Sexuality, pleasure & sexual health (sensitive topic!)

[MarlenaEve]

Hi all.

This topic is really sensitive and I must warn those who're shyer about sex or sexual topics.

Anyway, I realized that sex is inexistent for narcissists, in my case, my narcissistic parents. They are not s. active and are not into 'it'.
They don't have a good relationship and I think they're better off getting divorced. (but of course, they'll never just divorce each other because what would their relatives say? It's shameful to recognize you have failed as a spouse). I also don't understand HOW can they live life without sexual pleasure and intimacy and they'd rather fight the other person all day every day?!

Growing up, sex was not discussed in the family and how to protect yourself in a relationship was a no-go subject. As a result, I probably have internalized a belief that sex is bad, sex is dangerous or sex is something you don't need and you should stay away from.
It took me a long time to have my first sexual relationship and, thank god I had it with a nice and gentle guy.

However, later on, I stumbled upon narcissistic or neglectful partners. One of them was very sexually active and I believe, being with him gave me an std-related skin problem (which I'm currently trying to fix).

It is amazing to me that, while I was with this guy, I didn't even for a one-second pause to think he may not be the right guy for me, due to his active and same-sex sexual life (he slept with both genders). I'm an open person so I don't judge what people did in the past. However, he was not even a touch worried about what he may give to me as a partner. I was also not worried because I was in love with him and you all know how reckless you can be when in love.

Anyway, now I realized that one should have really good sexual boundaries with a new partner, maybe asking them to get an std test to see if they're healthy etc. I was always embarrassed to ask them this because it sounded like I didn't trust them. But this will change and I'll never be so reckless in my intimate relationships.

Although self-protection for an ACON is hard, I'll do my best to remember that my health comes first. And if any partner will refuse protection or tests before intimacy then they're not worth it.

Sexual pleasure

I was not taught that one should enjoy their partner and be in a pleasurable relationship. So, I never really had pleasure or fun in intimate relationships (the last relationship was very close to me having pleasure and fun in intimacy, but as I said, the guy was reckless and didn't care much about protection). The partner before him was a narcissist and there was zero pleasure with him.

So how would one even understand that intimate relationships SHOULD be fun, pleasurable, and worry-free if they never saw this in their parents or family life? That's a huge reason why I stay away from dating and would rather hang out with men and be friends with them. Sex is difficult and very often someone ends up getting hurt or freaked out about it.

How did you learn about sex and did you find someone that you were able to feel safe, free, and happy with 'in the bedroom'?

Thanks for listening, this was such a difficult topic for me to talk about.

[Cat of the Canals]

This is an interesting topic that I hadn't thought much about before re: my parents. PDmom was DELIGHTED to give the menstruation talk when I was 8 and my friend asked her about it (I would never have asked her such a thing). But she never really talked about sex or even relationships, that I can remember.

She isn't overtly prudish - she'll make jokes and innuendos. But I definitely picked up on the idea that she would NOT have approved of high school aged kids having sex... especially not me. (Because that would be an independent, adult thing, and those things were ALWAYS frowned upon.)

So no... she definitely didn't talk to me about what a relationship should be like and how sex would fit in. Or what a good partner would be like. I was actually terrified of sex as a teen. It sounded weird and embarrassing and painful. The level of intimacy required was something I couldn't even imagine. I didn't date at all in high school because again, I got this very distinct (but never said out loud) impression from both parents that they wouldn't approve, and I worried they would somehow make it uncomfortable for me.

In some ways, I regret not dating then. I look back and it seems silly that I was so scared and sad that I kept myself so closed off from everyone... and yet understandable given the family situation. I do think if I'd dated in high school, the relationships probably would have been disastrous because I was never taught about healthy boundaries.  But despite having very little experience, I did manage to find a caring, empathetic partner.

Also, sort of on topic... I had to start taking hormonal birth control for medical reasons when I was 15. After three months, my mother decided I should stop taking it. She insisted my doctor had said it would only be temporary (which I do not remember the doctor saying at all). I didn't want to stop taking it, because I was terrified of the symptoms coming back (we didn't know then, but I have a chronic disease that pretty much requires I take hormones continuously to be managed). But my mother insisted. I stopped taking them, and of course the symptoms came back. Shocking. I don't think she liked me being on birth control because it gave me some agency over my own body.

[theonetoblame]

This is interesting to me as well. The topics that matter about sex and relationships were never discussed in my family. My father was overweight and insecure and had no 'game' (for lack of a better word) and was unable to teach me anything about interacting with women, dating, having sex etc. My mother told me repeatedly that she wished I was a girl and there was always a weird energy with her, that she was threatened by my sexual status as a boy (she had been sexually abused by an older brother).

It was, however, fully expected that I was to be sexually active from the age of 15 or so. Thing is, I was shy and also acutely aware of the gossiping circles girls in my school formed. I just didn't want to be a topic, but the girls who were not in those circles were 'nice girls' and I never believed I qualified to be with a nice girl until my late 20's when I started to recover. I've been married to a nice girl for over 20 years, we're stable and healthy together.

When I turned 16 they ramped up the pressure and bought me 'sexy' underwear for my birthday. There I sat, red faced and totally embarrassed, after opening the gift of these tight, bright red, leopard print and other colored underwear, while they tied into me about how I needed to "get out there", and to basically get my f on! A year and a half later I left that home, and of course I found my way into some weird situations with women.

I realized straight away that I was suffering from ptsd from when my mother used to pin me to the ground and yell in my face. If a woman wanted to sit in my lap, or otherwise be on top of me, it was all I could to do not throw her off me and run out of the room. I made the connection early though, and eventually began telling sexual partners about this troubling aspect of my history. I eventually came around to enjoying sex, although my early draw to PD women, or women who were unhealthy and prone to dependency, created complications on this front for quite a while. 

So yes, there is no question that my family history caused intimacy issues for me!

[Hepatica]

I think we have an "over-culture" that is really toxic about sexuality in general - at least in North America. No one's parents talked about sex when I was a teen in the 80's.  I have huge issues with it that I am not sure how to heal. It makes me sad. I totally understand why you bring it up and I've been thinking much more about it. Esther Perel has some great research into healing issues around sexuality.

Bottom line I think sexuality is my/our birthright, and it is one fantastic way to bring joy and connection, that it is meant to be a very good thing between consenting adults, whether in marriage, long-term partnership or even casually if done honestly and safely. But the messages i got growing up were very shaming for women and I have internalized them in a very big way, which is unfortunate because it eases stress, releases good endorphins and bonding hormones and when it is within a loving relationship, it is one of the best things a human can enjoy in this short life, if it is something you enjoy.

PD's in my family all have issues with it. They could not speak about it. They distrusted it and they cloaked it in a "sinful" terms and shameful language - and silence  - as if we come from a long line of puritans. I have been trying to release this shame for so many years.

Because i am wanting to spend the next half of my life in more joy, I am going to try to heal some of these thought patterns and woundings.

[Sidney37]

My PDm and PD grandmother both found sex to be shameful.  They were very prudish.  My grandmother hid in her house and in bulky clothing if leaving the house was required when she was married and pregnant in the late 40's and early 50's.  Both my grandmother and mother thought pregnant women should not be seen much outside of the house and certainly shouldn't be news/weather anchors on the tv.  That was shameful.  Maternity clothes should be tent like so no one could see the impression of your stomach.  If you listened to the very occasional talk of frustrated men in my family, supposedly the women stopped having sex entirely after their final pregnancies.  The women would have been less than 35. They and their husbands lived into their 60s, 70s and 80s. 

[JustKat]

Hi MarlenaEve,

My Nmother never taught me anything about sex, other than it was something dirty and bad. She was forced to have "the talk" with me in sixth grade when the school announced they were going to show a sex-ed film. Her talk was an exercise in fear. All she did was tell me stories about teenage girls who had died in childbirth, her way of making sure I stayed away from boys in high school. That whole talk was sooooo creepy and weird.

When I was in high school there was a guy in my class named Clint. The other kids used to make fun of him and call him clit. I asked one my friends what that meant and got ridiculed. When they realized I really didn't know what a clitoris was they shamed me and said, "You better have a talk with your mother." Well, that was the problem. There was no internet back then so I couldn't google it. Forty years later and I still think about that. I was so embarrassed that I didn't know.

The first time I had sex it was forced on me. I went on a date and he took me into the back seat. I had no idea what was happening until it was over. It was basically a rape. After that, I was never able to enjoy sex.

I never had children because my mother planted so much fear in me about childbirth. Even though people told me I had been manipulated, I just couldn't erase the things I'd been told as a child by my own mother, the person who I was supposed to trust more than anyone.

[Amadahy]

Thanks for bringing up the topic, MarlenaEve.  I was curious, but my Nmom would not talk to me at all about menstruation, sex or any of it.  So, when I was eleven or so, a neighbor girl told me (in great detail, with embellishment) about all of it!  I went to Nmom and told her what neighbor had told me and asked if it were true.  She said, "yes," and that was the extent of our "talk."  Well, except that if I had premarital sex I would go to hell! 

It was a weird vibe in my house ... Nmom or EnDad wouldn't talk to me about any of it, but Nmom I'm pretty sure had an affair and was also somewhat fixated on my budding sexuality, later on asking inappropriate questions or making scathing comments, going so far as to call me a "whore" or "slut," before I even knew what those meant.  It is interesting that my first cycle came at age 12, while I was at a friend's house.  The friend's mom was so kind to me and didn't give off the shame vibe that I know I would've gotten at my house.  My Nmom reminded me of the mom on the original movie Carrie.  Yeah, that creepy about her daughter's growing up.   

I did manage to marry a wonderful, caring, gentle man and we've enjoyed a good sex life, but it did take me many years to let myself relax enough to truly enjoy intimacy and sex.  I was very self-conscious and I believe some inappropriate acts from my Nmom (that I can't quite remember fully) contributed to a sense of shame and self-loathing that did not help me fully embrace my own needs in the bedroom until I was much older (and sometimes I still slip into this).  Now, with dementia, Nmom becomes fixated on the men at the facility where she lives wanting to have sex with her.  Thankfully, I am able to redirect, but not before I throw up in my mouth a little. 

Oh, and in terms of childbirth .... my mother would have had me believe I would die in childbirth.  She even wrote letters to my in-laws to this effect!  I was so annoyed by this, but I thankfully had three wonderful pregnancies and deliveries.  I did not allow her in the delivery room with any of them.  She apparently had a horrible pregnancy and delivery with me, which probably contributed to my scapegoat status. She tried especially hard with my firstborn to claim she was his "second mommy."  I shut that crap down fast.  She was really a horrible mother who had had a horrible mother, so while she wounded me deeply, she too was wounded.  I hope I cut that sh!t out ... my guys seem pretty mentally healthy, thank goodness. 

I think it's wonderful and wise that you are taking care of yourself in regard to relationships, MarlenaEve! 

[JustKat]

She apparently had a horrible pregnancy and delivery with me, which probably contributed to my scapegoat status. e!

Wow, same here! I was the firstborn and naturally was a more painful delivery. I was punished for that by constantly being told that I almost killed her when I was born and that I would die if I got pregnant. My brother, the GC, was the last child born. She always praised him for being such a good boy when he was a baby and that "he didn't even hurt coming out."

And yes, I also relate to the movie "Carrie." That film was released in my senior year of high school and I felt so connected to Carrie White. Margaret White was a religious zealot, not a narc, but many of the actions were the same, and Carrie suffered the same way that I did in school. The tampon scene at the beginning was not unlike what I experienced. My therapist once suggested that I write a book and I told her Stephen King beat me to it!

[JustKeepTrying]

I remember my and I having dinner out one night - I was in my 30's and it was shortly before she passed - she told that my father's meds made so they couldn't have sex.  I really didn't want to hear about it but she said - you are grown up enough to know I'm not a virgin - it was just up that point she made sex sound so horrid.  Mechanical.  She then told me that she and my father had wham bam thank you man sex daily up to the meds.  Over 30 years.  I have begun to suspect that my now deceased father was a covert narc.

A year later I called because my OCPDxh was having an affair.  And her answer was we need to have more sex and to give into him physically whatever he desired.  So I did.  Mother's always right, right?

In college, I had several sexual encounters but none of them full sex until I was assaulted.  It was after that I things got strange for me and continued up to today.  Now post divorce, on my own, I purchased a vibrator and I can say that for the first time I get it.  Whether I have sex with another person, I don't know.  I am in my late 50's and post menopausal so desire is not a thing.  But it has been very messed up in my lifetime.

There was no talk.  Just a panic in the bathroom and my mom handing me pads and a special belt (yeah, that old - i didn't use a tampon until mid 20s).  After that, I was on my own.  Huge issues through all my life.  Honestly now, it's nice to have that hassle.

[Boat Babe]

Hi MarlenaEve,

My Nmother never taught me anything about sex, other than it was something dirty and bad. She was forced to have "the talk" with me in sixth grade when the school announced they were going to show a sex-ed film. Her talk was an exercise in fear. All she did was tell me stories about teenage girls who had died in childbirth, her way of making sure I stayed away from boys in high school. That whole talk was sooooo creepy and weird.

When I was in high school there was a guy in my class named Clint. The other kids used to make fun of him and call him clit. I asked one my friends what that meant and got ridiculed. When they realized I really didn't know what a clitoris was they shamed me and said, "You better have a talk with your mother." Well, that was the problem. There was no internet back then so I couldn't google it. Forty years later and I still think about that. I was so embarrassed that I didn't know.

The first time I had sex it was forced on me. I went on a date and he took me into the back seat. I had no idea what was happening until it was over. It was basically a rape. After that, I was never able to enjoy sex.

I never had children because my mother planted so much fear in me about childbirth. Even though people told me I had been manipulated, I just couldn't erase the things I'd been told as a child by my own mother, the person who I was supposed to trust more than anyone.

That's terrible Kathy. I'm so sorry  ❤️

[MarlenaEve]

PD's in my family all have issues with it. They could not speak about it. They distrusted it and they cloaked it in a "sinful" terms and shameful language - and silence  - as if we come from a long line of puritans. I have been trying to release this shame for so many years.

Yes, my fam as well. I think they equate sex/intimacy with shame and sin. It is so sad and to have to undo this 'legacy' is such a big burden.

[MarlenaEve]

Hi MarlenaEve,

My Nmother never taught me anything about sex, other than it was something dirty and bad. She was forced to have "the talk" with me in sixth grade when the school announced they were going to show a sex-ed film. Her talk was an exercise in fear. All she did was tell me stories about teenage girls who had died in childbirth, her way of making sure I stayed away from boys in high school. That whole talk was sooooo creepy and weird.

When I was in high school there was a guy in my class named Clint. The other kids used to make fun of him and call him clit. I asked one my friends what that meant and got ridiculed. When they realized I really didn't know what a clitoris was they shamed me and said, "You better have a talk with your mother." Well, that was the problem. There was no internet back then so I couldn't google it. Forty years later and I still think about that. I was so embarrassed that I didn't know.

The first time I had sex it was forced on me. I went on a date and he took me into the back seat. I had no idea what was happening until it was over. It was basically a rape. After that, I was never able to enjoy sex.

I never had children because my mother planted so much fear in me about childbirth. Even though people told me I had been manipulated, I just couldn't erase the things I'd been told as a child by my own mother, the person who I was supposed to trust more than anyone.

I'm so sorry about the rape and your mother's gaslighting you about sex ((

[MarlenaEve]

I did manage to marry a wonderful, caring, gentle man and we've enjoyed a good sex life, but it did take me many years to let myself relax enough to truly enjoy intimacy and sex. 

That's beautiful and you give me hope. enjoy

[MarlenaEve]

JustKeepTrying-kudos for buying a vibrator. Sex is sex including doing it with yourself. I've actually been thinking of buying one myself

Not sure if anyone saw the tv series 'Grace and Frankie'.

These 2 senior gals become friends after their husbands divorce them..they discover their sexuality later in their 70's. They even had an adult toy business that was successful. That show gave me so much confidence in my sexuality and in myself as an ACON.

[daughter]

NM traipsed around our FOO home naked, evenings, shortly before our bedtimes, nearly daily, in pretext of "getting ready to shower" yet needing to come into TV room.   

NF also often walked around in his boxer-shorts, in full view of his two daughters, demanded "hugs" from me during my teens.

NF always left their bedroom to get his condoms, inexplicably stored in guest powderroom closet off entry hallway rather than their bedroom. My bedroom door was immediately adjacent to their door; I was not allowed to close my door.

I wasn't allowed to lock bathroom door if using toilet, our showering. NM often entered bathroom while I was using it. Ditto for my bedroom, getting dressed; bedroom and it's closet often snooped.

And yet, with all their inappropriate sexualized casual behavior, my 1st period was a shock to totally uninformed 13 year-old me. I thought I was grievously I'll.  NM snickered when I alerted her.

Pregnant with my oldest, in my mid-30s, NM insisted it was her/their right to attend hospital birth. Though otherwise still "dutiful daughter" obedient, I said NO, and instructed DH and hospital staff NO WAY!  Yet they both elbowed into recovery room, post emergency c-section, to view "their baby", to be shooed out by staff.  Ugh!
Ugh. Narcisstic people, terrible parents.

[Hepatica]

Another Grace and Frankie fan over here!! 
It's so funny!

[JustKat]

I wasn't allowed to lock bathroom door if using toilet, our showering. NM often entered bathroom while I was using it. Ditto for my bedroom, getting dressed; bedroom and it's closet often snooped.

My Nmother did the same. The locks were removed from my bedroom and bathroom doors and she came in when I was the most vulnerable. When she gave me "the talk" she had me strip down and get in the bathtub. She made me feel uncomfortable about my body, something that stayed with me. I was really traumatized by it.