Tips for talking about IL behaviour?

[Phoenix Rising]

What are your strategies for talking to your DH/DW/partner about IL behaviour?

In my situation, it is easy to talk to DH about BIL's wife (suspected PD) - he doesn't like her for same reasons as me and can easily see her behaviour as PD. However, he has a blind spot for his mother.

Everything she does is innocent although her actions are quite obviously manipulative and controlling. For example, I can see that MIL uses FIL to triangulate or sets other people up to take blame for her actions but DH doesn't see that.

I recently posted some threads about this and I realized that MIL used FIL and DH to communicate what SHE wanted or has done which just got everyone upset with each other instead of MIL.

Today, DH is going to visit MIL and told me he wants to talk to them about the birthday fiasco. I told him I support whatever he chooses but that I wouldn't bother if it were me. The reason I said this is that they were already told about how it made me feel the same day MIL cancelled the whole thing and didn't apologize or offer to honour the plans.

Would appreciate any tips you have. I don't want to interfere with their relationship but it's so tiring to hear how innocent MIL is or that she is just "clueless"

[Phoenix Rising]

I just got in from the gym and DH brought home a gift from MIL. I'm not sure how to feel... I'm not going to say anything to DH about this but I know it's safe to do so here

On one hand it is a nice gesture but on the other hand, I never got any kind of apology or acknowledgment of my feelings. MIL looks generous again and I look like something else if I "complain"

[NumbLotus]

My H was on to his mother long before I was, so no similar experience here.

But what I see is that your DH may feel an emotional need to protect his mother... for himself.

I think it can be extremely painful, after a lifetime of rewriting things in your head, to grapple with the idea that it was all a lie.

And under that are really terrible things. Like, does my mother even love me?

[Phoenix Rising]

You bring up a really good point. I know it has been difficult for me to accept that some people I loved were actually abusing me. It took a long time. I can see it being difficult for him too.

I do feel at the same time that when he defends her behaviour, it downplays my feelings. And I'm unsure what the heck to do about that..  Like for example, what she has done recently.. His response was that she was trying. I hadn't used any language that attacked her yet he got defensive.

The last thing I want to do is make him choose, I would like for us all to have the healthiest relationship possible with MIL. I know too that it's not healthy for me to not be able to discuss my feelings and I know myself well enough that I tend to withdraw myself when I am pushed into a corner.

[candy]

ingenting, gosh, your MIL, the puppet master 

Your MIL has her son, your DH, delivering a gift to you. She did not even bother to come around herself, um?
To me that's not a nice gesture but letting her adult child do the work. If she has difficulties to apologize for calling off your birthday celebration, why not make amends herself and drop off the gift in person?
It's not generous, it's avoidant, IMO.

If it was me who canceled last minute, I would surely like to watch your facial expression when you opened the gift, just to know whether I met your taste.

Anyway, I hope it's something nice at least.

Did you talk to DH in the meantime? Any words from MIL to be delivered with the gift? Did DH talk to MIL and FIL about how they interfered with your bday?

I think, the only thing I'd say to DH would be: I would appreciate MIL doing the relationship work with DIL herself.
In contrast to MIL, you are not using him to clean up the mess 

[Phoenix Rising]

Well apparently MIL was working and told FIL to give DH the gift. I think it could have waited so that they could see me open it.. I mean that's normal.... 

DH and I talked about it again cause he asked me if I was going to open the gift... I tried to explain my observations that I think she is triangulating and using him and FIL to communicate rather than doing it all herself and he agreed. Then we talked about boundaries and DH shared himself many times where MIL violated his own boundaries. Like last Sunday, she asked him 6 times in the span of three minutes for his new phone number.. DH was doing something on his phone and told her to wait after the 1st time she asked but she kept going. FIL jumped in after the 5th time she asked and told her to wait too.  I think it will take him time to realize what MIL really is. 

Candy, it's funny that you mentioned MIL using DH cause I felt she was doing the same thing. I'm glad that someone else besides myself is seeing these things. I am pretty positive that 2 people who have been married for 40+ years have discussed what DH told FIL (MIL is conveniently unavailable) and she knows that what she did was displeasing to us. But yet no acknowledgement or apology whatsoever. MIL have had plenty of opportunity to do anything.. she has time to direct FIL to give DH my gift but no time to say sorry I f***** up?   

She actually had the balls to write me on social media saying happy birthday but she didn't do that until I posted photos of DH and I having a good time with dinner, etc. ILs were in touch with DH earlier that day too to see if we were gonna take their offer for coffee      No birthday wishes then. Anyway I didn't read the message or respond, just deleted it. I did say thank you for the gift earlier cause I was raised to behave better. Don't want to give her anything concrete to try and turn on me later

I haven't opened the gift. It sits on the table. I actually don't give a s*** what it is. I didn't expect it and I don't want it. I don't think they know me very well...  not going to react.

[WinterStar]

ingenting,

I have been dealing with this issue for many years. It's really tough. My husband often downplays his sister and mother's abusive behavior of me and then defends them, i.e. "They didn't mean it that way", "She was having a bad day." It's extremely painful for me, and we usually ended up in an argument over it.

Over time, I have limited my interactions with MIL and SIL. When I see his family, I spend as little direct time with them as possible. I recently changed my cell phone number so they can't text me. I've set up an email filter that will forward things to my husband and then put them in the trash. A recent email from MIL prompted this last action, and when husband asked if I read it, I chose not to address it with him and just said the most positive thing I could about it.

Recently, he told me that the reason I have so much conflict with his sister is because we're both particular. I could tell that this was something he has believed for the past 15 years. So, in his head, her abusive behavior is partly my fault for not being more accommodating. This, after the fact that historically I've been much more accommodating than I felt comfortable with. The whole family system enables SIL's abusive behavior, and I have been an unwilling participant in that in an effort to make things easier for my husband. I won't be compromising myself in that way anymore, though I don't know exactly what that looks like. Husband and I just started therapy, so I expect we'll be talking about in-law issues in that setting, which I hope will be helpful.

So, I've limited interaction so there are fewer things I could potentially be upset about. I'm going to allow myself to respond to future abusive behavior from his family in a way that helps me and isn't primarily concerned with him. I'm not giving my critique of the most recent email (sharing it on this forum instead of with my husband). And I had the realization today that my husband's defensive, angry reactions to my legitimate issues with his family members aren't really about me. So if he yells at me, doesn't believe me or tells me I'm partly to blame, that's hurtful, but it doesn't change the fact that my frustrations are completely understandable and his reaction is on him. I'm going to try to start viewing them as a coping mechanism that is his responsibility to stop using.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello,

A MIL who is so immature is an ongoing issue in a marriage, until the couple finds a way to have boundaries with the MIL. And to respect each others decisions about how much to engage with her.

If he admits that she is clueless, then he knows on some level that he tolerates her cluelessness. To expect you to do the same is usually what puts a lot of tension in a marriage. This is what I have seen from my own life and from being a member here for a while.

Her own children can live one foot in the fog in a way that newer family members usually cannot. At least not long term.

What I came to realize is that sometimes our MIL is someone we will never bond with, never understand, maybe never even enjoy seeing.

When she buys a clueless gift or sends a gift in some clueless manner, use it as a reminder that you are not clueless and you can go buy yourself a little something that you actually like or will enjoy.

If he believes he can change her level of cluelessness, he may want to see a therapist about that as most counselling professionals should know how to support someone who wants to change their PD parent. You already get it, as you told him not to bother trying to address the recent drama she created.

Fyi I have come to believe after years of coping with PDs that they can be counted on to screw up birthdays and weddings most reliably. It's very very heartbreaking. But I think its important to know that for them, birthdays give them openings they don't have at other times. Their gifts are often just tokens that gaslight. 

The o in obligation makes us more open on birthdays and other special days. As someone who had to learn to protect my birthday from my own uNPDm,  I now see it as a feature of their narcissism.

Trees

[bloomie]

Ingenting - you ask for tips for talking about in law behavior and I wanted to suggest something. You wrote:

The last thing I want to do is make him choose, I would like for us all to have the healthiest relationship possible with MIL. I know too that it's not healthy for me to not be able to discuss my feelings and I know myself well enough that I tend to withdraw myself when I am pushed into a corner.

I would suggest that we prioritize and choose every single day where our loyalties lie and to whom we give first place - the most important place in our circles of trust and intimacy.  Your DH would naturally choose you and your needs and feelings and comfort over his mother's. That is healthy and right and what leaving and cleaving is and how it looks when good strong boundaries and clarity about your mil's diminished role in his life is in place.

The covert and overt sabotaging of mine or our shared special days - and of times of serious illness or profound loss - that I have experienced over the years with my own in laws has helped me understand that as trees has already said, advantage is taken and loyalties are tested during these times because they are an opening even if just an opportunity to invalidate and discourage someone who may be considered and engaged with as a rival.

It becomes a matter of behind the scenes fighting and manipulating and we know it in our knower even if our H's do not see it and believe the fairy dust that is sprinkled over rivalrous and undermining behaviors from our in laws - such as the fog of gifts that are seen as kindness and trying.

I highly suggest reading together with your DH: Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend as a neutral way to talk about intrusive, invalidating, divisive behaviors from anyone and then building strategies and unity handling them when they arise. In our marriage, taking the focus off of an in law and putting it on creating defined limits and priorities in our relationships in general helped a lot.

This is really a boundary issue. External - mil punched her ticket to participate in your bday celebrations going forward most likely. And internal boundaries over how much time and energy and head space you give an unreliable person who refuses to take responsibility for their hurtful behaviors.

Holding the respectful position in our lives that each person is responsible to clean up their own messes (mil is responsible to clean up her mess here and has chosen not to) as a core value can clear up confusion. Buying someone who we have offended something is simply spending money to placate and posture. You do not have to lower your standard to accommodate that behavior and agree with your H it is an act of sincere making amends.

Like you, I politely acknowledge a gift like this to avoid giving over one solitary bit of N supply. Keep putting each other first and communicating respectfully and wisely around all of this and hold on tight to your bond with your DH as your first priority and loyalty. And keep coming back for support. These are rough waters to navigate and you don't have to do so alone.

[Phoenix Rising]

Thanks you guys I really feel heard

I told myself about the book you suggested Bloomie and we're both interested in reading it. That's a good start.

He decided to call his mom anyway and as anticipated, she didn't acknowledge anything or apologize. He was crying saying it is a bitter pill to swallow and that she's not like this and so on. I don't know how we can set more boundaries if he wavers between thinking she is a saint and admitting on his own that he thinks she is PD. We're still going to try but that's where we are at today.

Everything you all are saying makes so much sense. It seems like I can only support DH and vice versa and that it is on him to manage his reactions and research more himself into how his mother's behaviour is inappropriate or has some kind of PD