Ups, downs, reinforcement and resonance

IcedCoffee · February 04, 2021, 06:24:02 PM

This is going to sound geeky.

Everyone is agreed on Medium Chilling during the bad periods. And for me it works very well.

But what to do during the neutral or up periods? I've seen some discussion of this here. But what I've read seems to focus on how Nons feel, rather than how they should react.

I can't help thinking that there must be an optimal behavior for the Nons during the neutral or up periods.

The geeky bit comes from the ideas of resonance (pushing a swing at its resonant frequency) and reinforcement (as in "training" children).

I see that Medium Chilling during ups is a good self-defense mechanism for the Non (you know the up will end soon so don't get too happy). But can't the ups be used more positively? It just seems like an opportunity that shouldn't be wasted.

I am going to stop there. I am new here and am unsure how suggestions like this will go down.

SparkStillLit · February 04, 2021, 08:52:05 PM

You can sure try positive reinforcement. Just don't be too wrapped up in the outcome. In just my own personal case, it seems to have no effect. Weirdly. I mean, it does for as long as updh wants it to, but as soon as he feels like taking a snit, BY GOLLY he takes a SNIT! It has gotten way worse over time and covid.

IcedCoffee · February 04, 2021, 09:08:20 PM

What positive reinforcement have you tried? I'm keen to try with anything sensible. As long as I don't get too optimistic I can't see much harm in trying.

Free2Bme · February 04, 2021, 09:17:57 PM

Icedcoffee,

I hear what you're saying. For me MC was survival, whether it was an up/down season. I found it harder to practice during the up , I would tend to swing back into the unhealthy cycle.

However, when pdH was in in the idealizing phase, I would make requests for things I needed his help on ie., the honey-do list, planning things, etc. It sounds opportunistic I know, but this was the only time to be heard and have a shot at his cooperation.

The only other benefit would be to take advantage of the reprieve and gear up for the next round of devalue, discard.....

SparkStillLit · February 04, 2021, 09:23:40 PM

Interaction with me is the positive reinforcement. That's what my T says. I also tried doing things that I knew he liked.
I still do it. It can't hurt. It harms no one. As long as I'm doing nothing out of FOG. Or trying to force change in him.
Also I do what Free does. Take advantage of actually being HEARD and try to get the most important things done. It's so rare now.

IcedCoffee · February 04, 2021, 10:59:20 PM

I am quite good at watching negative interactions from "above," preparing myself to be upset but knowing it will end soon(ish). (I've found that she has a pattern, after ranting at me for 30 minutes she moves on to ranting about other people. At which point I can relax! So I just have to not get triggered myself for half a hour.)

I came across MCing as part of a course on how to save a marriage. It wasn't called MCing but it was effectively the same. And I've been impressed with the results.

I'm pretty good at empathizing with most people in most situations. But I can't "feel" what it's like to have one of these PDs. I can't hold it in my head. I have this crazy idea that if only I could experience her pain I could help. I know what response that comment will/should get!

notrightinthehead · February 05, 2021, 03:45:40 AM

Sounds like you allow yourself to be ranted at for 30+ minutes. Have you tried removing yourself from the rants?

IcedCoffee · February 05, 2021, 01:06:10 PM

Yes, I do now, whenever possible. (The 30 minute rants were common before I was MCing.) And I do find that I can go back after 10 minutes and it's as if she'd never been angry! No acknowledgement at all. (In a normal relationship there would be a bit of "I'm sorry, dear, I'm feeling a bit stressed." "No, it's ok, I understand." "Hug?")

BeautifulCrazy · February 05, 2021, 02:03:57 PM

For me MC was still the best course of action during an 'up' period.
If I let my MC slip, I would enter into a space with my uPDh where I would share and interact in a normal friendly way.
This never ended well.
Anything I shared... an interaction, activity, opinion, memory, wish, conversation... it all became weaponized the moment the 'up' period was over. A project we worked on together would become something I had forced him to do or 'exploited' or 'used' him somehow. A nice walk we went on would become a 'favor' he had done for me. An opinion would later be an example of how f-d up I was. A wish or dream I expressed would be something he could demean later as stupid or trivial or shameful or crazy.
If I broke MC, I also found myself investing in the relationship in a normal and friendly way, and then having normal, friendly expectations. This only set me up for hurt feelings when everything inevitably turned.
Often a period of nice would end when he would decide he had 'seen through' my 'rediculous act' (just normal behavior). I would be accused of exploiting, abusing, preying on him, cheating on him, lying, manipulating and taking advantage.
It was just too exhausting.
In more recent times I used the 'good' periods as a window of opportunity to get more things done outside of my marriage. It was a lower stress, higher energy time to be productive. I worked on planning and implementing my exit strategies. Doing therapy. Practicing self-care. Exploring my own interests. Developing my network. Learning new skills.
The times he was 'up' and not constantly hanging over me were the best of those worst times.

Poison Ivy · February 05, 2021, 02:10:07 PM

IcedCoffee · February 05, 2021, 04:26:26 PM

Interesting.

I'm currently experimenting. (Not much to lose.) I'm not giving any ammunition during up periods, and I'm not investing myself emotionally. But I am trying to be encouraging and positive, laugh and smile. But...after ten or 15 minutes I walk away, while she is still up. Don't wait until the tide turns. Leave 'em wanting more. I did this yesterday, went out for a walk for an hour, came back and she was still up. I'm no statistician but I know a sample of 1 doesn't amount to much! But I shall continue the experiment.

Poison Ivy · February 05, 2021, 04:48:05 PM

My suggestion is that you be positive and up if doing so makes you feel better, not in an attempt to control the behavior of the PD person.

IcedCoffee · February 05, 2021, 04:59:23 PM

I know!

QuoteGod, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I can manage the first two-thirds of this!

Poison Ivy · February 05, 2021, 05:29:23 PM

I apologize if my previous post sounded harsh. I don't think it's bad for you (or me or whoever) to project positivity when you actually have positive feelings. But there's a danger, especially when you're dealing with people with PDs or depression or anxiety but even in "normal" circumstances, that other people might start to expect you to set the emotional temperature in the room or family or workplace. I think this is unfair and can have negative effects on your health.

When my children were growing up, I often felt responsible for keeping up family members' spirits. I came to resent this obligation. And maybe I put it on myself; certainly, I wanted to protect my children from their father's low moods and emotional immaturity. But my children and my husband became accustomed to me being cheery, and I decided that I needed to hide my feelings. That probably caused as many problems as it averted.

Fae Greenwood · February 05, 2021, 06:10:47 PM

If being positive and giving positive reinforcement works, then you should go for it. I tried that and it didn't work, if anything it made things worse. I've since discovered the narcissists believe that if you love them, they own you. You are their slave to be used as they wish. That explained why positive reinforcement didn't work as uNPDh likely viewed it as proof that his "method" of constant disagreement and hyper-criticism was working. I finally deliberately stopped smiling at him five years ago as even that seemed to lead to a verbal attack. So for me it is now MC 24/7. Is he nice? MC is the answer. Is he rude? "That was rude I don't like that" followed by MC is the answer.

By the way, positive reinforcement was everything from making his favorite dinner to giving him something special in private. That led to complaints about why didn't I make him his favorite dinner every day and the expectation that the special private thing would be routine. If I expressed appreciation at something he did for or said to me, it was never done or said again except as a personal favor to me that must be repaid. No exaggeration. And so I circle back to MC 24/7.

SparkStillLit · February 05, 2021, 07:13:24 PM

I have had some similar experiences to Fae's, so the reinforcements have gotten a lot more subtle. Starting way smaller.

BeautifulCrazy · February 05, 2021, 10:19:38 PM

Still on my mind.
A few thoughts.

Quote from: IcedCoffee on February 04, 2021, 06:24:02 PM

But what to do during the neutral or up periods? I've seen some discussion of this here. But what I've read seems to focus on how Nons feel, rather than how they should react.

I can't help thinking that there must be an optimal behavior for the Nons during the neutral or up periods.

The geeky bit comes from the ideas of resonance (pushing a swing at its resonant frequency) and reinforcement (as in "training" children)

The Toolbox here on the site has a lot of ideas in the What To Do section about how you might react, or conversely, in the What Not To Do section about how you should not. Personally, I find I return to the Toolbox often to refresh my memory or refer to things I found before. Some of the things in there, I wish I had discovered decades earlier!

I spent most of my marriage experimenting, trying to turn the "up" moods, and "better behaviour" parts of H's cycles into constant states. Seeking the "optimal" responses. Trying to reinforce desired behaviours. Looking for opportunities.
Doing x instead of y.
Trying A instead of B.
The person who was actually being conditioned was me, through his intermittent reinforcement.

When I began treating the "up" phases and periods of silent treatment as opportunities to manage MY feelings, responses, happiness and mental state instead of his. That's when the really positive things began to happen. I did a lot of changing and growing and started getting my needs met.

Like you and Poison Ivy were discussing, maybe another part of your mindful responding would be to accept that your partner just is who she is. As is her mood at any given moment. And none of that is your responsibility, despite what the FOG's distortions might make it seem!

I'm thinking using reinforcement, similarly to how you would for a child, could be a strategy worth trying? I don't know!
I'm not being funny at all here when I say that parenting books were actually helpful in some instances when I accepted that my husband was able to respond only at that level. His emotional maturity was approximately equal to a 9 - 12 year old. Unfortunately, I also had to accept that I was never going to have a loving and reciprocal relationship with someone who was an equal partner if I chose to stay. I kid you not, I did find some strategies geared to parenting and communicating with preteens/ teens brought some success when trying to get him to participate in family life or hold up his end of the relationship in very basic ways. He seemed to read these efforts as gentler or more respectful, or possibly as coddling or butt- kissing that he thought he deserved? Who knows?!
I think the book was How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk by Faber and Mazlish. It could have been another title by the same author or authors. I also had some successes while implementing strategies from Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child.
To be clear, I purchased and read the books because I have children, but when I started applying things I learned my uPDh was constantly saying things like "You don't ask me to do the dishes like that!", "You don't call me for dinner that way!!", "How come you talk like that to them?" Seriously, one can't even make this stuff up. I might have to post this in the bat$#!* thread.

Fae G and Spark, Yes! Absolutely!! My experience too... efforts at positive reinforcement were just new manipulations for him to use, or ways to be cruel

IcedCoffee, your experiences may be similar. Or not. I can't advocate any course of action since, ultimately, nothing worked for me. Be assured though, whatever you do, we are here to support you and offer whatever we can. I'm super interested in the results of your experimentation and self development and where it might lead!

~BC

Free2Bme · February 05, 2021, 11:10:12 PM

I too experienced what BeautifulCrazy described...

"Anything I shared... an interaction, activity, opinion, memory, wish, conversation... it all became weaponized the moment the 'up' period was over. A project we worked on together would become something I had forced him to do or 'exploited' or 'used' him somehow. A nice walk we went on would become a 'favor' he had done for me. An opinion would later be an example of how f-d up I was. A wish or dream I expressed would be something he could demean later as stupid or trivial or shameful or crazy.
If I broke MC, I also found myself relating in a normal and friendly way, and then having expectations. This only set me up for hurt feelings when everything inevitably went south.
Often a period of nice would end when he would decide he had 'seen through' my 'rediculous act' (just normal behavior). I would be accused of exploiting, abusing, preying on him, cheating on him, lying, manipulating and taking advantage."

It was very hard to not break MC when I felt starved for something real that resembled a normal conversation/relationship, it always had a big emotional price tag.

Two ways my updxh would get his need for power/control met; manufacture chaos by making up something to rage about and have me/kids upset and fearful of him, then pretend to 'fix' the situation (by telling us what we did wrong to deserve his wrath). Alternatively, he would create an atmosphere that everything was safe/normal until I let down my guard, then he would become angry and withdraw it all from me just to punish for some unknown reason....and then came the accusations like BeautifulCrazy named.

There is no way to get basic relational needs met, IMO.
MC is only good if you don't let down our guard, not invested in a particular outcome, and just take the 'up' moment as a small reprieve knowing that it will all cycle again.

IcedCoffee · February 06, 2021, 03:22:53 PM

Wow, this is really helpful!

A few thoughts...

1. Context: I am trying to stop her wanting a divorce at the moment. Not exactly "train" her.

2. I can see that I might be being conditioned myself, but since I'm managing to stay emotionally neutral I don't think that's the case. It was definitely the case during the "walking on eggshells" phase though. So I am aware of the experience.

3. I think a really key thing during my experiment is walking away mid up! I'm hoping that will stop her thinking I'm putting on an act. It's the opposite of gray rock (which, as I understand it, is if you don't want interaction any more). I'm going to call this LEWMing! Leave 'em wanting more! It's does sound a bit creepy though!

4. I do see on this forum that people seem to group many PDs together. Now I can only think of three PDs I've known, ever. Two BPDs and one NPD. And although I see a lot similarities, I also see big differences. The "grandiose sense of self-importance" in NPDs v the emptiness of a BPD makes a very big difference to how to behave with them I would guess.

5. I hadn't really thought about it but something like "making his favorite dinner" wouldn't be presented as being deliberate. If the subject arises it would be accompanied by "It's your favorite dinner? I didn't know that. Anyway [change subject]." I'm just thinking out loud here.