" like its you besty bestest friend forever! Make it ever-present! He'll call less.
Definitely work "assisted living" into the conversation as much as possible - and DO leave brochures for AL, before you leave. :ninja:
That way he'll know you're not only thinking about it, but have stopped at a few - with luck, that should get him to call you less and less.
The bonus is he *knows* you were "busy" and couldn't make time for him - but you *could* make time for visiting a couple of AL facilities. He won't know if you spent 2 hours, touring facilities, or just popped in to get the brochures - but it will *definitely* make him uneasy, and hopefully reliant on anybody NOT named P123! :evil2:
:hug:
All true - in his head all he needs is a "little help" which kids should be happy to do for their parents anyway because its they're job. BUT 90% of the time its not things he NEEDS at all.
The worse thing is when there is an easy way to solve the problem and he wont do it. The grocery delivery is an example. He will moan hes got no food and expect me to drive 50 mile+ round trip take 2 hours to do shopping for him because home delivery costs £2 and he doesnt like it. What? Seriously? (In the UK, gas/petrol costs more than the USA. Fuel alone would cost me 3x the home shopping delivery cost!)
Yeh the "assisted living" thing. I've tried but in his head, if I was serious about that then it would mean I had "written him off to die" and there would eternal shame and damnation on me. So he doesnt take it seriously because "I'd never do THAT and I'm happy to help him a little".
Well start convincing him that you would do THAT! Arrange a lunch trip to one so he can tour it. Kills two birds with one stone....you get credit for taking him out and you make your point that you are not kidding around anymore.
My father was the same. I could deal with the every other week shopping trip. It was all the phone calls that started "I've got a problem..." "I think the end is near" "I need to see you ONE LAST TIME". He was always "dying" of this thing or that. Always had something important to tell me then when I make the BIG effort to get there he'd tell me "never mind". I'd ask him what he needed so I could stop on the way there and I'd either get "I'll tell you when you get here"...not thinking I really didn't want to drive all the way there then go back out and back to his apartment...or I'd bring what he asked for and he say didn't you get "X"? No you didn't say that...ok you can go get it now. No respect for my time. It doesn't occur to them that they are work for you. In fact they think doing things for them is somehow a reward to you.
Every single time I speak to him now it goes like the following. Every single time now I get off the phone totally annoyed....
Dad: So are you coming up after work one evening this week?
Me: No Dad we already discussed this on monday, I've got childcare issues, I'll be there sunday.
Dad: Well I thought you'd have made a bit more of an effort. I'm disappointed that you've let me down.
(Letting that one slide we move on).
Dad: So I'm DESPERATE for food, not sure if I've got enough food in the house to last until sunday. I don't know what I'm going to do if you don't come sunday. I hope you come - can you make a big effort?
Me: I plan to come sunday but I'm doing On Call/Standby with work and we've spoken about this.
Dad: Well you'll have to sort something out.
Me: Well.....
Dad: Oh no. What am I going to do? You'll have to come. I hope you can make an effort.
(another one to let slide)
A bit of info about some of the stuff above that I've mentioned on the forum before.
As you can see I never ever promised to visit after work this week, in fact, from the off I told him I couldn't.
The food thing is a nightmare. I bought him a large freezer but EVERY time he buys as little as possible so it deliberately runs out. I've offered to arrange home delivery and he refuses. I also know for a fact that my brother has been there TODAY and done shopping for him. Its a game for him.
As Is me being On Call. He hates it. I've tried to explain. I have no control over it. I can't "make an effort" not to get called out. I could get called any time 24 hours a day. If I've got plans and I get called then I have to cancel. My family know this and have to put up with it but, apparently, his "wants" supercede this.
Am I being a bit sensitive here or is this conversation we had a bit off? Like I said EVERY single call is like this and I've had enough.
How on earth can you be "disappointed" and how can I have "let you down" when I said from the off I wasn't able to do it? More like disappointed he can't get his own way.
And if I had a dollar or pound for every time I heard the words "DESPERATE" or "HOPE" I'd be a millionaire by now. And don't get me started on the "make an effort" thing - that winds me up into a frenzy!!!!
Surely normal people don't use these sort of words in normal conversation unless they're trying to guilt trip someone?
I think worse of all though, its apparent, Dad does not give one second of thought to my well being or that of my family. Hes proved this in the past. (Another story I posted where I was up at 4am with work and he conned me into driving over to see him later on in the day when I'd had little sleep - thanks Dad).
Surely, a normal parent in this situation as above, might like to see their son/daughter during the week but if their son or daughter couldn't make they'd just say "oh ok I understand then, see you the weekend". Also, if a planned visit had to be cancelled because of something like being called into work (which is part of my job, I get paid for, and have little say in) may be disappointed but would just say "ok see you next time".
But no, I get the guilt laid on that hes starving to death, can't cope, or hints that I'm being a bad son and not making an effort. And these deliberate plays to manipulate the situation to his advantage (like with the food in the freezer) make it worse. Its just not on to be honest and I've had as much as I can take with him.
Last year or so I've dreaded every time I've had to phone him or visit him. The conversation always goes like this on the phone. When I visit hes even worse - some of the things hes said to me defy belief. You couldn't make it up the things he thinks hes got a right to comment on.
My wife hates him and shes got a very good point - the things hes done and the rude things hes done to my family are unbelievable.
SO, for all his tricks hes not realised that I want to see LESS of him these days than I ever did. He knows he does things to annoy me but he keeps doing it. His excuse "you know me I've got something to say I've got to say it". No you don't. Its had a negative affect on what hes trying to achieve. The more he pushes the more I back off now.
Thing is he doesn't think hes done anything wrong. Can guarantee if I pointed out to him the things hes done, the way hes out of order, how much hes manipulated me and how upset I am about, how much my wife dislikes him he'd look at me with Big Sad Puppy Eyes and says "what have I done? I didn't do anything"
He comes across as a sweet helpless old man. Hes very good at that act.
Quote from: lkdrymom on September 11, 2019, 05:23:54 PM
Well start convincing him that you would do THAT! Arrange a lunch trip to one so he can tour it. Kills two birds with one stone....you get credit for taking him out and you make your point that you are not kidding around anymore.
My father was the same. I could deal with the every other week shopping trip. It was all the phone calls that started "I've got a problem..." "I think the end is near" "I need to see you ONE LAST TIME". He was always "dying" of this thing or that. Always had something important to tell me then when I make the BIG effort to get there he'd tell me "never mind". I'd ask him what he needed so I could stop on the way there and I'd either get "I'll tell you when you get here"...not thinking I really didn't want to drive all the way there then go back out and back to his apartment...or I'd bring what he asked for and he say didn't you get "X"? No you didn't say that...ok you can go get it now. No respect for my time. It doesn't occur to them that they are work for you. In fact they think doing things for them is somehow a reward to you.
Yep my time is his apparently. Two hours of my time equals 30 seconds of him having to do something like answer the front door to the man delivering the groceries because "I dont like doing it".
Oh I had the dying thing one Xmas day. I used to drive 30 mins pick him up, drive to our house back 30 mins, he'd stay for a few hours for dinner, then repeat. Great eh? One year I should have left him home - he was moaning from the off. He'd been back and fore the doctors for a few weeks, called an ambulance a few times - was CONVINCED he should be in hospital. Doctors thought not - all he had was a bit of a cold.
So he came to our house. Made sure everyone knew how ill he was. Pretended he couldn't walk from one of the living room to another (normally he walks a good 400-500 yards to the store at home). Ate all his dinner though and extra (so wasnt that bad).
Took him home. Decided he was feeling worse by the time he got home. Decided he "wasn't going to make it thought the night" or at least until the doctors office opened after the xmas break. Wanted to call an ambulance because he really needed to be in hospital. Stupidly, I stayed to calm him down. All the while my 4 year old was sat at home (I got home 10pm xmas day evening) waiting for me to come home. Wife was not impressed. I can never forgive Dad for doing that to me.
As an end to this story a week later he "had a fall" and ended up in hospital (which was what he wanted all along). Very suspicious cut on the top of his head which the hospital mentioned. He forgot to stick to his story so we had two different versions. To this day, 99.9% sure this was self inflicted - he'd gone over to the kitchen cupboard and deliberately scraped his head along the bottom of the door. Great eh?
I totally get this P123, both my parents did the same thing. M died last year but she used to wail at me every time I phoned "when are you coming? I need x or y doing". Even when I broke my arm, all she said after listening to me tell her I was in plaster and couldn't drive, was "when can you come then?" :stars: We moved 300 miles away five years ago and she said "how could you DO this to ME!!!"
F was the same until I stopped fixing things and let him get on with it. In short order he'd got himelf into a care home and recruited a new set of 'helpers' who shopped and took him out regularly until they realised how entitled he felt to their undivided attention 24 hours/7 days a week.
Quote from: p123 on September 11, 2019, 06:15:00 PM
Am I being a bit sensitive here or is this conversation we had a bit off?
No, absolutely not, it's not normal for a parent to demand this level of attention. He simply does not see you as a whole person with a family and a job, IMV he just sees you as someone who does what he wants and when you don't, he sees it as just a malfunction and if he keeps on with the same routine, you'll do what he wants in the end. Sadly, as I'm sure you know, the reality is he won't change, it's crazy making and frustrating as hell. He is not taking responsiblity for himself, he expects you and B to do that. Look at the 3Cs in the toolbox, I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it.
Quote from: p123 on September 11, 2019, 06:15:00 PM
How on earth can you be "disappointed" and how can I have "let you down" when I said from the off I wasn't able to do it? More like disappointed he can't get his own way.
And if I had a dollar or pound for every time I heard the words "DESPERATE" or "HOPE" I'd be a millionaire by now. And don't get me started on the "make an effort" thing - that winds me up into a frenzy!!!!
Surely normal people don't use these sort of words in normal conversation unless they're trying to guilt trip someone?
No you are so right they do not but your F is PD and as a normal functioning, kind and compassionate person, you're not going to be able to understand how his minds works.
Quote from: p123 on September 11, 2019, 06:15:00 PM
Thing is he doesn't think hes done anything wrong. Can guarantee if I pointed out to him the things hes done, the way hes out of order, how much hes manipulated me and how upset I am about, how much my wife dislikes him he'd look at me with Big Sad Puppy Eyes and says "what have I done? I didn't do anything"
Yes my F said this once he'd worked through all the possible reasons why I don't visit, I've accepted that he will never see it.
You've said you can't go on like this and I understand, I (finally) got to that stage after trying for years to fix things for my parents. I realised nothing could ever be fixed, they didn't want it because it would mean that they would have no excuse to guilt trip B and I. It's hard but the best thing is for you if you let go, you've offered to set up grocery delivery and he doesn't want it so you are not responsible if he runs out of food. You are sticking to your boundary of only visiting Sunday which is good but what about trying to cut it down further, stock up his freezer for a month, say you are busy (thanks WI!), don't listen to his whines, read the paper while you're on the phone to him to distract yourself, us MC only, don't explain just say "no can't make it that time/day". Any excuse you give IME leads to wheedling, manipulating and circular conversatons (yes you can, you're my SON"). There will never be a normal interaction with him so you need to protect yourself and your FOC. I've successfully used these tactics with F and I don't feel guilty, he's got a personality disorder, we are never going to see things the same way, we will never understand one another. Yes he's unhappy, lonely and angry but eventually he's sorted himself out and I can live with that.
Thanks light. Im getting my head around the "not my problem" thinking quite well. I honestly do not give a monkeys - I've tried to help hes turned it down so crack on.
What I struggle with is how annoyed he makes me feel. Its a constant battle with him.
I know - that's the hardest bit but if you can accept that all interactions with him will not make sense because he's PD it makes it a bit easier to think "here we go - whatever!" :roll:
You can harness the annoyance and use it to make your boundaries stick - and I think it's time you harden your heart to his FOG, stop explaining things to him (JADE), and tell it like it IS.
Say he needs groceries - starving. Again, some more. :violin:
You: Dad, I'm not coming until Sunday. You can have groceries delivered, or figure out something else, but I will NOT be there before Sunday." :ninja:
Him - but, but, starving, old man, I'm your priority, I'm just an old man, and I'm huuuuuuungry....you wouldn't let me starve!? :dramaqueen:
You: Dad. Either you have groceries delivered or figure something out. I won't be over until Sunday and that is my final answer. Goodbye." :ninja:
Then hang up and block him until Sunday. Chances are, he'll mooch off somebody - but he's perfectly capable of figuring it out, and just doesn't WANT to. :roll:
The same with work - don't explain. He doesn't listen, he doesn't care, save your breath -you may need it one day. :)
"Dad. I am not coming over for two weeks." :ninja:
But - reasons! :violin:
"I'm not coming over for two weeks. Whatever you need in that time, call brother, or I'm sure you're capable of figuring it out. Bye." - and BLOCK! :ninja:
The same goes for your FOC, or any other thing - all he's got is negative things to say (too expensive! I come first! You're wasting your money!) - *stop telling him anything!* :yes:
You'll thank yourself after you tell him you're doing well, the kids are good, wife is fine, job's going well, everything is just fine and lovely - and you haven't handed him a crumb of information to use against you. 8-)
I don't care if you had a Week from Hell, or the Best Week, Evah! - he hasn't earned the *right* to hear about any of it. :no:
Something that helped me, and I think it will help you, is to *stop thinking of him as your parent.*
What you're dealing with is some rando who just walked up to you and demanded your car keys, with NO explanation. He just sticks his hand out, expectantly, getting angrier and angrier with each second that you don't automatically just do as he says. :aaauuugh:
Would you *reason* with that person? Would you try to *explain*? :thumbdown:
Hell, no! You'd ask if he's freaking high, and tell him to GO AWAY. :thumbup: :ninja: :evil2:
That's how you have to handle your dad - it's how I had to handle unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, too - you take ALL emotion out of it and stick to the facts. :yes:
I can't do that. I just old you why - I can't do that. I'm not coming until Sunday - I'm busy. Very busy - no, I can't change my schedule, and no, I don't feel like sharing - it's boring and stupid. I'm sure you'll be fine, on your own - or figure something out. :ninja:
Didi and Ray never stopped trying to hector and badger me, but I think it did sink in somewhere that once I said NO - that was it. There was no compromise to be had, no matter what they said, did or pulled. My NO outranked their bleats of bored, lonely and old.
Your NO outranks your dad's bleats, too - and I really do think it's time you play hardball - it's the only way he's going to take you seriously, and look elsewhere for his "needs."
:hug:
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on September 13, 2019, 12:06:49 AM
You can harness the annoyance and use it to make your boundaries stick - and I think it's time you harden your heart to his FOG, stop explaining things to him (JADE), and tell it like it IS.
Say he needs groceries - starving. Again, some more. :violin:
You: Dad, I'm not coming until Sunday. You can have groceries delivered, or figure out something else, but I will NOT be there before Sunday." :ninja:
Him - but, but, starving, old man, I'm your priority, I'm just an old man, and I'm huuuuuuungry....you wouldn't let me starve!? :dramaqueen:
You: Dad. Either you have groceries delivered or figure something out. I won't be over until Sunday and that is my final answer. Goodbye." :ninja:
Then hang up and block him until Sunday. Chances are, he'll mooch off somebody - but he's perfectly capable of figuring it out, and just doesn't WANT to. :roll:
The same with work - don't explain. He doesn't listen, he doesn't care, save your breath -you may need it one day. :)
"Dad. I am not coming over for two weeks." :ninja:
But - reasons! :violin:
"I'm not coming over for two weeks. Whatever you need in that time, call brother, or I'm sure you're capable of figuring it out. Bye." - and BLOCK! :ninja:
The same goes for your FOC, or any other thing - all he's got is negative things to say (too expensive! I come first! You're wasting your money!) - *stop telling him anything!* :yes:
You'll thank yourself after you tell him you're doing well, the kids are good, wife is fine, job's going well, everything is just fine and lovely - and you haven't handed him a crumb of information to use against you. 8-)
I don't care if you had a Week from Hell, or the Best Week, Evah! - he hasn't earned the *right* to hear about any of it. :no:
Something that helped me, and I think it will help you, is to *stop thinking of him as your parent.*
What you're dealing with is some rando who just walked up to you and demanded your car keys, with NO explanation. He just sticks his hand out, expectantly, getting angrier and angrier with each second that you don't automatically just do as he says. :aaauuugh:
Would you *reason* with that person? Would you try to *explain*? :thumbdown:
Hell, no! You'd ask if he's freaking high, and tell him to GO AWAY. :thumbup: :ninja: :evil2:
That's how you have to handle your dad - it's how I had to handle unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, too - you take ALL emotion out of it and stick to the facts. :yes:
I can't do that. I just old you why - I can't do that. I'm not coming until Sunday - I'm busy. Very busy - no, I can't change my schedule, and no, I don't feel like sharing - it's boring and stupid. I'm sure you'll be fine, on your own - or figure something out. :ninja:
Didi and Ray never stopped trying to hector and badger me, but I think it did sink in somewhere that once I said NO - that was it. There was no compromise to be had, no matter what they said, did or pulled. My NO outranked their bleats of bored, lonely and old.
Your NO outranks your dad's bleats, too - and I really do think it's time you play hardball - it's the only way he's going to take you seriously, and look elsewhere for his "needs."
:hug:
WI - Of course, you're dead right. I'm getting there but do find it difficult to just say no.
He has worked out I think that I'm not letting him get away with it as much.And hes upped the stakes to try and counter!
Yeh I've tried to give him no info now. Like you said, it just gives him fuel.
The holiday thing this year was nuts. I booked it months ago and didn't tell him. Obviously, as it got closer I had to tell him. Despite having the conversation EVERY YEAR FOR THE PAST 5-6 YEARS he still managed to stick his nose in with an inappropriate comment how he could not believe I could be stupid enough to take a holiday when I don't get paid. I guess I'll have to get used to ignoring this sort of thing.
Am I only one though who feels sad about this? Its as if I've lost a parent. Someone you can talk to, spend time with in their last years. All I've got left is an annoying old man who cares little about me and causes me loads of grief.
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 10, 2019, 08:05:25 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 07:26:39 AM
"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! :roll:
Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!
Oh yes hes a master at it.
I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.
It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.
This is how my mother was before I went NC following months of her saying that she'd kill herself every time I pointed out that a choice she was making was unwise. After the penny dropped that I was being lined up to be her full time carer and general dogsbody no matter my health, work, other responsibilities or need to have a life I had a frank discussion with her.
She ended up screaming abuse at me, calling me names and telling me to keep away from her and my sister.
So I have and my life is much calmer and less stressful as a result 😎
It is not easy and I still suffer from FOG but the longer it goes on, the easier it is.
And yes, it is sad, and we may have to grieve the (premature) loss of a parent; but honestly, some parents are manipulative, abusive and totally self-centred.
For example, in the year that I was made redundant from long term job that I loved, I had moved house three times, my partner left me which meant that I lost my home, my Dad died and my sone had serious mental health problems, she could not understand why I was not perkily offering to do everything for her and helping her move into a house she couldn't afford.
She and my sister planned that my mother would move close to me - I wasn't consulted - and the clear expectation was that because I was now single, had more time and lived nearby, my mother would be my responsibility. This is the woman who had been emotionally and physically abusive when I was a child, who continued to emotionally abuse me into adulthood and who blamed me for anything and everything.
So glad that I got away.
Quote from: p123 on September 13, 2019, 03:33:04 AM
Am I only one though who feels sad about this? Its as if I've lost a parent. Someone you can talk to, spend time with in their last years. All I've got left is an annoying old man who cares little about me and causes me loads of grief.
Oh no you are definitely not the only one to feel this way, it is incredibly sad and you can find lots of posts on the forum from people grieving for parents they never had. It takes time to to get to the stage of being able to be detached and at first you have to fake it until you make it. I used to have an MC script when talking to F with no personal information, it felt so false and it's terrible that we have to do it but it's the hand we were dealt. Grieving and feeling sad is normal and probably never goes away but I agree with WI channeling the anger is good. :blowup:
Quote from: Lillith65 on September 13, 2019, 10:13:53 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 08:47:04 AM
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 10, 2019, 08:05:25 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 10, 2019, 07:26:39 AM
"I don't need to go to one of those horrible places to die. You won't put me away there would you? All I need is a little help from you're brother and you as I get older. You can do that for me can't you?"
He's very skilled in dishing out guilt! :roll:
Like lkdrymom wrote, reply with the "this is concerning, you sound like you need to be in an assisted living place, dad" and do it all the time. It becomes your standard reply. Then maybe he'll stop the guilt and need or at least stop saying it to you and transfer it to your brother!
Oh yes hes a master at it.
I've noticed he gets a bit exasperated these days though because its not working. In the past, he said things and I'd jump. His all time favourite phrase used to be "I thought you might have popped in to see me this weekend" or "I'm disappointed you weren't able to do this" and, as I said, "can you make a big effort this weekend?". Now when he says these sort of things I'll say "Right OK". or "I was busy" or "I told you I was busy" or "I can't promise" then change the subject. Works a treat with him.
It took me years to realise that I could not rely on my Dad to be considerate of my time, my health, or my family. Its always 100% of the time all about him. Now I realise that if I've got to let him down, its tough luck if he doesn't like it.
This is how my mother was before I went NC following months of her saying that she'd kill herself every time I pointed out that a choice she was making was unwise. After the penny dropped that I was being lined up to be her full time carer and general dogsbody no matter my health, work, other responsibilities or need to have a life I had a frank discussion with her.
She ended up screaming abuse at me, calling me names and telling me to keep away from her and my sister.
So I have and my life is much calmer and less stressful as a result 😎
It is not easy and I still suffer from FOG but the longer it goes on, the easier it is.
Glad things worked out for you..... :-)
Yeh Dad has hinted at the "killing himself" thing in the past. Has certainly tried his best to get me worried that hes really ill. These days I know its 99% made up so ignore him.
I wish he was in the USA sometimes where doctor appointments etc cost money. Because he wouldnt go. He tried it on when I was on my recent holiday. "Now dont be worried but I've had to get the doctor out to me". Basically, he had a sore throat and called the doctor to visit and the doc gave him antibiotics to shut him up. I dont think he realised how NOT WORRIED AT ALL I was because, as per usual, nothing much wrong.
He does worry me how far hes willing to push things though. I stop something - he escalates. I do wonder if there'll come a day when it gets so bad. Hes already done one or two faked injuries to get into hospital.
Quote from: lightworld on September 13, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 13, 2019, 03:33:04 AM
Am I only one though who feels sad about this? Its as if I've lost a parent. Someone you can talk to, spend time with in their last years. All I've got left is an annoying old man who cares little about me and causes me loads of grief.
Oh no you are definitely not the only one to feel this way, it is incredibly sad and you can find lots of posts on the forum from people grieving for parents they never had. It takes time to to get to the stage of being able to be detached and at first you have to fake it until you make it. I used to have an MC script when talking to F with no personal information, it felt so false and it's terrible that we have to do it but it's the hand we were dealt. Grieving and feeling sad is normal and probably never goes away but I agree with WI channeling the anger is good. :blowup:
Yeh I just get so sad that I can't have a normal realtionship with him. And I continually wonder if its just me being mean to him at times and he cant help it.
BUT, deep down I know. I remember the tricks hes pulled over the years.....
Its just so sad that when he does go Im going to remember his last 10 years or so when he was like this.......
One plus to this weeks "your brother is away so you'll have to fill in" week is that I've not heard from my brother at all. That facebook block remains.....
Previously, I'd have had "Im away, can you look after Dad? Can you go to see him on these days?" He just never seemed to understand that having to deal with an ASD teenager, 6 year old, ill wife, full time job, out of hours on call, then you've got gymnastics practice, swimming lessons, ballet, ice skating lessons, and then you've got a 30-45 min drive to his house.
Not quite the same as having no kids (to look after - long story), living 1 mile away, and/or getting your partner who doesnt work to visit him while you're in work yourself anyway
Best of all he used to tell Dad he was working 14 days straight 12 hour shifts in the factory. (Dad related to the "factory" because that was proper mens work whereas I just work in an office so it must be easy). Then I'd see him posting pics in the pub all weekend. He even used to tell Dad he was working and couldnt take him for lunch and then I'd see him post pics having lunch with his wife 300 yards from Dads house. I must have slipped up a few times and showed Dad those pics :cheers: Problem is Dad still used to believe him and sun shone out of his backside!
Im hoping I've killed off that flying monkey at least!!!!! Good riddance. He can think what he likes of me and if I never see him again it'll be too soon.
Would it be too petty to bring your kids on this? Like, "Thursday night. I take daughter to dance class that night. Do yu want her to miss that class. We've already paid for it," ... and so on.
Hon, you didn't lose a parent - you never had one in the first place, and are only starting to realize it as his filters stop working and he shows you who he really is.
As Maya Angelou said, "When somebody shows you who they are, believe them." :yes:
Your dad only cares about himself and the easiest way to get from point A to point B, without actually having to do any of the work. He's shirked his responsibilities for *decades* and fobbed them off onto others, coming off like a poor dear man with two young children, who just needs a helping hand. :violin:
But the kids grew up and moved away - and he's still the same person. He wants and expects *others* to do for him - and that includes you, the scapegoat with the job, life, marriage and kids, while your GC brother, who sits idle in a bar and tells porkies about his "long work days" - gets off scot free. :blowup:
Does that sound fair to you? Your brother lives nearby, yet he's the one who you wisely blocked, since he's deployed as a FMM to light a fire under your ass - as long as he doesn't actually have to DO anything.
It's time for that to stop. YOU don't have to do anything, either. :yes: :ninja:
We are all responsible for *ourselves* - and that includes your father. If he'd rather sit on his butt, snap his fingers, and have things magically appear - it's on HIM to figure out how to make that happen and not YOU to provide those services.
UnBPD Didi and unNPD Ray were married, lived in the same hoarded-up house, and barely interacted except to scream at each other, provoke, goad and fight like cats and dogs. I had very little to do with Ray while he was alive (they adopted me to manage HER :blink:), and Didi thought I *owed* it to her to be her slave. :thumbdown:
I noped right out of that shit - and the only reason she ever got out of me was that I was "too busy." :ninja:
Busy is a state of mind - it's not you, running around and trying to catch up on 10,000 home improvement projects.
Busy is you, hanging out with your family. :)
Busy is you, taking a day to slip into something more slovenly and play computer games, or binge-watch something you've been meaning to get to. 8-)
Busy is YOU, living, breathing and *existing.* :yahoo:
THAT is busy - and that's *exactly* what I was doing. I was busy. No can-do. Sorry. Not even five minutes. That doesn't work for me. I'll see what I can do, but I can't promise anything. :ninja:
"I'll see what I can do..." is another one that doesn't mean exactly what the PD in your life thinks it means. :sly:
Sometimes what you can do is *absolutely nothing* - and that's exactly what you DO. NOTHING. :ninja: The problem isn't yours - the problem is his, and if your dad doesn't want to solve it, that's not on you. :thumbup:
NONE of this is on you - it's on him, and if he escalates by making more demands, *do even less.* Call back *less often.* Block his number for several weeks. He won't starve and he won't die - he'll go on living and gaaaaaaaasp - figure shit out, like how to have groceries delivered. :doh:
You might need to slap a hand over your mouth as he proudly boasts he figured this out *all by himself* - but it's worth it. You'll have proven what you already know - your dad is just about as lazy as they come, and would prefer shortcuts in the form of other people doing work FOR him - and doesn't even want to make a call to make it happen. :roll:
But most of all, he wants YOU - so he doesn't have to *behave* in front of STRANGERS. With you, he can let his freak flag fly - you've seen him at his worst, so it doesn't matter what you think, and he really doesn't want to have to make an effort for *others* or *outsiders.*
Tough. 8-)
You can't do it - you're busy. :ninja:
Once you become comfortable with that, your life will become *much* easier - if your dad wants something, he'll have to figure it out or your brother will have to get involved, while you stay safely OUT of the fray. :)
With both Didi and Ray, I was always "busy" - nope, can't do it. Can't change my schedule. I'm sure you'll figure it out. :ninja:
They did - they just didn't want to, like your dad.
He only wants to use you, like Didi and Ray wanted to use me - and yes, they started "forgetting" to pay me back, or hand-waving things away, like my money meant nothing and was just another thing I owed them, on the never-ending list I could never repay. :roll:
I decided it was paid in full when I was a child :'( >:( - and you can do the same. :yes:
You are *not* abandoning your father - he has a phone, it dials other numbers than yours, and can connect to a wide variety of services that will benefit him. :yes:
He'd just rather inconvenience you - you and your FOC deserve better than to live at the whims of somebody who will never be happy, unless he's driving you crazy.
You have the power to make that stop. You have the power to see that old man for who and what he really is and say, "No more." :yes:
Let him escalate - and let the professionals deal with him. Sooner or later, your dad is going to cross a line he didn't know was there, and probably wind up having himself sectioned.
Let it happen - and do nothing. You'll thank yourself, later.
:hug:
WI you're spot on as usual....
Im getting there just wish I could be as good as that....
Right what you say hes been like that fr decades. He has. Its just become more apparent as he got older.
Still dont understand how he EVER decided to take on parental responsibility for two young toddlers aged 3 and 4, back in 1972. Doesnt fit with his character.
P123,
Regarding your question about taking on responsibility for two young children back in the day. I obviously dont know all the facts and maybe you dont , but similar happened in my extended back in the day. The wife left and the husband won custody of 2 young children, but on the proviso his sister moved in! It didnt go well.
For the narc, how he appears to others is everything to keep him mentally stable. So maybe he thought he had no choice, ( i need to appear to be a good loving Dad) but didnt think through the long term consequences of what it meant.
Narcissistic men cant be fathers as ive come to realise, because they are still self obsessed children themselves. They have arrested development.
They get worse with age if their narcissistic supply runs out and get more and more demanding to those still in contact.
You really missed a perfect opportunity. When he was whining about not having enough food until Sunday what you should have said "well Dad, if you were in ASSISTED LIVING you would never have to worry about where your next meal was coming from...next time I can make it up to you, lets go look at places".
I think that to him, and other PDs ( including my dad) assisted living means admitting to the world that they need help to live. For narcs and borderlines, this is a bitter blow to their pride. They can't deal with it. Yet day to day, they begin now and again to need some support. This makes them feel angry and invalidated, so they get grumpy with US (who else) and blame us for leaving them so exposed to the realisation that they are no longer truly independent! They guilt us into helping, stressing how it's a privilege for us. This way, they never have to thank us, and once helped they quickly resume the belief that they are independent.
This is how children 'helping' PD parents can actually be bad for them. They are the ones most in need of assisted living.
They may talk about how see other children do things for their parents. But comparisons are odious. These arrangements can be fine where the parent is non PD and understands their child is a person with a life. These adult children haven't been damaged, are not triggered by the contact, and are not gaslighted and guilted into helping.
Keep those boundaries up. Say no a lot, and cut short the conversation. Don't give personal information. Good luck.
I'm about eight years Out of the FOG. Standing up to my dad was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. If I hadn't he would be living with me by now, and I'd be his servant.
He had to accept my changed attitude, and of course I'm the healthier for it.
PDs also don't like assisted living because it appears that family doesn't care enough or they don't have enough money to afford a full time caregiver.
Both humbling thoughts..
Quote from: StayWithMe on September 15, 2019, 10:48:41 PM
PDs also don't like assisted living because it appears that family doesn't care enough or they don't have enough money to afford a full time caregiver.
Both humbling thoughts..
Yes my Dad would think of the "shame" that he'd have to tell his friends that 1) he can't cope and 2) his family have let him down.
He lives in an are where men are men and some of the attitudes are not the most liberal to be honest. Its rife. (for those in the uk, south wales valleys - traditionally a very blue collar indistry place - coal mining, steel etc).
I get with Dad that he gets scared that he won't be able to cope. BUT I'v never let him down. He is a bit of a hypochondriac too. In his head, hes 10x more ill than he acually us - this doesn't help.
SO, I guess he likes to test people to ensure they know he is 100% a priority. Which is what causes the problem.
Another problem is he just won't listen to anyone. Hes very stubborn. Also, despite having £1000s in the bank he wont spend money. So whereas Im willing to do things or arrange things to help he wont do it unless its something he likes or knows about or is free. Again, his friends opinion is more important than mine too.
Example - took me months to talk him into a stair lift at home. All because his friends felt "no-one needs this sort of thing, just get on with it". Not great, eh?
My father was the same way....my opinion was not important but the opinion of some stranger was golden. He used to pop into my office when he still lived on his own. If there was something I needed him to do I'd get my receptionist to suggest it to him....then he was willing. Then I got a huge promotion and he thought my opinion was gold. He'd steal my business cards and hand them out to people. I flipped out and asked why and he said so people could call me. I don't need random strangers bothering me at work! He'd start calling me on every little thing. Then I wished we would go back to where my opinion did not matter.
When your father was your age would he have had time to cater to an elderly relative? Maybe point that out. Maybe time for bluntness. Tell him that he drives you away with his neediness. My father was the same way. I didn't mind helping my father when he truly needed help. It was the neediness and making up of issues just to get attention. That turned me off and pushed me farther away. They have no idea how to be a person you want to be around.
Quote from: lkdrymom on September 16, 2019, 05:48:23 AM
My father was the same way....my opinion was not important but the opinion of some stranger was golden. He used to pop into my office when he still lived on his own. If there was something I needed him to do I'd get my receptionist to suggest it to him....then he was willing. Then I got a huge promotion and he thought my opinion was gold. He'd steal my business cards and hand them out to people. I flipped out and asked why and he said so people could call me. I don't need random strangers bothering me at work! He'd start calling me on every little thing. Then I wished we would go back to where my opinion did not matter.
When your father was your age would he have had time to cater to an elderly relative? Maybe point that out. Maybe time for bluntness. Tell him that he drives you away with his neediness. My father was the same way. I didn't mind helping my father when he truly needed help. It was the neediness and making up of issues just to get attention. That turned me off and pushed me farther away. They have no idea how to be a person you want to be around.
I remember my gran (his mother). She was similar I think. Obviously, I didnt have the responsibility and know the full story. But I do remember she used to call her daughter (dads sister) at 7am on a sunday and demand a doctor visit here. Not any doctor it had to be the one she liked.
I remember Dad getting irate at times and saying "Shoot me if I'm ever like that when I get old". Oh how the might fall. This is all forgotten now,
Quotemy opinion was not important but the opinion of some stranger was golden.
My mother does that. I look upon it as her way of saying she's an expert too. That is, maybe she doesn't have the answer, but she produce someone whose opinion will trump mine. So when it comes to my health, the best she can say is "do what the doctor says." Ok.
She also has a habit of asking strangers for directions. The slightest hesitation that I show, maybe checking a map, giving a second look at signage, will launch her into asking other people for directions. When we have travled in non English speaking countries, she will suggest that I ask whoever is near us for directions even if there is no indication that the person would know the info we're looking for and could speak English.
When I moved to New Jersey, my mother became impatient with the signage for the New Jersey turnpike. Anyone who has spent time in NJ will remember how signs for the turnpike are still many, MANY blocks from the actual opening. My mother actually stuck her head out of the window and asked strangers in cars next to us for directions. One time i followed them and they took us nowhere. fortunately, it was still daylight.
It took me a while to get over the natural deference that I gave my parents. I have now learned to bob my head and say, ok and do what I think is best.
But for the uninitiated, they can't believe that someone can pleasure out of that sort of behavior.
Tonights visit was just a WOW. Im still in shock to be honest....
Its his birthday which is why I visited. I did get annoying comment about how I finish work at 5pm and don't get to him until 6pm when its only 10 miles away. (He doesn't get the no set hours thing - I was busy and left at 530. Neither does he get the reason I don't visit after work is because in rush hour those 10 miles take an hour).
Anyway he was ok. I almost started to feel like I misjudged him.
I ignored the standard, "I guess you'll be visiting the weekend" dig.No probably not. Pretty standard. If I don't visit to to his frequency then he comments (i.e. every two days = no chance!)
Then he drops the bombshell. "So is your wife going to call me and wish me happy birthday?". I was dumbstruck. He then accidentally gave me an out "I never see her these days" to which I replied "shes always working".
I don't believe it. They've not spoken for 18 months. My wife can't stand him any more. As I've said before, shes right too. I don't want to get banned off this forum but we ALL of us (wife and I) know what he is, I think the same I've just got the added complication of him being my Dad so I'm stuck. I just can't expect my wife to put up with him. We decided a year or so ago that I was fine for her to have no contact with him - up to her.
Some of his behaviour has been terrible and shes been dragged into more than once without any choice. I just don't get it. I don't see how he can even, for one second, imagine that hes done nothing wrong and has not upset her in the past few months. Is this a thing with someone with PD? i.e. they really don't think they've done anything wrong.
Dads apologised to me about 10 times for things in last year. All fake. He does the same the week after. He always says don't tell your wife. Does he really think I keep things from her? (Its possible, hes always a great believer that women should be kept in the dark and not trusted because they don't see things straight. Hes been divorced twice lol! Not me at all).
Or I do think part of it is a power thing again? i.e. Its my birthday and so you pay homage ("kiss the ring") and respect me by calling me on my birthday. Also, as is often, hes got an idea that the "right" thing that someone should so is to call their father in law on their birthday and as such he demands it.
I'm still in shock now. I haven't told me wife yet - I will - the idea is just crazy after whats gone on. I can see this all exploding if this is his attitude.
Its not helped by brothers wife who he think is Florence Nightingale. She visits all the time (doesnt work, lives a mile away) because she can smell the money in the bank he has. I have caught her out more than once though... Of course, my wife is the Devil incarnate because she does nothing.
Those of us who do not have a personality disorder may not ever really be able to fully figure out the behaviors and motivations of a person with a personality disorder.
We may not be able to put ourselves in their shoes. We can guess, and sometimes we may be right, but at least for myself - it has been important to acknowledge that I simply do not know. I don't understand. I myself would never do those behaviors.
I mean, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, but I could not do the sustained personality disordered behaviors.
So I go through the shock and amazement. It's like culture shock. As if I'm in an upside down world when dealing with my PD family.
I want an explanation so that I can make sense of things and maybe feel safer. But things don't make sense and in some situations I am actually not safe. At least my sanity is in jeopardy. :)
I've been trained to feel guilty and to blame for everything. I've had to work on that, including in therapy.
p123, you and your family deserve a good enjoyable life. I know you feel stuck, but you aren't. You can limit your contact further with your father. You can even walk away, for a break, or longer. You can focus on yourself and your immediate family.
I think WI's posts here are worth reading over regularly. Maybe even print out and read daily.
If humor ever helps you in other situations, try that. Crack some jokes, vent, sing a silly little song about the situation. Give yourself a playful pep talk. It's ridiculous that this guy is causing you so much grief, isn't it? You can get free. Your wife might quite like that too.
Thanks Serenity. Hes getting worse and I struggle to cope.....
I STILL cannot believe he would say such a thing. Like you said, I need to get my head around not trying to understand his crazy behaviour.
I would REALLY REALLY like to go Low contact with him. I just don't the fight in me to deal with the initial fallout. I KNOW he would fight tooth and nail and DO ANYTHING to fight back against this. Hes proved in the past he'll do this. If I blocked his number or something he'd escalated. He WOULD call the police or something and play the "poor old man" trick that we was worried about me. He'd tell the rest of the familly I'd deserted him. He'd fake something and get admitted to hospital and then blame me. He'd threaten to do himself harm. I wouldnt put anything past him.
Cowardly maybe. But I just can't. Its making me ill at the moment with all the stress to be honest.
And what would the police do? Handcuff you and drive you to your dad's house? If he threatens self-harm YOU call the police.
I have compassion for your fear. Really I do. I've had anxiety attacks anticipating my father showing up at my house, my MIL showing up at my house, CPS taking away my children due to my father's lies. I've feared bringing further trauma upon my children. The fear still comes back at times even after going NC. But I decided that no matter what their crazy grandparents did or didn't do, my children deserved a mother who lived in strength and not fear. I did and am doing what I would want for someone I cared about in my situation. I want freedom, and the only way is to push through the fear. Fear is not reality. It's a feeling, not an imperative.
For myself I found the strength over my fear in Christ Jesus, but from the examples of others you don't have to be religious to do this. Reality is reality. The truth is you can if you choose to. You are seeing your situation for what it is and that's most of the way out.
Your father may do any or all of those things. You will survive. There are people on here who have survived all of those tactics.
You're suffering so much, and it's not right. It's a lifetime of fear and conditioning at work. I get it. But really you're afraid of a pathetic old man who won't even take responsibility for feeding himself. He's a child. You are an adult with plenty of resources to handle whatever tantrum he throws.
I understand the fear and guilt about going low contact. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. If you normally visit every Sunday, find a way to miss out one Sunday a month for your mental health. Or could you get away with a shorter visit on Friday after work then skip Sunday? My father is in assisted living and I visit roughly every three weeks and my visits are now about 20-30 minutes. In July I ended up visiting him quite often so I took August off. Luckily he is at the stage where he can't judge time so he thought it was only two weeks and gave me grief for that. I have found the more you do or visit the more they expect. It will never be enough. If you saw your father three times a week he'd be griping about it not being 4 times a week. When you realize this it is easier to back off. Take baby steps if you can't do the big one. If I were you I would shoot for every other week. If he gripes about food tell him he better buy enough when you are there or he is SOL. Or you can point out your brother could take him on his next visit. Your biggest problem is that you let him get away with his flimsy excuses. And I totally get that you don't want to argue with him. Next time you take him shopping remind him that you can't make it next week so he better stock up. If he refuses don't argue, but remind him that you don't want to hear next week that he is out of food, he has been warned. Then don't take his phone calls the next week. Or your brothers. You can't change him but you can change how you react.
Quote from: lkdrymom on September 19, 2019, 07:57:57 AM
I understand the fear and guilt about going low contact. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. If you normally visit every Sunday, find a way to miss out one Sunday a month for your mental health. Or could you get away with a shorter visit on Friday after work then skip Sunday? My father is in assisted living and I visit roughly every three weeks and my visits are now about 20-30 minutes. In July I ended up visiting him quite often so I took August off. Luckily he is at the stage where he can't judge time so he thought it was only two weeks and gave me grief for that. I have found the more you do or visit the more they expect. It will never be enough. If you saw your father three times a week he'd be griping about it not being 4 times a week. When you realize this it is easier to back off. Take baby steps if you can't do the big one. If I were you I would shoot for every other week. If he gripes about food tell him he better buy enough when you are there or he is SOL. Or you can point out your brother could take him on his next visit. Your biggest problem is that you let him get away with his flimsy excuses. And I totally get that you don't want to argue with him. Next time you take him shopping remind him that you can't make it next week so he better stock up. If he refuses don't argue, but remind him that you don't want to hear next week that he is out of food, he has been warned. Then don't take his phone calls the next week. Or your brothers. You can't change him but you can change how you react.
Im trying for every two weeks at the moment.
I visited last sunday and last night. Yet still he asked last night when I was coming at the weekend....
Oh I know about the excuses. His chest freezer has three things in it. He gives me a list - 1 of this, one of that. In the past, I've bought double and hes moaned and moaned. Reasons ranging from:-
1. "I didn't want to spend that much money in one go" (hes got £40K in the bank though)
2. "The food won't keep that long" (90% if it is frozen - are you really trying to tell me you dont know how freezers work)
3. "I don't know what to do" (This is in response to my offer of arranging home delivery, where he gives me the list, I order it and he pays for it - yep you answer the door.
At the moment, hes violently rejecting the home delivery idea. I've also caught him out about 3 times now where hes telling me hes not seen anyone and no-ones done his shopping and I know brother has been there day before. Thing is hes also very good at sweeping these things under the carpet never to be mentioned again.
Of course, its all a game in his attempt to get me to visit as often as he'd like. If he agreed to home delivery that would pave the way for his bad son to NEVER visit in his head. How he thinks I dont know what hes doing is beyond me. As I've often said, if he didnt do these things I'd want to visit more.
At the moment, he keeps asking what I'm doing at the weekends. Not telling him any more. He seems to have the idea in his head that ANY of my free time should be spent on visiting him. Obviously, I have things to do with my own kids.
Which is another thing. He is TOTALLY disinterested in my kids - his grandchildren. Ignore them. I think to him they are just an annoyance that take my focus away from him. In the past, he has said "what did you bring her for?" when I brought my 6 year old (I walked out that time).
P, you could live in your dad's house, and he'd still complain he didn't get to see you enough. When I still lived at home I got my hands on an insanely long, fascinating, complex series of books. It was great, and I got it right before spring break! I was thrilled! So I managed to read a ridiculous amount in the space of a week spent mostly in my bedroom.
UbpdM complained she was lonely and I hadn't spent time with her.
Also while I was living at home I was working on a book, I had been busily typing away for long hours for a couple of days in my spare time. I was in the living room... Less than five feet away from UbpdM... She looks over at me and gripes that I'm not spending time with her and she's lonely.
It will never end and it will never be good enough.
Quote from: Andeza on September 19, 2019, 10:17:28 AM
P, you could live in your dad's house, and he'd still complain he didn't get to see you enough. When I still lived at home I got my hands on an insanely long, fascinating, complex series of books. It was great, and I got it right before spring break! I was thrilled! So I managed to read a ridiculous amount in the space of a week spent mostly in my bedroom.
UbpdM complained she was lonely and I hadn't spent time with her.
Also while I was living at home I was working on a book, I had been busily typing away for long hours for a couple of days in my spare time. I was in the living room... Less than five feet away from UbpdM... She looks over at me and gripes that I'm not spending time with her and she's lonely.
It will never end and it will never be good enough.
:yeahthat:
Quote from: Andeza on September 19, 2019, 10:17:28 AM
P, you could live in your dad's house, and he'd still complain he didn't get to see you enough. When I still lived at home I got my hands on an insanely long, fascinating, complex series of books. It was great, and I got it right before spring break! I was thrilled! So I managed to read a ridiculous amount in the space of a week spent mostly in my bedroom.
UbpdM complained she was lonely and I hadn't spent time with her.
Also while I was living at home I was working on a book, I had been busily typing away for long hours for a couple of days in my spare time. I was in the living room... Less than five feet away from UbpdM... She looks over at me and gripes that I'm not spending time with her and she's lonely.
It will never end and it will never be good enough.
WOW thats crazy...
Funny thing with my Dad is if I invite him out to lunch or something he'll say no. Doesn't make sense. One minute hes saying how hes stuck in the house and never goes out then I'll invite him to go for lunch and he'll say no. He'll make all sorts of excuses such as he can't walk (theres spaces next to the door) etc etc.
If it HIS idea he'll do it. Like If I turn up he'll say I haven't been out - take me out in the car. Its then his idea. Like I said, sometimes I take my daughter whos 6 so, in the past, Ive taken them both to a country park. Dad gets a ride out and daughter gets to play in the park. But NO Dad always moans about it - not his idea again - why do we have to wait for you're daughter to play in the park, I want to go home now. Hes just so selfish.
Last time I stuck him back in the car and left him alone for 30 mins - he did not like it. Now hes taken to "I dont want to go there" and "I want to go there" wheres theres nothing. No matter how many times I tell him he just does not care that 6 year olds arent keen on 90 minute car journeys with nothing to do. Its all about him.
Which ones the 6 year old?
I remember having to drive up north for a family funeral or something and he insisted in going in the front even though it meant it was easier for everyone if he went in back. He just didnt care about others. His mother was the same a uBPD.
Quote from: Hazy111 on September 19, 2019, 10:46:20 AM
Which ones the 6 year old?
I remember having to drive up north for a family funeral or something and he insisted in going in the front even though it meant it was easier for everyone if he went in back. He just didnt care about others. His mother was the same a uBPD.
Not sure if you mean mental age - definitely my Dad. BUT I do have a daugher whos physically 6.
Just leaving work been busy. Today is his birthday. I visited last night.
Can GUARANTEE he will want to know why I didnt phone earlier to wish him happy birthday? Can GUARANTEE he'll want to know why my wife hasn't phoned him (never going to happen).
All because, in his head, this is how we should all respect him.
Unplug phone for the evening
P123, your post 43 makes me believe that your father just likes fucking with you. Establish a certain amount of time that you will give him snd then stick to it. If your visits can include grocery, even better.
Do you bring the kids and the wife over? I certainly would. Remind him you have a family to take care of.
Quote from: StayWithMe on September 19, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
P123, your post 43 makes me believe that your father just likes fucking with you. Establish a certain amount of time that you will give him snd then stick to it. If your visits can include grocery, even better.
Do you bring the kids and the wife over? I certainly would. Remind him you have a family to take care of.
Well he certainly likes to "win" and I'm sure he gets a warm glow when he gets me to do something.
His ultimate goal I think is to get me to visit more than I do now and for him to KNOW that he can click his fingers and get me there. Of course, this means he has to try whatever tactics he thinks he needs to. Agreeing to take an easier option means he needs less so might mean less visits so he likes things a bit screwed up because then if the situation is bad he still needs things.
Wild horses couldnt drag my wife there lol.
I do mostly take my daughter. I KNOW he hates it but now hes clever enough to not say anything after I walked out that one time. My wife works a lot at the weekend so I've got no choice but to take her.
She also plays a sport (netball) when shes not working. Dad went through a phase of making a huge sigh when I had my daughter with and told him wife was playing netball. As if how dare your wife be doing something else, making you bring your daughter with you when you're seeing me. Hes stopped that now.
Honestly though, his lack of interest in his grandchildren is sad to see. Totally disinterested. Of course, to him they are just in the way a bit preventing 100% access to me.
This weekend my wifes working both days 9-5. So I've got my teenage son (ok hes not much trouble usually but he does have aspergers so you have to be careful) and my 6 year old daughter to look after. I love looking after them but its busy. Saturday 1030 -11 swimming lessons, 12-1 gymnastics, Sunday skating club 745am-9 (I know!), 9-45-1045 skaing lesson. 12-2 taking her to trampoline place.
Been to Dads last sunday for a few hours and wednesday evening (because it was his birthday) for an hour (getting home at 830pm!). Yet he still moans I dont visit him. I'd be nice to be left alone to have my own life a little!
So your dad and my grandmother are similar. I haven't been on the forum much the past couple of years. My grandmother is 97, still at home, self centered, fears abandonment, is manipulative, deceitful, a drama queen, complains constantly that no one helps her, and spends literally her entire day wondering when the next person is coming over and what are they going to do for her. She only values people for what they do for her and has no interest in them as human beings. No respect for anyone's time. No ability to see beyond herself. When she gets into rehab she wants to be transferred to another Nursing home asap because they aren't servicing her fast enough. The entitlement is outrageous. When she doesn't get enough attention (narcissistic supply) she falls into narcissistic collapse which is basically her whining constantly, not feeling like eating, and basically acting like breathing is effort. She also likes to pretend she has dementia (she does not.) This usually leads to an ER stay then rehab. I have multiple people going in through two agencies, a friend of the family, her neighbors, a nephews wife (who replaces the last one who moved across the continent), and of course me. And guess what? Still not enough. It's never enough. I'm in therapy and realizing wow I've been emotionally abused my entire life by this woman. Belittled, gaslighted, manipulated, guilt trips, lying. I found out recently she's been telling people for at least 5 years that I don't do enough for her. Underlying sentiment is that I'm no good. Now that she's very old she'll tell people right in front of me "she doesn't do anything for me" while I took time out of work to be there for her at that moment.
I'm pretty pissed off and tired of dealing with this but doing best I can to limit contact. I do all the arranging of services for her but she chooses to believe her doctor does it. So be it. I even had a social worker try to explain to her all the effort I'm doing on her behalf and it fell on deaf ears. I told that social worker thanks for trying but you are wasting your breath. She is incapable of appreciating me or anyone else.
So they don't get better when they age. They get more manipulative, with no filter to even pretend to be nice anymore. She truly has alienated most people with her entitled selfish behavior.
Oh and I'm not 100% sure but I think she fakes illnesses or even an injury recently where she fell in the garage. Hit her head. She had been feeling particularly sad for herself that week (always sad for herself not anyone else) and I fully expected her to place herself on the floor or fall for attention soon then that happened. Maybe she did fall on accident, but wouldn't put it past her to do it on purpose. How sad we have to even think that about someone?
Oh and her son (who told me years ago she's my responsibility now because her house is in my name and he wanted it) is now in rehab himself with few visitors. I'm extremely limited in time I spend with him and am teaching my son who is in his 20's to set firm boundaries with his grandfather. No one should have to be treated like a servant and that's all we are to them.
On a bigger scale, I find their lack of empathy downright opposite to what I thought we as humans were supposed to be. Without empathy, the ability to love, have compassion, have a conscience, what sets us apart from any other animal species? I thought all humans had empathy and it's been a paradigm shift to accept many do not.
I wish I had advice for you beyond low contact, setting boundaries, having zero expectation to be treated like a human being, and therapy. No one who has not experienced a pd family member will ever understand what we go through.
Last night we had another classic. Land line rings at 5pm. I always avoid answering at this time - 5pm is the time hes realised that I'm not coming to visit and despite me saying I'm busy his guilt trip has now worked that day. So conversation always goes along the lines of "oh so you didn;t visit. where have you been?" i.e. justify it lad and I'm going to make it as awkward as possible, followed by "so you're coming tomorrow?" - more guilt.
So I ignored it, 10 mins later my cell phone rings, then my land line again. No messages left. Used to this one as well - he never leaves a message. If he did, I'd know what he wanted and could make the choice whether to call, better for him to not let me know and keep ringing. Of course, then multiple calls make it look like its an emergency too!
This goes on for HOURS. 40 calls in 2 hours I see today. NO messages left. Eventually, I call him back. All it is hes had a scam phone call and hes WORRIED they're going to take his money. "Did you give them your bank details or anything?" No. SO WHY THE BIG DRAMA?
I told him this could have waited. (To be honest, if he'd have left a message I probably would have called back sooner!) NO I WAS WORRIED!!!! I WANTED TO SORT IT NOW!
In other words, this is what I want to do, and I'll phone you until I get hold of you.
Not happy. 40 CALLS!
If he'd been dying in hospital they'd probably have phoned me 2or 3 times and left a message.....
Am I wrong here but I think its just a really unnacceptable way to behave?
Quote from: Adrianna on September 21, 2019, 02:08:06 PM
So your dad and my grandmother are similar. I haven't been on the forum much the past couple of years. My grandmother is 97, still at home, self centered, fears abandonment, is manipulative, deceitful, a drama queen, complains constantly that no one helps her, and spends literally her entire day wondering when the next person is coming over and what are they going to do for her. She only values people for what they do for her and has no interest in them as human beings. No respect for anyone's time. No ability to see beyond herself. When she gets into rehab she wants to be transferred to another Nursing home asap because they aren't servicing her fast enough. The entitlement is outrageous. When she doesn't get enough attention (narcissistic supply) she falls into narcissistic collapse which is basically her whining constantly, not feeling like eating, and basically acting like breathing is effort. She also likes to pretend she has dementia (she does not.) This usually leads to an ER stay then rehab. I have multiple people going in through two agencies, a friend of the family, her neighbors, a nephews wife (who replaces the last one who moved across the continent), and of course me. And guess what? Still not enough. It's never enough. I'm in therapy and realizing wow I've been emotionally abused my entire life by this woman. Belittled, gaslighted, manipulated, guilt trips, lying. I found out recently she's been telling people for at least 5 years that I don't do enough for her. Underlying sentiment is that I'm no good. Now that she's very old she'll tell people right in front of me "she doesn't do anything for me" while I took time out of work to be there for her at that moment.
I'm pretty pissed off and tired of dealing with this but doing best I can to limit contact. I do all the arranging of services for her but she chooses to believe her doctor does it. So be it. I even had a social worker try to explain to her all the effort I'm doing on her behalf and it fell on deaf ears. I told that social worker thanks for trying but you are wasting your breath. She is incapable of appreciating me or anyone else.
So they don't get better when they age. They get more manipulative, with no filter to even pretend to be nice anymore. She truly has alienated most people with her entitled selfish behavior.
Oh and I'm not 100% sure but I think she fakes illnesses or even an injury recently where she fell in the garage. Hit her head. She had been feeling particularly sad for herself that week (always sad for herself not anyone else) and I fully expected her to place herself on the floor or fall for attention soon then that happened. Maybe she did fall on accident, but wouldn't put it past her to do it on purpose. How sad we have to even think that about someone?
Oh and her son (who told me years ago she's my responsibility now because her house is in my name and he wanted it) is now in rehab himself with few visitors. I'm extremely limited in time I spend with him and am teaching my son who is in his 20's to set firm boundaries with his grandfather. No one should have to be treated like a servant and that's all we are to them.
On a bigger scale, I find their lack of empathy downright opposite to what I thought we as humans were supposed to be. Without empathy, the ability to love, have compassion, have a conscience, what sets us apart from any other animal species? I thought all humans had empathy and it's been a paradigm shift to accept many do not.
I wish I had advice for you beyond low contact, setting boundaries, having zero expectation to be treated like a human being, and therapy. No one who has not experienced a pd family member will ever understand what we go through.
That'll be my Dad when hes 97 too....
Yeh the fake injury thing. Hes done that. As with you, you can sometimes predict when something is going to happen.
Im going on holidays - he's ill the week before.
Not able to go an see him for a weeks - he's ill and has called the doctors out.
Hes a little ill - Fake injury to get himself into hospital.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 21, 2019, 02:08:06 PM
So your dad and my grandmother are similar. I haven't been on the forum much the past couple of years. My grandmother is 97, still at home, self centered, fears abandonment, is manipulative, deceitful, a drama queen, complains constantly that no one helps her, and spends literally her entire day wondering when the next person is coming over and what are they going to do for her. She only values people for what they do for her and has no interest in them as human beings. No respect for anyone's time. No ability to see beyond herself. When she gets into rehab she wants to be transferred to another Nursing home asap because they aren't servicing her fast enough. The entitlement is outrageous. When she doesn't get enough attention (narcissistic supply) she falls into narcissistic collapse which is basically her whining constantly, not feeling like eating, and basically acting like breathing is effort. She also likes to pretend she has dementia (she does not.) This usually leads to an ER stay then rehab. I have multiple people going in through two agencies, a friend of the family, her neighbors, a nephews wife (who replaces the last one who moved across the continent), and of course me. And guess what? Still not enough. It's never enough. I'm in therapy and realizing wow I've been emotionally abused my entire life by this woman. Belittled, gaslighted, manipulated, guilt trips, lying. I found out recently she's been telling people for at least 5 years that I don't do enough for her. Underlying sentiment is that I'm no good. Now that she's very old she'll tell people right in front of me "she doesn't do anything for me" while I took time out of work to be there for her at that moment.
This makes me angry on your behalf Adrianna! I'm glad you're in therapy but sad for the reason. It's disgusting that these disordered people treat us this way. I'm shocked to hear your grandmother is 97 and still at home, still manipulating everyone. I can see this in my future with my mother, she's in her mid 80's and still causing turmoil.
My mother told me in an email that I don't do enough for her and I visit with all these other people SO MUCH more. I don't but she's worked that up in her mind. The "all about me" and "woe is me" inside of them is staggering. I'm angry at myself that I'm usually not strong enough to tell her to stick it. But the last huge email about how awful of a daughter I am put her in a 4 month period of NC. Shocked the hell out of her.
I get angry at myself that she can spew whatever she feels like to get her way but I'm too scared to tell her to shut up and back off. I'm getting stronger now that I have a stress related auto immune disease. I won't let her jeopardize my health anymore. She's done it for far too long. Now my life is about me and my immediate family and friends. The people who don't cause me any stress are the important ones in my life now. :yes:
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:35:09 AM
Last night we had another classic. Land line rings at 5pm. I always avoid answering at this time - 5pm is the time hes realised that I'm not coming to visit and despite me saying I'm busy his guilt trip has now worked that day. So conversation always goes along the lines of "oh so you didn;t visit. where have you been?" i.e. justify it lad and I'm going to make it as awkward as possible, followed by "so you're coming tomorrow?" - more guilt.
So I ignored it, 10 mins later my cell phone rings, then my land line again. No messages left. Used to this one as well - he never leaves a message. If he did, I'd know what he wanted and could make the choice whether to call, better for him to not let me know and keep ringing. Of course, then multiple calls make it look like its an emergency too!
This goes on for HOURS. 40 calls in 2 hours I see today. NO messages left. Eventually, I call him back. All it is hes had a scam phone call and hes WORRIED they're going to take his money. "Did you give them your bank details or anything?" No. SO WHY THE BIG DRAMA?
I told him this could have waited. (To be honest, if he'd have left a message I probably would have called back sooner!) NO I WAS WORRIED!!!! I WANTED TO SORT IT NOW!
In other words, this is what I want to do, and I'll phone you until I get hold of you.
Not happy. 40 CALLS!
If he'd been dying in hospital they'd probably have phoned me 2or 3 times and left a message.....
Am I wrong here but I think its just a really unnacceptable way to behave?
40 phone calls is harassment in my opinion. I don't know about you but I get a visceral reaction when I see her name on my phone. Even still after all these years of dealing with her.
Your dad isn't going to get better and will continue to put a huge strain on your marriage, your kids time with you, and your well-being. I think you're in the UK? Here in US we have agencies that go in to help with housework, groceries, etc. My grandmother loves the attention all on her. No attention is ever too much. Classic narcissism. You may want to look into it.
Well this week has turned into the worst ever with Dad.
I didn't visit him today (I said I was busy!) so I get the sarcastic "busy were you? doing what exactly?" Jeez just leave me alone will you.
It gets worse. I thought he'd forgotten about his birthday and his idea that my wife should ring him. Hes off again "So why didnt she ring me then?". I replied "Dad just leave it, don't worry about". Hes off "well I never see, she never does anything for me, I see her about once a year". I've no idea whats started this again. Hes obviously decided that this weekend is the time to up the pressure on me to visit, and also, my wife needs to know her place too.
I don't understand. They were never close anyway. Just a polite hello. Why on earth is he insisting she ring him and he sees her more? They've not even spoken for 18 months. He seems REALLY REALLY annoyed about it and won;t let it go.
It is, of course, hes got an idea in his head that she should respect him and ring him. Like I said, pay homage and "kiss the ring". Of course, shes refusing to do so and he doesnt like not getting his own way. I just dont get it. Isnt this narcisstic supply though? When he does things like this that make no sense it does confirm to me that hes got reasons for doing this.
I was off with him and told him that if she didnt want to ring him then thats the way it was. He got defensive then - as he does - hes careful not to upset me since I'm the main supplier! Said "oh its ok its not your fault!". As if thats ok then.
Jeez- I cant tell my wife what he said she'd explode!
He did say "I only see her xmas day". Ummm not this year. This is going to be a big battle.....
Im past caring. He is making me ill now. I can't sleep, I'm snappy with the family..... The way I feel at the moment I could just do without seeing him ever again.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 22, 2019, 05:14:31 PM
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:35:09 AM
Last night we had another classic. Land line rings at 5pm. I always avoid answering at this time - 5pm is the time hes realised that I'm not coming to visit and despite me saying I'm busy his guilt trip has now worked that day. So conversation always goes along the lines of "oh so you didn;t visit. where have you been?" i.e. justify it lad and I'm going to make it as awkward as possible, followed by "so you're coming tomorrow?" - more guilt.
So I ignored it, 10 mins later my cell phone rings, then my land line again. No messages left. Used to this one as well - he never leaves a message. If he did, I'd know what he wanted and could make the choice whether to call, better for him to not let me know and keep ringing. Of course, then multiple calls make it look like its an emergency too!
This goes on for HOURS. 40 calls in 2 hours I see today. NO messages left. Eventually, I call him back. All it is hes had a scam phone call and hes WORRIED they're going to take his money. "Did you give them your bank details or anything?" No. SO WHY THE BIG DRAMA?
I told him this could have waited. (To be honest, if he'd have left a message I probably would have called back sooner!) NO I WAS WORRIED!!!! I WANTED TO SORT IT NOW!
In other words, this is what I want to do, and I'll phone you until I get hold of you.
Not happy. 40 CALLS!
If he'd been dying in hospital they'd probably have phoned me 2or 3 times and left a message.....
Am I wrong here but I think its just a really unnacceptable way to behave?
40 phone calls is harassment in my opinion. I don't know about you but I get a visceral reaction when I see her name on my phone. Even still after all these years of dealing with her.
Your dad isn't going to get better and will continue to put a huge strain on your marriage, your kids time with you, and your well-being. I think you're in the UK? Here in US we have agencies that go in to help with housework, groceries, etc. My grandmother loves the attention all on her. No attention is ever too much. Classic narcissism. You may want to look into it.
Crazy isnt it? He wont leave a message just will ring again and again until he gets what he wants.
He knows if he leaves a message, then he looses the power of me not knowing what the purpose of the call was and reacting appropriately. He likes to make it look SERIOUS.
Yes Im in the UK. Oh yes he could get plenty of help but he won't. He likes getting me to do it.
Narcissim. Oh yes. See my post about his attitude because my wife didnt ring him on his birthday.
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:16:55 PM
... I thought he'd forgotten about his birthday and his idea that my wife should ring him. Hes off again "So why didnt she ring me then?". I replied "Dad just leave it, don't worry about". Hes off "well I never see, she never does anything for me, I see her about once a year". I've no idea whats started this again. Hes obviously decided that this weekend is the time to up the pressure on me to visit, and also, my wife needs to know her place too.
It's that ENTITLEMENT coming into play again. Your dad thinks he's "special". He's unaware that he has pissed off your wife. I know it's hard to wrap your head around, but he really doesn't think he's done anything wrong. And so your wife-- someone in his orbit-- should orbit around him, The Sun. LOL.
The reason he's putting pressure on you this weekend is because it's HIS BIRTHDAY. So yeah, you and your wife and everyone else in his orbit needs to bow down and worship the great and almighty DAD. HE's SPECIAL. HE'S ENTITLED.
I'm sorry he's making you ill. I finally said "Enough is enough" because the N in my life was making it a holy hell-- affecting my mental and physical health. :no: Time to limit contact and let the chips fall where they may. Go into your house, hunker down and block your dad from calling. It's not worth sacrificing your health for someone who is a bottomless pit of need and will never change, only get worse.
Hey p123 I would encourage you to look at this like this for a moment. If you had a girlfriend that left 40+ missed calls for you over a nonissue, would she still be your girlfriend after that? Or would your eyes bug a bit and you say to yourself "OMG! She's got crazy stamped in her forehead! I better run while I still can!" Just let that thought turn over in your mind for a bit.
And yes, sounds like your dad is escalating. He is pushing you to "put your wife in her place."
Yeah he literally can not understand why your wife isn't catering to him because they can't see people as actual humans apart from what they can do for them. He has no concept that he's offended your wife, that she has a life of her own, that it's her decision whether she contacts him or not, and that she has feelings. She is literally a thing for attention, as are you. Neither of you matter to him apart from the attention you give. Sorry to be blunt but this is how narcissism works.
Narc supply is behaving, is treated ok.
Narc supply is not behaving, is treated poorly.
Behaving = giving attention and complying with all demands no matter how outrageous. Aka being a doormat.
When nana gets a new neighbor, she always says "I hope they're good to me." It's their twisted view of reality. They do not see others as separate people, only a source of narcissistic supply.
Your dad wants you to do it all? This is on you now. He's been treating you this way because you've had low boundaries. How many more demands are you going to give in to? He's already draining you. I know how manipulative he is. Nana is the same. I recognize the tricks. They can't be trusted sadly. They cause chaos and confusion, drama and stress.
Ask him for his credit card then order the groceries for him.
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 22, 2019, 08:45:19 AM
Quote from: Adrianna on September 21, 2019, 02:08:06 PM
So your dad and my grandmother are similar. I haven't been on the forum much the past couple of years. My grandmother is 97, still at home, self centered, fears abandonment, is manipulative, deceitful, a drama queen, complains constantly that no one helps her, and spends literally her entire day wondering when the next person is coming over and what are they going to do for her. She only values people for what they do for her and has no interest in them as human beings. No respect for anyone's time. No ability to see beyond herself. When she gets into rehab she wants to be transferred to another Nursing home asap because they aren't servicing her fast enough. The entitlement is outrageous. When she doesn't get enough attention (narcissistic supply) she falls into narcissistic collapse which is basically her whining constantly, not feeling like eating, and basically acting like breathing is effort. She also likes to pretend she has dementia (she does not.) This usually leads to an ER stay then rehab. I have multiple people going in through two agencies, a friend of the family, her neighbors, a nephews wife (who replaces the last one who moved across the continent), and of course me. And guess what? Still not enough. It's never enough. I'm in therapy and realizing wow I've been emotionally abused my entire life by this woman. Belittled, gaslighted, manipulated, guilt trips, lying. I found out recently she's been telling people for at least 5 years that I don't do enough for her. Underlying sentiment is that I'm no good. Now that she's very old she'll tell people right in front of me "she doesn't do anything for me" while I took time out of work to be there for her at that moment.
This makes me angry on your behalf Adrianna! I'm glad you're in therapy but sad for the reason. It's disgusting that these disordered people treat us this way. I'm shocked to hear your grandmother is 97 and still at home, still manipulating everyone. I can see this in my future with my mother, she's in her mid 80's and still causing turmoil.
My mother told me in an email that I don't do enough for her and I visit with all these other people SO MUCH more. I don't but she's worked that up in her mind. The "all about me" and "woe is me" inside of them is staggering. I'm angry at myself that I'm usually not strong enough to tell her to stick it. But the last huge email about how awful of a daughter I am put her in a 4 month period of NC. Shocked the hell out of her.
I get angry at myself that she can spew whatever she feels like to get her way but I'm too scared to tell her to shut up and back off. I'm getting stronger now that I have a stress related auto immune disease. I won't let her jeopardize my health anymore. She's done it for far too long. Now my life is about me and my immediate family and friends. The people who don't cause me any stress are the important ones in my life now. :yes:
You are so sweet! I'm angry that so many people are drained by this behavior. No one deserves to be treated like this.
I'm sorry for your health issues and wonder how much of that was from the stress she puts you through. It can take a toll. It took my mother getting sick and dying for me to realize what am I doing catering to my grandmother? For what? She doesn't appreciate it. She has no interest in me as a human being. Life is short. I have set boundaries but she still tests them. I keep setting them. I do a lot of behind the scenes work arranging services, taking to doctor, social worker, etc. but my actual time with her is limited as well as phone calls. I just can't be around her without feeling drained. I slept over her house one night after she got out of rehab (under their recommendations) to make sure she was ok which she was. Next morning I felt like I had been through war. Splitting headache, exhausted, tired. They will drain your energy just being around them.
People finally know now how she is because at her age the mask has fallen and her true self is on display and it's not a great thing to witness. I hope you can set your boundaries now and don't wait like I did. I spent many many years trying to please someone who can never be pleased, or grateful, or love me. Time I could have spent doing productive things, building relationships with other people, building a relationship with myself. What a wasted effort.
Adrianna - I'm so sorry your grandmother is *still* going strong! :aaauuugh: :spooked:
I hope your remember to take time for yourself and realize she is NOT the center of the universe. :yes:
And, being the evil little duck that I am, if your grandma thinks you do nothing for her, and tells others the same thing - that's *exactly* what I'd do. I'd hand ALL responsibility for her over to *strangers* and let them sort it - while you walk away, and leave her to it. :ninja:
If she's going to accuse you of doing nothing for her, that's your Get Out of Jail Free Card. 8-)
I'd do the same for your father, too - maybe they can wind up sharing a room, at the same Assisted Living. :rofl:
P123 - what I see is a toddler having a tantrum, because he feels he's losing *control* of you and the entire situation, so he's going to keep you completely off-balance, so you don't realize *you really are the one calling all the shots.*
Yes - on some level, he *does* get that. If he needs something and you don't do it, it's not going to get done, so he'll just keep pushing buttons, hoping to make you explode at him - so he can look like a *victim* and you feel guilty as hell, so you just shut up and do as you're told.
Your father knows EXACTLY what he's doing in calling you over 40 times in two hours (he'd be BLOCKED on my phone and I wouldn't call for at least a week, after that stunt! >:(), demanding visits, demanding to know what you're doing, and demanding your wife call him. It's all about HIS CONTROL and he is *not* going to give it up.
So it falls to you to *prevent* him from being able to do these things. Block his number once he calls more than twice, or on weekends, if you want peace and quiet, then just look at your VM somewhere around Thursday, and see if there's anything important. :yes:
If he won't leave messages (I HATE that! UnBPD Didi was big on that tactic, too, and all Ray would say was, "Call me back. I gotta ask/tell you something." ARRRRRRGH! :hulk:), then his needs don't get seen to. It's that simple. If you can't SAY what you want, you don't get it - I don't read minds. :ninja:
I suspect you don't, either. :no:
You might consider blocking him at all times, and call him when you *want* to - and if that's every other Sunday evening, that's *fine.* :yes:
If you want to do his shopping, once a month - that's what you DO, and you *don't* go to the store he wants you to go to, because he likes their stuff better. Go to the closest one, drop off the stuff, and if he complains, you can always say, "Dad. You can have me bring things once a month from store X, or have your own groceries delivered. Those are your options - and I can always narrow it down for you by telling you I won't be coming back, so make up your mind." :ninja:
That's playing hardball: Yes or no. Take it or leave it. Those are your options. *And you can start limiting those options FOR them, at any time.* :yes:
That's the *consequence* of him acting so badly - you push back, and you push back *hard.*
If you decide to go with a permanent phone block (and I WOULD), please know your dad isn't going to wither away and die - he's got a phone, and he'll call your brother, or possibly his doctor or an ambulance, but he will NOT go without - you just won't be the one providing the supply. :)
When your dad asks what you were doing that you couldn't visit him, stick to, "I was busy." If he wants to know with what, state only, "Asked and answered - I was busy. Change the subject or I'm ending the call." :ninja:
Wife won't call? She's BUSY. With what? Asked and answered - she's busy. Change the subject or I'm ending the call. :ninja:
I think you're going to be doing a lot of that - that was how I had to treat Didi and Ray, too. Just because they thought they were the centers of the universe, doesn't mean they get to harsh my mellow! :bigwink:
:hug:
Quote from: illogical on September 22, 2019, 06:23:16 PM
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:16:55 PM
... I thought he'd forgotten about his birthday and his idea that my wife should ring him. Hes off again "So why didnt she ring me then?". I replied "Dad just leave it, don't worry about". Hes off "well I never see, she never does anything for me, I see her about once a year". I've no idea whats started this again. Hes obviously decided that this weekend is the time to up the pressure on me to visit, and also, my wife needs to know her place too.
It's that ENTITLEMENT coming into play again. Your dad thinks he's "special". He's unaware that he has pissed off your wife. I know it's hard to wrap your head around, but he really doesn't think he's done anything wrong. And so your wife-- someone in his orbit-- should orbit around him, The Sun. LOL.
The reason he's putting pressure on you this weekend is because it's HIS BIRTHDAY. So yeah, you and your wife and everyone else in his orbit needs to bow down and worship the great and almighty DAD. HE's SPECIAL. HE'S ENTITLED.
I'm sorry he's making you ill. I finally said "Enough is enough" because the N in my life was making it a holy hell-- affecting my mental and physical health. :no: Time to limit contact and let the chips fall where they may. Go into your house, hunker down and block your dad from calling. It's not worth sacrificing your health for someone who is a bottomless pit of need and will never change, only get worse.
Hmm yeh. Maybe his birthday has got him thinking like you said.
Oh yes it defines belief that he thinks my wife is not upset at him. He seems to blank things hes done - its weird. Even more strange is the fact that its obviously burning him up inside that someone is not doing exactly what he wants them to. He gains nothing really if my wife is speaking to him or not - hes just doing this to prove a point.
Its getting worse and worse and worse to be honest.
Quote from: Andeza on September 22, 2019, 06:25:19 PM
Hey p123 I would encourage you to look at this like this for a moment. If you had a girlfriend that left 40+ missed calls for you over a nonissue, would she still be your girlfriend after that? Or would your eyes bug a bit and you say to yourself "OMG! She's got crazy stamped in her forehead! I better run while I still can!" Just let that thought turn over in your mind for a bit.
And yes, sounds like your dad is escalating. He is pushing you to "put your wife in her place."
Yes this is true of course.
Hmm yes his views on marriages and relationships are legendary. In the past hes said I should "have a word with her". Yes nice. Wonder why hes been divorced twice.
For years my wife and I have argued about it. Shes not the most forgiving so could have been more lenient with him. Then he pushed it and pushed and was really badly behaved so now I FULLY support her. If she doesn't want anything to do with him why should she? Its her choice and I completely understand why.
Shes fine now. She understands its a little more complicated with me and cuts me slack but she does not want anything to do with him. Its fair.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 22, 2019, 06:26:35 PM
Yeah he literally can not understand why your wife isn't catering to him because they can't see people as actual humans apart from what they can do for them. He has no concept that he's offended your wife, that she has a life of her own, that it's her decision whether she contacts him or not, and that she has feelings. She is literally a thing for attention, as are you. Neither of you matter to him apart from the attention you give. Sorry to be blunt but this is how narcissism works.
Narc supply is behaving, is treated ok.
Narc supply is not behaving, is treated poorly.
Behaving = giving attention and complying with all demands no matter how outrageous. Aka being a doormat.
When nana gets a new neighbor, she always says "I hope they're good to me." It's their twisted view of reality. They do not see others as separate people, only a source of narcissistic supply.
Your dad wants you to do it all? This is on you now. He's been treating you this way because you've had low boundaries. How many more demands are you going to give in to? He's already draining you. I know how manipulative he is. Nana is the same. I recognize the tricks. They can't be trusted sadly. They cause chaos and confusion, drama and stress.
Ask him for his credit card then order the groceries for him.
Yes when he said this yesterday it because obvious that a NORMAL person would not get so wound up at this. So what? You're daughter-in-law hasn't made a special effort to phone you on your birthday - whats the big deal?
I have a good relationship with my MIL. She has her moments (like all old people lol) but shes pretty good. She helps out with childcare, the kids love her to bits (they couldn't give a monkeys about Grampy - because hes not interested in them - his bed lie in it). I don't phone her specially on her birthday if shes at home. Obviously, if I see her I'll wish her happy birthday.
I'd find it weird if my wife said to me "you have to phone my mother to wish her happy birthday". I'd think then hang on whats this all about?
So for him to mention this twice now and get so annoyed at it really does prove there is something not wired correctly here.
Oh and he did say he only sees her once a year. What he means is not that he misses her, its just she only bothers to see him once a year to pay homage. Its not even going to be once this year - xmas day is off - thats going to be a fun conversation. Even if we do boxing day - wife has volunteered to work so wont be there....
Quote from: WomanInterrupted on September 22, 2019, 10:53:00 PM
Adrianna - I'm so sorry your grandmother is *still* going strong! :aaauuugh: :spooked:
I hope your remember to take time for yourself and realize she is NOT the center of the universe. :yes:
And, being the evil little duck that I am, if your grandma thinks you do nothing for her, and tells others the same thing - that's *exactly* what I'd do. I'd hand ALL responsibility for her over to *strangers* and let them sort it - while you walk away, and leave her to it. :ninja:
If she's going to accuse you of doing nothing for her, that's your Get Out of Jail Free Card. 8-)
I'd do the same for your father, too - maybe they can wind up sharing a room, at the same Assisted Living. :rofl:
P123 - what I see is a toddler having a tantrum, because he feels he's losing *control* of you and the entire situation, so he's going to keep you completely off-balance, so you don't realize *you really are the one calling all the shots.*
Yes - on some level, he *does* get that. If he needs something and you don't do it, it's not going to get done, so he'll just keep pushing buttons, hoping to make you explode at him - so he can look like a *victim* and you feel guilty as hell, so you just shut up and do as you're told.
Your father knows EXACTLY what he's doing in calling you over 40 times in two hours (he'd be BLOCKED on my phone and I wouldn't call for at least a week, after that stunt! >:(), demanding visits, demanding to know what you're doing, and demanding your wife call him. It's all about HIS CONTROL and he is *not* going to give it up.
So it falls to you to *prevent* him from being able to do these things. Block his number once he calls more than twice, or on weekends, if you want peace and quiet, then just look at your VM somewhere around Thursday, and see if there's anything important. :yes:
If he won't leave messages (I HATE that! UnBPD Didi was big on that tactic, too, and all Ray would say was, "Call me back. I gotta ask/tell you something." ARRRRRRGH! :hulk:), then his needs don't get seen to. It's that simple. If you can't SAY what you want, you don't get it - I don't read minds. :ninja:
I suspect you don't, either. :no:
You might consider blocking him at all times, and call him when you *want* to - and if that's every other Sunday evening, that's *fine.* :yes:
If you want to do his shopping, once a month - that's what you DO, and you *don't* go to the store he wants you to go to, because he likes their stuff better. Go to the closest one, drop off the stuff, and if he complains, you can always say, "Dad. You can have me bring things once a month from store X, or have your own groceries delivered. Those are your options - and I can always narrow it down for you by telling you I won't be coming back, so make up your mind." :ninja:
That's playing hardball: Yes or no. Take it or leave it. Those are your options. *And you can start limiting those options FOR them, at any time.* :yes:
That's the *consequence* of him acting so badly - you push back, and you push back *hard.*
If you decide to go with a permanent phone block (and I WOULD), please know your dad isn't going to wither away and die - he's got a phone, and he'll call your brother, or possibly his doctor or an ambulance, but he will NOT go without - you just won't be the one providing the supply. :)
When your dad asks what you were doing that you couldn't visit him, stick to, "I was busy." If he wants to know with what, state only, "Asked and answered - I was busy. Change the subject or I'm ending the call." :ninja:
Wife won't call? She's BUSY. With what? Asked and answered - she's busy. Change the subject or I'm ending the call. :ninja:
I think you're going to be doing a lot of that - that was how I had to treat Didi and Ray, too. Just because they thought they were the centers of the universe, doesn't mean they get to harsh my mellow! :bigwink:
:hug:
Thanks WI - I just find it so hard.
And I'm really rubbish at arguing with people. I guess Dad has worked this one out.....
One thing I could change about myself is I wish I didnt get so wound up about it.....
I did block his phone on Saturday. Its crazy what he did but hes done it so many times.
Im betting at 505pm I'll get a call. He knows mostly I leave work at 5pm. Can guarantee he'll be ill or need the doctor or something. It will include me having to visit because "hes worried" or "might need someone to take him to hospital". No way Jose.
I agree hes upping his game because hes losing control. His birthday last week he didnt get the respect he wanted so hes kicking off now.
I understand the trips to the doctor. Nana was claiming to be dying of pneumonia a couple of weeks ago.
"I didn't think I'd make it through the night Adrianna." :violin: Lying in bed, can barely move, whining. I said you have pneumonia? I'll call the ambulance. She got her attention, a ride to hospital, nothing wrong with her. Very slight cough, no fever, all tests clear. She's been "dying" for 10 years. There have been many hospital visits with nothing wrong.
I'm kind of at the point now where I'm just going to shut off my phone at work. She tells housekeeper she's in misery, her leg hurts, etc then the housekeeper calls the agency, they call the other agency, and I get a call. Nana knows this. She knows they will call me. She enjoys bothering me. When I tell her I got a call because she whined to the staff that she needed a doctor, she denies saying anything to the housekeeper. It's all a game. A sick game for attention. And it doesn't get better, they just get better at playing the game. They get more skilled at manipulation, and lies, and guilt trips.
I used to answer every call from her, run over there, try to help. Now when she leaves me whining messages that she's had a rough day and needs me to call her as soon as I walk in the door after working a full day, I press delete. Don't call. Honestly don't have the energy. He will drain you if you let him. I agree with shutting off the phone. Believe me they find a way to get their needs met. They will find another source of attention aka narcissistic supply. They are quite skilled at it. It doesn't have to always be you.
I've done a lot of research on narcissism and it's helped me wrap my head around their behaviors. It's a life changing process though. There's a lot to learn about their disorder. You'll never look at humanity the same way again.
I'm currently reading M.Scott Peck's People of the Lie. It's a pretty famous book which touches on narcissism. Not an easy read by any means but an important book.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 23, 2019, 05:22:06 AM
I understand the trips to the doctor. Nana was claiming to be dying of pneumonia a couple of weeks ago.
"I didn't think I'd make it through the night Adrianna." :violin: Lying in bed, can barely move, whining. I said you have pneumonia? I'll call the ambulance. She got her attention, a ride to hospital, nothing wrong with her. Very slight cough, no fever, all tests clear. She's been "dying" for 10 years. There have been many hospital visits with nothing wrong.
I'm kind of at the point now where I'm just going to shut off my phone at work. She tells housekeeper she's in misery, her leg hurts, etc then the housekeeper calls the agency, they call the other agency, and I get a call. Nana knows this. She knows they will call me. She enjoys bothering me. When I tell her I got a call because she whined to the staff that she needed a doctor, she denies saying anything to the housekeeper. It's all a game. A sick game for attention. And it doesn't get better, they just get better at playing the game. They get more skilled at manipulation, and lies, and guilt trips.
I used to answer every call from her, run over there, try to help. Now when she leaves me whining messages that she's had a rough day and needs me to call her as soon as I walk in the door after working a full day, I press delete. Don't call. Honestly don't have the energy. He will drain you if you let him. I agree with shutting off the phone. Believe me they find a way to get their needs met. They will find another source of attention aka narcissistic supply. They are quite skilled at it. It doesn't have to always be you.
I've done a lot of research on narcissism and it's helped me wrap my head around their behaviors. It's a life changing process though. There's a lot to learn about their disorder. You'll never look at humanity the same way again.
I'm currently reading M.Scott Peck's People of the Lie. It's a pretty famous book which touches on narcissism. Not an easy read by any means but an important book.
Thanks Adrianna. EXACTLY like Dad. He does this all the time.
If I dont answer he calls brother and tells him to facebook me. Hes blocked now after an abusive incident. I got to be fair though I am sometimes impressed at how he never gives in and keeps trying....
His classic is "my legs hurt and I can't get around". Hes 85 and his health is very very good for his age. Yes his knees are bad but he can walk about 1/2 a mile. BUT he doesnt take the does of painkillers his GP gave him - because his friend said they're not good for you. You can see how much sympathy I've got if he wont listen to the experts?
Thing is my wife is a Dsitrict nurse (do they call it visiting nurse in the us?) She tells me about people stuck in bed all day, no family who visit and then theres Dad whos got friends, family etc, can get out of the house and treats everyone like complete crap. Winds me up.
Yup all sounds familiar. Nana is 97 and mobile, walks well and is mentally very sharp. However given how much attention she's getting that day, you may find her barely walking, pretending to have dementia and in "misery" from some made up ailment. All to get attention, pity, sympathy and compassion from people who are quite honestly drained and now, in my case, repulsed by her conscious or unconscious manipulation.
She however thinks she has it worse than most people. Has only had a couple glimpses of understanding, ever, that there are humans on the planet worse off than her and those glimpses were few and far between. She is ungrateful, unappreciative and of course entitled. It's her world and we just live in it.
Narcissists do not age well. Whatever aging gracefully is, they do the opposite.
You're in for a rough ride but it's good that you're seeing it now and understanding this person will drain you if you let him. It's all about boundaries and NOT packing your bags when he sends you on a guilt trip. Which he will do, continually, likely for as long as he lives. They do not change.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 23, 2019, 07:50:59 AM
Yup all sounds familiar. Nana is 97 and mobile, walks well and is mentally very sharp. However given how much attention she's getting that day, you may find her barely walking, pretending to have dementia and in "misery" from some made up ailment. All to get attention, pity, sympathy and compassion from people who are quite honestly drained and now, in my case, repulsed by her conscious or unconscious manipulation.
She however thinks she has it worse than most people. Has only had a couple glimpses of understanding, ever, that there are humans on the planet worse off than her and those glimpses were few and far between. She is ungrateful, unappreciative and of course entitled. It's her world and we just live in it.
Narcissists do not age well. Whatever aging gracefully is, they do the opposite.
You're in for a rough ride but it's good that you're seeing it now and understanding this person will drain you if you let him. It's all about boundaries and NOT packing your bags when he sends you on a guilt trip. Which he will do, continually, likely for as long as he lives. They do not change.
Reminds me of one xmas day at our house. Dad moaned and moaned all morning. Made out he was dying....
Slouched across the living room at about 1 foot a minute to prove a point. This is the guy who can walk 1/2 mile to the betting shop every day!
Complete nightmare he was. He might as well have put a sign around his neck saying "ME ME ME"
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:16:55 PM
It gets worse. I thought he'd forgotten about his birthday and his idea that my wife should ring him. Hes off again "So why didnt she ring me then?". I replied "Dad just leave it, don't worry about". Hes off "well I never see, she never does anything for me, I see her about once a year".
Since they say whatever they feel like saying, wouldn't it be nice to do the same in return? Such as "well dad, my wife was and still is livid that you put down our son and his birthday gift to you". "As a little boy, he thought a pop up balloon was a fantastic gift for his grandfather but you angrily told him to put it away and you eventually threw it away as if it was rubbish, right in front of him."
Also how freeing to mention that your wife isn't property or paid help, she doesn't NEED to do a darn thing for you and doesn't want to see you again. And when he bosses people around and uses guilt trips to have people visit it isn't very endearing and severely puts people off from wanting to visit at all.
I realize using medium chill and gray rock methods are the preferred ways to cut a conversation short with disordered people. After all, if we confronted them with their own terrible treatment of others it might start WWIII. But how nice it would feel to blast them with the reality of the situation.
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 23, 2019, 10:03:34 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 22, 2019, 05:16:55 PM
It gets worse. I thought he'd forgotten about his birthday and his idea that my wife should ring him. Hes off again "So why didnt she ring me then?". I replied "Dad just leave it, don't worry about". Hes off "well I never see, she never does anything for me, I see her about once a year".
Since they say whatever they feel like saying, wouldn't it be nice to do the same in return? Such as "well dad, my wife was and still is livid that you put down our son and his birthday gift to you". "As a little boy, he thought a pop up balloon was a fantastic gift for his grandfather but you angrily told him to put it away and you eventually threw it away as if it was rubbish, right in front of him."
Also how freeing to mention that your wife isn't property or paid help, she doesn't NEED to do a darn thing for you and doesn't want to see you again. And when he bosses people around and uses guilt trips to have people visit it isn't very endearing and severely puts people off from wanting to visit at all.
I realize using medium chill and gray rock methods are the preferred ways to cut a conversation short with disordered people. After all, if we confronted them with their own terrible treatment of others it might start WWIII. But how nice it would feel to blast them with the reality of the situation.
Of course he wont remember ANY of these incidents..... Gone under the carpet now.
Even the one from the summer where I refused to phone him when I was away (no emergency just him being him!) and he got brother to facebook message both me and my wife to tell us we HAD to call Dad. (Flying monkey brother). Then he decided to call my wife a selfish B word.
Yes of course, you're really going to have a special relationship with your daughter in law after that one! (he denies he asked brother to contact me, but he'd done the same 3/4 times before so I know the truth).
His attitude towards women is VERY VERY strange. He honestly thinks a husband can "have a word with his wife" and "sort her out". Its like the 1940s in his head I'm sure.
I can imagine telling my wife what he said last night - that she "has" to phone him because its his birthday.
I've done a lot of research on narcissism and it's helped me wrap my head around their behaviors. It's a life changing process though. There's a lot to learn about their disorder. You'll never look at humanity the same way again.
Adrianna , this is so so true. I see it everywhere now, even in me.
Of course his behavior is getting worse, its working! It's getting him what he wants which is for you to answer him. Why are you rewarding his 40 phone call tantrum? His endless calling wouldn't be bothering you if you'd blocked his numbers for the night. You're never going to change his behavior, you can only change how you respond.
Quote from: Hazy111 on September 23, 2019, 10:53:43 AM
I've done a lot of research on narcissism and it's helped me wrap my head around their behaviors. It's a life changing process though. There's a lot to learn about their disorder. You'll never look at humanity the same way again.
Adrianna , this is so so true. I see it everywhere now, even in me.
We all have a bit of narcissism in us. However if you think you see it in yourself, then you're not a narcissist. They don't self reflect or take responsibility for their actions.
I agree with Fiasco - your dad has upped his game and *you're letting him "win."* :aaauuugh:
What I'd do, from this point on, if I were you, is block his number *permanently* and call only when YOU *want* to - and for me, that wouldn't be often. Not even once a month, and for five minutes, at most. :yes:
There is nothing you *have* to do for your father - including his shopping, listening to him moan, or any of it. If he wants or needs something, he can call and get it himself, or call your brother - but you don't have to be involved in any of it. :yes:
Your dad is only going to keep ramping up the bad behavior - last time, it was 40 calls in 2 hours. Next time, it might be 80 calls in 3 hours. Does *that* sound reasonable to you? :stars:
BTW - IME, anybody calling you that much does NOT have anything important to say. They just want your attention, for whatever reason, and they're going to keep annoying the living hell out of you until they get it - unless you be pro-active and take countermeasures, like blocking the number.
If your dad won't leave VM's - well, that's his loss. :doh:
He can either *learn* (I know! But stranger things have happened! :upsidedown:) - or get your brother to do it for him.
Those are his options - those are the options he's left *himself* by abusing his access to you. If he's going to take advantage of it, to harass and intimidate you, then he *loses that access.* :ninja:
Your dad WILL figure things out on his own, or find others to do things for him. That's just how it works on Planet PD - and I don't know *where* they find these people, but they always manage to find them. :roll:
It wouldn't surprise me if your dad picks up a few minions at the betting office. He'll use them up until they figure out what he's really like, and then he'll be on to the next person in line.
If your dad decides to punish you by having himself hospitalized or winds up at the ER - don't go. Stay home. You are NOT an on-demand visitor and you have your own life to see to - that comes *first.* 8-)
What you *can* do is contact a social worker and explain the situation - you think your dad needs help, but he's too damned stubborn, doesn't want anybody but you doing anything for him, but you *can't* keep up with the demands, so you've blocked his number.
Can they check on him and try to convince him to go into Assisted Living - or send somebody around periodically, to make sure he doesn't fall through the cracks?
I'm not quite sure how it works in the UK, but it sounds similar to the US. Talk to a social worker and make your dad *their* problem - while you stay out of it completely. :ninja:
If your brother shows up at yours, don't let him in. If he won't leave and is creating a fuss outside, call the police and have him removed from your property. :police:
These are all things you CAN do - you just have to give yourself *permission* to do them. :yes:
It's OKAY to block your dad's number permanently. He is not going to die or go without. He's been using people for so long that he's practically got it down to an art form, and won't want for anything, for very long.
And think about it this way: if you didn't exist, your dad would *still* manage. :yes:
We've been conditioned for so long to think we must take care of their needs, that we often forget they'd still manage if we'd never been born - or if we took jobs halfway around the world, with spotty internet and phone service.
They *would* figure it out - they just don't WANT to because we're the easiest people to manipulate, to get what they want.
Once we make that difficult, they move onto the next easiest person on the list, and the one after that, and the one after that. It's just another day for them, as long as they're getting what they want.
Allow yourself to believe that, because it's *true.* If you took a job in the US - say The Mouse wanted to hire you - you could NOT do the shopping. You wouldn't be flying back to Blighty, on a weekly or monthly basis just because he needs bread and toilet tissue!
But your dad will not *accept that* because he doesn't CARE about you or where you live, or what you do! He'd expect you to drop everything and fly back - and come back for every single ache and pain he has, regardless of the distance, because it's all about HIM. :roll:
Forcing the issue - blocking his number - hammers home your point. No, you are NOT on-call to do a thing, and you will contact him when you *want* to - and IF you want to. You do not live to serve. :no:
It doesn't matter if you live half a world away, fifty miles - or 3 miles away, which was the distance Didi and Ray's place was from ours. :blink:
Yeah - three miles. But it may have well been an entire ocean, because *I made it that way by enforcing my BOUNDARIES.* 8-)
Yes - I had to enforce *my rules* for *myself* - and stick to them. I couldn't change Didi or Ray, but I could change *me* and my responses - IF I even chose to respond. :ninja:
You CAN do this, P123! :cheer: :cheer:
:hug:
Cheers WI - Im kicking myself for phoning him on Saturday. Should have just blocked him.
I've realised that no matter how many times I tell him that things like letters hes recieved or calls hes had, can wait until the next working day. They do not have to be dealt with 24/7 but he ignores this.
Right what you say about him finding minions. I've seen it over the years many many times.... He uses people, takes them for granted.
His older sister did his laundry for years because he refused to buy a washing machine. I asked her NOT to offer to force him to get a washing machine but she felt sorry for him.. It was REALLY funny years later when she was still doing it and couldnt cope. Her fault.
A lovely lady used to give him a life to church. He took advantage. Then he'd say "she never goes, or shes away all the time these days", then "shes selling her car". It was obvious this poor lady had had enough of him.
Currently his cousin takes him to hospital appointments. Carry on. This same cousin has criticised me in the past. I spoke to him the other day and laughed inside when he told me how Dad was taking advantage a bit. Welcome to my life - now you know.
I'd love to live in the US. Not only just to get away from Dad. Alas, I'd have to marry someone american I think!
(although I've heard you get like 10 days vacation a YEAR. WOW WOW WOW! I cant do that!)
Oh yes they will find recruits. They always do. Bottom line is, and this was the hardest thing to accept, they don't care about you, your time, your life, your job, your feelings, your family, your needs. All they care about is what you can do for them. They don't even see us as people. We are servants. They are that self absorbed.
Nana has been trying to recruit a distant family member who in the past year had lost her husband and father. Woman's been through a lot. Usually I don't get involved but when she called me asking why my grandmother was trying to get her to do things for her, I warned her. Said you'll be in a life of servitude if you start. She's been keeping her distance which pisses my grandmother off. Yesterday my grandmother left her a message saying "I'm alive and in Hell" under the guise of her calling the wrong number (she does know another person by the same name). Unlikely she called the wrong number. The other person with same name is her neighbor who she's been badgering for years and knows her Number well.) Intent- get that new woman over there to check on her of course, suck her in, get the next victim in line. She called me and I said she's fine, just looking for attention and sympathy. I've told her if you want to visit or start doing things that's your choice but be warned. She's been through so much I felt I owed it to her to save her from the misery.
Nana has plenty of people going over every day of the week. It's not like she's abandoned.
As it was the nephews wife who helps had a rough past couple years. Her husband had cancer, is doing well now, recovered, but I had warned this woman from the start, don't tell my grandmother. She would have made it all about herself, whine to everyone that her nephew has cancer to get attention and sympathy, what will she do, who will help her, his wife will be busy and unavailable, what will happen to HER? I said if you tell her about your husband's cancer, not only will you have to cope with his illness, you will have to calm down this woman and comfort her over your own husband's illness! How backwards is that? That's how it works in this pd world. She realizes now good thing she didn't tell her. It would have made the situation ten thousand times worse.
They will burn through caregivers. She had one nephews wife move across the continent. She was elderly herself and my grandmother treated her like a dog. This new nephews wife is hanging in there but she has to pray on the way over there for strength as do I! Keep in mind there will likely be flying monkeys along the way. On my case it's her neighbor and her husband. They have done a lot for her but are usually the ones who make excuses for her. "Oh it's just regular aging ." No it's not. They would never treat their family that way. One of them had a pd father so was used to the emotional abuse and thinks it's normal. It's not.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 24, 2019, 05:15:06 AM
Oh yes they will find recruits. They always do. Bottom line is, and this was the hardest thing to accept, they don't care about you, your time, your life, your job, your feelings, your family, your needs. All they care about is what you can do for them. They don't even see us as people. We are servants. They are that self absorbed.
Nana has been trying to recruit a distant family member who in the past year had lost her husband and father. Woman's been through a lot. Usually I don't get involved but when she called me asking why my grandmother was trying to get her to do things for her, I warned her. Said you'll be in a life of servitude if you start. She's been keeping her distance which pisses my grandmother off. Yesterday my grandmother left her a message saying "I'm alive and in Hell" under the guise of her calling the wrong number (she does know another person by the same name). Unlikely she called the wrong number. The other person with same name is her neighbor who she's been badgering for years and knows her Number well.) Intent- get that new woman over there to check on her of course, suck her in, get the next victim in line. She called me and I said she's fine, just looking for attention and sympathy. I've told her if you want to visit or start doing things that's your choice but be warned. She's been through so much I felt I owed it to her to save her from the misery.
Nana has plenty of people going over every day of the week. It's not like she's abandoned.
As it was the nephews wife who helps had a rough past couple years. Her husband had cancer, is doing well now, recovered, but I had warned this woman from the start, don't tell my grandmother. She would have made it all about herself, whine to everyone that her nephew has cancer to get attention and sympathy, what will she do, who will help her, his wife will be busy and unavailable, what will happen to HER? I said if you tell her about your husband's cancer, not only will you have to cope with his illness, you will have to calm down this woman and comfort her over your own husband's illness! How backwards is that? That's how it works in this pd world. She realizes now good thing she didn't tell her. It would have made the situation ten thousand times worse.
They will burn through caregivers. She had one nephews wife move across the continent. She was elderly herself and my grandmother treated her like a dog. This new nephews wife is hanging in there but she has to pray on the way over there for strength as do I! Keep in mind there will likely be flying monkeys along the way. On my case it's her neighbor and her husband. They have done a lot for her but are usually the ones who make excuses for her. "Oh it's just regular aging ." No it's not. They would never treat their family that way. One of them had a pd father so was used to the emotional abuse and thinks it's normal. It's not.
Oh yes. Dad likes to rope in his minions. He once asked his cousin to push him around in his wheelchair for the day. Up hills etc. Cousin is 3 years younger than him and it made him ill. All because he "didn't want to take his mobility scooter".
Im sure Dad would have sat there thinking "this is great someone is pushing me arouind".
And yes Dad ignores everyone else. I've "reminded" him 100 times (given up now), no my wife cannot do his laundry because of her health problems (she has fibromyalgia, so some days walks with a stick), no I won't give my Aspergers teen a "clip around the ear" because I've got to sort something for him rather than visit you, and no 6 year olds don't understand when you tell them "no we can't go swimming now even though I promised".
At best he will give in and say "OK you can sort those things first". (What I need your permissions?) Which means its a day or two before its back to "what about me?"
It's ALL ABOUT THEM! All the time, every day, for as long as they live. It kind of amazes me how similar they all are. Do they all go by the same instruction manual? It's actually eerie.
And a life lesson in self respect for us. Sorry but no one on this planet deserves the treatment they dish out.
Mine wouldnt dream of having a mobility scooter, even though he conned me into visiting a shop trying one out etc . It was his way of getting me to visit and have some supply. This was done when my sister was on holiday of course so his supply could be regulated.
Mobility scooters you see are for old decrepit people not him, even though hes registered disabled. A wheelchair is even worse, thats for really old ill decrepit people. He insists on pushing his like a zimmer even though he can barely walk. Ohh well not my problem anymore.
BTW Adrianna, ive said this before and ill say it again . Narcissists or PD people can be self aware of their condition, but they are still narcissists or PD. They have no control over their condition. They can adapt and play normal for a while , but that isnt them, that isnt their true PD selves so eventually they will resort back, as their behavior always brought "results". Its always there . Some are extremely intelligent like my father and so their "deployment" of their condition is/was extremely cunning and manipulative. Hes extremely well read on many subjects except one (which i have always encouraged , human psychology). I wonder why? When i tried to put a block on his incessant phone calls he actually said "I SUPPOSE ILL HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SUPPLY" He actually used the word supply. Has he read up about narcissism?
I agree they can be self aware, especially the higher level narcissists who are closer to antisocial personality disorder. They know what they are doing and have no remorse doing it.
I do think a lot of them though lack the ability to Self reflect because their disorder prevents it. It's why they have a false self, the mask, which is the person they want to believe themselves to be. They deny introspection. It's too horrifying to see they either lack a sense of self (my therapists theory) or to see who they truly are which isn't good (my theory.) My grandmother has had fleeting moments of self reflection but they don't last.
The higher level narcs though I believe are aware, do it on purpose, can be sadistic, and know how to turn it on and turn it off.
I knew one though who wasn't high level and truly seemed to have no idea why he behaved the way he did, had no knowledge of narcissism, and was absolutely offended when it was suggested he look within himself. He was emotionally abusive but it was second nature to him. He had a strong false self which he fiercely defended.
My grandmothers behavior is dependent upon her audience. She is at a point now where sad to say she lies with ease. She sees the confusion, stress and mental torment she puts people through. However her needs come first, always. She will do whatever necessary to get her narcissistic supply.
Have you read "Confessions of a Sociopath: A Life Spent Hiding in Plain Sight", written by a law professor and Sunday school teacher. Fiercely intelligent, she is fully aware of her condition, her lack of empathy, the way she can "read" people and "use" them for her own ends. Why would she change, she cant change, it is her.
Quote from: Hazy111 on September 24, 2019, 07:33:41 AM
Mine wouldnt dream of having a mobility scooter, even though he conned me into visiting a shop trying one out etc . It was his way of getting me to visit and have some supply. This was done when my sister was on holiday of course so his supply could be regulated.
Mobility scooters you see are for old decrepit people not him, even though hes registered disabled. A wheelchair is even worse, thats for really old ill decrepit people. He insists on pushing his like a zimmer even though he can barely walk. Ohh well not my problem anymore.
BTW Adrianna, ive said this before and ill say it again . Narcissists or PD people can be self aware of their condition, but they are still narcissists or PD. They have no control over their condition. They can adapt and play normal for a while , but that isnt them, that isnt their true PD selves so eventually they will resort back, as their behavior always brought "results". Its always there . Some are extremely intelligent like my father and so their "deployment" of their condition is/was extremely cunning and manipulative. Hes extremely well read on many subjects except one (which i have always encouraged , human psychology). I wonder why? When i tried to put a block on his incessant phone calls he actually said "I SUPPOSE ILL HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SUPPLY" He actually used the word supply. Has he read up about narcissism?
Oh the mobility scooter was a massive fight! In the end, he gave in. BUT hes clever. He lives in apartment on 1st floor - so scooter is stored outside. nowhere to charge battery - so someone has to carry the battery upstairs, plug it in, then replace it. I offered to get someone to fit an outside plug so it could be charged in situ - NO NO NO. Clever eh? Someones got to visit now to sort the battery (not me!) or hes "stuck in the house battery flat".
The wheelchair he loves. The warm fuzzy feeling he gets from him having the power to make someone else expend physical effort to push him around is something he loves! Hes made someone do it for him....
Quote from: Adrianna on September 24, 2019, 08:06:52 AM
I agree they can be self aware, especially the higher level narcissists who are closer to antisocial personality disorder. They know what they are doing and have no remorse doing it.
I do think a lot of them though lack the ability to Self reflect because their disorder prevents it. It's why they have a false self, the mask, which is the person they want to believe themselves to be. They deny introspection. It's too horrifying to see they either lack a sense of self (my therapists theory) or to see who they truly are which isn't good (my theory.) My grandmother has had fleeting moments of self reflection but they don't last.
The higher level narcs though I believe are aware, do it on purpose, can be sadistic, and know how to turn it on and turn it off.
I knew one though who wasn't high level and truly seemed to have no idea why he behaved the way he did, had no knowledge of narcissism, and was absolutely offended when it was suggested he look within himself. He was emotionally abusive but it was second nature to him. He had a strong false self which he fiercely defended.
My grandmothers behavior is dependent upon her audience. She is at a point now where sad to say she lies with ease. She sees the confusion, stress and mental torment she puts people through. However her needs come first, always. She will do whatever necessary to get her narcissistic supply.
I often look at my Dad and try and work out what hes doing. He'd have no idea what the word narcissist meant anyway.
I often imagine he sees a empty room with two things in. One is a 7 foot tall pile of papers that need to be sorted through which relate to him and his problems, next to this are two lonely pages which relate to me and my problems. Then he imagines me sitting in the corner, picking up the two pages, with a beer in my hand while hes trying to stop his pile collapsing over and I'm not helping at all.
Hazy111, as soon as I read your post, I put a hold on the Confessions book on my library website. I'm looking forward to reading it. Thanks!
Quote from: p123 on September 24, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
I often look at my Dad and try and work out what hes doing. He'd have no idea what the word narcissist meant anyway.
I often imagine he sees a empty room with two things in. One is a 7 foot tall pile of papers that need to be sorted through which relate to him and his problems, next to this are two lonely pages which relate to me and my problems. Then he imagines me sitting in the corner, picking up the two pages, with a beer in my hand while hes trying to stop his pile collapsing over and I'm not helping at all.
That's a good way to describe it p123! I'll bet my mother sees things just this way too. Her problems are so much worse because she's ...
ELDERLY :dramaqueen:
My NPDmom has told me that various people we know are schizophrenic, narcissist and sociopath, all because they won't speak to her anymore. Narcissist applies to everyone but her.
Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 24, 2019, 09:25:45 AM
Quote from: p123 on September 24, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
I often look at my Dad and try and work out what hes doing. He'd have no idea what the word narcissist meant anyway.
I often imagine he sees a empty room with two things in. One is a 7 foot tall pile of papers that need to be sorted through which relate to him and his problems, next to this are two lonely pages which relate to me and my problems. Then he imagines me sitting in the corner, picking up the two pages, with a beer in my hand while hes trying to stop his pile collapsing over and I'm not helping at all.
That's a good way to describe it p123! I'll bet my mother sees things just this way too. Her problems are so much worse because she's ... ELDERLY :dramaqueen:
My NPDmom has told me that various people we know are schizophrenic, narcissist and sociopath, all because they won't speak to her anymore. Narcissist applies to everyone but her.
Aarrghhhhh - "Im old now so just a bit of help and you don't mind do you?" about 200 times I've heard it.
Of course, translates to "I can't be bothered to help myself, you need to do it, remember I brought you up and its your job now".
Other things I translate:-
"You know me I have to say whats on my mind" - translates to "I'll be rude as hell because I want to be"
"I get flustered these days. I am in my 80s" - translates to "I really can't be bothered to even think about it for 30 seconds. Why can't you just drive 25 miles to do it for me?"
"We were poor when I was younger so I don't like wasting money" - translates to "Im so cheap that I've got no intention of spending any money because I like having so much money in my account I could never spent it".
Quote from: p123 on September 24, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: Adrianna on September 24, 2019, 08:06:52 AM
I agree they can be self aware, especially the higher level narcissists who are closer to antisocial personality disorder. They know what they are doing and have no remorse doing it.
I do think a lot of them though lack the ability to Self reflect because their disorder prevents it. It's why they have a false self, the mask, which is the person they want to believe themselves to be. They deny introspection. It's too horrifying to see they either lack a sense of self (my therapists theory) or to see who they truly are which isn't good (my theory.) My grandmother has had fleeting moments of self reflection but they don't last.
The higher level narcs though I believe are aware, do it on purpose, can be sadistic, and know how to turn it on and turn it off.
I knew one though who wasn't high level and truly seemed to have no idea why he behaved the way he did, had no knowledge of narcissism, and was absolutely offended when it was suggested he look within himself. He was emotionally abusive but it was second nature to him. He had a strong false self which he fiercely defended.
My grandmothers behavior is dependent upon her audience. She is at a point now where sad to say she lies with ease. She sees the confusion, stress and mental torment she puts people through. However her needs come first, always. She will do whatever necessary to get her narcissistic supply.
I often look at my Dad and try and work out what hes doing. He'd have no idea what the word narcissist meant anyway.
I often imagine he sees a empty room with two things in. One is a 7 foot tall pile of papers that need to be sorted through which relate to him and his problems, next to this are two lonely pages which relate to me and my problems. Then he imagines me sitting in the corner, picking up the two pages, with a beer in my hand while hes trying to stop his pile collapsing over and I'm not helping at all.
Great description and accurate! Except it applies to all humans on the planet not just you. No one has it as bad as them, ever, anywhere, on earth, in their mind. And if they are reminded otherwise it falls on deaf ears because they have no interest in other people's problems, only their own.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 24, 2019, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: p123 on September 24, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
Quote from: Adrianna on September 24, 2019, 08:06:52 AM
I agree they can be self aware, especially the higher level narcissists who are closer to antisocial personality disorder. They know what they are doing and have no remorse doing it.
I do think a lot of them though lack the ability to Self reflect because their disorder prevents it. It's why they have a false self, the mask, which is the person they want to believe themselves to be. They deny introspection. It's too horrifying to see they either lack a sense of self (my therapists theory) or to see who they truly are which isn't good (my theory.) My grandmother has had fleeting moments of self reflection but they don't last.
The higher level narcs though I believe are aware, do it on purpose, can be sadistic, and know how to turn it on and turn it off.
I knew one though who wasn't high level and truly seemed to have no idea why he behaved the way he did, had no knowledge of narcissism, and was absolutely offended when it was suggested he look within himself. He was emotionally abusive but it was second nature to him. He had a strong false self which he fiercely defended.
My grandmothers behavior is dependent upon her audience. She is at a point now where sad to say she lies with ease. She sees the confusion, stress and mental torment she puts people through. However her needs come first, always. She will do whatever necessary to get her narcissistic supply.
I often look at my Dad and try and work out what hes doing. He'd have no idea what the word narcissist meant anyway.
I often imagine he sees a empty room with two things in. One is a 7 foot tall pile of papers that need to be sorted through which relate to him and his problems, next to this are two lonely pages which relate to me and my problems. Then he imagines me sitting in the corner, picking up the two pages, with a beer in my hand while hes trying to stop his pile collapsing over and I'm not helping at all.
Great description and accurate! Except it applies to all humans on the planet not just you. No one has it as bad as them, ever, anywhere, on earth, in their mind. And if they are reminded otherwise it falls on deaf ears because they have no interest in other people's problems, only their own.
Honestly a more miserable person you could not meet.....
I dread he ever gets ill. At the moment there is pretty much nothing wrong with him apart from wear and tear from being 85.
If hes ever slightly ill, he'll be a nightmare. If he gets a cold he calls the doctor out. If I Im ill he will phone me constantly telling me to go to hospital (even if its a cold!). Another personality disorder to add - is it munchausens?
Not sure but I know nana has pretty bad anxiety. Has had it for years. I have it too but hers is sometimes debilitating, probably because she's not working or busy and has time on her hands to think too much. She worries about everything. Right now it's the washing machine which she wants to replace.
I don't tell her anymore about any illnesses of anyone because she turns it around on herself. Couple years ago, after a suspicious biopsy, I was waiting for breast surgery to find out if I had cancer, which I did not thank God. It was a stressful time. My mother had just died less than two months prior. I wasn't going to tell her about the surgery but I needed the weekend off and said listen, I'm stressed out here, been through a lot, this is why I need this weekend off, cut me some slack. What did she do? Call the house and ask my husband "what about meeeeeee? Who's going to do things for me now?" That was the last time I told her anything about my medical issues. I have to see an oncologist twice a year for checkups on the breast because I'm considered high risk, I'm on tamoxifen, and I tell her absolutely nothing. I had a bat in my house last month and had to get rabies shots, and I told her nothing, They turn it all back to themselves, always. Do not tell your father anythung. This is going to sound awful and I'm sorry for saying it but I think that if they want us to call a doctor it's to make sure we're ok so we can CONTINUE TO DO THINGS FOR THEM. They fear the loss of a servant. Nana freaks out when someone is gong away or unavailable. To the point where she will likely fall into narcissistic collapse, doesn't want to get dressed, or eat, or bathe, giant pity party, and will likely end up in ER. This is why we can't tell her if we are going anywhere. She'll end up doing this then you can't go at all. I know someone whose father was similar and they could never tell him they were going away. He's figure out a way to make sure they cancelled their trip. For him. So his needs were met.
When my mother first got into hospital (she was there three weeks before she died) I told my grandmother I needed the weekend off and I'm sure the nephews wife would get her groceries. The next Monday I get a call from senior services saying " your grandmother called to say you had abandoned her and were never going to help her again. Do we need to set up more services for her?" Nice, huh?
Quote from: Adrianna on September 25, 2019, 05:20:28 AM
Not sure but I know nana has pretty bad anxiety. Has had it for years. I have it too but hers is sometimes debilitating, probably because she's not working or busy and has time on her hands to think too much. She worries about everything. Right now it's the washing machine which she wants to replace.
I don't tell her anymore about any illnesses of anyone because she turns it around on herself. Couple years ago, after a suspicious biopsy, I was waiting for breast surgery to find out if I had cancer, which I did not thank God. It was a stressful time. My mother had just died less than two months prior. I wasn't going to tell her about the surgery but I needed the weekend off and said listen, I'm stressed out here, been through a lot, this is why I need this weekend off, cut me some slack. What did she do? Call the house and ask my husband "what about meeeeeee? Who's going to do things for me now?" That was the last time I told her anything about my medical issues. I have to see an oncologist twice a year for checkups on the breast because I'm considered high risk, I'm on tamoxifen, and I tell her absolutely nothing. I had a bat in my house last month and had to get rabies shots, and I told her nothing, They turn it all back to themselves, always. Do not tell your father anythung. This is going to sound awful and I'm sorry for saying it but I think that if they want us to call a doctor it's to make sure we're ok so we can CONTINUE TO DO THINGS FOR THEM. They fear the loss of a servant. Nana freaks out when someone is gong away or unavailable. To the point where she will likely fall into narcissistic collapse, doesn't want to get dressed, or eat, or bathe, giant pity party, and will likely end up in ER. This is why we can't tell her if we are going anywhere. She'll end up doing this then you can't go at all. I know someone whose father was similar and they could never tell him they were going away. He's figure out a way to make sure they cancelled their trip. For him. So his needs were met.
When my mother first got into hospital (she was there three weeks before she died) I told my grandmother I needed the weekend off and I'm sure the nephews wife would get her groceries. The next Monday I get a call from senior services saying " your grandmother called to say you had abandoned her and were never going to help her again. Do we need to set up more services for her?" Nice, huh?
Yep Dad is ALWAYS ill a few days before we go away...
Wife and I have talked about. If he pulls a serious one a few days before we go, we're not going to cancel unless it is 100% verified as genuine by a doctor. I'd tell him I can't cancel unless a doctor signs a note. Even if it is semi-serious, wife would still go with the kids and I'd follow on a day or two later.
I KNOW though Dad would say "I'll pay any money you lost" then offer me £200. Yeh right more like £2000 which he'd never believe.
He HATES me being on call/standby with work because it gives me an out. I keep telling him if I get called out, I aint doing your groceries but I will order it online for delivery. I am often tempted when lays the guilt on to pretend I've been called just to keep him in check - but thats probably not a nice thing to do by me.
True what you say about your own illness though. I've often thought "yeh all you care about is that you're servant is fit to work". I dont tell him either because he comes up with stupid ideas, keeps phoning me for an "update" and generally acts stupidly.
Got my wednesday night scheduled call later. Wish me luck. If hes going to go on about how my wife "should phone him on his birthday" then I'm going to flip. Also, after last weekend, where he wanted me to visit and I told him I was busy, hes not going let me off the hook this weekend. Can guarantee I'll get "no food", "desperate", "you have to visit", "make an effort" this call.
I am on call this weekend and I have my daugher all weekend (wife is working). I am VERY tempted to call him sunday and say, sorry, cant come called out. Is that bad of me? I just want to make it clear that I won't be FORCED into things.
Can guarantee if I say OK I'll get groceries delivered he'll say no I'm ok, so its all a scam just to get me there. Maybe I should do it.
You know my heart is breaking for you because no one who has never been through this can relate. There really is no peace in our heart and souls dealing with them. The stress they put us through is unreal, because you want to do the right thing, you want to help, but all efforts go unappreciated and you don't matter to him. At all. Plus your efforts are wasted because they are never happy.
I can't tell you what to do but I will tell you I reduced the calls and she figures things out eventually. I just delete the messages. I'm at a point now if I get a call from the agency (your grandmother said she's in misery and needs a doctor!) I'm not going to call back during work hours. That's what she wants. Me inconvenienced. She enjoys it. I think your father does too if you can let that sink in. They like to see us run in circles for them. You can see why no contact is the preferred choice for our healing and well-being.
It's an awful feeling when you dread picking up the phone to call someone. Or going to see them. Or even seeing their name on your caller id. These people are best avoided. I know it's no fun in their head. I have compassion. However the misery the inflict upon well meaning good hearted people truly is beyond belief.
Honestly I wouldn't even want to go at all anymore. Your daughter is witness to his dysfunction. She senses she's not loved by him. Kids know. It isn't healthy for her to even be around him.
I think you need to re-evaluate things. He can order groceries, he won't starve. Try to keep your children away from him. He has shown you he has no love for them. Or you sadly. His disorder prevents it.
Quote from: Adrianna on September 25, 2019, 08:43:17 AM
You know my heart is breaking for you because no one who has never been through this can relate. There really is no peace in our heart and souls dealing with them. The stress they put us through is unreal, because you want to do the right thing, you want to help, but all efforts go unappreciated and you don't matter to him. At all. Plus your efforts are wasted because they are never happy.
I can't tell you what to do but I will tell you I reduced the calls and she figures things out eventually. I just delete the messages. I'm at a point now if I get a call from the agency (your grandmother said she's in misery and needs a doctor!) I'm not going to call back during work hours. That's what she wants. Me inconvenienced. She enjoys it. I think your father does too if you can let that sink in. They like to see us run in circles for them. You can see why no contact is the preferred choice for our healing and well-being.
It's an awful feeling when you dread picking up the phone to call someone. Or going to see them. Or even seeing their name on your caller id. These people are best avoided. I know it's no fun in their head. I have compassion. However the misery the inflict upon well meaning good hearted people truly is beyond belief.
Honestly I wouldn't even want to go at all anymore. Your daughter is witness to his dysfunction. She senses she's not loved by him. Kids know. It isn't healthy for her to even be around him.
I think you need to re-evaluate things. He can order groceries, he won't starve. Try to keep your children away from him. He has shown you he has no love for them. Or you sadly. His disorder prevents it.
You know what Im glad I found this forum. Hearing others experiences which are spot on to what I get confirm that its not me being mean to him..... It cheers me up.
It also lovely to hear people facing the same. As you say, only you know. The amount of criticism I've had off family because of this....
But yes he does do this because, in some weird way, he likes it or it meets his needs. I'd say 95% of the time he doesn't need or want anything other than to involve me in doing something for him.
Last few months I haven't been rude, mean, or nasty to him at all but I have been a little firmer. The way hes fought back is, quite frankly, disgraceful to be honest. Some of the things he's tried on.
Every phone call and visit is something hes not happy about now. Honestly, its like a broken record. "I thought you would have visited today", "You have to visit".
I'll phone him on the way home from work tonight, he'll annoy me, he'll pretty much tell me I have to visit the weekend (because I didn't last weekend), I'll get really wound up, but I'll just think, three days peace before I have to deal with him at the weekend. When that comes, I'll psych myself up, prepare for another verbal lashing, try not to get too wound up, knowing one likely subject is going to be my wife again. Then 3-4 days peace until I have to speak to him again.
It is no relationship at the moment. It upsets me that, if he passed away tomorrow, my abiding memory is going to be how awful hes been to me the last few years.
My kids he doesn't care about. Their Gran visits and my youngest cries when she goes home. Tell her we've got to pop up Grampys and she moans she doesn't want to go. Hes not bothered at all.
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