I recently have begun resetting some boundaries in a decade's long friendship and in that emotional drama-bound process, I am noticing that I am particularly susceptible to people who have histrionic traits.
Even though I know I cannot trust a single word that drips like honey from this friend's lips I have to check myself from leaning forward and being drawn in and believing her as she takes center stage once again.
I have to remind myself that the persona that she would never hurt a soul is not real. That the manipulating and monopolizing, the shallowness, and seeming inability to listen and engage when not the center of attention is a problem that actually does hurt the people who love her.
So much of any interaction is an illusion and sleight of hand with one aim. To get what she wants by the power of her words and personality. And it works much of the time.
I don't like this vulnerability in myself and want to understand it better. All of the work coming Out of the FOG and I realize that I will need to continue working on these pockets of vulnerability.
Anyone else recognize certain PD traits that sneak through your defenses more easily? Are you willing to share those traits and how have you equipped yourself better to be more impervious to them?
Good topic Bloomie! Just off the top of my head:
1) Guilt. I apparently am guilt-ridden, because it's easy for PD's and anyone else to cause me to spend hours analyzing a situation trying to ascertain whether I did something wrong or not. If they accuse me or even hint that I did something that was rude or careless, I immediately respond with terrible guilt and then spend tons of time sorting out whether I'm a bad person or not.
2) Hoovering. I find it very hard to be cool or unfriendly in the face of someone complimenting me or giving me a gift. Even if their attention makes me very uncomfortable and I feel they aren't being totally sincere. I was just raised not to be rude.
3) Playing the victim. I've always been a "helper" and I made that worse by entering the healthcare profession. So if someone is telling me they are hurt, I'm trained to listen to their story.
I'm a novice at this, but I am beginning to get better at Labeling. Labeling their strategies. Fear, obligation, guilt, distraction, deflection, projection, gaslighting, hoovering, etc. Almost like a correcting an English paper with a red pen, I objectively look at their behavior, circle it, and label it. Looking at the patterns. It helps a lot and also can be surprisingly entertaining. Hope that helps.
Thank you Kat! That does help. I like your idea of recognizing patterns in the moment - or labeling strategies.
Apparently I am vulnerable to someone who appears to be vulnerable or hurting in some way and someone who is able to show warmth. :aaauuugh:
And yes, the self doubt and questioning you mention. I am getting much more able to show compassion and kindness to myself, but that is still a trigger for me at times.
I also still struggle with first believing people who have a history of exaggeration, manipulative speech, and out and out story telling when it is done with such confidence and skill of an accomplished verbal manipulator. It is often a few beats later that I think.... hmmm... I wonder if that is even true or what was actually said or done? And belatedly find myself ratcheting back my engagement.
I just am so awkward with the crafty manipulator types. I confuse myself sometimes. If that makes any sense whatsoever. :blush:
I'm vulnerable to people with a sob story, and like Kat, I'm the "helper" made a zillion times worse by spending a zillion years in healthcare!
I will also immediately take the blame, even if it's not mine.
I'm working very hard on my stuff and other people's stuff, and on setting and holding boundaries of what I will and will not take on. I'm not the dump. No offloading all your garbage here.
I'll tell you a thing. I made a mistake at work. It could have turned out horribly. It didn't. In a meeting my boss said "we're human. These things happen. But seriously, if you're just done, or if you can't do reviews for some reason, but you need to be here (I for example was having migraines every other day and trying to work through them), just read a trade magazine, or do something light inside your capacity. Don't push. Honestly. Some days we just aren't at full capacity."
I thought....what a lovely person.
I could never tell h that story, he'd freak right out. First at the mistake, then at the fact that my boss knew I was working with migraines, (actually she found out after the fact and was like TELL ME THESE THINGS!!!!), then he'd flip about what MIGHT have happened but didn't, then he'd bug me about never letting this happen again....
And the lovely bit about my boss would be totally lost in the mess.
I have become a hermit in the recent months, it feels like I don't do people anymore, but when I was still trying to make friends the trait I am most vulnerable to is the narcissistic self confidence. People who have strong opinions, express them loudly with great conviction, speak up and speak out - somehow I admire that and am drawn to it. I feel secure because they seem to know it all and better than me. After a while I find out that they tend to be prejudiced and their judgement is often harsh and premature, not well thought out and measured, that cools off my admiration for them, and I fade away. I don't seem to be very good at fading, as this has sometimes lead to anger and confrontation by the other party.
I am right there with you when you are talking about resetting boundaries with these sorts of people that are already in our lives. Since fighting my way Out of the FOG I have some family members who always seem to catch me in their web. They play me and then move on after I've pumped them up. I'm slowly realizing that a relationship (a true relationship) with these people are not possible. I'm tempted. Oh so tempted because each time it seems different. Like we MIGHT be growing closer. And I really want that closeness with people. So I've put up with crap behavior. I'd reason that they are nice people who have moments of ugliness. I'd want to be compassionate and helpful.
The truth is - they are ugly people who have moments of niceness. Usually when there is something for them to gain.
So now I grey rock as needed. Friendly, a bit of tsk tsk-ing, and then I escape. I cannot successfully rebuild these relationship with boundaries. Instead I endure the existing relationship by my own rules.
I remained troubled by those relationship but I find that since coming Out of the FOG I'm more careful of new friendships. For instance, there is a local business woman that I admire. She's done amazing things with her company and I'm in awe of her confidence. HOWEVER - I don't respect the content she put out on videos. She's very arrogant and "queen bee"ish. I might just be a bit jealous but overall - I roll my eyes at her social media because it just too PDish. Prior to my transformation we had loose plans to grab coffee and I really wanted to connect with her more. I imagined all the ways we'd collaborate and how awesome it would be. It never happened and I'm glad. Because now I can't imagine how I'd get through 20 minutes of chatting with her.
I'm not emotionally invested in this woman but I don't like her. This sounds cold and uncaring and at one time in my life I'd never admit that. I'd even actively pursued a friendship with her because I'd think it would challenge and better me. And I'd reason that I'd be good for her too. And even typing all this I'm realizing how PD "I" sound. Yikes! Glad I'm on these boards trying to fix myself!
Today I find I can admire her life choices (she's really built her life into something special) but realize that she's not a good person for me. I would not be a good person for her. Even if she called me tomorrow and schmoozed me - I'd say no. Politely.
Good question Bloomie. A good exercise which we night all benefit from. Our lists will all be pretty similar I wager!
So, off the top of my head, I'm vulnerable to charm, to someone giving me their whole attention (which I didn't get from mum) who really listens to me (or appears to). To someone who looks cool, edgy. To people with substance use issues (gulp).
Well, I'm glad I use a pseudonym. I clearly have work to do.
BOAT BABE omg that's one, gosh, the poor people who give me their full attention/listen to me!!!!!!! Neither my FOO (except my grandmother) nor my updh does, so YIKES!!! If some poor soul unwittingly does it now, the dam breaks. If they are ill intended, well... .
Quote from: SparkStillLit on June 17, 2020, 08:57:43 PM
I'm vulnerable to people with a sob story, and like Kat, I'm the "helper" made a zillion times worse by spending a zillion years in healthcare!
I will also immediately take the blame, even if it's not mine.
I'm working very hard on my stuff and other people's stuff, and on setting and holding boundaries of what I will and will not take on. I'm not the dump. No offloading all your garbage here.
I'll tell you a thing. I made a mistake at work. It could have turned out horribly. It didn't. In a meeting my boss said "we're human. These things happen. But seriously, if you're just done, or if you can't do reviews for some reason, but you need to be here (I for example was having migraines every other day and trying to work through them), just read a trade magazine, or do something light inside your capacity. Don't push. Honestly. Some days we just aren't at full capacity."
I thought....what a lovely person.
Wow! I wonder how many of us are in the helping or healing professions... your boss sounds like a gem who has a compassionate view of others.
Love the image that pops up in my mind of a big sign that reads: "No offloading all your garbage here. " :yes:
Quote from: notrightinthehead on June 18, 2020, 12:45:03 AM
I have become a hermit in the recent months, it feels like I don't do people anymore, but when I was still trying to make friends the trait I am most vulnerable to is the narcissistic self confidence. People who have strong opinions, express them loudly with great conviction, speak up and speak out - somehow I admire that and am drawn to it. I feel secure because they seem to know it all and better than me. After a while I find out that they tend to be prejudiced and their judgement is often harsh and premature, not well thought out and measured, that cools off my admiration for them, and I fade away. I don't seem to be very good at fading, as this has sometimes lead to anger and confrontation by the other party.
I am wondering if, for the first time, I have just a consistent starting gate position of much less tolerance for PD behaviors in general and am so much more content with a small, sincere, reasonably healthy close circle. And that may look like a bit like I'm more introverted and I am okay with that. Do you find this is true of you as well?
I have found with the large and in charge type of N, is very hard to fade away from gracefully. With one similar friend, the relationship was going to end or continue on her terms as she was extremely reactionary to even a whiff of change in her dominance of the relationship and my availability. It was a pretty painful ending and she stills pops into my life at random from time to time and then discards abruptly.
For me, one of the hardships is the very fine line of balancing myself (51% rule) and my actions/reactions in normal helpfulness of the chosens and unchosens in my life, yet recognizing PD behaviors in relationship to my helpfulness with others who are uPD's and not letting myself get taken advantage of.
I have two main uPD's in my life: my wife and my father. Both know I am a helpful and caring person when 'true assistance' is needed. I'm a believer that if a person can do something themselves, they should and be left to do so. But, when a person in my circles truly needs some assistance and I am an available person and qualified, I will typically assist.
With regard to my father: if he needs assistance because he is and old man (81) and his age prevents him from doing a necessary thing, I am willing to help. If it's an unnecessary thing, or he can still do it in his own, then I do not help. I treat my wife the same way. But, both of them know my boundary line with this and purposefully put me in a thin-line boundary decision very often. They will purposefully put themselves in an unnecessary predicament and then call on me for quick assistance, imho, to test my boundary line. When I don't respond, and can easily do so, I get PD reactions including anger, blame, criticism and silent treatment following. If I do help out (not sticking to my boundary) I find myself in these positions with them even more frequently.
PD's are masters at pushing right up against boundary lines, creating no-win situations for non's and maximizing guilt/tough decisions based on societal norms, such as assisting the elderly and conservative gentleman norms regarding a female.
SoT
Quote from: Hopeful Spine on June 18, 2020, 08:02:17 AM
I am right there with you when you are talking about resetting boundaries with these sorts of people that are already in our lives. Since fighting my way Out of the FOG I have some family members who always seem to catch me in their web. They play me and then move on after I've pumped them up. I'm slowly realizing that a relationship (a true relationship) with these people are not possible. I'm tempted. Oh so tempted because each time it seems different. Like we MIGHT be growing closer. And I really want that closeness with people. So I've put up with crap behavior. I'd reason that they are nice people who have moments of ugliness. I'd want to be compassionate and helpful.
The truth is - they are ugly people who have moments of niceness. Usually when there is something for them to gain.
THIS! 👆
Family members and old friendships that were established waaayyy before I even knew about boundaries and limits, or toxic behaviors are where we naturally want connection are where the nitty gritty work of truly coming Out of the FOG is culminating for me.
QuoteSo now I grey rock as needed. Friendly, a bit of tsk tsk-ing, and then I escape. I cannot successfully rebuild these relationship with boundaries. Instead I endure the existing relationship by my own rules.
I remained troubled by those relationship but I find that since coming Out of the FOG I'm more careful of new friendships. For instance, there is a local business woman that I admire. She's done amazing things with her company and I'm in awe of her confidence. HOWEVER - I don't respect the content she put out on videos. She's very arrogant and "queen bee"ish. I might just be a bit jealous but overall - I roll my eyes at her social media because it just too PDish. Prior to my transformation we had loose plans to grab coffee and I really wanted to connect with her more. I imagined all the ways we'd collaborate and how awesome it would be. It never happened and I'm glad. Because now I can't imagine how I'd get through 20 minutes of chatting with her.
I'm not emotionally invested in this woman but I don't like her. This sounds cold and uncaring and at one time in my life I'd never admit that. I'd even actively pursued a friendship with her because I'd think it would challenge and better me. And I'd reason that I'd be good for her too. And even typing all this I'm realizing how PD "I" sound. Yikes! Glad I'm on these boards trying to fix myself!
Today I find I can admire her life choices (she's really built her life into something special) but realize that she's not a good person for me. I would not be a good person for her. Even if she called me tomorrow and schmoozed me - I'd say no. Politely.
And to live without self condemnation of your choice to not pursue a relationship with someone who you do not believe would be good for you is actually self care and love and not harsh and unkind at all. It's healthy.
Thanks for starting this thread, Bloomie. Among other things, I'm vulnerable to even a whiff of my ex-husband playing the victim. When I say "vulnerable," I mean not so much thinking that I need to respond but feeling an unreasonable amount of negativity toward him.
He still lives in his childhood home, because he was his parents' caregiver for several years until they both died last fall. Yesterday, he mentioned that one of his siblings was visiting and that she and he had donated the used hospital-type equipment and were planning to haul yard waste. My internal reaction was, "You're a healthy adult! Can't you do this stuff on your own?" Ugh on me. Fortunately, I guess, I didn't say anything to him.
Oooohhhh, Poison Ivy, I hear you so loud on that! ( Is that a weird thing to say?)
Updh "needs my help" so often, tries to solicit it in so many ways, and it's such hard work to not "think things" in my head and just zizz that stuff on by.
Also like SoT, I fall so easily into those traditional gender roles that were heavily enforced even to the side of NOT healthy during my upbriging, and updh will skirt right along that in getting my "help", and here again it's super hard work doing a kindness and just junk.
Great topic.
It comes at a good time as I was questioning my relationship with my bff of 30 years. Yes, she was the one who listened to me hours on end about my foo when I was going through the process of going Out of the FOG, the drama then nc with each family member. I removed myself from a toxic environment.
Friendship is a give and take but her life is drama non-stop. She works with toxic pd people who backstab, gossip about her. Bosses that don't take charge when there is a problem, rug sweep. She speaks her mind and doesn't fit in boxes of a follower since she is a leader and does her job well BUT the fact remains that she is very hurt & is rejected by her fellow workers. It is always a mountain to climb to get what she wants. This has been going on for two years!
The thing is that she remains in that toxicity always saying she's had enough, will change jobs one minute then the next saying she's too old to change :-\
She also has a pd son who sucks the energy out of her, puts boundaries in place here and there but not long as there is always a new drama with him and I haven't started about her partner in life.
I am just realising this week that she remains in that sh*t and I am her emotional garbage. It's starting to suck the energy out of me. We would talk every day but I am now cutting that down as well as the length.
I am working on all of these but these are what I'm particularly vulnerable to.
I am very much a helper. I battle a lot with Codependency. It's like a physical pull to help when someone says something that is even a little bit wrong in my mind. I used to People Please to the point I wouldn't speak unless it was to enthusiastically agree with what was said, I gave extravagant gifts I couldn't afford and paid for lots of things like drinks and meals. I had a friend who really took advantage of this. I used to think I had to pay for any attention or friendship. There was nothing too ridiculous or self-sacrificing that I wouldn't do for my ex. He took complete advantage of this.
I'm very vulnerable to Hoovering/Love Bombing. During my most FOGgy times I used to get crushes on men who were simply polite to me in the office. It was crazy how starved for any positive attention I was.
I'm naive. I don't expect people to do things I wouldn't do like be unfaithful, lie about important stuff.
I'm vulnerable to believing others are better than me and their way is what I should be doing if I think they are in anyway "better" than me in certain ways - more attractive, wealthy, in better shape, more popular. It's an interesting dynamic with the Codependency.
I'm a work in progress. I think what has held me back the most is the People Pleasing and thinking that I'm not enough. It's meant that I've settled for everything - friends, relationships, career, self-care.
I wish I'd figured this out years ago but I'm glad I'm figuring it out now.
Quote from: GettingOOTF on June 19, 2020, 09:58:23 AM
I am working on all of these but these are what I'm particularly vulnerable to.
I am very much a helper. I battle a lot with Codependency. It's like a physical pull to help when someone says something that is even a little bit wrong in my mind. I used to People Please to the point I wouldn't speak unless it was to enthusiastically agree with what was said, I gave extravagant gifts I couldn't afford and paid for lots of things like drinks and meals. I had a friend who really took advantage of this. I used to think I had to pay for any attention or friendship. There was nothing too ridiculous or self-sacrificing that I wouldn't do for my ex. He took complete advantage of this.
I'm very vulnerable to Hoovering/Love Bombing. During my most FOGgy times I used to get crushes on men who were simply polite to me in the office. It was crazy how starved for any positive attention I was.
I'm naive. I don't expect people to do things I wouldn't do like be unfaithful, lie about important stuff.
I'm vulnerable to believing others are better than me and their way is what I should be doing if I think they are in anyway "better" than me in certain ways - more attractive, wealthy, in better shape, more popular. It's an interesting dynamic with the Codependency.
I'm a work in progress. I think what has held me back the most is the People Pleasing and thinking that I'm not enough. It's meant that I've settled for everything - friends, relationships, career, self-care.
I wish I'd figured this out years ago but I'm glad I'm figuring it out now.
:yeahthat:
I think we kinda all fit in the people pleasers mold to one degree or another.
Better late than never. ;) and we are a lot smarter and aware.
Great thread. Another health care worker here. What a surprise! ;)
1. I'm vulnerable to people who talk too much. I do a lot of listening in my job, which is fine, but even as a child and teen I've always attracted people - particularly friendships - who just seem to want to talk *at* me. I find it difficult to ask for the space to be heard in conversation, probably because I wasn't heard as a child/teen, and got used to being the sounding board. Plus I don't generally feel the need to say a whole lot, plus I genuinely am happy to listen - up to a certain point, plus I'm well aware that most other people do like to talk about themselves. But I notice that on those occasions when I do try to talk, I often get interrupted or the person starts looking around and seems distracted, so I give up and go quiet. Far be it from me to impose upon or bore someone. And so the cycle repeats. This is mainly the case with two friends (who don't seem to have any other friends - probably not hard to work out why). I'm also becoming a bit hermit-ish, avoidant and reclusive as quite frankly I'd rather just sit at home and knit than be exhausted by people wanting free therapy. I'm aware there's a correlation between my lack of chances to speak and my very long posts here! ;D
2. As mentioned in another poster's comment, I've often also been vulnerable to people who seem to have what we'd call charisma, good-looking or 'cool' types, too, people who give a strong impression of being very comfortable and confident with who they are. I think it stems back to my parents - particularly my uPDM - often being in thrall to or commenting incessantly about goodlooking people and somehow valuing them more highly. I'm pretty at spotting these types but I know they often initially pique my interest, and it's a red flag, although I usually give them the benefit of the doubt to begin with.
I have many more vulnerabilities but my post is long enough for now.
I'm not in healthcare anymore, I'm a regulator now (SCARY!!!) and honestly I think this has been a huge growing step for me. One MUST have a spine as a regulator, and people tend to hate us or at least push back at us pretty hard if they don't get their desired outcome or speed.
I've learned a lot of GR and MC and walk away and hey! I can apply this at HOME!
Quote from: Boat Babe on June 19, 2020, 07:31:39 AM
Good question Bloomie. A good exercise which we night all benefit from. Our lists will all be pretty similar I wager!
So, off the top of my head, I'm vulnerable to charm, to someone giving me their whole attention (which I didn't get from mum) who really listens to me (or appears to). To someone who looks cool, edgy. To people with substance use issues (gulp).
Well, I'm glad I use a pseudonym. I clearly have work to do.
Boat Babe what vulnerability. Thank you for being so open. :hug: At times I have confused charm for kindness and as we all painfully know they are not at all the same. I have learned to look for graciousness and sincerity and an ability to listen and reciprocate instead.
I can see how we all could be vulnerable to someone who gives us their support or focused attention when we come from neglectful early childhood experiences. :'(
People with substance issues... oh boy, what a snare that can be.
Quote from: doglady on June 19, 2020, 07:19:58 PM
2. As mentioned in another poster's comment, I've often also been vulnerable to people who seem to have what we'd call charisma, good-looking or 'cool' types, too, people who give a strong impression of being very comfortable and confident with who they are. I think it stems back to my parents - particularly my uPDM - often being in thrall to or commenting incessantly about goodlooking people and somehow valuing them more highly.
Much of what you wrote makes sense to me. Except for this part. My mother has always been very negative about people who are attractive or outgoing. She'd make comments about how "fake" or "stuck up" they were. I could never really enjoy my favorite aunt because my mom was always saying awful things about her. Her crime - she was fussy about her appearance and she always did special things when she hosted (like using a fancy tablecloth or making a special lemonade). When I see a confident, attractive person I admire them, long for them in my life, but do not consider them to be people I should be friends with.
Many of my "friends" are people who are "damaged" somehow. In a more obvious way than I am damaged. People who have a disability, are exceptionally unattractive, very poor, mental issues, much younger or much older, come from rough backgrounds. I also befriend people who are not "damaged" but maybe are of a different race or sexual orientation (such as, "Remember my friend Betty. You know her, she's a lesbian").
Now, being friends with anyone is great, if I really saw them for their good qualities. And I do. I'm F-ed up but not a total monster. I truly care about people. But, coming Out of the FOG, I'm realizing that I don't have much in common with them and even worse I behave differently when I am around each of them. When I'm being honest with myself I admit that these relationships began because I have a big heart but ultimately, I'm using them to make myself feel better somehow.
To be fair, most of them "use" me as much as I "use" them. It's messed up and unhealthy all the way around. But opposite of you I tend to avoid people who are exciting, interesting and seemingly "normal". What could I possibly offer to these vapid people who can see right through me, right?
I'm not proud typing any of that but it's something I need to sort out to be a genuinely real person to others and to myself. Because you know what? I like a fancy tablecloth. I like chatting about silly things like cute shoes and pretty curtains. Or Jesus. I'd love to get a pedicure with someone. Or trade healthy recipes. Or volunteer with and be of true service to others. But I don't feel worthy of those good and positive things about life. I don't want to be fake or stuck up. So I find people with real problems and I consider that being with "unfortunate" people is a better use of my time.
As I slowly grow more sad. Wow! Some days I wonder why anyone likes me.
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 19, 2020, 08:45:27 AM
For me, one of the hardships is the very fine line of balancing myself (51% rule) and my actions/reactions in normal helpfulness of the chosens and unchosens in my life, yet recognizing PD behaviors in relationship to my helpfulness with others who are uPD's and not letting myself get taken advantage of.
I have two main uPD's in my life: my wife and my father. Both know I am a helpful and caring person when 'true assistance' is needed. I'm a believer that if a person can do something themselves, they should and be left to do so. But, when a person in my circles truly needs some assistance and I am an available person and qualified, I will typically assist.
SoT - you have articulated the razor edge of difficulty in a way I could never and it makes it really clear and easy to take in. This is a compassionate view of a struggle I have at times shamed myself in when I give over in ways that are not balanced and healthy to uPD manipulative people.
QuoteWith regard to my father: if he needs assistance because he is and old man (81) and his age prevents him from doing a necessary thing, I am willing to help. If it's an unnecessary thing, or he can still do it in his own, then I do not help. I treat my wife the same way. But, both of them know my boundary line with this and purposefully put me in a thin-line boundary decision very often. They will purposefully put themselves in an unnecessary predicament and then call on me for quick assistance, imho, to test my boundary line. When I don't respond, and can easily do so, I get PD reactions including anger, blame, criticism and silent treatment following. If I do help out (not sticking to my boundary) I find myself in these positions with them even more frequently.
Do you mind me asking what you do then? When you find yourself in those positions even more frequently after having held the standard that it is most healthy for all of us to do as much as we can for ourselves for as long as we can? With my own elderly uPD family member I can relate very closely to this exact situation and feel it is a constant silent power struggle for control and an attempt to control my time and resources without having to show mutual respect by directly requesting. So chaos manufacture ensues and unnecessary predicaments arise that are near impossible not to respond to.
QuotePD's are masters at pushing right up against boundary lines, creating no-win situations for non's and maximizing guilt/tough decisions based on societal norms, such as assisting the elderly and conservative gentleman norms regarding a female.
SoT
YES! I the societal norms and cultural standards and in my own case, my faith and beliefs, have all been used to maximize guilt and ratchet up the manipulation.
What a good convo...
Similar to most people on here, I'm susceptible to people playing on my sympathies and empathy, either by playing the victim or faking vulnerability.
Quote from: doglady on June 19, 2020, 07:19:58 PM
Great thread. Another health care worker here. What a surprise! ;)
1. I'm vulnerable to people who talk too much. I do a lot of listening in my job, which is fine, but even as a child and teen I've always attracted people - particularly friendships - who just seem to want to talk *at* me. I find it difficult to ask for the space to be heard in conversation, probably because I wasn't heard as a child/teen, and got used to being the sounding board. Plus I don't generally feel the need to say a whole lot, plus I genuinely am happy to listen - up to a certain point, plus I'm well aware that most other people do like to talk about themselves.
Like doglady said, I am a listener, in real life (also why I write such long posts too! haha). Some people really run with the opportunity to take centre stage, and so I'm susceptible to pwPDs who make themselves the centre of the conversation, and don't reciprocate when it comes to listening.
Add to that, I value letting people know they are seen, heard, and affirmed. Some people have a way of eliciting this from me - constantly asserting themselves in such a way as to elicit validation/agreement (namely vulnerable narcissists). And I tend to give it, because I want people to be valued. I'll have to pay closer attention to how people suck me into that.
I guess the main PD trait here I'm susceptible to is entitlement - to our time, our attention, and to our assistance and affirmation.
I don't know what you'd actually call this in Out of the FOG terms, but my friend called it perverse curiosity. You know when they just start asking personal questions, digging for information, trying to force you to open up and be vulnerable and bare it all, under the guise of caring/bonding? It feels violating, but I'm so used to having my boundaries violated I often don't tune into the feeling of how violating it is. It's such a trap, because once you do they: 1. store the info you've given them like ammo, so at a later time they can twist it and use it against you 2. Mirror your values and beliefs back to you to trick you into thinking they're like you 3. Leach off of your vulnerability, as if they're learning, self-reflecting and growing too, when actually they're not, they're just gathering intel. Honestly, it's the third one that I find the most disturbing - it's like somebody syphoning your empathy and energy off you as you practice vulnerability, and it feels so deeply violating.
That's another behaviour I've fallen for repeatedly - mirroring. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I want to stay humble, to not think I have more integrity than other people (even when I do). So when somebody tells me they share my values, standards of behaviour, etc., I tend to believe them. When they mirror back the warmth and sincerity I try to show others, I tend to believe them.
Hi Bloomie,
You wrote: " Do you mind me asking what you do then? When you find yourself in those positions even more frequently after having held the standard that it is most healthy for all of us to do as much as we can for ourselves for as long as we can? With my own elderly uPD family member I can relate very closely to this exact situation and feel it is a constant silent power struggle for control and an attempt to control my time and resources without having to show mutual respect by directly requesting. So chaos manufacture ensues and unnecessary predicaments arise that are near impossible not to respond to. "
I agree 100% regarding the silent power struggle and chaos manufacture. Yes it is very difficult to not respond. For me, it is a case-by-case basis and I have to ask myself, regarding each case:
1. Is there a way the person can actually satisfy the need by themselves (no help needed) If yes, refuse and encourage them to do it themselves.
2. Is the need for something truly necessary for this person or unnecessary? If unnecessary, then I have a 51% rule and boundary decision to make. If its a tough call, I tend to choose the helpful decision because it's just who I am and I also don't desire to spend a lot of mental energy wrestling with myself afterwards. If I see a repetitive pattern with this need, I say no the 2nd time and any time after.
3. Is there a need because of a true limitation on the abilities of this person? #1-2 applies here as well with same rules.
4. Is there another person who can help them, other than myself? If it's a time consuming task, then I will encourage this if #2 and #3 also fit the situation.
5. Is there a paid professional that can be hired to help with the situation? Same as #4
Again it's a case by case basis. Also, if I can predict the arising need and timing, I will make sure I'm unavailable on that day and/or time. I have found that with enough refusal (because refusal was warranted in 1-5 above), that the PD learns my pattern of response and doesn't ask me as much in the future. BUT.... I 100% experience PD behaviors as a result of all refusals, and the toolbox simply applies to my actions/reactions regarding the protection of myself.
SoT
Great thread, thanks all. Great discussion.
What hooks me in is the "poor me, victim" role. People who bully through playing victim. My uPD mum did this, my father too. Also alcoholics are a hook too. (Several generations of my family were alcoholics)
I should say WERE. I have worked hard and am re-writing my early life training now.
I am pleased to share that I am now repulsed by the very things that used to attract me.
Like two magnets that attract, one has now been turned the other way around and I am repelled.
I am retired now but I was a nurse and after that I worked in another caring profession.
I used to be attracted to the outwardly self-assured people, they seemed to have what I didn't have in my insecurity, with my lack of self-esteem. Now they fortunately get on my nerves pretty quickly and I disappear before becoming involved. One problem solved, but the bigger one is the one below.
Quote from: Bloomie on June 17, 2020, 05:37:12 PM
Apparently I am vulnerable to someone who appears to be vulnerable or hurting in some way and someone who is able to show warmth. :aaauuugh:
The helper/fixer is still strong in me. Somebody mentions issues they are having and my mind goes into overdrive with practical solutions on how to help them, how to make it all better for them, how to fix their life. It is like an autonomes reaction of my mind, like Pavlov's dogs hearing the bell, and at the same time any of my needs get put on the way-back burner, actually they get deleted in my mind, because who am I to have needs, when somebody is clearly suffering and I could help them? Lifelong training to be my uPD-parents rescuer has deeply ingrained this pattern, never mind repeating it with friends, BFs and others to make it my default state of mind. Even if I might act on it in the moment, I have gotten much better at stepping back and reflecting on what I'm thinking and doing or have a strong inclination to do. I try to sleep on it for a night or two, often these automatic responses, these urges receed in this time. If I do decide to help, I try to set boundaries on how much I'm going to help in what way and make myself constantly reevaluate what I get back as a response: Is it drama, chaos, more neediness, self-victimization, or is the person also trying to help thenmselves, do I get some kind of recognition, appreciation for me (I'm not talking about a big thanks with flowers and chocolates, just making me feel seen)?
Sadly, it isn't just people expressing their needs, I also anticipate them, try to help even when nobody asks or tells me their sob story or drama (and I'm not talking about holding the door open for somebody, that is politeness). This is how I lived in updFOO, it was a way to survive to know in advance how to make their day better. I think there used to be an advertisement slogan "How can we help you today?" or "How can we make your day better today?" - it was the way my brain worked for years and still does even to the absurd "If I write a nice review I'll help this seller" not "I want to write a review because this product is important to me" :roll: instead of "Why would I spend my time on a review at all rather than sit in my garden with a book???". For me helping was as much a survival instinct as fight or flight is.
Being an introvert, who doesn't talk much about herself and a good listener, who was trained to be the psychological garbage dump for uPDFOO doesn't help, it plays into it and is one of my ways of being helpful.
And this is the other facette of it:
Quote from: Bloomie on June 17, 2020, 05:37:12 PM
And yes, the self doubt and questioning you mention. I am getting much more able to show compassion and kindness to myself, but that is still a trigger for me at times.
Not trusting my own feelings and thoughts, not feeling it is permissible to have those thoughts, thinking it is just me and therefore I'm wrong about this person and their behaviour, it is an old loop of guilt and learned behaviour, as those thoughts weren't pemissible in FOO. I'm getting better in stepping back and looking at them, evaluating them and giving them weight, recognizing them as possible early warning signs and then be more cautious till I can make a better judgement about the other person and what they bring into my life.
It is a constant issue and I don't think it will ever go away, I hope to improve on how I handle myself regarding this issue - not to jump head first into the deep end of the helping-others-pool anymore or at least get myself back on dry land pretty quickly again. I have become pretty hermit like as I still feel the self-victimhood people can spot me from a mile away, and like others said, fading away is often quite difficult once you have become even slightly friendly as they ignore the social cues and so it becomes a struggle, a struggle I don't relish and can be triggering because of the energy and fight it took to distentangle from uPDFOO.
Really helpful thread!
Great thread.
:yes: I too am a HCW, I remember reading an article years ago about the high incidence of co-dependency among those in the industry.
I think my Kryptonite is that sometimes I will view the behaviors of others as isolated incidents, and I will ascribe positive motives to explain these behaviors. In the moment, it feels as if I am being diplomatic, fair, objective, etc. In actuality, I'm delaying admitting to myself that the behavior is part of a bigger problem.
This happens only in my relationships that I cherish. My former marriage, my children, mother, close friends. Because I don't want to lose these relationships, I overlook things that should be addressed, even if it's only me realizing internally that the other person is just not invested in the relationship as I am and then adjusting myself accordingly. I eventually come around to the painful reality, but it takes me a while, I take it hard, and there is much regret.
For example, after my divorce hell and the smear campaign, I lost 95% of family/friends/church. One 'friend', showed genuine interest in what was going on, I interpreted it as being caring. When we meet up, she asks questions and shows interest, but never expresses anything in the shape of an opinion and is noncommittal. Like, 'abuse is unacceptable', 'I support your decision to divorce', 'I am sorry you went through that'...etc. I have come to realize that I am something she is intellectually curious about, and she possibly feels morally superior to me because she has a proper Christian marriage, no issues with her children, etc.
I have distanced myself from her, but feel the pull whenever we meet up, and I come away feeling used and ill. There is no real empathy or desire for connection on her part.
My tendency to do this is directly proportional to the degree of loss I am experiencing overall in my relationships. When I am longing for meaningful relationships and they are in short supply, I am most vulnerable to do this. :doh:
I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.
I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age. I was meant to fix everything for the family.
So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.
I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING. I was livid.
I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it. I found it very insulted and irratating.
Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.
I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.
She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).
Quote from: GentleSoul on June 23, 2020, 01:37:11 PM
I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.
I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age. I was meant to fix everything for the family.
So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.
I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING. I was livid.
I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it. I found it very insulted and irratating.
Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.
I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.
She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).
This is if you are a normal functioning adult. I don't think my uPDparents ever found me rescuing them annoying, it is what they expected of me and if I didn't do it, it didn't go over well and I would hear how ungrateful, selfish, unloving or whatever negative thing I was. They would also not have described it as "rescuing" but doing what is expected of a daughter.
Happy for you that you have been able to create your own freedom and find your own strength.
Thank you Son of Thunder for sharing the sequence you work through. I really appreciate it!
So many commonalities between us all as I read through each post.
Viewing poor behavior as a one off or isolated incident and ascribing positive motivations - thinking the best of others despite evidence to the contrary. Yep, I so get that.
Anticipating the needs of others and rushing in to rescue and now realizing that waiting until actually asked for help is respectful and an important filter because once asked... we can then work through it and make a measured choice.
I spent all of my childhood and young adulthood hypervigilant, finger to the wind of the needs, emotions, moods of unpredictable and unsafe parents. Working through the flashbacks that arise when I sense another's anger or disapproval - that the understandable response to perceived danger, is so much better as I identify triggers and understand my own responses. But... what a struggle overcoming this is for me.
Having a genuine interest and love of people and being a good listener is something to be self aware in. Many have mentioned how this leaves them vulnerable and I find this to be true for me as well. As a core value, I now hold a reasonable level of reciprocity - that others in my close circle would take an interest in my life to some degree, is becoming a safeguard against falling for coercive and manipulative behaviors.
Something recently I have become very aware of is that I am attracted to storytellers of all sorts. I get caught up in another's story and have painfully had this driven home as a relationship with an old friend with a lot of HPD/N traits has ruptured. Her stories have had me leaning in and following along, empathetically nodding here and there, interjecting that's too bad, or oh that sounds fun... are targeted and highly manipulative and my natural instinctive response can and will be used against me later. I have to be really careful with this.
Words have the power to create and it is fascinating and beautiful when used for good and with integrity. Words can also gaslight, create chaos and confusion, break our hearts, and if we are not careful find us talking in circles with a skilled and relentless verbal manipulator.
Quote from: practical on June 23, 2020, 02:54:37 PM
Quote from: GentleSoul on June 23, 2020, 01:37:11 PM
I hope this contributes in some way to this discussion.
I was trained to be a rescuer from a very young age. I was meant to fix everything for the family.
So I dutifully did this until some decades later I worked on myself and stopped doing it.
I mention this as someone recently tried to dash in and "rescue" me and do you know, it was very ANNOYING. I was livid.
I had mentioned a situation to her that I was dealing with and she took it upon herself to try and come fix it. I found it very insulted and irratating.
Insulting as it implies that the person thinks I am useless, which I am not.
I know in reality it was her playing out her own dysfunctions but just to mention what it feels like being on the other end of it.
She is also attracted to victim types (like I was). Is married to an alcoholic (like me).
This is if you are a normal functioning adult. I don't think my uPDparents ever found me rescuing them annoying, it is what they expected of me and if I didn't do it, it didn't go over well and I would hear how ungrateful, selfish, unloving or whatever negative thing I was. They would also not have described it as "rescuing" but doing what is expected of a daughter.
Happy for you that you have been able to create your own freedom and find your own strength.
Thank you, Practical.
Absolutely, I was very pleased at my reaction to the attempt to "rescue" me. I felt it was the reaction of a mentally well and balanced person. I found it validating for the personal growth work I have been doing on myself over the last few years.
The unrecovered me would have felt obliged to accept this offer of (sick) help. She would have rushed in and made what is currently a small issue into a massive circus and mess! The me of now just Grey Rocked her comment, ignored it within her text and carried on about my day. I was very pleased at my attitude and behaviour.
I agree that dysfunctional/PD people see it in an entirely different way. Indeed they see it as a duty. My uPD mum saw it as my duty to "rescue" her, she wouldn't see it as "rescuing" as you say, rather that it was me doing what daughters are supposed to do.
...a reasonable level of reciprocity.... I also find that if I use this as a safeguard it works as a great protection. My need to be close with other people used to be so strong that I had the tendency to be maybe even a bit pushy by making more effort to stay in contact, get together, do something together. Now I try to give others space to show me how much contact they want.
I find that the more I make an effort to look inside me - acknowledge my deep longing for being close with others and the loneliness I feel because often that longing remains unfulfilled - and then just sit with my own feelings, the less I am vulnerable to being manipulated and used.
And when I wait for the other person to show me how much contact they want it is also easier to slow the contact down if it no longer works for me.
Quote from: Bloomie on June 17, 2020, 08:49:49 AM
I recently have begun resetting some boundaries in a decade's long friendship and in that emotional drama-bound process, I am noticing that I am particularly susceptible to people who have histrionic traits.
Even though I know I cannot trust a single word that drips like honey from this friend's lips I have to check myself from leaning forward and being drawn in and believing her as she takes center stage once again.
I have to remind myself that the persona that she would never hurt a soul is not real. That the manipulating and monopolizing, the shallowness, and seeming inability to listen and engage when not the center of attention is a problem that actually does hurt the people who love her.
So much of any interaction is an illusion and sleight of hand with one aim. To get what she wants by the power of her words and personality. And it works much of the time.
I don't like this vulnerability in myself and want to understand it better. All of the work coming Out of the FOG and I realize that I will need to continue working on these pockets of vulnerability.
Anyone else recognize certain PD traits that sneak through your defenses more easily? Are you willing to share those traits and how have you equipped yourself better to be more impervious to them?
I noticed a few red flags in your description of this "friend"
I had a large reality shift when coming Out of the FOG. It was that I had to many non friend friends in my life. I had to re-evaluate each and every friendship and acquaintance and re-adjust them until they were safe and healthy. In some cases this mean no longer being in contact in other cases I discovered super people who I had not distinguished from the crowd previously.
Looking at the most uncomfortable encounters and relationships i have had and thinking back I try to examine what were my feelings about that person when I first met them. What were my expectations of the relationship or friendship. I hen try to separate the reality from my mis judgements and look for projections on my part and so forth.
In doing this sometimes uncomfortable process, I usually find patterns and can then strengthen those vulnerabilities in my self or simply avoid danger by no proceeding.
I have found that in almost all cases taking a step back and approaching new friendships more slowly than in my past screans the close calls out and I look back with thankfulness that trouble was avoided.
The feelings that I used to feel that made me want to jump in and get closer to a person and jump in and help with what ever they had going on is now a red flag to me. I proceed with caution when I feel that something. I now know its an urge to please a narcissistic person or get enmeshed with an emotional vampire or such. I guess being needed is a vulnerability of mine. If I feel to much of an opportunity I see it as a trap.
Additionally If I notice myself feeling confused or down after an interaction with someone or a group repeatedly i see that as a red flag. If I come home and wonder what I said wrong to have such an awkward interaction repeatedly where I was made to feel uncomfortable about myself or I was dismissed or devalued or invalidated etc. I now realize I need to re-evaluate the connection.
In the past I would have stewed over it. Now i see it as a social mismatch and feel much less anxiety.
I have shored up my vulnerabilities but part of that is by not being available to jerks. Other aspects of dealing with my vulnerability is screening them in the first place.
Where I cannot avoid them, I try to not take it personally and attribute it to the other person having a varying set of values and character traits from me. I resort to logic and Spock like interactions, almost like grey rock but more polite and business casual.
This is a great thread! Such good info from all of you.
I dont feel strong enough to engage too much with anyone. My old house renovation is my excuse to hide away for now.
I have what appear to be sweet neighbors, but it is such a gossipy place i just dont feel ready to wade in.
So i keep a small social circle i dont get too deep with for now. Its working out for me.