Out of the FOG

Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

You're right it is none of my business whether he visits, his wife visits, or he send his cat - I dont care. I've told him this in the past when hes trying to tell me his wife can't go as much because her own Dad is ill "good for her!" I've said.

Brother does rope it all into "shared responsibilities". His wife helps out so mine should as well in his eyes. Like I said, I don't care if she goes or not. Up to her totally. Same with my brother - visit or not I don't care. This is what we've argued about - leave me out of the joint idea - not interested. I have a BIG ISSUE with him when hes texting my wife being abusive telling her what HE thinks she should be doing for our Dad. His excuse is well his wife does it so why can't mind. You can see what I mean?

As some of you have said, I've stepped out and said, please don't contact my wife, I will speak to Dad to arrange things between us, you and you're wife do what you like.

And finally, I do have a bit of a reason for having a problem with his wifes visits. She did it for a while then told Dad he was going to be his official "carer" and she could get money off the government so it'd work out well for both of them. No-one mentioned it to me until they wanted me to get info for them. Of course, Dad was well up for the idea, he doesn't need a carer at all but, hey, hes happy to have someone running around.

So I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

WI - do you know what? Someone else said that in another thread.....

Dad is getting SO obsessive about it that its getting well weird. He actually started shouting at me down the phone last week when I told him I was going for a meal with people from work and then driving home. Nuts, eh? I put the phone down.

Next day I said "right this needs to stop". He did it again a few days later. He knew I was going out again (this time I was on the train, staying over). Even then he had to stay "so you definitely didnt take the car then!". Jeez no I might have accidentally not thought and done it anyway.

But it all sort of makes sense. If I couldn't drive I pretty much could not visit him ever. Its probably an hour plus on the train each way.....

Wait until I go to Glastonbury music festival next year. He'll see on TV how many drug arrests there are and be convinced I'm on crack or something..... Mentioned it last year, only about 40 times....To be honest, last year, I had a few pints of cider, had a stomach upset (always use hand gel!) and was too ill to drink all weekend. RocknRoll eh?

Quote from: p123 on December 09, 2019, 11:18:57 AM
Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

The previous Xmas is Coming topic was 5 pages, are we going to try for another 5 pages? I didn't misunderstand anything.

The way I see it, your brother has a right not to have Dad at Christmas. You have a right not to have Dad at Christmas, your SIL has a HUGE right not to be a caregiver for Dad especially if she isn't being paid. Who the heck wants to do that for free? 100% not me - no way, no how. I'd say SIL is smart to not even consider it. It would be a huge pain to be a caregiver for your Dad.

It's up to you how much you want to keep talking about Xmas is Coming and how you're going to handle it. The advice given will still be the same. I saw some stellar advice given by a bunch of forum members time and time again. Doesn't matter the fine details or the semantics of exactly what you meant. The advice given was solid and Narc tested. You take care of you and it doesn't matter what brother, SIL and Dad do. Protect yourself, your wife and your children - that's the biggest thing you have to worry about when dealing with your NPD dad.

QuoteSo I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

Seems all this extra discussion of brother, SIL, and dad is a distraction beyond the original question. What to do about Xmas. Somewhere in the last thread of Xmas is coming, I believe you decided you aren't having Dad to your house. Your wife doesn't want him and you don't either. That's great! Don't have him, good boundary setting by you. All this other discussion doesn't really matter then. 

I get wanting to talk and rehash details but how much of a benefit is it to you? I think too much of it dilutes what's going on and takes you away from what you need to do. Protect you, wife and children from a narc parent. A blunt reply but I think you're getting caught up in He Said - She Said. Doesn't matter what they're doing. If you pull back from all that, life will be better.

I agree on the points for Brother and Sister-In-Law. Some things to chew over, p123. I have found that part of FOG is misplacing frustrations - legitimate frustrations, but put in the wrong place.

I think PD is fundamentally about messing up boundaries. So we have to sort of pull apart what's "yours" and what's "mine" since the PDs in our lives have mixed that all up. So it's to be exoected that coming Out of the FOG would involve a learning curve on that - including what's "yours," what's "brother's," what's "SIL's," and what's "father's."

Personally I'm fine if you need another thread to get through Christmas. It's a big year for you because you are taking some very big steps. If you need to vent a bit or get feedback as you go, that seems like a way this forum can support you - and also your wife (so you can manage not to vent to her).

You've got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad won't like it. None of the suggestions you've been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that you're right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and it's not your business how he spends it or doesn't. Your brothers familys time is theirs and it's not your business how they spend it. But your know what's yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You don't have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife don't want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: p123 on December 09, 2019, 11:18:57 AM
Hope no-one minds - the previous one closed.

I think a few of you have misunderstood some of what I said.

The previous Xmas is Coming topic was 5 pages, are we going to try for another 5 pages? I didn't misunderstand anything.

No not at all. Not referring at all to the thread being closed, any admin decision or the length at all - merely referring to the last few posts in the last one. (which I couldnt answer because it closed).

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM

The way I see it, your brother has a right not to have Dad at Christmas. You have a right not to have Dad at Christmas, your SIL has a HUGE right not to be a caregiver for Dad especially if she isn't being paid. Who the heck wants to do that for free? 100% not me - no way, no how. I'd say SIL is smart to not even consider it. It would be a huge pain to be a caregiver for your Dad.

QuoteSo I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

Quote from: Fiasco on December 10, 2019, 10:45:29 AM
You've got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad won't like it. None of the suggestions you've been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that you're right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and it's not your business how he spends it or doesn't. Your brothers familys time is theirs and it's not your business how they spend it. But your know what's yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You don't have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife don't want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

Ha ha maybe I'm thinking its the calm before the storm....... Dads not coming over, waiting for brother to find out and all hell break loose to be honest....

Oh I'm sticking to it......

Maybe your SIL has an agenda and is a user, but what we're saying is it's not your problem. It's between your SIL, your brother, and your father.

This is for your GOOD that you can let go of this burden. You can't even change your SIL anyway. All it does is add atress to you, which is bad for you and your FOC.

Hi p123,

You posted--

Quote from: p123 on December 10, 2019, 11:21:09 AM
...Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I understand you wanting to protect your dad.  That said, your dad is not incompetent.  He is capable of making his own decisions.

It has been my experience that setting boundaries and following through with consequences for someone not respecting those boundaries is not going to be very successful if you are still invested in the outcome.  Letting go of the outcome-- and this means your dad's reaction-- is paramount to good boundary setting. 

Certainly, if you feel your dad is being unduly taken advantage of, take steps to prevent it.  I would consider seeing an attorney.  But I don't think you can continue worrying about your dad getting upset.  By doing that, you are taking responsibility for his life.  This is not necessary, since he is competent.  And it puts an undue burden on you, and may even lead to you being held "hostage" by your dad's emotions.  That is, that you are still considering his feelings before you make decisions, like setting boundaries.  My humble advice to you is to set your boundaries and let the chips fall where they may with your dad.  I know that's difficult, because you feel responsible for him.  But the reality is, your dad is a competent adult, and while he doesn't always make the right decisions, he needs to know that you aren't going to step in and rescue him from bad ones. 

123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.

Quote from: p123 on December 10, 2019, 11:22:54 AM

Quote from: Fiasco on December 10, 2019, 10:45:29 AM
You've got a lot of very excellent advice but you seem stuck on the idea that none of it will work because your dad won't like it. None of the suggestions you've been given rely on, or were mean to, change how your dad feels. There comes a time when you have to stop trying to get everyone else in the world to do what you want and to agree that you're right and to like it.

Your dads money is your dads and it's not your business how he spends it or doesn't. Your brothers familys time is theirs and it's not your business how they spend it. But your know what's yours? And your business? Your time and your home.

You have the perfect right to spend Christmas, weekends, after work etc with whomever you like as you and your wife see fit. You don't have to invite anyone to your home that your and your wife don't want there. I hope you can focus on your wonderful family at home this Christmas without obsessing over who else wants to agree that you have the right to do so.

Ha ha maybe I'm thinking its the calm before the storm....... Dads not coming over, waiting for brother to find out and all hell break loose to be honest....

Oh I'm sticking to it......

I agree with Fiasco.  You seem to want your father to accept your decision AND be happy with it.  We all know that is not going to happen.  But that is ok.  He doesn't have to be happy with anything.  No one is happy all the time yet for some reason we feel are responsible for another person's happiness.  And the funny part is it is usually about a person who is never going to be happy no matter what we do.  You need to make some really good memories with your kids before they are too old.

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 10, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
Maybe your SIL has an agenda and is a user, but what we're saying is it's not your problem. It's between your SIL, your brother, and your father.

This is for your GOOD that you can let go of this burden. You can't even change your SIL anyway. All it does is add atress to you, which is bad for you and your FOC.

Of course. I know I should let it go. Trouble is their actions affect me and how Dad deals with things.

I appreciate we're two different people. BUT he won't let that go and thinks I need to do what he says. It annoys me I know what they're really like and they're dictating to me and calling me names.

Quote from: PeanutButter on December 10, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.

Yeh OK you're right..... Im beginning to realise the triangulation thing. Im washing my hands now and taking a step back.

There is a lot more to the story to be honest. As others have said, I cant change my Dad, my brother, or my SIL. They can all carry on now as far as I'm concerned - Im not interested in the dramas.

Maybe my problem is that I care too much about what happens with my Dad. This is stopping now.

Hi p123,

I just wanted to say that it is normal and humane and kind to care about the members in your family, to feel connected and affected by them, and to experience frustration and worry when they make decisions or take actions or say things that upset you.

One thing that has helped me remain clear is this:

"Caring about someone is different than taking care of someone."

You care about your dad, your brother.  You hope they are happy and regret that they are unhappy. You can appreciate the good times or memories and grieve the painful loss of a good relationship with them now. And you can wish that everything was different, even though it isn't and will never be. That's caring *about* them.

Taking care *of* them is entirely different. It's something that caring people do for people who are too emotionally wounded to do for themselves and too dysfunctional to care about others. Taking care of them means sacrificing your own peace of mind, integrity, and core relationships to enable their harmful behavior. It's not grounded on responsibility, it's not sources from compassion ... And it doesn't, as you've come to realize, even "work".

Just as you and your wife are not responsible for their well-being, your h and b are not responsible for yours. If you feel upset about them, then it is up to you to care for yourself ... To take care of you and yours. Let them go and wish them well, and turn towards the family you have brought into the world to foster, protect and take care of.

You nailed it, Leonor!

Quote from: p123 on December 10, 2019, 11:21:09 AM

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM

QuoteSo I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

I'm not going to keep replying after this. I'm not sure if you're hearing what people are saying and this part 2 topic really doesn't need to be 5 pages of this back and forth. I hope you are hearing some of this, deep down though. For the sake of your wife and children, I hope you can hear what we are pointing out.

I know this stuff is terribly difficult. I grew up in a weird double narc parent, alcoholic, abusive, silent treatment, rage type house. I am trying to sort myself out from all the crap from my childhood and beyond. So I reply with understanding and compassion for you.

When I finally started coming Out of the FOG it's because I began getting angry at my Mom's shitty, ridiculous treatment of me, my dh and children. In my head, I had such rage against her. P123, we are adults for crying out loud. We shouldn't be treated like naughty children who didn't do exactly what mommy or in your case, daddy wanted us to do. How dare they still do this to us? Who the actual F**k does she think she is to treat me this way? I'm the only one who makes an effort to see her and I don't even want to. I have a lot of anger built up against her and it helps me be strong and to change how I react to her waify, sad little problems.

Do you have internal anger toward your dad's bad treatment of you and your family? Maybe you should. It's very helpful and the anger is directed at the person it should be going to. Your Dad. Not your brother or his wife. All this back and forth about brother and SIL is masking where the focus should be, your dad. Focus on untangling yourself from him. You can block your brother and SIL, again or get angry at him and tell him to NEVER contact you about this crap again. Get angry and stand up against his manipulations. Stand up for you, your wife and children. I have no idea what goes on in your day to day life but I hope you can fully disengage from the drama of the dirty 3 to focus on having the best life with your FOC. Stop using your wife and children as excuses you give to your dad. It's ok if the change and anger comes from you. Protect you and them from him.

The way I see it, getting angry and feeling like a fully grown adult helped me get determination to handle the process. My anger isn't loud and rage filled, it's quiet, strong and determined. I've always been the nice, meek, smiley little child who didn't cause problems. That's how my mom walked all over me. I repeat this to myself now, "I'm a fully grown adult and I'm not taking your mean, waify, angry treatment anymore" (actually I use much more colorful and forceful language in my head) It helps me keep my priorities straight when I start falling back into the good little girl mode.

I see that you've posted much of the same things in the Dads, Sibling, Elderly forum areas to get more input. I think all the detail about grocery shopping, taxis, pub, music festivals, SIL carer, wife at work and more are clouding the main problem. Your dad and how you deal with him.

And your last sentence above about your SIL visits dropping off after she discovered there isn't money to be had, this may not be the case at all! Do you know this for sure or are you assuming? Did brother or SIL tell you this directly? She may have gotten a good clear look at how your dad manipulates people and decided to forget the whole mess. Maybe she finally got angry and put her foot down.

Sunny Meadow is right. We appreciate what you're dealing with because hello, nobody would be here if we hadn't dealt with another version of the same.

The rules of this forum  are pretty clear that you're not supposed to start threads just for venting or as a personal diary.

You argue with literally every response to every comment. Your brother and his wife whom I have nothing but sympathy for by the way do not "affect your life". You choose to give a crap what they do and you cause it to affect your life.

We all initially came here because we were hoping we could improve the behavior of someone else but guess what. The only person you can control is yourself. That's the secret. That's the whole truth.

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 11, 2019, 09:30:16 AM

Quote from: p123 on December 10, 2019, 11:21:09 AM

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM

QuoteSo I found out, £83 a week, 35 hours minimum of caring. Told SIL this. Dropped it like a hot stone. Never seen someone backtrack so quick in their life. Of course, Dad got very upset about it all. She now visits way less than she used to because the "golden cow" is no longer there. I'm sure she was thinking £200-£300 a week, couple of shopping visits. kerching...... I was not impressed. Defied believe how thick she was telling Dad she was going to do this without even finding out the details.... So I do have a problem with her visits because I wonder whats her next angle?

This makes me uncomfortable. You describing her as thick isn't nice at all. Thick, really? You think she's thick and has an angle? If she decides to be his caregiver or not isn't your business. If I cared at all for my SIL I'd be telling her not to. Maybe she briefly thought about it and then your dad behaved like a horse's arse to her when she took him shopping. Maybe she debated it because she was getting pressure from your brother to do it. Maybe she's a genuinely nice woman who debated doing it then decided it's not worth it for that amount of money.

I totally agree but brother didn't see it this way. He thinks he can tell me what to do.

The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one.

Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him.

Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him.

I'll be honest, I have no problem with her never going to see Dad. She decided all this at least in conjunction with brother. It just rung alarm bells when the visits dropped off massively when it became apparent there was no money to be had.

I'm not going to keep replying after this. I'm not sure if you're hearing what people are saying and this part 2 topic really doesn't need to be 5 pages of this back and forth. I hope you are hearing some of this, deep down though. For the sake of your wife and children, I hope you can hear what we are pointing out.

I know this stuff is terribly difficult. I grew up in a weird double narc parent, alcoholic, abusive, silent treatment, rage type house. I am trying to sort myself out from all the crap from my childhood and beyond. So I reply with understanding and compassion for you.

When I finally started coming Out of the FOG it's because I began getting angry at my Mom's shitty, ridiculous treatment of me, my dh and children. In my head, I had such rage against her. P123, we are adults for crying out loud. We shouldn't be treated like naughty children who didn't do exactly what mommy or in your case, daddy wanted us to do. How dare they still do this to us? Who the actual F**k does she think she is to treat me this way? I'm the only one who makes an effort to see her and I don't even want to. I have a lot of anger built up against her and it helps me be strong and to change how I react to her waify, sad little problems.

Do you have internal anger toward your dad's bad treatment of you and your family? Maybe you should. It's very helpful and the anger is directed at the person it should be going to. Your Dad. Not your brother or his wife. All this back and forth about brother and SIL is masking where the focus should be, your dad. Focus on untangling yourself from him. You can block your brother and SIL, again or get angry at him and tell him to NEVER contact you about this crap again. Get angry and stand up against his manipulations. Stand up for you, your wife and children. I have no idea what goes on in your day to day life but I hope you can fully disengage from the drama of the dirty 3 to focus on having the best life with your FOC. Stop using your wife and children as excuses you give to your dad. It's ok if the change and anger comes from you. Protect you and them from him.

The way I see it, getting angry and feeling like a fully grown adult helped me get determination to handle the process. My anger isn't loud and rage filled, it's quiet, strong and determined. I've always been the nice, meek, smiley little child who didn't cause problems. That's how my mom walked all over me. I repeat this to myself now, "I'm a fully grown adult and I'm not taking your mean, waify, angry treatment anymore" (actually I use much more colorful and forceful language in my head) It helps me keep my priorities straight when I start falling back into the good little girl mode.

I see that you've posted much of the same things in the Dads, Sibling, Elderly forum areas to get more input. I think all the detail about grocery shopping, taxis, pub, music festivals, SIL carer, wife at work and more are clouding the main problem. Your dad and how you deal with him.

And your last sentence above about your SIL visits dropping off after she discovered there isn't money to be had, this may not be the case at all! Do you know this for sure or are you assuming? Did brother or SIL tell you this directly? She may have gotten a good clear look at how your dad manipulates people and decided to forget the whole mess. Maybe she finally got angry and put her foot down.

Yeh thanks. Make sense.....

Not quite sure why continuing threads is a problem though. Not as if its costs anyone any money (does it?) and no-one if forced to read but fair enough.

Quote from: p123 on December 11, 2019, 04:39:42 AM

Quote from: PeanutButter on December 10, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
123 you said:  "The SIL thing. Hmmm. She has previous with this - many, many broken promises to Dad. Many times, I've caught her and my brother lying to Dad and letting him down This just seemed to be another one."
But you lie to your dad. (You say you CANT tell him the truth) But you let your dad down when you dont do what he wants!
IME that is no different.
You said:  "Also, I'm wary because Dad tends to start giving out money (not huge amounts) when he gets what he wants. Two previous partners of my brothers have cashed in on this. Thus, I'm wary of new people doing things for him."
It is his money! If he is getting what he wants what is wrong with him spending the money? But thats irrelevant IMO since this was NOT your now SIL that did this!
You said:  "Yes my Dad is very difficult. BUT I don't want him to get fleeced. And I don't want him to get upset. The carer thing was a complete nightmare. He was SO upset that he couldn't have a carer after all. Also, it meant that, now it had been suggested, yes he did need a carer, so since SIL cant do it then you can all do it together. Made things a lot worse to be honest. I just didn't understand why she didn't work out the practicalities etc BEFORE saying anything to him."
IMO NONE of that makes SIL "thick" by any stretch of the imagination! She did nothing wrong by your own recounting of the events. But YOU are blaming HER for your father being like a toddler throwing a tantrum at you. TEXTBOOK triangulation and flying monkey scenario and you are falling for it hook line and sinker. Its your father who is responsible for his own upset. He is responsible for saying now he needs a carer. Your SIL IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! Nor is she responsible for the ''things made worse" for you. You are responsible for you putting up with your fathers worst. It is your choice to be enmeshed with him. IMO.

Yeh OK you're right..... Im beginning to realise the triangulation thing. Im washing my hands now and taking a step back.
There is a lot more to the story to be honest. As others have said, I cant change my Dad, my brother, or my SIL. They can all carry on now as far as I'm concerned - Im not interested in the dramas.
Maybe my problem is that I care too much about what happens with my Dad. This is stopping now.

Maybe, just maybe, and I dont know this but I am guessing based on all of what you say and IME, your 'care to much what happens with dad' is actually acted out towards others involved by 'trying to control them, their reactions, and their behavior', in an attempt to lower your anxiety that is rooted in the enmeshment with your dad and probably some false beliefs that you are responsible for your dad and alll that is to do with your dad. Maybe if you believe this then you also falsely believe that your brother is responsible for your dad. It sounds like your brother has this same false belief that he and you are responsible for your dad. The origin of this false belief that you both have is ..... wait for it.... YOUR DAD! He TRAINED you!
He is the one causing ALL of the crap you describe to us here on this forum. Your brother and sil are also dealing with your dads crap. Even if all of you were enabling dads narccississtic abuse, they can choose to stop even if you choose to continue. I think IME if you are not ready to 'drop the rope' that is ok. IMO accept that about yourself. IMO also accept that brother and sil may choose how much they can/want to do and how much contact they can/want to expose themselves to. My advice to all of you would be to limit contact and set boundaries.

The best thing to do out of all of this is....look to you and yours.

Keep yourself out of their business...it upsets you...you do what you want to do, let them all be...try to stop thinking about what everyone else does/says and try to stop being outraged at their behaviours.

Try to stop this circular thinking (I'm telling myself this while I'm writing it!) you are going round and round with this.

We all need validation from time to time and here we can talk about most things and gain some understanding.

From all the posts on this topic, I can see that most of the replies are telling you the same.

I wish you well for the holidays and hope you can step back from this X

Quote from: p123 on December 11, 2019, 10:24:19 AM

Quote from: Fiasco on December 11, 2019, 09:52:33 AM
The rules of this forum  are pretty clear that you're not supposed to start threads just for venting or as a personal diary.

Hmm. We'd have a pretty quiet forum. One discussion and out.

Actually I've found the forum to be quite lively and responsive. We share and learn so much from each other's experiences and questions. It's a nice change from our personality disordered parents/siblings/spouses, BPDm in my case, who has no interest in any topic outside herself.

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM
...Seems all this extra discussion of brother, SIL, and dad is a distraction beyond the original question. What to do about Xmas. Somewhere in the last thread of Xmas is coming, I believe you decided you aren't having Dad to your house. Your wife doesn't want him and you don't either. That's great! Don't have him, good boundary setting by you. All this other discussion doesn't really matter then. 

I have to agree with SunnyMeadow that all of the discussion about stuff other than your dad is a distraction.

You have stated in past posts that you are afraid of your father's reactions, that you don't want to upset him.  This is the inner child in you talking.  You may be "self-sabotaging" by creating distractions that reinforce your inaction.  Sure, you don't have to face your fear, but the end result is that nothing much is going to change regarding you re-claiming your life.

Maybe work toward being more assertive here regarding the Xmas situation.  Face your fear square on.  Make your decision based on what is right-- protecting you and your family from your abusive dad-- rather than what is easy-- i.e., going along to get along with your dad. 

Part of being assertive is being clear what is reasonable and acceptable to you, and taking responsibility for your choice (and your right) to not have your dad over for Xmas.

So my advice is to--

*Stick to your decision not to have your dad over at Xmas.

*Repeat your boundary as many times as it takes, and if your dad still refuses to acknowledge it, or plays the victim, end the discussion with "I've made my decision and I have nothing more to say about it."

*Work toward telling your dad that "It's not going to work you coming over this Christmas" (Period!) rather than "I can't manage it this year because my wife if working."  Maybe you can't do that with the Xmas situation, since you've already put out there your wife is working, but you will have many, many more opportunities to assert your boundaries.  Standing up for yourself with no apology or excuses will go a long way toward boosting your self-esteem.

*Follow through on your decision.  Don't JADE.  Don't justify, argue, defend or explain your decision to your dad or your brother/SIL.

*I know I and others have said this, but if your dad pulls out all the stops and pulls a medical emergency, let the professionals handle it and stay out of it.

The bottom line here is that you set a boundary about the betting shop and hell didn't freeze over.  Build on the confidence you acquired from that incident and use it to confront the Xmas situation head on. 

That's really all the advice I can give you, p123.  Know that we are all here to support you, and you can do this!

P123, have you thought about various scenarios that may happen on or right before Christmas and your plan to deal with them if (WHEN) they come up?

It will be hard to come up with a plan cold when it's Christmas morning and you get a call from the hospital, or your father reports he smells leaking gas, or whatever. You'll want to draw your lines out ahead of time as much as possible.

Will you take your phone off the hook/shut it off for the day? Block your father and brother's calls for the day? Are you emotionally prepared for a call from the hospital, and emotionally prepared to not come to his "rescue"? And emotionally prepared to let it go and focus back on your family for the day?

Honestly, putting myself in your shoes, I think I'd be able to cope better with the phone OFF starting Christmas Eve. Sure, you'll wonder throughout the day if he called or what is going on, but you can keep reassuring yourself that he's fine, and any manipulative hijinks he may be up to are his problem and his choice - than to hear of some "emergency," and spend the day trying to be present for your family while thinking about the upsetting phone call you had and the "emergency" you said no to, and all the little and big digs at you.

Remember, whatever happens is manufactured - he has a long history backing that up. So it's his choice, he can play his game alone. You're not a bad son for not making your life all about him. He's a bad father for demanding that of you.

And I do feel for the little boy in p123, too, who just wants a dad who loves him and feels proud of him and wants to protect him.

Perhaps part of the resistance you're feeling to all of the responses here is a way to avoid the terrific pain and anguish of the fact that you don't feel loved by your dad, and the little boy inside is just so scared that if he does let go, if he does stop the engagement and worry and arguing, then his dad will abandon him and he'll be left all alone. So the little p123 will argue, and vent, and post a lot, because at least it's ... something. It's a way of staying connected to his dad.

That is just so, so sad. I have a bunch of little boys and their father is Mr Everything to them. He is their anchor and their lighthouse, and they would be devastated and lost and panicked if he were to withdraw or attack or push them away.

The little p123 deserves, like every child deserves, the bestest dad in the whole world. It's normal for him to feel panic that his dad is cruel *and* hope that maybe, just maybe, he will change.

You can be a father now, not just to your own children, but to little p123. In fact, you can't be present fully as an adult father to your own children if little p123 is running the show. Do you have a picture of yourself when you were a little kid? Maybe around a time you were feeling scared, or disappointed. Or even when you were around the age your own children are now. What would you, as an adult, say to him? What is it he really needs to hear? What would he like his dad to say to.him? Can you say that to him? What happens inside?

That's a tough exercise and you may be surprised at the feelings that come up, so if you think you'd like to try it make sure you have lots of time and good support. But I think that might bring some true clarity and relief for you.

Quote from: illogical on December 11, 2019, 03:38:56 PM

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on December 10, 2019, 09:15:28 AM
...Seems all this extra discussion of brother, SIL, and dad is a distraction beyond the original question. What to do about Xmas. Somewhere in the last thread of Xmas is coming, I believe you decided you aren't having Dad to your house. Your wife doesn't want him and you don't either. That's great! Don't have him, good boundary setting by you. All this other discussion doesn't really matter then. 

I have to agree with SunnyMeadow that all of the discussion about stuff other than your dad is a distraction.

You have stated in past posts that you are afraid of your father's reactions, that you don't want to upset him.  This is the inner child in you talking.  You may be "self-sabotaging" by creating distractions that reinforce your inaction.  Sure, you don't have to face your fear, but the end result is that nothing much is going to change regarding you re-claiming your life.

Maybe work toward being more assertive here regarding the Xmas situation.  Face your fear square on.  Make your decision based on what is right-- protecting you and your family from your abusive dad-- rather than what is easy-- i.e., going along to get along with your dad. 

Part of being assertive is being clear what is reasonable and acceptable to you, and taking responsibility for your choice (and your right) to not have your dad over for Xmas.

So my advice is to--

*Stick to your decision not to have your dad over at Xmas.

*Repeat your boundary as many times as it takes, and if your dad still refuses to acknowledge it, or plays the victim, end the discussion with "I've made my decision and I have nothing more to say about it."

*Work toward telling your dad that "It's not going to work you coming over this Christmas" (Period!) rather than "I can't manage it this year because my wife if working."  Maybe you can't do that with the Xmas situation, since you've already put out there your wife is working, but you will have many, many more opportunities to assert your boundaries.  Standing up for yourself with no apology or excuses will go a long way toward boosting your self-esteem.

*Follow through on your decision.  Don't JADE.  Don't justify, argue, defend or explain your decision to your dad or your brother/SIL.

*I know I and others have said this, but if your dad pulls out all the stops and pulls a medical emergency, let the professionals handle it and stay out of it.

The bottom line here is that you set a boundary about the betting shop and hell didn't freeze over.  Build on the confidence you acquired from that incident and use it to confront the Xmas situation head on. 

That's really all the advice I can give you, p123.  Know that we are all here to support you, and you can do this!

Well, I'm hoping Xmas is sorted to be honest. Easier than I thought it would be. Dad even talked last night about how hes ordered "meals on wheels".

I am sort of wondering why its gone so quiet and waiting for it all to erupt. I did honestly expect it all to go off when brother found out I wasnt having Dad Xmas day but it hasn't. Hes not the sort to let things go. I'd be amazed if nothing kicks off.

BUT, I'm ignoring it all. Xmas day sorted. Let them get on with it.

A minor battle is boxing day. There is NOONE at my house that day. (OK apart from my teenager but he will be on his pc playing games and wont speak). Wife is working, daugter will be with gran down her uncles. Pointless me driving 50 miles round trip TWICE to bring him to my house and then have to cook food. POINTLESS.

I fully expect he will INSIST because, in his head, hes got to visit at least once over Xmas. I've got a local restaurant lined up. Much better option. He wont like  the idea. Not sure how far to push it? Xmas day battle one, let this go, let him come and we'll both sit on the settee and no-one else there while I cook some random meal. (It wont be xmas dinner!)

Boxing Day if you want to take him out to lunch that's fine. No need to have him over. If he doesn't want to go out to lunch so be it. His choice. Like I said before, you can't give them options. You say this is what I can do and that's it. You have a right to decide who steps foot in your home.

Previous poster referred to inner child work and it's something I've worked on in therapy, as well as working through the anger. Are you in therapy? If not I suggest giving it a try. It's helped me unlock a lot of things about myself. Mainly that I was groomed to be codependent  and surprise it's not my job to fix others or make them happy EVEN IF THEY THINK IT IS. Not my job. Never was. Your dad can be upset and that's not on you. You have fear about him getting upset and I get that because I had the same fear. Quite frankly I'm realizing now I had been terrified of my grandmother for a very long time. She controlled me through fear, fear of upsetting her, Fear of how she'll react if I said NO.  The fear is part of the fog. Fear, obligation, guilt. 
I think you're at a turning point here but you have to stop worrying about him being upset, and not liking your choices. He can be upset. He really can. It's not your job to make him happy. It takes great effort to let that sink in.

Hi there - popping in to direct us all back to the guidelines regarding long threads and some info about venting:

"Long threads are difficult for readers to follow and will be locked at 5 pages."

Going forward for anyone who has a question about a moderating decision - such as a thread having been locked for length:

"If you have a question or concern about a moderating decision or how the board is run you can send a Personal Message to one of the Moderating & Admin Team or ask about it on our Questions Forum.  Do not use the original thread or any other forum to question or debate moderating decisions as this is a further distraction from the original thread topic." 

Guidelines found here: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=30.0

And another helpful link to a discussion around venting can be found here:
https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=61523.0

Quote from: p123 on December 12, 2019, 04:13:56 AM
...Well, I'm hoping Xmas is sorted to be honest. Easier than I thought it would be. Dad even talked last night about how hes ordered "meals on wheels".

I am sort of wondering why its gone so quiet and waiting for it all to erupt. I did honestly expect it all to go off when brother found out I wasnt having Dad Xmas day but it hasn't. Hes not the sort to let things go. I'd be amazed if nothing kicks off.

BUT, I'm ignoring it all. Xmas day sorted. Let them get on with it.

A minor battle is boxing day. There is NOONE at my house that day. (OK apart from my teenager but he will be on his pc playing games and wont speak). Wife is working, daugter will be with gran down her uncles. Pointless me driving 50 miles round trip TWICE to bring him to my house and then have to cook food. POINTLESS.

I fully expect he will INSIST because, in his head, hes got to visit at least once over Xmas. I've got a local restaurant lined up. Much better option. He wont like  the idea. Not sure how far to push it? Xmas day battle one, let this go, let him come and we'll both sit on the settee and no-one else there while I cook some random meal. (It wont be xmas dinner!)

Meals on wheels?  Really?  That's great!  Sounds like you have made some real progress here.   :yes:

I understand your need to "pick your battles" on Boxing Day.  I think picking your battles is very important with a N, because otherwise you will find yourself in constant conflict.

On the other hand, I think Adrianna has a good point about giving your dad no options.  You have offered a reasonable alternative to majorly inconveniencing yourself by hauling him to your place on Boxing Day-- take him to a restaurant nearby.  IMO, that accomplishes the goal-- spending time with your dad.  You mentioned cooking a "random meal" at home, if you brought him there.  Wouldn't it be better for both of you to go to a restaurant and you not have the bother of cooking him a meal he likely won't appreciate anyway?  I know it got to the point with my NM that it didn't matter what I did, it wasn't going to ever be good enough.

So I would follow through with your plan to take your dad to a restaurant.  It's still a hassle for you, but not near the inconvenience of driving him to your house and then back again, and cooking him a meal and sitting in silence with nothing much to say, as you attempt to "entertain" him.  That brings back so many (bad) memories of me cooking Christmas dinner for my NM, taking it to her house, serving it up on fine china, waiting on her like a galley slave, only to have her pooh-pooh my efforts-- "Too much pepper on the leek-potato soup" and "I don't really like the turkey, it's too dry!"  and "I never cared much for peppermint ice cream"  Jeez Louise.  Get me the f**k out of here.

Yay, Meals on Wheels!  8-)

I agree - stick to your guns about the restaurant on Boxing Day, and offer no options - it's either a restaurant or nothing and if he chooses nothing, you'd be best to leave and go home.   :ninja:

IME, that's the only thing that works in trying to manage any sort of relationship.  This is what I'm willing to do, period.  Take it or leave it - there are no other options and no bargains or compromises to be struck.  :yes:

If I were you - and I was once   :wave: - I'd have responses planned for all "emergencies" that crop up on Christmas - like being summoned to take him to the ER, or getting a call that he's in the ER, come now.

If summoned - tell him to call an ambulance.  If he doesn't *want* to, tell him to call an ambulance.  If he says he wants you to drive, hang up and call an ambulance FOR him.  :ninja:

If you get a call saying he's at the ER or in the hospital - stay home.  You'll only be in the way, and they'll probably be running tests, or otherwise trying to figure out what's wrong with him - or if he's faking for attention.   :roll:

If he's admitted, don't visit.  He may demand you visit - ignore him.  You're an adult - you don't have to listen to demands made by others.

Don't drive him home - he can take a cab or shuttle.  He won't want to, to save money, but tough.  You have other things you need to be doing other than saving him a couple of quid!  :wacko:

If you decide to start the New Year out right with more boundaries, like having his shopping delivered from the store near him, remember:  don't offer him a choice.  Just DO it.     :yes: :ninja:

If he doesn't open the door, they'll just take the food back to the store and probably credit the account - and he'll have nobody to blame but himself if he runs out.

If he runs out of food and calls you - after refusing a delivery - do nothing but remind him he refused delivery of groceries, so he'll have to come up with his own solution.  If he can't or won't, tell him you'll call the store and have  groceries delivered, but that's all you can do - if he refuses, or doesn't like that,  say, "Well, I really can't help you." - and hang up.  :ninja: :thumbup:

I  think that would be a fantastic boundary to start the New Year with - but only you can make it so.  :)

:hug:

Yay restuarant boxing day it is!

I'm getting good now. Told him there was no-one at my house so there was no point in me driving a 50 mile round trip. He wasn't happy I could see.

Hes moaned about the cost (I said I'm paying and anyway its £25 for three courses which is good!). He moaned then that I should invite my teenage son too.
I thought here we go, his views are legendary. Basically, had another dig for leaving him home.

Sure I've mentioned before, 16 year old son is the the ASD spectrum. Hes NOT going to come for a meal with me and his grandfather. Hes happier at home on this PC so why force him? Dad never listens and his own opinions here.

BUT, bottom line its sorted.

There's an elephant in the room though that I see hes not going to let go - its going to come "I've not see you're wife at all this this year" or "I've not been to your house this year". At the very least he'd better get used to not seeing my wife for a bit..... BUT on step at a time. We'll see when that one pops up!

Dad did try to tell me brother is away Xmas Day. Not interested in hearing it. I've got a text from November telling me his wife was in the travel agent and booking that day, so hes forgotten that lie. Latest apparently is hes driving to a friends the other side of the country (This is wales remembers - its only 200 miles from north to south) and then driving home boxing day. This is another fabrication more than likely.
But crack on with it, if he wants to lie and Dad wants to believe it then I'm stepping back. Not my circus not my monkeys....

Quote from: p123 on December 15, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
BUT, bottom line its sorted.
Dad did try to tell me brother is away Xmas Day. Not interested in hearing it. I've got a text from November telling me his wife was in the travel agent and booking that day, so hes forgotten that lie. Latest apparently is hes driving to a friends the other side of the country (This is wales remembers - its only 200 miles from north to south) and then driving home boxing day. This is another fabrication more than likely.
But crack on with it, if he wants to lie and Dad wants to believe it then I'm stepping back. Not my circus not my monkeys....

Great job! You should be proud of yourself!
Again about your brother lying to dad ime if you lie to dad too in fact you tell a lie about the same thing 'what you and wife are doing for xmas day' can you see it is probably for the same reason 'nobody wants to be with dad for xmas but nobody wants to deal with his toddler tantrum if he knew the truth'.
Imo why is it you can accept the necessity of your lies to dad (and dad believes your lies too) but you cannot accept your brother is doing the same?
I doubt anyone on this forum will judge you or your brother harshly for lying to get out of dealing with a pd person!
Your brother is in the same boat as you but IMO you have been 'trained' to seperate from him instead of connect with him.
That is what alot of us experienced: our pd parents working their children against each other. Its another example dysfunctional, abusive, manipulative behavior from our pd parents.
So which one of these statements complete the sentence truthfully:
Dad doesnt have any plans for xmas day because __________?___________
1) brother lied about what he and wife are doing so they wont have to spend xmas day being miserable with him
2) p123 lied about what he and wife are doing so they wont have to spend xmas day being miserable with him
3) dad has treated his sons and their families so poorly that this xmas day he will finally reap what he has sown and neither of his sons will allow him access to themselves or their families!
IMO and IME it is #3).
Dad doesnt have plans for xmas day because he has treated his sons and their families so poorly that this xmas day he will finally and rightfully reap what he has sown and neither you or your brother will allow him access to you or your families!

Quote from: PeanutButter on December 16, 2019, 05:26:41 AM

Quote from: p123 on December 15, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
BUT, bottom line its sorted.
Dad did try to tell me brother is away Xmas Day. Not interested in hearing it. I've got a text from November telling me his wife was in the travel agent and booking that day, so hes forgotten that lie. Latest apparently is hes driving to a friends the other side of the country (This is wales remembers - its only 200 miles from north to south) and then driving home boxing day. This is another fabrication more than likely.
But crack on with it, if he wants to lie and Dad wants to believe it then I'm stepping back. Not my circus not my monkeys....

Great job! You should be proud of yourself!
Again about your brother lying to dad ime if you lie to dad too in fact you tell a lie about the same thing 'what you and wife are doing for xmas day' can you see it is probably for the same reason 'nobody wants to be with dad for xmas but nobody wants to deal with his toddler tantrum if he knew the truth'.
Imo why is it you can accept the necessity of your lies to dad (and dad believes your lies too) but you cannot accept your brother is doing the same?
I doubt anyone on this forum will judge you or your brother harshly for lying to get out of dealing with a pd person!
Your brother is in the same boat as you but IMO you have been 'trained' to seperate from him instead of connect with him.
That is what alot of us experienced: our pd parents working their children against each other. Its another example dysfunctional, abusive, manipulative behavior from our pd parents.
So which one of these statements complete the sentence truthfully:
Dad doesnt have any plans for xmas day because __________?___________
1) brother lied about what he and wife are doing so they wont have to spend xmas day being miserable with him
2) p123 lied about what he and wife are doing so they wont have to spend xmas day being miserable with him
3) dad has treated his sons and their families so poorly that this xmas day he will finally reap what he has sown and neither of his sons will allow him access to themselves or their families!
IMO and IME it is #3).
Dad doesnt have plans for xmas day because he has treated his sons and their families so poorly that this xmas day he will finally and rightfully reap what he has sown and neither you or your brother will allow him access to you or your families!

Ha ha I'd say all three!
I know what you mean. Dad pretty much deserves all he gets to be honest. Sometimes its best not to tell him the truth.

Yes brother is in the same boat. I have no issue with brother telling Dad what he wants. Up to him. Do what you want. He texts me and says his wife cant visit Dad any more because of her own Dad. Yeh fair enough good plan, as we all do have other family. Dont need to make excuses to me.

BUT, hes lied and then dropped me in it. Leave me out of it.

The issue I had was the fbook message a few months ago telling me "heads up" he'd booked a holiday and I'd "have to have Dad over xmas day".  Then he told Dad the same that "he could go to mine". Hang on now.
Hes done it a few times with these "heads up" messages. I had one recently saying he wasn't going to Dads every Saturday anymore so I'd have to arrange it with my wife and I to take turns. No way. Again he told Dad the new arrangements.

I've had all sorts of abuse off him in the past as has my wife telling me how selfish I am. Blocked him now after he refused to leave my wife out of it. Hes got very strong views that I don't treat Dad right.  Thats what annoys me - he makes out hes perfect, drops me in it, abuses me. Leave me out of it.

Quote from: illogical on December 13, 2019, 05:41:33 PM

Quote from: p123 on December 12, 2019, 04:13:56 AM
...Well, I'm hoping Xmas is sorted to be honest. Easier than I thought it would be. Dad even talked last night about how hes ordered "meals on wheels".

I am sort of wondering why its gone so quiet and waiting for it all to erupt. I did honestly expect it all to go off when brother found out I wasnt having Dad Xmas day but it hasn't. Hes not the sort to let things go. I'd be amazed if nothing kicks off.

BUT, I'm ignoring it all. Xmas day sorted. Let them get on with it.

A minor battle is boxing day. There is NOONE at my house that day. (OK apart from my teenager but he will be on his pc playing games and wont speak). Wife is working, daugter will be with gran down her uncles. Pointless me driving 50 miles round trip TWICE to bring him to my house and then have to cook food. POINTLESS.

I fully expect he will INSIST because, in his head, hes got to visit at least once over Xmas. I've got a local restaurant lined up. Much better option. He wont like  the idea. Not sure how far to push it? Xmas day battle one, let this go, let him come and we'll both sit on the settee and no-one else there while I cook some random meal. (It wont be xmas dinner!)

Meals on wheels?  Really?  That's great!  Sounds like you have made some real progress here.   :yes:

I understand your need to "pick your battles" on Boxing Day.  I think picking your battles is very important with a N, because otherwise you will find yourself in constant conflict.

On the other hand, I think Adrianna has a good point about giving your dad no options.  You have offered a reasonable alternative to majorly inconveniencing yourself by hauling him to your place on Boxing Day-- take him to a restaurant nearby.  IMO, that accomplishes the goal-- spending time with your dad.  You mentioned cooking a "random meal" at home, if you brought him there.  Wouldn't it be better for both of you to go to a restaurant and you not have the bother of cooking him a meal he likely won't appreciate anyway?  I know it got to the point with my NM that it didn't matter what I did, it wasn't going to ever be good enough.

So I would follow through with your plan to take your dad to a restaurant.  It's still a hassle for you, but not near the inconvenience of driving him to your house and then back again, and cooking him a meal and sitting in silence with nothing much to say, as you attempt to "entertain" him.  That brings back so many (bad) memories of me cooking Christmas dinner for my NM, taking it to her house, serving it up on fine china, waiting on her like a galley slave, only to have her pooh-pooh my efforts-- "Too much pepper on the leek-potato soup" and "I don't really like the turkey, it's too dry!"  and "I never cared much for peppermint ice cream"  Jeez Louise.  Get me the f**k out of here.

Of course. Its like a box ticking exercise with him sometimes.

1. Visited p123s home.
2. P123s wife served me dinner.
3. I went to someones house over xmas.

Just for the sake of it....

Your father's insistence on coming to your house reminds me of my father. He is in assisted living in PA and I live in NJ.  When he was in better shape he would go out to dinner with us for birthdays. I would pick a place near his AL so I wouldn't have to drive so much.  Every time he would insist we should go to a restaurant in NJ not PA but he couldn't tell me why. (FYI since I was paying he did not get to choose the restaurant for someone else's birthday dinner).  I knew he just wanted to extend his time out. Did not care how much drive time or extra work  it was for me. Your father wants to be out for as long as possible. Going to your home could be hours....going to a restaurant is a finite amount of time.  Personally if he gripes as you are dropping him off I would think it would be the perfect time to tell him the truth....no one wanted to have him over because they are tired of him ruining the day.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on December 13, 2019, 11:40:13 PM
Yay, Meals on Wheels!  8-)

I agree - stick to your guns about the restaurant on Boxing Day, and offer no options - it's either a restaurant or nothing and if he chooses nothing, you'd be best to leave and go home.   :ninja:

IME, that's the only thing that works in trying to manage any sort of relationship.  This is what I'm willing to do, period.  Take it or leave it - there are no other options and no bargains or compromises to be struck.  :yes:

If I were you - and I was once   :wave: - I'd have responses planned for all "emergencies" that crop up on Christmas - like being summoned to take him to the ER, or getting a call that he's in the ER, come now.

If summoned - tell him to call an ambulance.  If he doesn't *want* to, tell him to call an ambulance.  If he says he wants you to drive, hang up and call an ambulance FOR him.  :ninja:

If you get a call saying he's at the ER or in the hospital - stay home.  You'll only be in the way, and they'll probably be running tests, or otherwise trying to figure out what's wrong with him - or if he's faking for attention.   :roll:

If he's admitted, don't visit.  He may demand you visit - ignore him.  You're an adult - you don't have to listen to demands made by others.

Don't drive him home - he can take a cab or shuttle.  He won't want to, to save money, but tough.  You have other things you need to be doing other than saving him a couple of quid!  :wacko:

If you decide to start the New Year out right with more boundaries, like having his shopping delivered from the store near him, remember:  don't offer him a choice.  Just DO it.     :yes: :ninja:

If he doesn't open the door, they'll just take the food back to the store and probably credit the account - and he'll have nobody to blame but himself if he runs out.

If he runs out of food and calls you - after refusing a delivery - do nothing but remind him he refused delivery of groceries, so he'll have to come up with his own solution.  If he can't or won't, tell him you'll call the store and have  groceries delivered, but that's all you can do - if he refuses, or doesn't like that,  say, "Well, I really can't help you." - and hang up.  :ninja: :thumbup:

I  think that would be a fantastic boundary to start the New Year with - but only you can make it so.  :)

:hug:

Yes good idea. New year and all that!

I have an emergency plan for xmas. Pretty easy "I've had a glass of wine now so can't drive".

Quote from: p123 on December 15, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
...There's an elephant in the room though that I see hes not going to let go - its going to come "I've not see you're wife at all this this year" or "I've not been to your house this year". At the very least he'd better get used to not seeing my wife for a bit..... BUT on step at a time. We'll see when that one pops up!

Regarding these statements-- "I've not seen your wife at all this year" or "I've not been to your house this year"-- they are passive-aggressive (PA) digs.  And also they are statements, not questions. 

My NM was the Queen of PA Jabs.  These statements were designed to goad me into a JADE response. 

When your dad says something like that, resist the urge to respond.  As I said, it's a statement, not a question.  The reason PA people phrase it that way, is that they are afraid of asking a direct question because they don't want a rejection.  So in your case, your dad could ask "Why hasn't your wife been to my house this year?"  but he risks you giving him a negative response, like "Because she doesn't want to take any more of your abuse."  So by saying "I've not seen your wife at all this year" he is hoping he will guilt you into saying something like "She's been busy this holiday, but maybe she can find some time after the first of the year".  I know it's a subtle difference, but by phrasing his question like a statement, he can play The Guilt Card-- pretend not to understand why your wife hasn't come to visit and look all sad and forlorn and hope The Guilt Card gets him the response he wants.

My NM loved to make these type statements around the holidays or her birthday.  If I dared to ask what she wanted for Christmas, she would say "All I want is a visit" in the most waify, orphany voice imaginable.  But she would never come out and ask me "Why don't you visit me more often?"  Because that would likely result in me saying "I visit as often as I can" and that would be the end of that.  Playing the guilt card was much more effective in trying to manipulate me into coming over more.

So my advice to you is to resist responding to any and all statements made by your dad.  If it's not a question, keep silent, and then switch the topic of conversation to something else, preferably something light and innocent-- like shopping or sports or the weather. You could offer a "Hmm" or "Well" or some other nebulous remark, but don't let him goad you into offering excuses for your wife not visiting.  He knows this is a sore spot for you-- so he wants to press you on this, hoping he will get you angry and he can offload his resentment for your boundary setting onto you.   :yes:

Quote from: illogical on December 16, 2019, 08:37:30 AM

Quote from: p123 on December 15, 2019, 04:09:00 PM
...There's an elephant in the room though that I see hes not going to let go - its going to come "I've not see you're wife at all this this year" or "I've not been to your house this year". At the very least he'd better get used to not seeing my wife for a bit..... BUT on step at a time. We'll see when that one pops up!

Regarding these statements-- "I've not seen your wife at all this year" or "I've not been to your house this year"-- they are passive-aggressive (PA) digs.  And also they are statements, not questions. 

My NM was the Queen of PA Jabs.  These statements were designed to goad me into a JADE response. 

When your dad says something like that, resist the urge to respond.  As I said, it's a statement, not a question.  The reason PA people phrase it that way, is that they are afraid of asking a direct question because they don't want a rejection.  So in your case, your dad could ask "Why hasn't your wife been to my house this year?"  but he risks you giving him a negative response, like "Because she doesn't want to take any more of your abuse."  So by saying "I've not seen your wife at all this year" he is hoping he will guilt you into saying something like "She's been busy this holiday, but maybe she can find some time after the first of the year".  I know it's a subtle difference, but by phrasing his question like a statement, he can play The Guilt Card-- pretend not to understand why your wife hasn't come to visit and look all sad and forlorn and hope The Guilt Card gets him the response he wants.

My NM loved to make these type statements around the holidays or her birthday.  If I dared to ask what she wanted for Christmas, she would say "All I want is a visit" in the most waify, orphany voice imaginable.  But she would never come out and ask me "Why don't you visit me more often?"  Because that would likely result in me saying "I visit as often as I can" and that would be the end of that.  Playing the guilt card was much more effective in trying to manipulate me into coming over more.

So my advice to you is to resist responding to any and all statements made by your dad.  If it's not a question, keep silent, and then switch the topic of conversation to something else, preferably something light and innocent-- like shopping or sports or the weather. You could offer a "Hmm" or "Well" or some other nebulous remark, but don't let him goad you into offering excuses for your wife not visiting.  He knows this is a sore spot for you-- so he wants to press you on this, hoping he will get you angry and he can offload his resentment for your boundary setting onto you.   :yes:

Oh yes I know he does it all the time. Its his way of saying "this is what should happen in my head why hasn't it".

Remeber his birthday? For weeks he went on "so you're wife hasn't had time to phone me to wish me happy birthday then". Jeez it went on.

I just shrugged mostly. At the end when he realised it wasnt going to work he said "Oh well, up to her. But its OK I don't blame you". I nearly exploded to be honest - maybe I should have. It was like saying "you're wife is rude to me but its OK, I know you're not behind this!".

Update: Hes admitted his cousin invited him to his house (with his grown up children) for Xmas dinner. He said no. Thats Dad all over - turn down offers then moan he never goes out.

To be honest, I don't know them that well (I know his cousin well) but I don't think they realise how lucky an escape they've had lol. He'd go this one year and then he'd expect an invite every year. Based on how he behaves I think they may have regretted starting it.

Quote from: p123 on December 16, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Update: Hes admitted his cousin invited him to his house (with his grown up children) for Xmas dinner. He said no. Thats Dad all over - turn down offers then moan he never goes out.

To be honest, I don't know them that well (I know his cousin well) but I don't think they realise how lucky an escape they've had lol. He'd go this one year and then he'd expect an invite every year. Based on how he behaves I think they may have regretted starting it.

Validated again.  At least now when he brings up being alone on Xmas you can point out he was invited somewhere he just chose not to go.

Quote from: lkdrymom on December 17, 2019, 03:06:09 PM

Quote from: p123 on December 16, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Update: Hes admitted his cousin invited him to his house (with his grown up children) for Xmas dinner. He said no. Thats Dad all over - turn down offers then moan he never goes out.

To be honest, I don't know them that well (I know his cousin well) but I don't think they realise how lucky an escape they've had lol. He'd go this one year and then he'd expect an invite every year. Based on how he behaves I think they may have regretted starting it.

Validated again.  At least now when he brings up being alone on Xmas you can point out he was invited somewhere he just chose not to go.

Oh yes. Happens all the time. I've noticed with EVERYONE if you offer he says no. Its got to be his idea.

Last summer I invited him out one Sunday for lunch and to watch the cricket (which he likes). He made every excuse under the sun and said no. OK up to you.
Then had a dig that he hadnt been out. He then expected me to cancel my plans to watch the cricket and visit him instead. I said NO DAD I told you I was going to the cricket and did invite you and I can't do both. So I went, he stayed home and watched the game on TV. Crazy or what?

Well I was waiting and slower than expected it seems my dear brother has been trying to get in touch with me. I've blocked his number and on facebook so good luck with that one.

So instead he asked Dad to give me a message. Nice one that. Apparently, hes told Dad to tell me that hes disgusted that I'm leaving Dad all on his own on Xmas Day, that I should TELL my wife she needs to sort her work shifts to accommodate him. And I should do this because he told me months ago he as away over xmas (the "booked" holiday that wasn't) so I knew about this. Can't help thinking - if your so concerned about Dad why book a holiday at that time?

Not going to rise to it. His opinion. Not interested. That's the end of it. Dad is badgering now for me to contact him to "sort it all out". (Brother knew full well this would be Dads reaction!). Ignoring him for now.

As you know, I've decided, from now on I'm not justifying to anyone. He does what he wants for Dad, and I'll do the same. He has ideas I have mine. I am not interested in his excuses, reasons or opinions. Neither am I particularly interested in any sort of contact with brother to be honest.

Good idea?

Excellent idea, I think.

You know in your heart that it is...
I'm sending you some good vibes over the ether...have a stress and guilt- free holiday with those you love and who love you back XX

This is the time when it's painful and it's hard not to get sucked back into the narrative. The hardest time is when they stop hinting and digging and they they begin to openly and cruelly criticise you. It's also the best time-masks slip and reveal, and you know that you are in the right path. 
The less you react, the freer you'll become.

While I'm not at all suggesting your brother DIDN'T say these things, you also got the message from him via Dad. So I'm sure that was the gist of the message but don't forget, Dad likely slipped his own messages in there too. And Dad is the one who got brother worked up about it in the first place.

Good call on ignoring it all.

Perhaps you'll feel a switch flipped at some point, when it stops being guilt-inducing and gut-wrenching and starts becoming just plain absurd. Perhaps you'll start feeling angry about it. Because it IS absurd and they have NO right.

Don't react.  If your father brings it up again. change the subject immediately.  Pretend like he didn't even say anything.

Yes your dad could well have put a spin on it- that's a good point Numblotus has brought up.
Thank you- For me this relates to something my dad told me my brother said recently about a conversation we'd had, and which wasn't quite what happened.
Now I'm wondering which PD out of the two of them, actually put the spin on!
Lol.
Fun and games of the PD world.  :roll:
I ignored it and it fell flat anyway.
It does work, to ignore it, or give a medium chill answer then move on. It can feel a bit meh 😑 at first, because we are so used to being drawn into the drama, the circular arguments that at least give us some form of illusion of a bond, but it only feeds them their supply ( and never, EVER feeds us the so sought- after approval!). After a while of using the technique it can become quite satisfying to watch the firework sputter and go out.
They want the Big Bang of course, and will keep trying for it.
Changing the subject? Powerful. I've done this to dad a few times now. His look of incredulity wasn't lost on me. It disallows their dominance of the talk. Every time we grab the narrative from them and turn it another way we reinforce our individuality.
It holds back the bombardment of negativity and doom they enjoy so much- and it wrong foots them into a kind of shocked passivity.
At least for a while! 

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 18, 2019, 11:35:02 AM
While I'm not at all suggesting your brother DIDN'T say these things, you also got the message from him via Dad. So I'm sure that was the gist of the message but don't forget, Dad likely slipped his own messages in there too. And Dad is the one who got brother worked up about it in the first place.

Good call on ignoring it all.

Perhaps you'll feel a switch flipped at some point, when it stops being guilt-inducing and gut-wrenching and starts becoming just plain absurd. Perhaps you'll start feeling angry about it. Because it IS absurd and they have NO right.

Hmmm yes didnt think of that......

I just thought Dad didn't want us arguing to be honest but I can see how he'd benefit by brother being able to get me back in line. Hes proved in the past that all hes concerned about is my fitness to serve him.

Every single time I speak to him now he asks me how my back is. It was bad a few weeks ago not so much at the moment. Its becoming obvious that his concern is only that I'm fit to drive over to him. Nothing else really. I've got to remember to keep saying "oh just the same".

Quote from: nanotech on December 18, 2019, 07:02:45 PM
Yes your dad could well have put a spin on it- that's a good point Numblotus has brought up.
Thank you- For me this relates to something my dad told me my brother said recently about a conversation we'd had, and which wasn't quite what happened.
Now I'm wondering which PD out of the two of them, actually put the spin on!
Lol.
Fun and games of the PD world.  :roll:
I ignored it and it fell flat anyway.
It does work, to ignore it, or give a medium chill answer then move on. It can feel a bit meh 😑 at first, because we are so used to being drawn into the drama, the circular arguments that at least give us some form of illusion of a bond, but it only feeds them their supply ( and never, EVER feeds us the so sought- after approval!). After a while of using the technique it can become quite satisfying to watch the firework sputter and go out.
They want the Big Bang of course, and will keep trying for it.
Changing the subject? Powerful. I've done this to dad a few times now. His look of incredulity wasn't lost on me. It disallows their dominance of the talk. Every time we grab the narrative from them and turn it another way we reinforce our individuality.
It holds back the bombardment of negativity and doom they enjoy so much- and it wrong foots them into a kind of shocked passivity.
At least for a while!

I just really cannot be bothered to get into it all to be honest. It wears me down. It does feel good that brother can't even get hold of me now I must admit!

I just can't be dealing with the pair of them. Its like we live in different worlds if I'm honest. They've proven many times that they're values are not mine yet they both try to force me to be like them.

Yep it was good last weekend when Dad said "you're brother is really upset with you". I just shrugged and said "up to him". The look of shock was great. Then it was "so did you see the cricket the other day?"

He did also tell me how his cousin invited him for xmas dinner. Managed to mention FOUR times how his cousin had said how its not right hes on his own for xmas dinner. Cousin probably did - hes the worlds worst FM to be honest. I expect my name is mud with him now. BUT, Dad seemed to think he HAD TO mention it that many times.

Again, I completely ignored it and then when Dad said "Oh I didnt like to impose so I said I'd stay home, probably won't see a soul all day, but it is what is I guess". So I just shrugged again.....

I'm past all the guilt now which I had for years.My MIL is 80 so only a few years younger. She comes to us for xmas day.

Don't get me wrong she has her moments and can be a right PITA but shes generally OK. Compared to Dad who, makes no effort to get along with people, ignores my kids because he can't be bothered, and generally, acts like its all about him.

He had chances for 10 years - I tried to talk to him - his answer was always "well I'm old you know me if I've got something to say". He just does not get it.

I tried to think to myself the other day. If he passed away in 6 months, would I regret leaving him at home on his last Xmas day. Do you know what I honestly think I can answer NO I WOULD NOT. For the reasons above.

You've turned a corner here p123! Great progress! I can feel it in your words.

Whether or not your brother actually said that to your father or not (you never really know with the pd person since their version of history is often not what happened), the result is the same. Result being a guilt trip forced upon you which you thankfully deflected based on your new knowledge.  I think once you finally let it sink in and see it all for the manipulation that it is, it is freedom. I went through an anger stage as well first once I realized just how emotionally abused and manipulated I had been. I'm through that now and sort of just disgusted by it all.  Disgusted that people can act that way and determined to avoid these people as much as possible. I don't want the drama or negativity in my life. We deserve peace and there's no peace with the pd person honestly.

Smart to not tell your dad any of your health issues. I stated doing that too. We are only valued for what we can do for them so us being ill or injured causes great anxiety to them. Then WE have to calm THEM down about our own illness or injury which is so backwards. Better to avoid any talk of anything personal whatsoever with them.

Quote from: Adrianna on December 19, 2019, 06:08:27 AM
You've turned a corner here p123! Great progress! I can feel it in your words.

Whether or not your brother actually said that to your father or not (you never really know with the pd person since their version of history is often not what happened), the result is the same. Result being a guilt trip forced upon you which you thankfully deflected based on your new knowledge.  I think once you finally let it sink in and see it all for the manipulation that it is, it is freedom. I went through an anger stage as well first once I realized just how emotionally abused and manipulated I had been. I'm through that now and sort of just disgusted by it all.  Disgusted that people can act that way and determined to avoid these people as much as possible. I don't want the drama or negativity in my life. We deserve peace and there's no peace with the pd person honestly.

Smart to not tell your dad any of your health issues. I stated doing that too. We are only valued for what we can do for them so us being ill or injured causes great anxiety to them. Then WE have to calm THEM down about our own illness or injury which is so backwards. Better to avoid any talk of anything personal whatsoever with them.

Thanks Adrianna. Yes I don't know what was actually said. Who knows? But it seems brother is as bad as Dad.

Yeh I still get really mad (see my rants on this forum!). I'm trying not to. I'm at the stage now where I look at the two of them and think "not interested, do what you want but leave me out of it".

The health thing I finally worked out. He got a bit obsessive about asking me what the doctor said, when I'm going back, asking me every single phone call. He asks how my son is (hes ASD Aspergers and its been challenging). Makes stupid comments but I've worked out that all he really wants is a status update and to try and work out if there is any danger of my time being taken away from him because of my son.

Its not consideration for my welfare, its a vested interest in ensuring I am fit enough and have no distractions so I am able to serve him....

I've always thought if I ever split from my wife and get divorced I'm not telling him (not happening though been married 23 years). He'd be a nightmare. He'd want to know the ins and outs, make stupid innappropriate comments, and basically, it would all be about how it affects him.

P123 you said "They've proven many times that they're values are not mine yet they both try to force me to be like them."

It stood out to me and I just want to reflect on it for a moment. This is one of the ways in which you are "malfunctioning" in your father's eyes. He raised you fully intending you to be the dutiful son, take care of his every need, look after him no matter the cost to your own family, because he comes first and they'll "just have to understand won't they?"

In short, the brainwashing isn't working properly anymore and he's desperately trying to get it to.

My own pd mom has said something like "wow, you really are a different person now aren't you?" but with a very negative insinuation attached, like it's bad I don't agree with her every little whim anymore. Let me point out, it's not bad, it's just natural, but the pd cannot see it that way. It's very sad. Very sad that they want to stunt our individual growth and development just to serve their purpose.

Also, good work. So glad you get a nice, peaceful day with your little family for Christmas. Enjoy it! Try not to think of your dad at all the day of, he's not earned that right to your thoughts. For that matter, can you turn off your phone that day? Might not be a bad idea.

I think you just took a big step in the right direction.  You finally reached the "I don't care what they think" stage.

I think you've taken a huge step in the right direction!   :cheer:

There's no way to tell if your brother actually said what your father said he said, and even if he did - so what?  It changes nothing.  If your brother is that damned concerned, he can cancel his holiday and invite your dad over.

Your father has refused another offer, and it's not up to you to fill the void.  Just because he *expects* it, doesn't mean it's going to happen.

You're definitely malfunctioning and neither of them like it.  They want the status quo, where you are responsible for your dad and your brother does nothing but put a shine on the bar with the sleeves of his coat.

Those days are  over - your holidays belong to you and your FOC, and not your father telling you to sort them or they'll have other holidays, or they'll just have to understand he comes first.

That's rubbish and you know it.  :yes:

Your dad is responsible for *himself* and seeing to his own needs.  If he can't do that, he can hire others to care for him, or go into a home - but he can't expect you to put your own responsibilities aside, just because he wants you to drive 50 miles so he can save a quid or two.  :stars:

Anger and indifference are healthy emotions because they help you put order to chaos, and make saying, "No" a lot easier.  :thumbup:

In the last year of her life, Didi was absolutely mental to get me to install her in a hospital bed in our living room, and if not that, at least get an invite over here, so she could fake an illness and never leave.   :aaauuugh:

I'd banned her and Ray from the house for trying to get our pets sick (feeding them rancid lunch meat after I specifically told her NOT to), so that wasn't happening - but this did:

Right before Thanksgiving - she's in the hospital.  Out for Thanksgiving.  In right after for a few days.  :dramaqueen:

A few weeks later, she'd worked herself into a froth about not getting her way, so she spent several more days in the hospital, sure I'd come running.  :dramaqueen: :violin:

I hadn't for most of 2013, and I wasn't going to start so she was hospitalized right before Christmas.  Out for Christmas Eve and Day.  In again right after for a few days.  :dramaqueen: :dramaqueen: :violin: :violin:

In right before the New Year - at home for NYE and NYD.  Back in again for a few days on Jan 2.   :dramaqueen: :violin: :dramaqueen: :violin: :dramaqueen: :violin:

What did I do?

"Oh, you don't say.  Well, I'm glad you're getting care.  No, I really can't get away.  I mean, I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good."  :ninja:

I'd get the phone slammed down on me, but so what?  I didn't CARE - and no, I wasn't going to visit, invite her over, celebrate holidays with her, put a hospital bed in our living room, or any other damned fool thing except *lower contact and not get involved.*   :yes:

I did nothing while she imploded, knowing she had Ray  She also had a telephone that dialed numbers other than ours.  :wacko:

If she hadn't died, I'd be NC.  There was no way to have any sort of relationship with somebody who just takes and takes and takes, and when you think they're done, they up their game and expect even MORE.

Once you get to anger and indifference, you start to see the realistic possibility of No Contact in your future - and the thought no longer worries you.  Instead, it gives you solace, knowing there will be peace and quiet after the inevitable Extinction Burst.  :pissed:

If I were in your shoes, I'd block his number for all the upcoming holidays - from Christmas through New Years - and start your 2020 right by having his groceries delivered.  I'd only call to tell him to expect the delivery, and get off the phone ASAP.

He's not going to like it, but too bad.  This is as much as he gets - and he can take it or leave it.  :ninja:

:hug:

Quote from: Andeza on December 19, 2019, 01:47:12 PM
P123 you said "They've proven many times that they're values are not mine yet they both try to force me to be like them."

It stood out to me and I just want to reflect on it for a moment. This is one of the ways in which you are "malfunctioning" in your father's eyes. He raised you fully intending you to be the dutiful son, take care of his every need, look after him no matter the cost to your own family, because he comes first and they'll "just have to understand won't they?"

In short, the brainwashing isn't working properly anymore and he's desperately trying to get it to.

My own pd mom has said something like "wow, you really are a different person now aren't you?" but with a very negative insinuation attached, like it's bad I don't agree with her every little whim anymore. Let me point out, it's not bad, it's just natural, but the pd cannot see it that way. It's very sad. Very sad that they want to stunt our individual growth and development just to serve their purpose.

Also, good work. So glad you get a nice, peaceful day with your little family for Christmas. Enjoy it! Try not to think of your dad at all the day of, he's not earned that right to your thoughts. For that matter, can you turn off your phone that day? Might not be a bad idea.

Thanks Adrianna.

Yes you may have seen the "brothers kids" thing a few months ago. Basically, he doesnt bother with his kids from previous partners. Social services wanted him to take custody temporarily (mother is a problem) and he said "no she'll have to go into a home because I'm too busy with work". Dad advised him to do this too.

When I found out I didn't know what to say. I just looked at the pair of them and couldn't speak. My wife wanted to take her on temporarily but in the end if was resolved and the little girl went back with her mother.

After that I've never looked at brother and dad in the same light. They're like strangers to me.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on December 19, 2019, 11:22:56 PM
I think you've taken a huge step in the right direction!   :cheer:

There's no way to tell if your brother actually said what your father said he said, and even if he did - so what?  It changes nothing.  If your brother is that damned concerned, he can cancel his holiday and invite your dad over.

Your father has refused another offer, and it's not up to you to fill the void.  Just because he *expects* it, doesn't mean it's going to happen.

You're definitely malfunctioning and neither of them like it.  They want the status quo, where you are responsible for your dad and your brother does nothing but put a shine on the bar with the sleeves of his coat.

Those days are  over - your holidays belong to you and your FOC, and not your father telling you to sort them or they'll have other holidays, or they'll just have to understand he comes first.

That's rubbish and you know it.  :yes:

Your dad is responsible for *himself* and seeing to his own needs.  If he can't do that, he can hire others to care for him, or go into a home - but he can't expect you to put your own responsibilities aside, just because he wants you to drive 50 miles so he can save a quid or two.  :stars:

Anger and indifference are healthy emotions because they help you put order to chaos, and make saying, "No" a lot easier.  :thumbup:

In the last year of her life, Didi was absolutely mental to get me to install her in a hospital bed in our living room, and if not that, at least get an invite over here, so she could fake an illness and never leave.   :aaauuugh:

I'd banned her and Ray from the house for trying to get our pets sick (feeding them rancid lunch meat after I specifically told her NOT to), so that wasn't happening - but this did:

Right before Thanksgiving - she's in the hospital.  Out for Thanksgiving.  In right after for a few days.  :dramaqueen:

A few weeks later, she'd worked herself into a froth about not getting her way, so she spent several more days in the hospital, sure I'd come running.  :dramaqueen: :violin:

I hadn't for most of 2013, and I wasn't going to start so she was hospitalized right before Christmas.  Out for Christmas Eve and Day.  In again right after for a few days.  :dramaqueen: :dramaqueen: :violin: :violin:

In right before the New Year - at home for NYE and NYD.  Back in again for a few days on Jan 2.   :dramaqueen: :violin: :dramaqueen: :violin: :dramaqueen: :violin:

What did I do?

"Oh, you don't say.  Well, I'm glad you're getting care.  No, I really can't get away.  I mean, I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good."  :ninja:

I'd get the phone slammed down on me, but so what?  I didn't CARE - and no, I wasn't going to visit, invite her over, celebrate holidays with her, put a hospital bed in our living room, or any other damned fool thing except *lower contact and not get involved.*   :yes:

I did nothing while she imploded, knowing she had Ray  She also had a telephone that dialed numbers other than ours.  :wacko:

If she hadn't died, I'd be NC.  There was no way to have any sort of relationship with somebody who just takes and takes and takes, and when you think they're done, they up their game and expect even MORE.

Once you get to anger and indifference, you start to see the realistic possibility of No Contact in your future - and the thought no longer worries you.  Instead, it gives you solace, knowing there will be peace and quiet after the inevitable Extinction Burst.  :pissed:

If I were in your shoes, I'd block his number for all the upcoming holidays - from Christmas through New Years - and start your 2020 right by having his groceries delivered.  I'd only call to tell him to expect the delivery, and get off the phone ASAP.

He's not going to like it, but too bad.  This is as much as he gets - and he can take it or leave it.  :ninja:

:hug:

Yes. I just really CANNOT BE BOTHERED WITH ALL THE DRAMA any more......

I'm sure my brother and Dad think the same. That I've changed and that I'm selfish. Don't care at all what they think.

I never had a particularly high opinion of my brother anyway but thats nose-dived. I used to think of my Dad as such a great man but thats nosedived to rock bottom this past year as I've seen what hes capable of.

I realised the other day and its upsetting but I dont think I'd miss either of them if they weren't in my life any more.
All I can see for the future is Dad getting worse and worse, actually getting a real illness. Hes a complete nightmare when hes got a cold. Hes going to panic and expect more and more and more. Hes getting more stubborn than ever so I know hes not going to consider better living options.

I just DO NOT want to be involved in it all. I've got my own stuff to deal with.

Don't you feel lighter just knowing you are done with the drama? You don't need it, you don't want it, and you were not put on this earth to make your father happy, no matter what he or your brother think. Accept the anger when it comes and recognize it's a healthy response to recognizing you've been emotionally abused and manipulated for a long time. It was as bad as you think. It's not normal for people to treat others as servants. You aren't a bad person for putting your wife and children and YOU first.

Quote from: Adrianna on December 20, 2019, 05:52:14 AM
Don't you feel lighter just knowing you are done with the drama? You don't need it, you don't want it, and you were not put on this earth to make your father happy, no matter what he or your brother think. Accept the anger when it comes and recognize it's a healthy response to recognizing you've been emotionally abused and manipulated for a long time. It was as bad as you think. It's not normal for people to treat others as servants. You aren't a bad person for putting your wife and children and YOU first.

Yes I do. I just need to stop getting so angry at them now - just think "do what you want I dont care"

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on December 19, 2019, 11:22:56 PM
...You're definitely malfunctioning and neither of them like it.  They want the status quo, where you are responsible for your dad and your brother does nothing but put a shine on the bar with the sleeves of his coat.

:yeahthat:  Well put, WI!!

p123, you know you're headed in the right direction when you get this type of reaction from them-- i.e., they are pissed that you are malfunctioning.  :yes:

Yeah what your brother did to his daughter - and your father's larticipation in that - was UNFORGIVABLE. Holy moly.

Well the meal was done yesterday. I tried to ignore him but honestly.... He moaned from start to finish. I drew the line when he started abusing the waiter (for no reason!). He got the idea in his head that they were too slow (they werent!) so decided to have a right go. It was awful...

He pretty much didnt speak to me. He was too busy bobbing around, wondering where his food was. We had a big argument about that.

He also decided to make sure I knew how ill he was. Had to practically drag/carry him to the bathroom 10 yards away. Then he said I needed to help him go to the bathroom! No way.
He walked half a mile across a busy road this week to get his hair cut. Yet I'm dragging him 10 yards across a restaurant.....

Apart from when he decided he wanted to go hes 15 yards across the restaurant with his coat on. I hadn't even got the bill (its a slow process in the UK - I much prefer the US where the put the bill/cheque on the table). I had to call him back - he walked fine then!

Brother kept up the pretence that he was away over xmas. Went dark on facebook. Didnt help when he did a pic xmas day that was obviously in his living room. His apartment is close to the dual carriageway (freeway) - you can see into his living room. Guess what I saw on my way up Dads yesterday am? Yep he was standing there  - supposed to be 200 miles away.
Of course, I mentioned it to Dad but he pretty much ignored it. Doesn't want to believe that the Golden Child and main provider (brother) is not perfect I guess.

Will I take him again next year? Well hes proved hes going nowhere near my family with his behaviour. I guess I'll have no choice....

Once again he had a dig that he hasnt seen my wife for ages.( Yeh get used to it). Cheekily also that I dont visit as much as I do and that he really wanted to go out this weekend. (No chance, my wife was working boxing day, we're both back in work next week, shes working new years eve - this is our only weekend to ourselves with the kids).

Glad you got through it and you're still in one piece!

Sounds really dreadful, though.  The part of your post that got my attention was when you said your dad noted you don't visit him as much as you used to.  He's catching on to you lowering contact.  I would be prepared for more antics and shenanigans on his part to try to rope you into more visits.  I would expect a "hospital visit" is also very likely on the horizon, given that he is trying to guilt you into feeling sorry for him being "ill".

Regarding you not having a choice but to take him out again next year, well, yes you do have a choice, p123.  You can say "No, dad, it's not going to work" and offer no apologies or reasons why. 

But next Boxing Day is light-years away.  Much can happen between now and then.  My humble advice to you is to work on your current situation-- keep limiting visits.  Have a plan for how to deal with him when he ups the ante. 

I would not mention your brother to your dad.  That is going to feed into the whole "triangulation" thing your dad is trying to do with you and your brother.  He wants to pit you into a competition with each other and sit back and watch the "fun" as you two go at it.  As the GC, your brother is likely seen by your dad as not ever doing anything wrong, whereas you, the Scapegoat, are seen as not ever doing anything right.  It's futile to try to change your dad's mind on this.  With my NM, my GC brother was a saint.  It wouldn't matter if I had a decree signed by St. Michael that he was a ruthless con, he would still walk on water in NM's eyes.  So I would let that dog lie, so to speak, and not talk about your brother at all to your dad. 

Hope you had a great Christmas with your FOC! 

What would happen if every time he requests your help in the restroom you respond with, "This is why I think you need to be in an assisted living facility?"  And every time he heavy handedly hints at more contact you say, "Yeah.  Right. Like today was so much fun?"

Would it shut him up or just send him into a rage?  Do you care which?  Would you feel better even if it did not change his behaviors in any way at all?

Of course, the easiest PD to deal with is someone else's, so feel free to ignore these ideas. 

Quote from: p123 on December 27, 2019, 05:59:17 AM
Then he said I needed to help him go to the bathroom! No way.

Sorry that the day wasn't good for you. And you probably don't need to help your Dad to do that. :/

Boxing Day sucked as much as you feared. Sorry.

But can I assume Christmas Day was a success??!! I don't see anything about "emergencies" or him blowing up your phone or anything?

Yes i was also wondering how you did on christmas day. Did you keep up your pretense too? Good for you if you did! Im glad the going out to dinner thing is over for you now. Maybe you can do some very peaceful relaxing FOC time to ring in the new year.
You are doing great. Youve got this now. Now you just have to as someone on here always says 'wash, rinse, repeat  wash, rinse, repeat until you are ALL the way Out of the FOG and finally FREE! :ninja:

It sounds like it went about as well as it was going to, p123, with your PD dad. But as others are saying, I think you've really turned a corner and there's no telling how far along you will be Out of the FOG come next holiday season.

In the meantime, it's OVER!!!! Congrats, you made it!!

-DoQ-

I find that my UNPD dad is better when there's someone else there. I'm thinking, is there a friend who could come to one or two of these meals?
They usually behave when non family are around?
Waiters and the like have to 'serve' and can't be rude back, so they see them as fair game for their complaining and sarcasm.
My dad gets like that with waiters too, and he's sometimes outwardly rude about other tables 'making noise' (usually babies or children) .
Just wondering.
It honestly might be worth paying a care  assistant to moonlight for a couple of hours,  and just pose as a friend of yours ! haha.

I know how it is if my dad gets me on my own. I can be a real target.

They don't change. They don't mellow. In fact their attitude/ responses get worse as they age.  But IME they do behave more moderately in mixed ( as in blood with non -blood)!company.

Christmas Day went well for me with dad,  because there were other people around who weren't blood family.

Quote from: illogical on December 27, 2019, 07:45:05 AM
Glad you got through it and you're still in one piece!

Sounds really dreadful, though.  The part of your post that got my attention was when you said your dad noted you don't visit him as much as you used to.  He's catching on to you lowering contact.  I would be prepared for more antics and shenanigans on his part to try to rope you into more visits.  I would expect a "hospital visit" is also very likely on the horizon, given that he is trying to guilt you into feeling sorry for him being "ill".

Regarding you not having a choice but to take him out again next year, well, yes you do have a choice, p123.  You can say "No, dad, it's not going to work" and offer no apologies or reasons why. 

But next Boxing Day is light-years away.  Much can happen between now and then.  My humble advice to you is to work on your current situation-- keep limiting visits.  Have a plan for how to deal with him when he ups the ante. 

I would not mention your brother to your dad.  That is going to feed into the whole "triangulation" thing your dad is trying to do with you and your brother.  He wants to pit you into a competition with each other and sit back and watch the "fun" as you two go at it.  As the GC, your brother is likely seen by your dad as not ever doing anything wrong, whereas you, the Scapegoat, are seen as not ever doing anything right.  It's futile to try to change your dad's mind on this.  With my NM, my GC brother was a saint.  It wouldn't matter if I had a decree signed by St. Michael that he was a ruthless con, he would still walk on water in NM's eyes.  So I would let that dog lie, so to speak, and not talk about your brother at all to your dad. 

Hope you had a great Christmas with your FOC!

Yes fully expect more drama. Hes got a MASSIVE thing about my wife never visiting him at the moment. Why should see?

Yeh I know the brother thing. To be honest, it entertains me when I catch him out to see the look on Dads face sometimes....

Thanks all. Yes Xmas day was GREAT. No sign of him......

Boxing Day meal didn't go well. Hes proved once again that he can't be trusted when out of the house. I knew it would be challenging but I'm not taking him out if hes going to be rude to people. Neither am I being fed the "Act" for the duration. He was sat there moaning, bobbing up and down, trying to call the waiter over and I said "What exactly is the rush? Are you going somewhere later?" Of course, the answer is No. So hes stops for 10 mins. Back doing the same.

Thing is he doesnt think he did anything wrong. He thinks they were slow and needed to be told.

And dont ask about the bill. I paid. He tried to grab it to "check" it, he did see it, wanted to know why it was this much? Tried to call the waiter over. OMG. It was awful. Moaned so about 5 tables heard that it was "daylight robbery". It was pretty cheap to be honest. Chain restaurant here in the uk (Harvester). £50 inc drinks for both of us.

Yes hes now set the bar for "more visits". Wanted me to visit this weekend to "take him out in the car". Jeez. I saw you Thursday and you want me there Sunday. No chance. Trying to start the new year off with what HE wants. i.e. visits every spare moment I get.

Not happening. This year I'm going lower contact. ITs going to be MAX once every two weeks now. Lump it or like it.

And the bathroom thing was a joke.... It was 10 yards. At home he has to walk 10 yards, take his chair lift up one floor. etc etc.

Yet he leaned ALL his weight on me and pretty much had me drag him to the bathroom. When he said I'd need to help him undress for the bathroom. No way Jose....
Jeez you manage at home did u suddenly have a stroke in the last 20 mins I didnt notice.

Of course, this is all the "Look how ill I am, you need to visit me all the time" act.

Well I think by his antics you can rule out going out to restaurants too in the future. He's creating his own reality by his behavior. If he can't behave out in public, don't take him. Next year politely remind him of his when Boxing Day roles around.

You said every two weeks you'd visit but I'd suggest even less visits. Why not once a month? The more time you spend with him the more unhappy you will be. There's no rule that says you have to visit more often, or at all actually. Let that one sink in.

I'm glad Christmas was good!

I know I saw dad Christmas Day and we looked after him, made a fuss and all of that jazz. He had a great time and was pretty well behaved.

Other siblings have no idea why dad isn't furious with me and refusing to speak to me.
Why?
Because I actually hadn't seen him since Fathers's day in June. We took him to a restaurant that day.

We've insisted he doesn't drive to us as he's 87 now. Massive stand off over the summer but he gave in and let us fetch him for Christmas. (Brother tried to intervene and invite himself too? See my other thread on the siblings section) 

The other siblings still 'dance the dance' for him, fawning and validating his pretend illnesses and join in with his negativity and passive -aggressive responses.

Older sis ( narcissistic) though, often angrily opposes his views ( to the extent that's she's never invited to his home now)
- but if you read' Toxic Parents ' this too is highly unhealthy.  If is just another way of 'dancing the same (toxic) dance'  back to him.
She think she's rebelling,  but she actually conforms too, by giving him valuable narcissistic supply (through conflict/ scapegoating).

Then, when she's not rebelling, she fawns too.    :roll: :sadno:

Dad uses her when he needs someone to be angry on his behalf. When he goes to hospital on a whim, it's her that he gets to harass the nurses and doctors for treatment/ a bed.
She enhances the whole experience for him. He is always ever so glad to see her in the hospital. She is always ever so glad to go.
It's her most valued time and place! She becomes valued!
Effing hell no -one thinks about taxpayers money!
He tried to get me to do this once when I was at the hospital with him one time. He started  moaning about the hard chair.
There wasn't a lot wrong with him.
I told him that the room was full of people in pain, some were children.
😔
I don't fawn,  I don't rebel and I no longer point out where siblings have lied or misled him.
Nor do I remind him that some whom he never saw for years but who  are very attentive and fawning nowadays, may well be doing it for their own narcissistic and
financial gain.
I've got this forum for that. I've got my FOC  for that. I've got my therapist for that.
The narcs don't wish to hear, and what's more, they won't believe.
And what's more, the disbelief hurts.

I don't get competitive about my siblings. I don't bring them up and if he does, and it's judgmental,  I tell him not to. I never criticise them with him, nor do I praise them. If he praises them to me I tolerate that and grey rock, I give a one word answer that will suffice, then move on.
They don't concern me. Those people are separate from my relationship with my dad.
The illusion they spin is twofold

1. That we are in constant competition with our siblings. In order to be loved and appreciated, we have to strive to prove and to show that we are the better son/ daughter.

2. The more we see them and the more we do things for them, then the more they will appreciate us, and the more they will approve of us.

Number 2 is A MASSIVE MYTH.

I've cracked the top one. I've dropped the rope on the manic sibling fighting.

The second one - guess what? Dad values and respects me more since I've stepped back from reacting to his guilting about visits. I've stopped dropping everything when he says he's ill and ' needs me' .
When he tried this last I was firm but calm. I no longer get defensive with him. I don't bring siblings into it, I told him I couldn't come right now( no jading) and I didn't think he needed a hospital visit ( 4th one that week) and to  ring his GP.

And, rather than things being worse between us, they are much, MUCH better.
I'm getting some respect., even approval- not that o sought those things.
You have to be willing to lose your parent. But  I have got him to see that thing 's can't all be on his terms. And he's seen that he can still have a great time.
I love him but I do these things for my own sanity. Also I think it helps dad more than  the other siblings pandering to the self -delusion and magical thinking.


And of course, number 3
They will never change. They never give the approval sought, because that would mean that the fame would be over and their supply would dry up!

Ps I meant to write that the GAME would be over, but yep it's the spotlight they love so perhaps it's fame too that they don't want to lose!!

His dad was hoping to foil the restaurant idea... because he wanted to be at p123's house.

I guess next time they can just hang at dad's flat and not go anywhere at all, maybe. P123 could grab some takeout on the way in.

Hi p123,

Sure sounds like with that bathroom stuff he's trying to audition you for his caregiver.  Yikes!  Glad you set him straight on that.   :aaauuugh:

Yup I  think he x was trying to ' shame' you in the restaurant, so that you invite him to your home next year.
My dad's not like that and if he started that he would be in AL.
It's our job to care for them, not to do the caretaking ourselves. I know some people do, but it never seems to work out.

My NM tried twice to get me to assist her with her toileting habits.  Both times I was still in the FOG, but I could tell she was getting way too close for comfort!

The first time she was still living at home and I took her to a doctor's appointment.  She was walking with a walker.  She needed to go to the bathroom, so I got the key from the front desk and assisted her with opening the door to the hallway.  A short walk later, there was the bathroom-- a large affair equipped with safety "grab-bar" rails, etc.  NM wanted me to go inside with her.  I said "No.  I'll be out here.  When you finish, let me know and I'll open the door for you."  That was the end of that-- or so I thought.

About a year later, she was in an Assisted Living Facility and I went to her apartment for a visit.  She was in the bathroom when I got there.  I had a key and let myself in.  A short time later, the door to the bathroom cracks open and a roll of toilet paper comes flying out as if she had gone bowling with it.  She said "Illogical, I need you to get that toilet paper and bring it in to me."  I said "You have an extra roll right there on the shelf by the toilet.  Use that."  And I quickly shut the door.

Looking back on it, I believe NM was trying to get me to be her full-time nurse/caregiver.  The next step was going to be pressuring me into letting her move in with me, where I could take care of her 24/7.   She frequently hinted at that scenario.  It didn't happen, of course, but Geez Louise!

Run, p123, run!!!   :rundog:

Quote from: illogical on December 28, 2019, 01:04:18 PM
a roll of toilet paper comes flying out as if she had gone bowling with it

Andrex all over the place and a barrage of puppies comes through the door chasing after it.

Hope NYE is peaceful for you, Dad, and the whole family. 

It is not an adult childs 'job' to care for their parent, unless you want it to be so you volunteer for it. Otherwise anyone who doesnt want or cant or whatever is completely off the hook imo.  :roll:

I agree that he's trying to force you into a caregiver role, which will take up more and more of your time.   :aaauuugh:

Both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray tried that with me - Didi came first, insisting she needed help with just about everything - can't cook, can't clean, can't  even boil an egg or look up a phone number, poor bunny - and she'd shamble along on her cane until she saw  something shiny in a store window, then POW! - she'd take off like a shot, race-walking to the object of her desire!  :stars:

But she was so sick and weak, you know.  Surely, I HAD to care for her, hint, hint, hint.  :roll:

Except I didn't and pushed back - refusing to visit, contacting her less and less, and keeping to *strict* Medium Chill, so we had absolutely nothing to talk about.  I was fine, DH was good, the job was going well, everything was fine, and I was very busy with the usual, same old, don't want to bore you.  :ninja:

All health complaints were kicked upstairs to her doctor or pharmacist.  Complaints about cooking were met with suggesting they sign up for Meals on Wheels.  Cleaning?  Call Merry Maids.  She needed a ride and didn't want to go with Ray ?  Call the Senior Van.  :ninja:

I'd offer up other suggestions and if she shot them down, fine.   It didn't mean I had to or was going to take up the slack.  8-)

Didi was of the faulty mindset I HAD to move her into our house and wait on her.  Didi was wrong - and Ray never figured that out.

No, he'd learned too well from Didi and thought the same things - with Didi, I was just learning about boundaries and really had to put my foot down.  It wasn't easy and it felt like I was being BAD  at times, but the more she pushed, the angrier I got, and the angrier (and more disgusted) I got, the easier boundaries became.  :yes:

Ray didn't stand a freaking chance.  By the time he rocked up, boundaries were easy.  The trial by fire Didi put me though saw to that - and as your father makes more and more demands and becomes more and more unreasonable, I think the same thing is going to happen to you.

I'd   already think ahead to next Christmas and decide now you're not going to visit for Christmas Eve, Christmas, Boxing Day or any other reason. You will NOT take him out because he behaves so badly in public, and you won't stop by with food, just so he's not alone.

It helps if you decide, well in advance, what you will and won't put up with - and don't forget the things he's done, the crap he's pulled, the lousy behavior, the waify behavior, any of it.  Do NOT forget that stuff and let abuse amnesia set in!

When he demands X or Y, remember how he's acted and tell him you're busy, you'll see what you can do, but it's not looking good - or tell him you can't and he'll have to make other arrangements.   :ninja:

The groceries?  I'd just order them and have them delivered.  If he refuses them, that's on him - he can figure it out from there but you will NOT shop for him, since he doesn't appreciate it and sees it as YOUR JOB.

I don't know how your dad is - some PD individuals do eventually give up because they realize they're not going to win, but Didi and Ray never gave up - Didi was determined to get me to be her slave until the day she died, and Ray would have been the same way if he hadn't overplayed his hand and gotten himself declared incompetent.

Your dad may have himself hospitalized (repeatedly!) in a bid to reinforce  his need for a caregiver - if that's the case, *stay away* at all costs and reinforce, over the phone, that he needs to be in Assisted Living.

I'd make a point to stress that, whenever I had a chance.   :yes:

He won't like that, but too bad - and  he won't like that he can't *make* you do anything you don't  *want* to do.  :sunny:

:hug:

Quote from: nanotech on December 27, 2019, 05:52:23 PM
I find that my UNPD dad is better when there's someone else there. I'm thinking, is there a friend who could come to one or two of these meals?
They usually behave when non family are around?
Waiters and the like have to 'serve' and can't be rude back, so they see them as fair game for their complaining and sarcasm.
My dad gets like that with waiters too, and he's sometimes outwardly rude about other tables 'making noise' (usually babies or children) .
Just wondering.
It honestly might be worth paying a care  assistant to moonlight for a couple of hours,  and just pose as a friend of yours ! haha.

I know how it is if my dad gets me on my own. I can be a real target.

They don't change. They don't mellow. In fact their attitude/ responses get worse as they age.  But IME they do behave more moderately in mixed ( as in blood with non -blood)!company.

Christmas Day went well for me with dad,  because there were other people around who weren't blood family.

Now that would be an idea!

Quote from: Adrianna on December 28, 2019, 06:52:42 AM
Well I think by his antics you can rule out going out to restaurants too in the future. He's creating his own reality by his behavior. If he can't behave out in public, don't take him. Next year politely remind him of his when Boxing Day roles around.

You said every two weeks you'd visit but I'd suggest even less visits. Why not once a month? The more time you spend with him the more unhappy you will be. There's no rule that says you have to visit more often, or at all actually. Let that one sink in.

I'm glad Christmas was good!

Oh hes pushing already. Took him out Boxing Day wanted to know "can you take me out sunday". Getting in there early. Nope not happening.
Hes also said "phone me first things new years day to wish me happy new year". And also "Would be nice to see you're wife I've not seen her for a good year".

Hes off and running. Of course the last two items are control by him - he likes it that people pay homage to him. Its going to be a cold day in hell before he sees my wife again - he can forget that one.

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 28, 2019, 08:26:41 AM
His dad was hoping to foil the restaurant idea... because he wanted to be at p123's house.

I guess next time they can just hang at dad's flat and not go anywhere at all, maybe. P123 could grab some takeout on the way in.

Yep thats the best idea for nexty year....

One problem - I normally go away for the weekend once a year to watch cricket with him. I dunno if I can take it this year to be honest. (see thread on pee-gate last year!). That going to mean hotels, more than one meal. Someone save me!

Quote from: illogical on December 28, 2019, 01:04:18 PM
My NM tried twice to get me to assist her with her toileting habits.  Both times I was still in the FOG, but I could tell she was getting way too close for comfort!

The first time she was still living at home and I took her to a doctor's appointment.  She was walking with a walker.  She needed to go to the bathroom, so I got the key from the front desk and assisted her with opening the door to the hallway.  A short walk later, there was the bathroom-- a large affair equipped with safety "grab-bar" rails, etc.  NM wanted me to go inside with her.  I said "No.  I'll be out here.  When you finish, let me know and I'll open the door for you."  That was the end of that-- or so I thought.

About a year later, she was in an Assisted Living Facility and I went to her apartment for a visit.  She was in the bathroom when I got there.  I had a key and let myself in.  A short time later, the door to the bathroom cracks open and a roll of toilet paper comes flying out as if she had gone bowling with it.  She said "Illogical, I need you to get that toilet paper and bring it in to me."  I said "You have an extra roll right there on the shelf by the toilet.  Use that."  And I quickly shut the door.

Looking back on it, I believe NM was trying to get me to be her full-time nurse/caregiver.  The next step was going to be pressuring me into letting her move in with me, where I could take care of her 24/7.   She frequently hinted at that scenario.  It didn't happen, of course, but Geez Louise!

Run, p123, run!!!   :rundog:

Oh he'd love it if someone moved in. Remember the episode with my SIL in law who planned to be his carer (for the money!). Dad never gets the idea that being old does not mean you need a carer, being ill and unable to do something is the key, Not laziness.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on December 28, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
I agree that he's trying to force you into a caregiver role, which will take up more and more of your time.   :aaauuugh:

Both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray tried that with me - Didi came first, insisting she needed help with just about everything - can't cook, can't clean, can't  even boil an egg or look up a phone number, poor bunny - and she'd shamble along on her cane until she saw  something shiny in a store window, then POW! - she'd take off like a shot, race-walking to the object of her desire!  :stars:

But she was so sick and weak, you know.  Surely, I HAD to care for her, hint, hint, hint.  :roll:

Except I didn't and pushed back - refusing to visit, contacting her less and less, and keeping to *strict* Medium Chill, so we had absolutely nothing to talk about.  I was fine, DH was good, the job was going well, everything was fine, and I was very busy with the usual, same old, don't want to bore you.  :ninja:

All health complaints were kicked upstairs to her doctor or pharmacist.  Complaints about cooking were met with suggesting they sign up for Meals on Wheels.  Cleaning?  Call Merry Maids.  She needed a ride and didn't want to go with Ray ?  Call the Senior Van.  :ninja:

I'd offer up other suggestions and if she shot them down, fine.   It didn't mean I had to or was going to take up the slack.  8-)

Didi was of the faulty mindset I HAD to move her into our house and wait on her.  Didi was wrong - and Ray never figured that out.

No, he'd learned too well from Didi and thought the same things - with Didi, I was just learning about boundaries and really had to put my foot down.  It wasn't easy and it felt like I was being BAD  at times, but the more she pushed, the angrier I got, and the angrier (and more disgusted) I got, the easier boundaries became.  :yes:

Ray didn't stand a freaking chance.  By the time he rocked up, boundaries were easy.  The trial by fire Didi put me though saw to that - and as your father makes more and more demands and becomes more and more unreasonable, I think the same thing is going to happen to you.

I'd   already think ahead to next Christmas and decide now you're not going to visit for Christmas Eve, Christmas, Boxing Day or any other reason. You will NOT take him out because he behaves so badly in public, and you won't stop by with food, just so he's not alone.

It helps if you decide, well in advance, what you will and won't put up with - and don't forget the things he's done, the crap he's pulled, the lousy behavior, the waify behavior, any of it.  Do NOT forget that stuff and let abuse amnesia set in!

When he demands X or Y, remember how he's acted and tell him you're busy, you'll see what you can do, but it's not looking good - or tell him you can't and he'll have to make other arrangements.   :ninja:

The groceries?  I'd just order them and have them delivered.  If he refuses them, that's on him - he can figure it out from there but you will NOT shop for him, since he doesn't appreciate it and sees it as YOUR JOB.

I don't know how your dad is - some PD individuals do eventually give up because they realize they're not going to win, but Didi and Ray never gave up - Didi was determined to get me to be her slave until the day she died, and Ray would have been the same way if he hadn't overplayed his hand and gotten himself declared incompetent.

Your dad may have himself hospitalized (repeatedly!) in a bid to reinforce  his need for a caregiver - if that's the case, *stay away* at all costs and reinforce, over the phone, that he needs to be in Assisted Living.

I'd make a point to stress that, whenever I had a chance.   :yes:

He won't like that, but too bad - and  he won't like that he can't *make* you do anything you don't  *want* to do.  :sunny:

:hug:

WI - I remember you're story and use it as an inspiration :-)

Dad has noticed last few months that things aren't quite going as he likes. Hes started to fight back I can see that. He wants things as he wants them and thats the end of it.

I've done OK last month or two. No more contact with brother - him and my Dad can carry on without me, Dad thinks hes the perfect son believe what you want. I've ignored MANY requests for visits and "I've been stuck in all week can you take me out on sunday". I just ignore that and call him late sunday evening.

His attitude to my wife is annoying me now. Stop trying to tell me what my wife should do. I've got a feeling this is going to come to a head soon, and I'm going to have to tell him a few home truths.

Fully expect him to escalate things. I can see some hospital admissions coming up. Nope I won't be visiting. I certainly wont be summoned every day like hes expected in the past.

One positive -Not seen a peep from brother over xmas. Good. Thats me and him finished as far as Im concerned. No great loss there.

He still told Dad he was at a friends 200 miles away Xmas Day. Did I mention on here I saw him (the main road to Dad overlooks his flat and you can see into the living room) on boxing day morning standing there. Dads excuse - oh it was probably one of his wifes sons coming around to check on the place. Yeh right - for a 48 hour trip. Well carry on believing that the GC is real and put up with his lies  - not my problem.

Quote from: p123 on December 30, 2019, 04:47:06 AM
I can see some hospital admissions coming up. Nope I won't be visiting. I certainly wont be summoned every day like hes expected in the past.

(sorry for hijacking your topic)

I was back and forth to hospital, staying because, well, just because. I really didn't know any better; I was putting so much pressure on myself that I thought I was going to break but I didn't know exactly why.

I remember walking in one time and I got the words "Where have you been?" My mother was angry with me for not being there, for not protecting her against the medical staff. As if I could have done anything. Much of it feels like a dream. (A bad one)

My grandmother is getting on and still does plenty of stuff herself. :yes:

hello all!

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