am I being realistic or looking for problems in the wrong place?

[sevenyears]

A week ago Thursday, DD8 said some violent things to me right before going to bed. As the transfers now occur on Friday mornings an hour earlier than previously, I didn't get a chance to talk to her about this in a calm manner before taking her to XH uocpd (and probably uN).

Fast forward to this past Friday, when the children returned to me. For the most part, the day went smoothly. Friday nights are pizza night - they have been since the children were little and when XH and I were still married. While DD8 was completing her school work before dinner, she asked if we could go to McDonald's since the drive through is open, and they had had pizza with their father on Thursday (of course - his new tradition). I told her we could if there was still enough time after completing her homework. It was going well until I had her redo one of the assignments - then she got frustrated and started protesting (this is regular behavior). I told her several times if she wanted to go to McDonald's then she needed to finish the assignment or we would have to eat dinner at home since there wouldn't be enough time to go. After the third time, I told her we were staying home and that I was turning on the oven to fix pizza for DS4, who was still happy to eat pizza, and that I could fix her something else.

Well, hell broke loose. DD8 and DS4 literally beat up on me - for over an hour before I could get them and the situation calm enough to skype with UNOCPD XH in keeping with our agreement. During the call, DD8 told him they couldn't go to McDs because they were hitting and scratching and biting me, and that it was my fault because I pressured her to finish her school work. His response? That's too bad!  DS4 ignored XH on the skype call until I told him it was time to finish and say goodbye. As soon as I ended the call, DS4 began hitting and scratching me again, and saying that if I didn't let him skype again with daddy that he would hit and scratch me.

The children and I have had lots of talks today that it's ok to be angry, that it is not ok to hurt oneself or others, that I love them unconditionally, but not that behavior and that it is not ok to threaten (using language for a 4 year old).  DS responded several times "why is that my problem?" which is exactly something XH says.   

Some of the things that came out today: when they are angry at XH, and say they want to come to me, he tells them that it hurts his feelings that they want to be with me and not him. When DS4 cries for something, XH gives in and gives him what he wants.  That daddy was very nice last week (no details about this). They talked a lot last week about stranger danger; he told them it was ok to hit someone if they were trying to kidnap/hurt them. Apparently, the stranger he used as his example, was a friend's dad. Of course, it's good for children to learn about stranger danger and what to do. I wonder about the timing of this conversation and the submessages the children heard - especially since used to accuse me of planning to kidnap the children, and because he doesn't tell the children "well, don't hit your mother" when they tell him about hitting me. And, that was not the first time - after such an incident with my daughter a few months ago, he told her, "it's a topic between you and your mother." He didn't say anything that it is wrong to hit someone.

Am I being realistic? Or, just looking for problems?

And, I wonder if he didn't somehow set up this meltdown. He has a history of "punishing" me through the children - especially before the separation, but still sometimes during it.  Here's what I know about the "inputs" last week: when the children transferred from me to him, DD was on edge (she is a foster daughter and dealing with her FOO). I tried to cooperate with him about a school administrative question, and did not acquiesce when he tried to take control. Instead, his accusations to me escalated (and were untrue). I expressed concerns to him about his lack of social distancing for the children with other kids in the neighborhood and called him out when he tried to gaslight me. I reactivated stalled efforts (due to shelter-in-place policies) to have DD8 evaluated because of a period of anger + aggression. He had initially been against having her tested. And, I have tried to get him to come to a final arrangement on legal issues for shared custody since we need to conclude mediation in the next week or so (and, he continues to ignore me). And, he's been reading through DD's schoolwork during her time with me in which she writes things like "my mommy is the coolest." 

DD is scheduled to meet the psychologist this week to start the evaluation. I will let the evaluator know about the incident and my concerns about the messages XH is conveying, and asking again that they find a way to help DD8.

My kids are planning on making me breakfast in bed tomorrow, which is something I've always wanted. I hope I don't cry.  UNOCPD XH incited conflict the previous two mother's days - making that simple wish impossible.

[notrightinthehead]

it's your party, you can cry if you want to....

sounds like a really complicated situation. Might be your best bet to keep real and focus on yourself and your own relationship with your kids. Like th Vegas thing - what happens with your dad stays with your dad, what happens with me stays with us. Your primary concern is the relationship you have with your kids. You want them to know that you love them. You also want to role model healthy behaviour for them.

[pushit]

sevenyears - My sympathy to you, my first impulse is that your ex got the kids fired up to ruin Mother's Day.  I hope it was still a good day for you, because you certainly deserve it with everything you're dealing with!!

Biting, hitting and scratching Mom?  Ummmmm....NO WAY, NO HOW.  I think you need to put down a serious boundary there and make it clear that Mom needs to be respected.  (Disclaimer - I, of course, do not condone physically harming kids)  BUT, I believe if your kids are physically attacking you then you have every right to hold them down to stop it and then send them to their rooms to calm the situation.  I think you need to make it very clear that's not OK.  Basic human rights - If you're being attacked, you have the right to stop it.

And then yes, I completely agree that some sort of evaluation is recommended for both of your kiddos.  Acting out with violence is concerning, and hopefully you can find them a T to help them find better ways to cope with emotions. 

I wish you the best, it sounds like a difficult situation.

[Penny Lane]

Being realistic. I think you're definitely right, he probably wound up the kids to behave this way especially because it was Mothers Day weekend and because he feels threatened by your good relationship with the kids.

It sounds like you handled this amazingly, especially the part where you told them you loved them and it's ok to be angry but their behavior isn't ok. This is the behavior of kids who are hurting, and my guess is it's because of whatever their dad did or said before they got to your house. They need their calm, stable mom to help them learn how to come out of that state and, hopefully, avoid it altogether. I hope you can get that evaluation for your DD and that you can settle up mediation appropriately.

I will say, we've worked for years with my stepkids about the same kind of emotional skills you're talking about. And it really has gotten a lot better. It's slow but the kids have picked up the skills and I even think the 12 year old is able to see when his mom is trying to manipulate him into being mad at his dad, and so he's able to pull himself out of it. I think things will similarly get much better for you in the long term.  I also think this will get easier in a lot of ways after you finalize the agreement; your ex will feel like he has less to prove (to the court system and to himself). I also think once the kids settle into post-divorce routines they'll be less stressed overall, so he'll be less able to rile them up.

In the meantime, you're doing such a good job I hope you got a really great Mothers Day breakfast. You deserve it.

[sevenyears]

Penny - thank you. Yes, the children, especially DD8, are hurting. That doesn't justify or excuse their behavior, it just puts it in perspective. The evaluation started today. We should have the results in mid-June. UNOCPD XH wasn't supportive, but seems to be playing along. If the welfare agency decides she will have therapy, she will have therapy. period. If they say she doesn't need it, then she won't go. The decision is in their hands - not ours, fortunately. Meanwhile, DS4 is also asking lots of questions this week about the divorce. He's going through a new phase and processing emotions.

Pushit - yes, I agree. It's unacceptable behavior and needs boundaries. In our house, the rules are if you hit or hurt someone, then no television, and if you say something mean, you have to make a contribution to the swear jar. That usually works pretty well and eliminated most of that behavior at my house. DD8 is my foster daughter - I think there is a lot of baggage from her FOO, and that's exacerbated from a contentious divorce from her foster father who is UNOCPD. DS4 is the GC there. He is starting to mirror UNOCPD XH behavior - that's where the threats come from. While XH doesn't directly say he will hurt them, there is often a subtext of menace. A four-year-old simply doesn't have the verbal skills to be subtle. And, while four-year-olds often try to avoid taking responsibility for their behavior, the phrase he uses is exactly the one XH uses. 

You're right, Notright, that I my first responsibility is to concentrate on my own relationship with the children. I wanted to check in with fellow Out of the FOG-ers to see if I'm being paranoid whether XH UNOCPD is somehow egging this on. If I can see better his patterns, it's easier for me to prepare for the next round. The kiddos are settling down. I suspect next week will also be fairly bumpy. XH has derailed mediation on custody/parenting issues, as well as on the dissolution of assets, plus it's my birthday. Sigh.   

[MSW2020]

It could be that they were scared of the idea of stranger danger and how to protect themselves and they may have been acting out the defensive behaviors your ex told them about on you (a safe space) to ask for help in the way kids do - through actions - for how to process this scary info and the idea they may need to physically defend themselves.

Your ex might be intentionally freaking them out, or just trying to protect them. He may be telling them things that are developmentally inappropriate. It sounds like they are overwhelmed about something with their dad and they are acting out their need for safety with you.

[sevenyears]

MSW - interesting insights. I will give them some thought. I think it is good to teach kids - in an age appropriate way - about stranger danger. The example he used was fighting back if someone tries to kidnap them. His example was a random friend's parent - ie someone known to them. To me, that is so loaded, since he accused me of intending to kidnap the children. And, on the morning of the separation, when I moved out, his uPD brother angrily yelled at the children that if they left with me, I would never let them see their father again. That was two years ago (and the day before DS's birthday), but it is still inside of them.