Out of the FOG

I am not sure how much more I can take. I am on my knees. I am worried about DD and how badly traumatised she is by STBX. She wanted me to buy some clothes for her and sent me links to some sites, one of them was one I never heard of so had to search about it. With some research it was a well known chinese site with very bad reviews and also bad working conditions for their workers, and I mean bad. I told her I aint buying from there so we need to fins another shop. She responded by running to her room, slamming her door and screaming. Then starting messaging me that I am mean and this and that and that she wants to see her mum and will now message the social worker. That she can use these threats is a real worry and that the SW has put her (and GC) in a position where they think they can be in charge is appalling. I am almost 100% sure that DD also lied about my new friend last week just to make sure I don't get to close to anyone.

I am not sure how much of this I can take. I have no one for support and I am sinking. I really am.

Breathe EM.  There will be swings, highs and lows.  Real lows.  And don't forget she is young and even not in this situation, could react this way.  I did, my daughters did and I know my grand daughter will. 

Be the willow tree for her.  Strong yet bendy.  Go with the flow but know that your roots, your love, are still there.  She will come to love the support, shade, stability and comfort you provide

:bighug: :bighug:

Thanks JKT.

Looking back to yesterday I can see I have done some healing although it was tough. I went to my chair, sat down and took deep breaths and waited it out. In the end DD came and apologised and asked for a hug. She is still not happy with me saying no to her online shop and I promised her to look into it again to see if I could see any reason I was wrong yesterday.

My worry is that during one of her tantrums that she will message her mum or the social worker without realising what kind of damage that could make. I can't be sure she didn't already messaged her mum yesterday to query her about the shop. I told her that it will be incredible difficult for me to fight her battle with her if I don't know what she wants and if she tell me something and goes and tell the social worker something else. I am in two minds about how to proceed with this, shall I keep backing her up that she doesn't want to see her mum and risk her going behind my back and suddenly say she wants to see her? Or do I cut her loose and tell her to handle this herself? If I leave it to her I am afraid that they will just overrun her and go against whatever she wants.

This whole situation is just so hard to deal with. I could never imagine that the social worker would carry on the abuse on behalf of STBX.

You can have this discussion with DD. You can say "yesterday, you were thinking you'd rather live with mum. Tell me how you're feeling about that." She might say she didn't mean it and you can say "you mentioned telling SW you wanted to. If you want to, let's talk about it. If you don't want to, what do you think would happen if you told SW you did?"

You can also mutually brainstorm ideas for how both of you can react next time she is triggered. Obviously the answer isn't "capitulate to her wants" but she may tell you that something you do or say isn't helping and that can be useful to know.

As for her part, it might be useful for you and her to walk through the process of her being upset and realize some things about it, like she may feel like she is going through a catastrophe but it's good to remember she always calms down at some point. If she can remember that the feeling will pass, it may help (though it may be hard to believe in the moment). You guys can picture together how she would rather get through one of those outbursts. For example, if realistic, could she leave the house and walk around the block till she calms down? Could she go to her room (slamming the door is okay?) and be left alone till she calms down? Could she put on headphones or play video games till she calms down?

Whatever it is, you guys can figure out together, and it would be an ongoing discussion with plenty of failures. But these are useful discussions to help her foresee the natural consequences of her behavior, formulate an idea of how she wants to behave and relate to you, and most of all to recignize her own feelings in the moment.

You can surely relate to her strong feelings as well, EM, as you also feel overwhelmed and hopeless when things go awry.

 :yeahthat:

All that square said plus one

This is an opportunity for you and her to learn and practice emotional regulation, mindfulness and work together to be stronger.  Pitch it to her like that and she may just buy in

:bighug:

Thanks both of you.

DD told me already yesterday when she had calmed down that there is no chance she would want to live with her mum and that she never want to see her unsupervised. I think she got an urge to see her mum (as she wants her mum to be) as a reaction to not get her way with me. She knows what her mum is like and she knows there is no prospect to that ever changing. But I need to get her to understand she can't threaten me with telling people she wants to see her mum just to upset me, I made it absolutely clear to her that if she wants to see her mum she is allowed. But this was a massive improvement on her side as well as she only stayed in her anger for about an hour and that she wanted hugs both last night and this morning. I am going to see what kind of state she is when coming home to see what can be discussed, I don't want to risk getting back to the same argument again so soon.

Keep it in mind, EM, that on your part you will not take this bait next time.

If she threatens you "I'm going with mum" you will not panic, just sigh inwardly and put on your Calm Competent Dad hat and manage the real situation at hand (young teen struggling with emotions) without worry for the false one (SW! STBX! Courts! Custody!).

I have such compassion for you and DD....and GC.  Sometimes for stbx when I'm not focused on the harm she does to your children.  Stbx is truly trapped in her reactivity/mostly fight survival brain, I suspect.  Terrible way to live.  Terrible.

You're still trying to gut your way through this, think your way through this situation and IME it makes it harder to regulate emotions, not easier. 

I hope you find some online or 3d support to calm yourself, engage  your Parasympathetic Nervous System and shift out of fight or flight mode.  This emotional roller coaster would be less debilitating, I suspect.  I truly don't know, bc I went through it the same way as you. 

It's too darn painful to live in fight/flight/fawn or freeze and I suspect you're in freeze more often than not.  I don't know, but strategizing and fighting, while appearing calm and consistent, is a trick, ime.

Your nose is on the Pebble, EM.  I know that much.  It would be a relief if you learned to create spaciousness around your problems so you could see them clearly, but also see the other pebbles and rocks and trees and streams, etc.  The possible solutions are available, along with your view of the problem.  You have to figure out how to get some perspective.  You can't think your way to it, ime.  It's impossible, ime.

I hope you look up strategies for calming your Nervous System, find a couple you believe in and maybe enjoy, then practice them with blind faith.....just practice, EM.

There are so many strategies online, EM. 

hhaw, I am in complete freeze mode. I know I can't stay like this but my brain just shut down and I just can't get anything done. DD is really not helping at the moment as I try to clear the house, she makes a mess in the room I just cleared. I constantly need to chase round and turn off lights and appliances she turns on, just an hour ago she started an electric heater in one room and left. She is in such a mood as I am not shopping from this website she wants to shop from, I still have my principles even times are hard. I am not going to let her sulk or threaten me to get her way, that would not show a good example and teach her the wrong things.

I am going to try to get through the coming months, for financial and other reasons I have to wait, then I will get myself and DD private help. I hope.

I was really worn out yesterday and this morning. I am trying to clean the house, pack up items, get the house ready for selling and everywhere I clear up DD comes after me and creates a mess. I am struggling to get her to get into a shower and to just generally clear up after her. After she went to school I took a couple of hours off work to do some cleaning, and it really gets to me when I find sweety wrappers everywhere, lolly sticks under the cussions in the sofa. I was very short with her this morning, I am just at the edge. She felt it and I think she knows as she didn't challenge me. I think even us non's somethime get overwhelmed and need to vent a bit. It doesn't help that the SW is breathing down our necks and do anything for DD to see STBX, despite being told she doesn't want to.

I have done lot's of self reflecting and trying to find myself lately, leaving the PD to one side as I know that now, I need to know why I ended up as I did and dissect my history. I can see loads of things in my childhood that really set me up for this. I also found some really good videos and articles that has opened my eyes about myself, I will create a new topic for this later.

But the roller coaster goes on, up and down, but in the right direction, I think.

EM,

At Out of the FOG, you have shared much of your up and down experience in the divorce, and also your hill and valley ride of thoughts and feelings in this process.  That can be a wonderful asset to have an outlet here and with others, to speak the raw truth. 

If you have ever ridden in the very back car of a rollercoaster, it can be an interesting new experience to turn your head around and watch where you've been vs the hills and valleys ahead.  What you will notice looking behind, is that you have always been going up hill, cresting the short top, or going downhill. In fact, you will also notice that the downhill runs provide the energies to experience the uphill run. 

Eventually the coaster pulls into the only level portion of the track, slows down, and stops, and we are permitted to disembark the coaster and find another ride, or just relax on a bench for a while with a buttery popcorn and a cold soda while we watch others on their own coaster ride.  Enough adult-riding of that coaster and we gain the experience that causes our adrenaline to not pump so fast; which for a rollercoaster, can create undesired boredom.  But in a divorce, that repetitive memory can be a great asset. 

Therefore, you've now ridden this emotional coaster for a while. In mindfulness, the hills and valleys should be expected, and you probably are starting to recognize similar detailed experiences on this repetitive ride.  When time permits, I recommend you move to the back car, and as the coaster is racing up and down the same emotional hills, start viewing the ride facing backwards.  Reread your posts and you will see the pattern of up's and down's; of DD's ups and downs, of stbx's drama moments and short periods of cresting silence. You can use these repetitive experiences to possibly lower your adrenaline, so that this divorce coaster gets a little boring, and you find yourself daydreaming, planning, focusing on, and then doing the next fun adventure, even if that adventure is the peace of a park bench. 

This long ride will eventually come down that last hill, around the final bend and to a quick stop.  It will EM 😊.  Kids may want to immediately run to another coaster, as they are simply adrenaline junkies. PD's may desire to stay on the same thrill-ride or immediate switch rides, so they don't have to face themselves and their own thoughts on the park bench.  But we well-balanced and experienced adults, learn to accept and appreciate the contrast of both the thrills and that bench with a cool beverage in hand.

Ive not experienced any coasters which end on an uphill climb, but rather a downhill run, curve to slow down and then leveling out for the departure. Im expecting my own to end on a downhill moment and then an emotional acceptance.  I will probably not be thrilled by the final settlement, but the value of that park bench, popcorn and soda will have skyrocketed by that time, so I will gladly accept the end, knowing it leads to the calm bench of peace while I daydream over the rest of the park map of my life ahead. 

Hoping you can find peace going forward, by looking back at where you've been,

SoT

SoT - that is a beautiful analogy and yes, I found myself remembering all those coaster days - not just the marriage but the actual coasters I've ridden - and I felt it.  Thank you.

"Imagine you are in a boat.  Walk towards the back of the boat and what do you see?  1) What is the wake of the boat? The rushing water is your past.  2) What is propelling the boat forward?  The present moment energy  3) Can the wake propel the boat forward?  No"  metaphor by Alan Watts 

The lesson is give up your personal history.  Your past can not dictate where your life goes - your family stories, experiences do not propel your boat forward.  All those events are just the past trail of your life.  Not your present moment energy.  Only the present moment energy is what propels the boat forward.

You are an amazing, caring, thoughtful, intelligent father and man.  You got this.

SoT and JKT, thanks for your kind words.

JKT, I am not really trying to go back all over my past and find reasons but to find myself. I think I have found enough to actually start knowing who I am, not the one I was before STBX but who I genuinely am. I always tried to fit in and find ways to fit in, but I have always gone my own way in the end. I realise that my entire journey with STBX was me going my way and her becoming a passenger. The bits she was in control over, the material bits, I could not care less about so it was always easy to let her have her way. The other bits, experiences, travel, work, food, everything, I was in charge of and she just tagged along, and tried to make it as difficult as possible. I have finally found something I can identify as, I think I am a Sigma Empath. WOW. It just explains it all, I am also an INTP which makes sense as it seems like Sigma consists of INTP and INTJ. This is almost a bigger lightbulb moment than when I started finding out about narcissism.

I also feel relieved to find something I identify with, that helped me individuate from the others I tried to fit in with.

I don't identify as an empath, but like you I identify as INTP. I am still in the process of "owning" what I am and sorting out what I want to embrace vs work on.

Interestingly, in my case, I have not found my husband to discourage those parts of me, but oddly enough, my mother (who tested as INTP with INTJ traits back in the 90s). I've noticed I feel shut down when I try to dive deep into a topic and grapple with it the way I like to think. I have some shame on that but feel so much better knowing I'm nit broken, just a particular personality type of which there are more out there - and additionally that even some non-INTPs can appreciate.

Well, all that is to say I personally think it's worthwhile to pusue, and if you're anything like me, after a while you'll feel satisfied that it makes sense to you (whether your understanding is fully correct or not) and move on to the next question, feeling increased in your overall understanding of the world.

Square, I feel it's very important to find out who I actually am. As for you, it really helps. Instead of trying to fit and and do what's expected, I now know why I always felt bad when doing so. I have always gone my own way, mor or less at least. When I have tried to fit in and follow someone else's rules it has gone terrible wrong, for me a fresh example is the court case with STBX. I was to deep down in the mud to act on behalf of myself and let my legal team drive things, even when I felt deep down it was wrong. The things I asked for to be done was not common practice and they ignored me, I should have stood my ground, but I was completely new in the legal world and not strong enough to fight them.

Yesterday I got overwhelmed with such strong feelings of anger against the whole system and how unfair everything is. To manage all the anger and keep it under control I had to take the edge of it with some of my unhealthy coping strategies. Today I feel, I need to channel that anger and not numb it, I need to channel it in to a fight, a fight driven by me. I need to be the mastermind behind the fight, but I need an alpha person to act on my behalf in the court room as I cannot string my sentences together and think fast enough when under pressure.

I was on my walk today and really got thinking and got a lot of missing pieces added together, I started walking with a smile and felt a lot of weight just lifted from my shoulders. Then a woman past me on the other side of the street, she looked at me and gave me a big smile. That made my day.

Quote from: escapingman on January 26, 2023, 09:44:15 AM

Yesterday I got overwhelmed with such strong feelings of anger against the whole system and how unfair everything is. To manage all the anger and keep it under control I had to take the edge of it with some of my unhealthy coping strategies. Today I feel, I need to channel that anger and not numb it, I need to channel it in to a fight, a fight driven by me.

EM - I know you don't mean an actual physical fight, but not for the first time when reading your posts I have wondered whether you have ever tried boxing. Hitting a heavy bag has been so therapeutic for me. Physically getting out some of the fight reaction in a safe way has been great. I wonder if it might help your daughter, too, if you were in a position to get a punch bag or find a gym that has one. Just a thought.

As for finding out who you actually are - I hear ya. I have no idea who I actually am and what I like.

I second the idea of EM joining a kickboxing or other martial Arts class with his DD.

Not only does it relieve tension, build core strength and build confidense it provides real world skills one doesn't get from spin class or weight machines.

Jumping rope before class, to warm up and build stamina, can be a miracle if one needs those things.

EM:

A couple of things I thought of while catching up on this thread:

Figuring out our causes and conditions leading to people pleasing, personal sabotage and feeling helpless to change our situations is important, BUT....
Learning to create enough emotional distance to see ourselves, our unhelpful strategies and places we might have turned off or avoided marriage to a PD is necessary to overcome and heal ourselves from within, esp our unconscious beliefs.

The rage you feel is both necessary and appropriate, as it can provide impetus to move out of an untenable situation.

It's not a good space to notice and identify our internal world, what's really going on for us and to cultivate a habit of calming our Nervous System to widen our window of resilience.

On the whole, anger is better than feeling shut down and paralysed, ime.

Next is noticing anger popping up, then choosing to have it or let it float by without grabbing onto it.

Every emotion is outside of who you were born to be.  You were born a perfect being, whole and amazing.

Emotions aren't you. 

The trick is, ime, remembering who you were born to be, before all the negative software was installed by your FOO.  That is who you are.....like the blue sky.  You're always present and available.

Understanding feelings are temporary and NOT who we are is huge.  One can notice them and let them pass.....like storms, clouds and fog......theblue sky is always present, even when feelings/the storm/fog/rain appear to be all there is.
Even though one has been trained up to believe their feelings are their personality and soul...... they're simply not.

Imagine how couemrt will go once you're able to identify the mission, issues and probable solutions without getting yanked off center by fear, anger, shut down and despair.....or maybe recovering from those feelings more quickly bc you're practicing awareness, noticing and leaving them or not picking them up in the first place.

You're learning peace isn't depebdent on what other people do to you.  Peace comes from your perceptions and ability to calm your Nervous System to fully integrate your brain with all its amazing skills and problem solving abilities....training your entire being to skip reactivity and distracting emotional rabbit holes in favor of emotional distance, the ability to remain or return to Observer mode, not take things personal in order to strategize and bring the legal game to check mate with economy of motion AND without muddying the already chaotic waters the PD is creating.

Standing outside the PD chaos, even when your children are suffering, is the ability to cultivate calm and spaciousness within.....to get your nose off that Pebble to restore your view of the entire playing field with allll it's other pebbles, rocks, trees and streams.....and of the blue sky.....of yourself.

Remembering who you were born to be comes with practe and everyone always practices, they never stop.  Even elderly monks practice every day and that's the journey, ime.

To practice, fall off the horse, remember how to put it away fearing into the future and despairing into the past to be here, now.  Here and now are all we ever have.  That's an important truth that goes in and out if focus during distressing times, but can you see how noticing your distress, practicing calming habits to restore brain integration and all your problem solving skills to best strategize is valuable in your situation ANY situation, really?

To KNOW you aren't the despair or rage or regret and turn back towards what's helpful and brings you joy after doing all you CAN do?

If you're going to get what you consider a less than optimal outcome.....would knowing the time you spend with yourself, your child and job/friends/work outs can be done through cultivating the ability to put all the stories you tell yourself, and esp the stories other people tell you, to restore your ability to enjoy what's in front of you now........
unmolested by your history or fear of what might happen.

Nothing outside of yourself will bring you peace, ime.

Blaming the toxic people won't bring peace either, ime. In fact, it keeps us hooked into feeding ourselves TO them.....gifting them our attention to our detriment, excluding joy, excluding focus on uplifting things and people.  Worst of all, ime, it prevents us from really SEEING our children, looking them in the eye and connecting without all the PD distractions, ime.

That's a regret I hope you can avoid, bc it's available to you now.  Every moment is a choice, EM.

Calming your Nervous Sysyem....learning to calm your Nervous System isn't about becoming a Zen master, meditating all the time.

IME, it's about cultivating ONE split second BEFORE reactivity carries one down an emotional rabbit hole.....where all one sees is the one vexing pebble bc one's nose is ON that Pebble, excluding the ability to SEE anything else, ime.

And it feels like alchemy or magic when one manages it.  Becomes aware of it.  Can SEE it, along with that vexing Pebble, ime.

It's just biochemistry and the ability to cultivate that split second before the biochemical hijack takes one down the fight it flight rabbit hole.

Sometimes I SEE it and choose that rabbit hole.  Sometimes I avoid it and choose calm.

Sometimes I still get swept into the hole without choice, but at least I'm aware and can cultivate and practice more choice around it.

No time to edit.  Excuse the errors and parts not making sense.

Thanks hhaw and narckiddo,

What this exercise of finding out I am a Sigma Empath, or INTP-A (or INFP as I seem to be close to) or maybe I am not a personality like this and only think I am. I don't know. But what I do know is that I need to put more trust in myself and go for my own beliefs. I often agree to do something I know is wrong or not the best way just because I can't be bothered to argue or upset the dynamic. I have to stop that.

Worst of all, ime, it prevents us from really SEEING our children, looking them in the eye and connecting without all the PD distractions, ime.
This is very difficult as I have no contact with GC and probably won't for a long time. That the SW supports that is what's making me incredible angry, not with STBX but the system. STBX is just a sad story that is in the past for me, if I saw her it would be like seeing a ghost.

Regarding martial art or boxing, great ideas but not possible right now due to a bad back. But I can't tell you how much it has improved since STBX moved out the house. I am now doing long walks every day which really helps clearing my head and also get some good thoughts going. I am about to join a gym but as hopefully we are moving in the next months I don't want to tie myself up in a gym at the wrong location.

EM, one of the things I have been grappling with is a sense of personal power.

I know a lot of people struggle with feeling disempowered but what I find for myself is that I do have a lot of power but feel uneasy about using it, that it would be wrong.

I'm trying to seperate this out into more nuance. Of course I believe it is wrong to exercise power over another person, to force or manipulate them into doing what I want, or subjugating them.

But I am finding I am quite able to keep my shit together when people are falling apart around me, and it feels uncomfortable in one way but totally natural in another. I've been giving myself permission to do it lately, and not just to do it but feel strong about it rather than ashamed.

Is this something you relate to at all? Do you feel like you know something but feel it would be too arrogant to calmly stand by your knowledge?

Do you feel like you have a wellspring of strength inside you but that it would be somehow wrong to wield it?

Seperate question, do you like your strong feelings, do they feel natural and right to you, or do they feel overwhelming and foreign? My kid feels very strongly and prefers to express them and enjoys the ups and downs. This feels right to her. For me, I have feelings and they are strong but much steadier, and I prefer to keep them to myself. I don't find it repressive, it just feels right to notice my feelings and add them to my considerations but not let them lead.

I used to express more because of cognitive dissonance and other factors, but I loathed it. How do you feel about it, do you feel like it's "you" to lean into your feelings, or do you hate it and feel like it's not your natural way?

No wrong answers, of course, whatever feels like "you" is the path to explore.

Going out into nature is its own therapy, ime. Good for you and DD.

I'll suggest the book PAIN FREE by Pete Egoscue.  It's what keeps me walking normally.  Not miracles, but ways to troubleshoot pain and bodily malfunction with static exercises designed to shorten and lengthen muscles, tendons and ligaments to align one's skeleton.

You can buy it used on Amazon.  I have a copy I carry with me and often gift it to friends and loved ones.  Last week I found my 20yo DD on her back, knees raised in my favorite and most helpful pose, bc her lower back finally drove her to seek help from the book she'd resisred up to that point.  Sometimes I have to assume that position for over an hour....sometimes 2 hours, but it always brings relief.

I wish I had the discipline to go through all the exercises daily for self care and to keep my body aligned opposed to using it to troubleshoot problems.

I am starting to get quite annoyed with DD, I am trying to move on with our lives but she does everything to hold me back. I just arranged for her to have sleepover at her best friends house and she complains and wants to be with me. Last time she had a sleepover at another friends house she complained about the mother and says she doesn't want to go there again. She keep coming to me wherever I am and wants my attention, she has completely stopped going out seeing friends. As much as I love her I need some space from her at least sometimes, I need some alone time to recharge my batteries but only get it when she is in school, but then I need to work so I either have to forfeit work to get it or else I am not getting it at all. How can I get her to get out of the house and see friends without throwing her out? I am getting worn down and also worried about her.

This sounds to me like seperation anxiety.

She may not be aware of it.

I have all the sympathy in the world for your introverted need to recharge because boy do I feel the same way.

I think you need to prioritize addressing the seperation anxiety so that you both get what you need rather than trying to force something where neither of you really get what you need.

I had written a post previously with a method of CBT for seperation anxiety that was successful for me and my kid. My kid is 17 and still has vestiges of it, but because she feels safe and in control, she keeps pushing herself iusing the method. Just last week a situation came up where she was asked to drive people she doesn't really know to a place she wasn't at all familiar with, without a parent. Previously that would have been a Hell No but on her own she asked me to go with her on a prior day to practice the drive, then when the day came she went with no fuss.

It's worth it to take the time and effort to grapple with this in a way that avoids her having to resort to unhealthy coping mechanisms like causing troyble, lying, etc. She's a good girl, she has panic attacks and needs you to guide her through this.

Square, that might be it. Or she is worried I won't come back. Last time when I left for 2 days for work she was catastrophising before and was talking if I had an accident and got killed and what would happen to her if that happened. She said if that happened she would not want to go back to live with her mum. But I also think it's one of the things with the times that the kids nowadays are sitting at home on their phones and just watch tiktok and have conversations online. But she needs out a bit, I know she enjoys being out with friends, but it seems to just not happen right now. This will be a couple of though months for her (and me) anyway as we are going to find somewhere else to live and move, she seems excited about it but might worry as well.

Seperation anxiety includes worry that you might not come back.

The TikTok generation may have more issues with it, but that doesn't make it less of a struggle for her. She's not out to ruin your life, she's a child trying to cope.

She does indeed need to get out and have friends and so on. I'm suggesting you work with her on that so she can handle it without resorting to extreme behaviors. The rollback on triggering activities is temporary and partial, and the emphasis is on giving her the tools to manage things rather than "oh well, give up, give in, let her run everything" - which is definitely the wrong move.

"that doesn't make it less of a struggle for her. She's not out to ruin your life, she's a child trying to cope." I agree with this.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 28, 2023, 01:12:52 PM
"that doesn't make it less of a struggle for her. She's not out to ruin your life, she's a child trying to cope." I agree with this.

I do know that, but it's not making it easier.

This might have been asked and answered, and if so, I apologize for not seeing it. Do you have a therapist, escapingman? I found it helpful to go back to my therapist (whom I first started to see when I was a teenager) when my own children were struggling as preteens and teens.

Poison, I did have one. She was alright but not what I need now. I am planning to get another through my health insurance, but the renewal is quite soon and I will wait until then to avoid spiraling costs.

Therapy is expensive. I understand waiting.

I got her out the house today and she is spending some time with a friend, I am not sure if it was her or the friend who instigated it but I am pleased.

I am having a lot of thoughts about how to move forward and how to proceed with everything. I think the girls are old enough to start fighting their own battles, at least a bit, me dragging this back to court will with 99% chance end up the same as the system is corrupt, and my bank account will be empty. My current best bet is to just live my best life with DD and hope that STBX lose interest in turning GC against me and that GC will want to reach out. It's a difficult one and I am not sure there are any right answers. My other option is to completely expose STBX, but I really don't know what that could lead to and what she would be capable of doing. I have enough recordings to completely ruin her reputation, maybe getting that threat through to MIL as she would be extremely worried about being dragged through the mud.

I am not coping very well with this, trying to pack away items (stbx is a hoarder) and clean the house ready for selling it. I feel like I am moving stuff from one room to another and then DD comes and make a mess and I move the items back to the first room etc. I have taken all her items I find all over the house and put in her room and told her to please start sorting it and that I will help her in the end but her room will be my last, she absolutely kicked off started swearing at me for how dare I put stuff in her room. DD really don't understand we are packing up for selling and moving. I am also struggling to move any of the heavier boxes due to my back problems. But I suppose, it doesn't really matter if I am done next week or in a month, but I just want to move on.

Dealing with stuff in the house, some mine but mostly family members', has always been difficult for me. I'm not a hoarder, ex is, and our children don't hoard but have a lot of stuff and don't live here anymore. The house is finally relatively clean and neat, but it took me a long time to reach this condition.

I'd like to gently point out you're repeating patterns around communicating and holding boundaries with your DD.

If you do some research, find a way to internalize new habits and get consistent with them.....DD will likely blossom before your eyes....like magic, ime.

It's not easy to stop patterns and begin new habits, esp when they feel so strange and counterintuitive, ime, but your DD and peace is worth the time and effort.

When and uf you're ready, the book The Parallel Process will walk you through the basics, but it's taken me steady support from my T to really get it.

Yesterday my DD20 popped into my bedroom, explained her recent research regardi,g her mental health care, stated her decision, action taken and was so excited and, more importantly, wasn't snarky or asking me to solve her problems for her, which had veen the case BEFORE my T bucked me up and gave me the words to counter that.

"What do you plan to do about that?"

DD20 didn't say anything.  She got busy, found her iwn answers and it's exciting and confidence building for her, opposed to shooting diwn all my suggestions and opinions (she asked me for!!)

T said I was carrying her problems with her, enmeshed and DD20 was projecting her pain onto me....Im a very safe target.  So are you....our children understand this.

By stepping back, hand I,g my DD responsibility for herself I take myself 9ut if the equation so she's left with herself, her consequences and finding solutions.....learning to navigate her emotions without me trying to shield or fix.

It's sebding the message I believe in her OR the message she can't do anything on her own and needs me to help her navigate the wirld and get emotions.

I must tell you, when I put a healthy boundary in place my girls show immediate improvement in energy, respectful treatment if me and they take initiative in their lives.

Like alchemy, EM.

Doing what you've been doing will get you more of what you have.

Mining new information and ways to understand it could lead to better mental health for you and your children, ime.

Not gonna lie.....it's difficult to wrap your mind around New ways of being, after so many years of co Dependence and familiar dance steps everyone knows.

Just saying......ststing a boundary then remaining calm, no matter what your child says or does, provides a safe contauner for your DD to learn how to manage hard emotions.  Kids need and want that.

From a codependent mother's perspective, the need I had for my DDs to BE OK, in order for me to be OK, was a very heavy burden for my kids to carry.

I learned I can be ok, even when my kids aren't.

I learned overcoming reactivity set me up to be responsive and to respond to my girls in the most helpful way possible, which means I no longer get dragged down emotional roller coasters with my children.

Or stop for them to have those hard feelings and for me to remain at a distance, emotionally.

So you know....there have been times where I felt like a sociopath......bc newly created emotional distance isnt just counter intuitive. 

My subconscious belief system made it difficult to wrap my mind around creating distance and alliwing my daughter's to suffer without jumping in and trying to fix it.....just a really destructive message AND my kids could see their distress created distress in me, which makes it difficult for my youngest to ask for help she can accept. 

You might not be able to figure every dynamic out right now, but you can likely gain huge relief for DD and yourself by trying out healthy boundary setting, taking yourself out of the child's problem solving equation and cultivating enough emotional spaciousness to avoid reactivity
and
discover responsiveness, which is really more
choice and the ability to discern between those choices.

Reactivity is reacting the way you've always reacted....without having a second to consider other, more productive, options.

Survival brain kicks in and all choice goes out the window.  That's biology.

Practicing healthy boundaries won't change you.....but your DD should immediately notice and begin feeling safer if you're consistent with holding them.

That feeling, for you and your DD, will be an amazing prick in how your home and relationship function, EM....ime, of course.

Not easy, but certainly doable.

Great replies, thanks.

I left DD for 5 minutes and did some breathing, then talked through it with her and now all is good. She asked for a cuddle as well. She is really healing, a couple of months ago this would have escalated into her screaming and kicking. I think we both are moving in the right direction, but it's hard work when all the extra stress is on.

I put some scary search conditions in and got some really scary and for me accurate results. I will link below, I don't really know where the article really comes from but it is almost describing me down to a T. It is about how INTP deals with domestic abuse.

https://funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com/post/158454453740/the-effect-of-emotional-abuse-on-each-type-intp

I did not see a section on INTP and abuse. I saw an anecdotal description of a successful relationship with INTP, and a description of effect of abuse on a different MBTI type. Did I miss it? INTPs want to know.

Square, I am sure it was about INTP. I copy the text and put it below.

INTP

There will be some variation depending on when the abuse took place in their life but there are some things that will remain the same.

Okay so, INTP's lead with Ti. This means that during the abuse an INTP will often detach themselves from the situation and by doing so allow themselves to get through it. Unlike the Te doms however, they do not compartmentalize, in that they will not get through a day of school or work only to fall apart at times when they are alone. Instead they will learn to detach themselves at all times meaning that when they are in the situation they will often not truly 'feel' it. This can also manifest itself in excessive alcohol or drug use as this does technically distance someone from the reality of their home life, but it is far less common in INTP's than ISTP's.

This means that during the time of the abuse they will be even more introverted and removed from reality than a healthy INTP would be. They will remove themselves in any way they can, excessive reading, watching TV or playing video games is common, anything that means they can for want of a better phrase 'enter another world.' To others they will often come across as cold or anti-social as they are placing so much emphasis on not feeling what is happening. This will lead to an underdeveloped Fe and if the abuse goes on for a long time this will lead to a resentment of Fe not only in themselves but in other people. They tend to go into a judgmental mode when others seem to be leading with Fe or at least those who hold ethics over what is logically consistency.

image
The thing about this however is that it can easily create a negative cycle. What an abusive person wants is to cut you off from other people and by the INTP behaving in this way it becomes hard for them to form strong or deep relationships with other people anyway. They become closed off, spend more time with the abuser and therefore get even more closed off.

So, in short, the main way that abuse will affect an INTP will be that they cling onto their Ti with everything they have; their other functions are of course utilized but they are underdeveloped and extremely limited.

Once they are out of the abusive situation they tend to go into a shock mode, meaning they do everything they used to do into day-to-day life and keep to their usual routine (Si) but they tend to do so with a blank mind. Next comes the Fe, often a grip. This will take a few weeks/months to get to but when it hits, it hits hard. They've got however many months or years of actually connecting to the lower function on a serious level as well as dealing with what happened to them.

While this does happen for most Ti doms within the first few months, some don't accept this. They stay in the over powered Ti state, the issue with this is that (particularly if the abuser was in their life for years) the only way to truly get better from anything is to fall apart first so you can put yourself  back together, something that can be a bit challenging  for Ti doms to get themselves to do.

Thank you! Legally blind and can be visially disoriented in unexpected ways (it's hella weird). Reading now.

Yeah, I can relate to that. I have withdrawn from the world. Have no friends. Distract mysef easily with reading and stuff like that.

I tried to solve the issues with Ti, and while I went the wrong way initially, I ended up in the right place.

For me, some of the worst was just the pure illogic of the verbal abuse. It actually hurt my mind. I could handle nasty but true or true-ish or I-can-see-how-you-think-so stuff, but double binds and gaslighting made me lose it because it made no sense. I feel much better being able to find the sense by stepping back - the words are illogicsl but the intention is, while maladaptive as all hell, bound to something unrelated to the words.

I don't know what it's like to come out of it because I'm just in a weird hibernation state.

Square, it was actually quite frightening to read as I can relate so much. I have like you become even more isolated, I spend all time possible watching videos and overthink what to do. I play out all scenarios in my mind, but I don't action on them as I can't control the logic of the script. I had to withdraw from the court case as I saw no possible chance of winning with the current judge and social worker, why should I plunge money into a system that is only built for extracting money? I can see the logic in having to completely fall apart to rebuild, but I never allow myself to fall apart so this won't happen. I spent so much time in the relationship with STBX to escape the reality, I am now stuck in still escaping it. I would need someone who turned up here and pulled me up by my bootstraps and forced me to take action, but I have no support system so no one will do that - I will have to find it in myself to do it. I can't hide from the fact and I have to do it, but I am used to it. I am often thrown in to situations I really don't like with work, asked to do something I am not comfortable with, I then sit in a freeze kind of state just staring at the tasks not being able to start, but then when it becomes critical and I either have to surrender or just get them done I always find some energy and get them done, often I even enjoyed it in the end.

As an INTP I don't think the conventional advice really works for how to heal. I am easy distracted and also tries to find the logic in what to do. I struggle to feel emotional at times when people expect me to break down in tears because I haven't seen GC for so long, I instead now the exact reason and try to find the magic keyword to get her back. I know that crying for her won't help me, but I have cried and it felt good, but it's rare that I allow myself to cry. I also find it very difficult of how to talk to other people of my situation, as I know they won't understand and then I have to manage them in how much I tell. I think I got a massive blow as I opened up to one new friend and then I got told she could not talk anymore. I am not sure I can open up again and risk being left vulnerable and with no support. Same with the therapist I had, I felt she didn't really understand me and kept saying she was sorry for my situation and how I must feel when I didn't feel that way. I don't think I trust a therapist to know how to heal myself more than I do myself.

I don't want to be a victim, I don't want anyone to think of me as a victim, I just want to move on.

Square, it's called procrastination and it's what we INTP do all the time. I found a good article of how to overcome it, not sure it's as easy as that but I get it. We need to get our act together and do what we need to do. I can see I am procrastinating right now with the house, I have got it into my thinking that I need the house to be 100% perfect before having any viewings, but with this mindset there will be no viewings because I will never have the house 100% perfect.


https://www.truity.com/blog/how-intps-can-overcome-procrastination-good

Ha, yes, the procrastination. If there is a deadline, I will meet it - just. For things with no external deadline, it can be hard. And then, yes, we end up in this freeze state for that reason sometimes.

Interesting that you mentioned needing someone to push you. I crave that in my life in general, I don't need much, just the gentlest nudge. But I'm totally on my own in that, like you.

I have been told "you're overthinking it" and such, and maybe I'm wrong but I don't agree. I've made a lot of progress thinking, and made a lot of changes to myself based on it. I've got your back on that.

Quote from: square on January 30, 2023, 09:08:41 AM
Ha, yes, the procrastination. If there is a deadline, I will meet it - just. For things with no external deadline, it can be hard. And then, yes, we end up in this freeze state for that reason sometimes.

Oh yes, always meet the external deadlines but as you say just. If I have a workshop with a customer on a Friday afternoon and I have all week to prepare, I don't start preparations until Friday 10am and then do 8 hours work in 2 hours and wing the meeting. I would get more and more anxious about the meeting all week until I finally start the prep work. I know not to do it but just can't help myself. Today I got feeling and cleared all the boxes in the kitchen in 30 minutes before a meeting, the boxes has been there staring at me all weekend! I suppose this is also one of the reasons it took so long to get the divorce started, I kept delaying it and could not get anything done without a lawyer basically doing it all for me.

Saaaaaaame with the work deadlines and such. And damn, I always knew better - but anyway, would get it done well nevertheless.

I have been procrastinating dealing with a marital issue for, oh, a year. There is an external deadline. Sigh.

Maybe next week.

I am just about to collapse, at least now I know what it is. I am desperately clearing the house, but I am not good at it and I don't know where to put stuff so it takes time. But as soon as I have cleared a room DD makes a mess of it, I am taking one step forward and then one back and have to redo the same every day. She just doesn't get it, I had washed the beddings in the guest room ready for the room to look nice, DD decides she is moving out of her room and into the guest room and goes straight to bed with makeup on. Oh the joy. I am going to just have the house in a far from perfect state during viewings, if not there will not be any viewings at all.

You're moving house? Do you suppose DD (subconsciously?) doesn't want to move or is scared of moving? Do you know where you are planning to move to yet? I'm just wondering if maybe you need to try to get DD fully on board with a move and see if you can engineer some excitement in her about that. In which case she would have an incentive to help the move and might be better about not making messes.

Quote from: NarcKiddo on January 31, 2023, 07:15:36 AM
You're moving house? Do you suppose DD (subconsciously?) doesn't want to move or is scared of moving? Do you know where you are planning to move to yet? I'm just wondering if maybe you need to try to get DD fully on board with a move and see if you can engineer some excitement in her about that. In which case she would have an incentive to help the move and might be better about not making messes.

Yes, or we are going to sell and then find somewhere to move to. DD is really excited about it and is helping me look for houses, but if I am unorganised she is completely unorganised and absent minded. As STBX used to shout at her whenever she was doing something wrong, however minor it was, and TBH most of the time she wasn't even doing anything wrong, I am struggling to tell her right from wrong as she immediately go into a state and deep down expects abuse. She is getting better, but it's hard to try to teach her things when she reacts like that. I was very angry with her this morning (after she left for school) but I managed to channel that into energy I used to clear it all up AGAIN. I also arranged for the photos of the house to be taken, they will be done at the arranged day and time whatever the state of the house, if I don't have a deadline I will never finish.

escapingman
show your daughter pics of houses for sale on realtor.com
the ones that look perfect sell in a day or two
if not, it takes a while

if you have "too" much, you could get a storage pod which some people have done in our neighborhood when selling....they take away your extra stuff & store
I don't know if they load it up for you or not.....imagine they would

Thanks Jolie, I have managed to get most into the garage so should be OK. The real struggle for me is my lower back, after spending 2 hours this morning I was done, I couldn't do a bit more. So even with storage, I would really struggle to get the boxes there, but I will need to remove my things before I let STBX in to get hers. I am going to let her have most as I don't want to argue with her and just don't want to much of the things she bought for us. I think monetary we will get an equal split of the stuff as it looks like I am taking a very expensive piece of furniture and her the rest (planned by her to get as much items as possible).

Me and DD are looking online all the time, I have seen a few places that probably will fit the bill. DD seen something she would like but it literally has no garden and I would really like one to potter in. I was not allowed to do anything in the garden as STBX created an argument every time I tried. But I am so desperate to move on so if there are no houses available I put all items in storage and stay in a local B&B or hotel.

I have slowly got through the packing, cleaning and moving stuff around. I have suffered enormously with my procrastination but now when I am at the homerun (managed to eventually get myself to clean the bathroom) I feel really good. Only one room left to really clear out and then just hovering and polishing etc. Why do I do this all the time? I could have been finished months ago and I knew this time was coming. 

Just embrace it, feel good about what you've done!

I bet if you had someone to help you not kill your back it would have been different.

Well YAY! Now just get it into your mind that you'll go looking for something and it won't be where you think, or you may not be able to find it at all. It's okay. You'll figure it out. It's just stuff. Don't allow yourself or your DD to panic or meltdown or get wound up in it. It will happen.

I am going to ramp up the looking and start viewings as soon as I have got over this first hurdle, I know which area to look in as DD need to be within reasonable distance to her school. It gives me quite a big area to look in so should be OK. I am also prepared to stay in a hotel for a while just to get us out of here, looking at it financially it makes no real difference to costs, it's just not the best for DD long term. STBX is going to have loads of demands on her house so doubt she will even buy anything, that would be terrible for GC, but it's not anything I am involved in so I will leave that.

EM:

Consider documenting:
1.  Attempt to procure mental health care for DD (presumably you documented your concern for GC and belief T is necessary for her, as it is for DD, considering the most powerful evidence proving your statement.   (I'd consider providing  top 3 or 5 pieces of evidence WITH that documentation, send it to my Attorney, for my file and perhaps to the SW for that file.)  Top 3 pieces if evidence would include the best recorded instances of PD abuse where GC is involved, along with top 2 instances of GC being failed by SW/whomever ignored/minimized or presented as willfully ignorant as the primary cause for failure to protect GC.  Just the facts, sans judgment.

You always have the option to document for future court battles to position for the best possible outcome in that Courtroom.

I want to give my perspective on DD acting out/breaking down/generally creating distress for you.

I think DD is asking for help to feel safe and not so out of control.  Suicidal ideation is reason enough to find help, likely in anyone's book.  Certainly in mine.  DD is asking you for help and she's asking for different help than you've been able to give her, thus far, imo.

IME, when children receive what they've been getting, in terms of support that lead to their inability to regulate emotions and feel safe, children escalate their request with behavior changes, bc they don't know what they need.  They only know they're not ok....theyre suffering....thingscare going to get much wirse, if they don't get better.

Worse, meaning....
Eating disorders
Self harm/cutting/addictions/
promiscuity/stealing/
complete break down in communication with authority figures/trying on opposite personas,  letting grades go, refusing school, among many.  Some are ways my children acted out and some are ways I've witnessed other children act out while working with 8ther families in wilderness camp and tgerapeutic boarding school.

From experience, I can say I wish I found the focus and strength to make changes before my children gave up on me and looked for ways to control their lives, which adds another layer of harm and harmful coping strategies the kids have to unlearn, opposed to getting help to 0ut healthier strategies in place BEFORE the stakes are higher.

I was barely coping, as If always coped.  I had no ability to understand, research or change my strategies, even though I'd had the girls in therapy for a while.  I failed to keep it up AND mist if all bc my girls wanted help from ME.  They asked, straight out, for it many times before the wheels came off.

I think your DD is asking you for healthy boundaries and follow through, which isn't what you've been giving, EM....ime.

I believe you need DD to "be ok" in order for you to be ok.

That's a lit to carry for any child.  It's too much for your DD.

The question becomes, in my mind, can you notice how it feels to rise above your child's despair and remain responsive, while she has her toughest emotions, so you're able to respind, hold boundaries calmly and provide the safe container DD needs to work through her despair and toughest emotions?

The difference between reacting the way you've been conditioned to react.....
before realizing you're reacting....

And stopping for one split second to notice choices BEFORE reacting us EVERYTHING, EM.

I think it's the difference between helping you and your child/ren begin to heal abd replace defeating patterns OR continuing patterns that got you where you are.

No disrespect.  I understand the stress you're under.  So many balls in the air. 

It's just addressing the mental health ball, ime, would make juggling easier, all around, for you and DD...and maybe save you and DD from suffering 100x worse than you might at 100x the expense, time and trauma.

Surely forensic child Ts are practicing in the UK.....hopefully one's specialuzing in trauma and somatic therapy.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound if cure and all that.

That!
I used to leave parent therapy sessions shaking and in shock after listening to the horror stories other parents were living with th their children.  Some if those kids were 14yo, so the problems were in place well before.

It's shocking to find out how simple the necessary changes in our parenting really are.

It's shocking to feel how alien and counterintuitive it feels to MAKE the necessary changes with communication, boundaries abd hoding boundaries while taking ourselves out if the child's way, but it comes down to that, ime.

Asking for help, persevering through the discomfort of making change....
THAT would be THE most beneficial, life changing action a parent might/could focus on.....
even if it feels something will snap if they try, ime.

It's the key to getting one's head above water.  When the parents get above water, chances the children will increase.  I always see immediate ease and improvement for my kids when I right my boat.








It doesn't get easier.

It gets more difficult, more dangerous and more exponentially more expensive as time goes by AND you have no control once they're 18yo.

Waiting to get a

DD got another tantrum yesterday, it gets longer between them, but I think she engineered it and wanted me to be her scapegoat. I got incredible triggered, but I handled it reasonable well but not perfect. She screamed and slammed doors and accused me of stealing a piece of paper from her room (She either lost it herself or more likely hid it and used it as the reason). I had one fight response I could not stop in time and that was slamming the door when leaving her room, this after telling her off for slamming the doors  :doh:  But I then went to my room and listened to music concentrating on breathing until I was out of the response. When I didn't give DD the reaction she wanted she calmed down quite quick and then went to bed. This morning she was swearing at me before going to school, not sure if she is cross with me for not engaging or if she is embarrassed. I hope she comes home from school in a better state. In the past I would be in a bad state now and ruminating over how she treated me and why she behaved like she did, but I am no longer going to have someone else dictate how I feel. Yes it is my daughter and I am concerned, but to be concerned and upset about her behaviour doesn't mean I have to wallow in misery.

hhaw, I listen to the audiobook you recommended. It was very good and have a lot of ideas I already started to adapt. I definitely had a lot of use of it yesterday, thanks for the recommendation (and persistence in telling me to read it).

SO glad you got through the book, EM!!

Maybe listen to it in the background as you work on the house.,,,,lots to take in!!!

Allowing DD to have her difficult feelings, without getting yanked down the rabbit hole with her, will help her feel safe and allow you to be responsive with access to more choices......a little success feels like a warm lantern lighting the way in a very cold darkness, btw.

Just keep reminding yourself.....change feels wrong, but it brings relief and healing so hang in there.

Maybe write out the top new habits you intend to work on....wriring it out will help you internalize them and you can read when switched into survival mode.....a touchstone, of sorts,

DD might appear to resist, but kids want that safe container.  She should respond positively once she believes you'll be consistent.  She needs you to be level and ok.

It feels like this, for me....
DD fires an emotionally charged statement over my bow.....
I hold....,
Hold.......
Hold......
Hold......,
I have a chance to NOTICE all my thoughts and typical reactions, bc I'm not acting on them.

It's the second I need to notice other choices and consider them BEFORE reacting,  I choose a response instead to help DD help herself and help myself.  Lately I validating DD's childhood experiences while reminding us both...,I did my best.  I don't ask her for validation or to forgive me...I validate her experience.

I know I shouldn't require I feel better through my children....transferring agtession, insistingDD's experience wasn't what she claims, slamming things, blurting a truth are off the table in favor of looking my child in the eyes with compassion, repeating back what she just said, word for word so she feels understood. 

If appropriate, I might ask her what she's going to do to solve her problem.....
Hold....
Hold.....
Hold.....allowing time for her to let the weight of that sink in.  No trying to solve it or help.....I take myself out of the thing so DD feeis her responsibility and consequences
on
her
own....without focusing on me.

It's part editing, part sitting with my discomfort without putting any on DD's plate.  Part handling my strong emotions so DD learns how to do it too.

Internally noticing and validating my feelings in place of reacting, sort of.

When you went to your room to cool off..,,that was great. 

How did it feel to face her again?

It's taken me awhile to face the discomfort and talk about it.....bc my avoidance is my default.  I find journaling helpful to distill my feelings down and find clarity enough to remain calm during the next chat.  Having a good T has been immensely helpful.

I always found it easy to apologiz, when the girls were young,  for raising my voice...then askibg girls for better ideas on how I could have handled it, etc....that was easy.  Lessons were easier to model then.  I, like yourself, have been rather shellshocked through the years so boundaries are the way back to center
every
time or discussing what I fear....the things tied to unconscious beliefs about myself, the old critical tapes others installed THAT I BUY into, even a little creating the biochemical hijack......is impossible, ime.  I won't try if I'm not able to find and calmly state boundaries.  I go calm down THEN go back in, as you did.

I cut myself lots if slack too, EM.  I treat myself like I treat my daughter's......its a huge shift to always be on your own side.

If I cry....I thinks it's terrifying for my youngest,  I assure her it's ok to cry, I'm ok, it's human and she can cry and be ok too. 

We don't slam doors in our house or yell, so that's different.....that was my brother's wife in our family.. We tend to get overwhelmed and shut diwn in our house, but recently my youngest can be calmly cruel and I've stopped allowing it....boundaries are key. 

Its safer when I remember boundaries, practice them and remain level.  I think children are terrified when they register despair, anger or  reactivity in a parent....they need us to be ok.

My youngest held her mental health and needs under water, bc she felt I couldn't handle them and be ok, myself.

It came out sideways then spiraled......now we're leveling out.....both of us, but those boundaries .....theyre there to keep everyone emotionally safe, EM.

Challenge your discomfort and be willing to sit in it.

It's worth it.

Ah, one more thing.

When your DD is angry and blaming you for her stuff.......she's likely projecting onto you.

Gently stepping out of the way, letting her know you believe in her ability to handle herself is where she learns how capable she truly is.

She needs you to believe first.

DD came home from school happy and beaming, she had her piece of paper she had lost and screamed about yesterday....... her friend had taken it by mistake as they had taken each others books!

Glad to hear it, EM.