Out of the FOG

 :aaauuugh:

Thanks to this community including all you wonderful people I finally found the strength to file! Now the real battle will start.

Thank you all!

It doesn't ever feel quite correct to celebrate this moment. But dammit, you have found the strength and the courage to do something important for you and for your children. It is a path towards a better life for -- perhaps -- many people. So congratulations to you.

And yes: keep your wits about you. This really will be hard. But now you are doing and going to get done with a hard thing. And that is a worthy goal, and better than fretting over a hard thing never ventured at.

Well done, you.

Good for you!
Stay here, all the great people here have your back!
I recommend the book Splitting by Bill Eddy and Randy Kreger. It should help you know what to expect and how to cope.
Keep your chin up and stay strong. So proud of you

Wow. Well done

I think your biggest battle, the one against the FOG, is actually behind you now.  You have endured such emotional turmoil these last few months as you grappled with guilt, shame, confusion and fear. Now you know what you are doing, that it is THE RIGHT THING for you and your girls and that it is going in one direction only.

My feeling about your stbx is that the may rage but she is much more likely to go down the victim/waif road, specially where the children are concerned. So have yourself a list of her most excessive and toxic behaviours to hand, at all times, to remind you not to cave in to the inevitable pity party that will ensue.

One foot in front of the other EM.

This is good news.

Congratulations on such a brave move, I am in awe.

In the end I decided to just go for it without even telling her, it won't make any difference anyway. Let's see how she reacts when she gets the paperwork, but it's not my problem and nothing I can do anything about so I just leave that. From now on she can talk to my solicitor, any practial things with the kids can be sorted by email or messages. It hasn't really sunk in yet, but I am already starting to feel liberated.

I'm sure she will demand you to explain whyyyyyyy.

The catch is that she will not accept any explanation. It's a JADE trap. Don't bother.

I agree with Starboard Song that it doesn't feel quite right to celebrate someone filing for divorce, but sometimes when you're faced with two bad options you have to choose the least bad option.  So, kudos to you for being bold and making this move.  And in all reality, filing to end an abusive situation is not a bad option, it's the first step to creating a better life for you and your kids and that should be celebrated.

Yes, keep things in writing, and keep communication between the attorneys.  That buffer will help you greatly in keeping your head on straight during the storm.

I've said this before but I'll say it again.  Be prepared for anything, the PD will not go quietly.  When I filed - the amount of her attacks through her attorney and the kids, juxtaposed by her hoovering was unreal and it was very stressful never knowing what to expect.  But looking back now there was absolutely nothing to it, just noise.  Not a single thing that my exPDw did in the early days of our divorce had a lasting effect on the outcome. 

Keep your eye on the prize and don't let anything make you doubt yourself or change course.  Be the strong and stable one for your kids, and don't be hard on yourself if you aren't the greatest parent at times.  I certainly had my bad moments, it's very hard to always remain calm during the turmoil.  The kids will figure things out and become happier quicker than you think, so just be there for them.  The rough times will pass and eventually you'll all be happier than you could have imagined.

I agree with all of the above.

What a brave move and it stinks it has to happen.  Be prepared for the martyr/waif/poor poor me routine.  My ex did that and many many people bought it.

Here is to peaceful days in your future!

STBX  is now into day 3 if the silent treatment of me and SG. Sad thing is how she involves GC on her side. Reality will hit her hard soon.

Good for you EM! Do you know when she will be served with the papers? Do you plan to stay in the home or get a place of your own? No matter what happens and how hard it is, let the knowledge that you are doing right by your children be your strength.

Quote from: Joga on January 26, 2022, 03:39:35 PM
Good for you EM! Do you know when she will be served with the papers? Do you plan to stay in the home or get a place of your own? No matter what happens and how hard it is, let the knowledge that you are doing right by your children be your strength.

Solicitor says about a week, but she suggests that she should send an email beforehand telling STBX what's going on and suggest her to be part of the process. The good thing with this is I can say exact when this would be done, probably tomorrow or Friday, and be out of the house when it happens. I will wait and see the reaction from her if she leaves or not, I would prefer if she left, but if she doesn't I will have to leave. My scapegoated girl keeps asking me if we can move (unaware if the filing) as she can't stand being in the house with two bullies, at the moment I am fighting a lost battle with the golden child. I have found a couple of suitable places in the right area if we need to go, but to be honest I rather live in a shed than like this.

EM:
You'll feel better, stronger and more like yourself sooner by limiting and hopefully ending contact with the stbx.

You shouldn't have to hear her voice.  All contact needs to be text or OFW so it's documented and non intrusive to your Nervous System.

You'll be modeling self care and healthy boundaries for your children with these decisions.  Remember, enforcing boundaries is just as important as stating boundaries.  Don't allow stbx to inch over the first boundary, bc ....you send the message it's a matter of when, not if, you'll give in.

Expect her to escalate and don't hesitate to enforce every boundary and consequence stbx brings on herself.

You can't save the stbx, but you can save yourself and your children..... you're obligated to, so no hesitation.

And keep breathing.  I'm so relieved for ((SG.))

Thank you all for your support, it means a lot for me!

Next step is to physically separate from STBX, it is unbearable to be in the same house as her. I will give her the opportunity to leave first, but if she doesn't I will have to leave, SG has already begged me to leave not knowing what I am up to. The house is a war zone at the moment, this even before STBX knowing I have filed, she is into day 4 of silent treatment of SG and me, she only speak to either when she feel the urge to complain about something. What saddens me is that she is constantly complaining to GC about both of us having her joining in on STBX's side. I keep asking GC if she wants to be part of things I and SG do but she just screams in my face to F*** O**. I try to stay positive with her an joke, but I can't do more than wait for her to hopefully come round. SG is so wise for her age, she knows what her mum is doing and she told me into details about what is happening, she told me her mum won't speak to her until she apologise, and when she apologise her mum will feel validated that she was right and therefor see no fault in her behaviour, and then do the same again next time she make something up. I just love that girl.

I am so glad I filed, I can't believe I did it in the end.

Congrats to you Escapingman!  🙌🏼

I look forward to reading on this thread, about your continued forward movement.  Thoughts and prayers for your determination of steady unfolding, forward-movement plans, while you utilize the Out of the FOG toolbox and the law to its fullest extent.

SoT

It's frustrating to watch, but being Out of the FOG is bliss. Exactly as per the script, the started speaking to SG again, and whilst GC desperately tried to to pick more fights to get STBX on her side she was painted black and now the roles are temporary switched and GC is SG and SG is GC. Me and SG could see this coming and we talked about it, she is aware. But poor GC has no clue, she is completely in the FOG and I just don't know how to save her. She is behaving in the way she got positive attention yesterday, but today it doesn't work as STBX has changed the rules.

I have had a lot of feelings today following the filing, I am sad, upset and feel bad about the coming divorce. But, I just have to remind myself that whilst I have all those feelings, there is nothing I can do to change STBX or the situation and it is 100% down to her that I have filed. It is not possible to live in the complete chaos that she has created, all I can do is sit and watch, as soon as I try to interfere GC screams at me. I can't tell her off as STBX stands behind me smirking and laughs. When SG misbehaves, I can't tell her off either as she gets a panic attack that STBX would overhear me telling her off and come and tell her off as well.

I am so glad I found this community, I would never have been where I am without you all.

We all take great joy in seeing one of our online friends finally get their lives back, whether it's through leaving, or finding a better way to stay. We are truly pulling for you, and wish the best for you and your girls. And I think we all also hope that your STBX will find a way to get herself the help she needs, but that, as always, has to be on her.
I wonder if there's a book that you can get for your girls that would help them understand what is going on with their Mom. That way, it doesn't come from you, and they can't say they were influenced by you. They can read it privately, or maybe just parts of it. All on their own time. Unfortunately, I don't know if one exists, but I'm going to guess there's one out there. They must be so confused. 
Maybe one of your Out of the FOG friends has a recommendation.
As always, stay strong and follow your path

Quote from: losingmyself on January 27, 2022, 02:29:06 PM
We all take great joy in seeing one of our online friends finally get their lives back, whether it's through leaving, or finding a better way to stay. We are truly pulling for you, and wish the best for you and your girls. And I think we all also hope that your STBX will find a way to get herself the help she needs, but that, as always, has to be on her.
I wonder if there's a book that you can get for your girls that would help them understand what is going on with their Mom. That way, it doesn't come from you, and they can't say they were influenced by you. They can read it privately, or maybe just parts of it. All on their own time. Unfortunately, I don't know if one exists, but I'm going to guess there's one out there. They must be so confused. 
Maybe one of your Out of the FOG friends has a recommendation.
As always, stay strong and follow your path

EM:

I'll remind you of the book suggestion The Parallel Process....... it's a really helpful book when dealing with struggling kids, IME. Lots of good information to keep educating yourself for the times to come, which is an empowering act..... it's EVERYTHING, IME.

I have Cliff Notes from another poster on this board.....if I can find the thread, I'll post it here.  Anyone know how to find those notes on the Parenting Board?

About feeling bad or guilty....... just notice it as it goes by and try not to grab hold of it.  Those feelings belong, are a part of you, but they aren't YOU.  They aren't helpful at this point either.  They're counterproductive and you're growing past the reactivity and denial that brought you to this place.

You're hear bc the stbx is broken, can't do any better and you're the only parent capable of protecting the children. Your stbx WOULD DO IT, if she could.  She can't and that's why you're doing it.  Acceptance and forgiveness are friends...... but you can't forget.  backsliding into denial might relieve discomfort for a moment or a day, but it'll set you back and hinder your ability to help the kids, IME. I'll keep repeating the things I think we all struggle with..... as long as I think you need to hea it, be supported by it..... until you internalize it and make friends with it.  I will.

Never forget......the PD's action brought your family to this place of intervention.   You're intervening in the harm and trauma and trauma bonding..... the manipulations and alienation.....the bullying..... the cruelty and the abuse cycle.

You're the only one who can stop it, bring attention to it and inject help and healing into it...... to change it and install softer, healthier softwear in your childrnen's Nervous Systems and chests....... show them something other than the dysfunction they now think of as "normal" interpersonal relations.

That's you, Mate.  You're up and you have the power to change things.  Even when you lose a battle, remember....... the truth, evidence and perseverence....... keeping your goals in mind...... depending on your support system to get you back on track when you veer off....... it's a long war and small skirmishes will feel like they're life or death, but they aren't.  There will be good days and bad days.... an attorney said that to me, once.  He didn't know me.  He was sitting in on one of my trial days..... he knew someone who knew me..... I'd worked in an attorney office once....... I knew many attorneys....... and he just wanted to give me something helpful and I wish I could have understood and internalized that ONE thing, when he said it.

There will be good and bad days...... the PD will say things, allege things, write things, send things and file things designed to send you off the deep end...... what is it you say?  She'll want you to tell her off, tell her attorney off, yell, write things, say things she's recording and you're going to remember hhaw and the anonymous attorney who TOLD her how it is........
there will be bad days you feel you're losing, bc the PDs always manage to convince some dumb bunny by spouting off triggering stories (that make sense) but aren't true.

Remember...... it takes evidence and consistent truth telling to win the war, IME.  You'll do that and you'll have the chance to explain any yelling you've done or telling off of anyone, bc anyone would lose it under your circumtances.

That you've been more patient, more committed to restoring peace and placating your stbx is a strength.  Stoicism doesn't serve us when we allow abuse to escalate and claim our children too, but I understand it and give your permission to lay down the stoicism...... now. 

It's OK to tell.  It's good and right and leading to joy.... leading to happiness to feel the sun on your face again.... soon.

You'll be mired in legals and trial prep and organizing evidence as you continue to collect it, sure, but there will also be moments of researching and planning new holiday rituals with your children. There will be outings and opportunities to model patience with GC...... and I hope you can gain enough spaciousness to notice it without reacting to it with anger or sadness or pain, bc you have the choice to simply SEE it and sit with it, sans judgment so you can be more responsive for both your children and yourself.

If you can avoid being swept up in fear and sadness and pain..... you have more choice and are more available to respond. 

Something to think about....... accepting there will be bad days...... knowing you'll have plenty of chances to disprove the negatives and you WILL do so.  Don't let yourself get dragged off course without remembering that's the way of these things.  You'll recover from the adrenaline dump and fear and do what you can do to respond to the allegations.  It's how these things work.  Nothing new and I hope it doesn't blind side you as often as it could....when it does, forgive yourself and be so very gentle...... administer self compassion until it becomes your new default.  Esp when you feel you've failed to remember something. 

Forgetting is how these things go and we learn through it...... pain is a quick teacher.

In the meantime.... remember, you need all your energy for yourself and your girls.  You don't have it to give to the PD, esp when she's demanding it and lashing as a ploy to get you to forget your mission....... she'll likely manipulate one or 2 people in this, but it's good to remember.... she can't fool everyone all the time.  Esp since you're been documenting as you have. 

So come back to the board when things go off the rails.  Going off the rails is going to be normal for a bit, I'm afraid.  Maybe come up with a mantra for the scariest shocks........ something to do instead of going so far off the rails........ eventually it gets easier to pull things back on track, so trust that. 

Just trust things will get less scary.  The unknown is always scary to all humans.  Mitigate the shocks and fear with deep breathing... and when you can't push on door jambs till you can.  End showers with cold water every morning and keep breathing...keep breathing, always, EM.

I wouldn't give your kids any labels for mom - not PD or anything else.

Just strategies, and I wouldn't label them either. Like teach MC without using that word, noJADE without using the acronym, etc.

Imho

She has been notified about the divorce and that I have filed, so far she is walking around pretending to be happy. She took a call so I assume she has got in contact with a solicitor. I really hope she has and it is a decent one, if so they hopefully keep her in check and suggest her to not contest it. All I can do for now is hope, it's not something I can control (the 3 c's), but as long as she stays calm I am happy. But we all know how quick a PD can change the game.

This is huge. It's really happening for you!

Stay the course and be ready for anything. The less you engage, the better. The minimalistic BIFF communication style, advocated by Bill Eddy, will serve you well. Keep us posted....

Deep breaths my friend.

She came in to me and started some small talk and then suddenly sarcastically thanked me for the letter she received. I took a deep breath, decided to not defend myself or blame her so just said "that's ok". I have spent all afternoon breathing and calming myself down and realised, I don't need to explain myself to her. It's all in the divorce petition, her abuse, it's there in writing, nothing else matters.

And, yes I am breathing and doing no JADE.   

She's gone Waif...... this is killing me.

I have been crying, a lot..... I love her, I love her so much. She is the love of my life, or at least the imagination I have. But, it doesn't matter as I can't be hurt anymore. I am Out of the FOG and with the knowledge of what happened, she cannot help herself. She told me I deserve to be happy and this is not what she wants, it's not what I want either but I have no choice. I can't take any more of her abuse and I can't risk any more damage to my children. I need to just grind this out, however hard it will be.

I think it's okay to acknowledge your feelings: love for your wife, hurt from her behavior, and anything else.

We know you love her. Of course you do.

The situation was completely untenable. Is completely untenable.

Love doesn't stop with divorce.  I've been divorced from my x and I still love him. Through all the abuse, I still loved him.  Of course you do.

And the emotions will swing.  Be ready for that.  One moment it's a deep cutting grief and another it's a high of freedeom and then on to something else.

All the advice is so valuable.  The advice about engagement was crucial for me.  It kept from being swept back in and I could see clearly what he was doing.  Pulling for you!

Quote from: escapingman on January 28, 2022, 02:51:02 PM
I have been crying, a lot..... I love her, I love her so much. She is the love of my life, or at least the imagination I have.

What you're feeling is totally normal.  I can tell you I went through a period of trying to wish back that person that I loved, and (I thought) loved me, but eventually I faced the reality that my exPDw is who she is.  And she isn't the person I thought she was when I married her.  Always remember that actions speak louder than words.  The reality is in your daily life with that person, not in your imagination. 

I can also tell you that your love for her doesn't necessarily end after you divorce.  You might go through periods of anger towards her about what happened, disappointment in yourself for getting sucked into a relationship with a PD, and periods of time where you're just sort of lost in it all and don't know what the next step is.  It's a whirlwind to go through, especially with kids involved.  But I can tell you from my experience that eventually you'll come out the other side and find that you can care about your exPDw, truly hope the best for her, but still know deep down that it's not your place in life to be her caretaker anymore. 

Thanks all, I really appreciate all your support.

Before she went to bed yesterday she told me that she had been having such a good time being married to me. Words of course, but this one was not going in her favour with me. I have not had a great time, and if she base her great time on being able to have me as her punch bag she is spot on. That is what it has been, as soon as she has needed to vent her frustration for anything, I have been there being her personal punch bag, the one to load all shit on so she then can move on. She has been incredible nasty to me the last 2 weeks, turned the kids against me and laughed at me. But the same second she gets the notification of the divorce she first plays the victim and then is nice to me pretending we are a happy family. Predictable and sickening, makes me angry as all I wanted was for her to treat me with respect. But, I know whatever she says, it's only words. I know, if I ditch the divorce and tell her lets give it another chance, it will take a couple of weeks, maybe a month max, before the abuse starts again. I WILL NEVER GO THERE AGAIN!

Sounds like you're really feeling  (justifiable and appropriate ) anger , EM. Use it, welcome it. It's energy.

I've just responded to a thread about repressed anger, in the Working On Us section. It's hard to even think clearly when you've been bought up to be 'nice'/caretake/ fix. To put yourself first - in order to be strong enough to be there for others. Especially when caught up in the madness of a Drama Triangle.

It's just a shame that some of us have to end up being pushed to the brink to see things as they really are.
Good luck

How are the kids ?

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on January 28, 2022, 06:09:25 PM
Love doesn't stop with divorce.  I've been divorced from my x and I still love him. Through all the abuse, I still loved him.  Of course you do.

And the emotions will swing.  Be ready for that.  One moment it's a deep cutting grief and another it's a high of freedeom and then on to something else.

All the advice is so valuable.  The advice about engagement was crucial for me.  It kept from being swept back in and I could see clearly what he was doing.  Pulling for you!

Thoughts and prayers for steadfastness for you.   :yeahthat:  I believe this, and folks here who have the experience, validate it for me.   

SoT

EM:


It might be time to tell the children you and mum are ending the marriage.....bc.....hmmm....what will you say?  If anything?

Because all the hostility between you and mum isn't healthy and it's in everyone's best interests to create peaceful environments without the conflict....maybe?

You'll tell them things will be different but fine.  Everyone will be ok.  You'll live them always and forever, no matter what.  All will be well then give them the speech about children not belonging in adult stuff bc they have their own stuff ...school, chores and discovery of their passions.  It's wrong for adults to include children in adult stuff and adults can find themselves in trouble for it when they're told it's wrong but keep doing it.

Maybe something short and inclusive....your mum and I will try not to make sad choices.  We'll try not to talk about adult stuff in your presence.  If we fail, you have permission to ignore what's said..... everyone is going to be ok.  I don't want you to worry about that.  I promise.

Maybe record it.  Maybe have the chat with stbx present too?

Maybe say something different, but I wouldn't allow stbx to control the narrative without doing some damage control and reassuring both girls.

Maybe it would be helpful to come up with a mantra to u say to yourself when stbx us sobbing? 

Not sure what.......
1. Hopefully you'll get the help you need.
2.  I tried and failed.  I can't fix you
Or 3.  One person can't make 4 people happy but 1 person can make 4 people miserable.

Be ready to call services if stbx threatens suicide. 

You might get the evidence you need to steer this divorce to it's best possible outcome with economy if motion so stay frosty, EM.

This too shall pass.

 

Ok, the clock is now ticking so every day nothing is done I am one day closer to freedom. STBX has decided to be on her best behaviour, pretending all is fine. This has so far given me some breathing space, I know it won't last, but a few days is worth a lot for me. She has tried to defend some of the accusations I put in the petition, I have managed to stay calm and realised it would only end up in another JADE to tell her the real truth. It would be easy to fall for her words, but I know the big picture and I would never give her one more chance. If we can split as friends and then be OK with each others for the kids sake, I would be over the moon. But, I know that will be a dream never coming true. The charade she is playing right now is just that, a charade. She needs me, that's all it is, who else will take care of her? I am sure she will con someone else to be her next man, but will he accept to caretake her from the off? I don't know, and I don't care. My only concern with her after the split is if she picks a bad apple to be there with my kids. I want her to be happy, I want her to get well, I want her problems to disappear, but I can't help her and cure her. I have tried for 15 years with zero success. I want to look after myself and my kids from now on, treat them and me without drama ruining it all.

I am in a really difficult situation right now about where to draw the line. If I go down to the shops and she asks me to buy a bottle of milk, and I buy it for her, she thinks that's me wanting to get back together. I honestly could pick up a bottle of milk for anyone, even someone I hate as it is just a practical thing to do and I put zero emotions onto the bottle of milk. But, she wouldn't. Same if I ask her the same if she goes to the shop. If I ask her to pick up anything she would make me know she picked it up.

But I am riding the initial storm, right now she is peddling water, but I know this will change at any time. I will use this time to rest and rebuild.

Don't forget, you can't control her. Pick up the milk. It's fine. You're fine. If she makes it into something it's not - well, honestly, she will leverage anything you do anyway. If you don't pick up the milk, it will be a huge big weird thing too. Just look at it like you're obaerving some Martian that moved in. Martians are weird.

It's sad how she is playing the ostrich. She really has so few ways of managing the world. Basically the two types of control - rage and hoover. Everything gets those two reactions, and when A doesn't work she switches to B, and when B doesn't work she's back to A because there is no C, or D, or even just natural things that AREN'T STRATEGIES but authentic responses. So weird.

I know a couple of BPD type women and believe me they have a new man by breakfast when the previous one doesn't work out. And yes, they have them taking care of them straightaway. All it takes is a waterfall of livebombing.

Prepare your heart.

EM:

I know you feel great discomfort when something you do is regarded as getting back together and making everything fine in the PD's head.

Just realize that takes up a good deal of real estate in your head.  It worries you, but I think the stbx WANTS you to worry.

I guess I'll bring up SOOOPHing.... Stay Out Of Other People's Heads as a good rule of thumb.  You can't control what she says, does or thinks, so why bother worrying about it? 

No one will care about who picks up a bottle of milk and the PD will find something to twist and try to manipulate with.  It might as well be the milk, for now, IMO.

Keep breathing, EM.  Know you're girls aren't vulnerable toddlers or non verbal babies..... they have you to protect them..... youi're doing your best, no matter what comes. 

If you can't stop thinking about the stbx dating bad men........spend some time researching the ways you can mitigate that harm and cut off problems before they start.  What DO you plan to write into any parenting agreement?  What would your very best visitation schedule look like?  What do you see your stbx' involvement in the children's lives looking like..... IF you get everything you want and they're in the children's best interests?

I hope your Judge understands parental alienation and interpersonal terrorism using the children as weapons against the other parent. I hope that Judge is willing to limit contact with stbx and children until the stbx manages to get herself under some kind of control...... she's on her best behavior right now, so you KNOW she's capable.

I'd write out everything and research the laws, the standards and the likely out come IF you prove everything your stbx does to the children so you can discuss it without being triggered with anyone who brings it up.

You're going to win some battles and lose some battles..... there will be good days and bad days..... it's just how these things work till enough evidence comes out to show who's lying and who's truthing. 

Remember, Judges tend to split the babies so ask for more than you need...... referencing protections for the girls. 

In the US the Judges make a habit of telling litigants not to discuss the adult conflict with the children.  They expect to be obeyed and some Judges really take it personally when they're ignored, IME.  Some lash out and punish litigants who thwart their directives. Keep thinking about how you'll show a Judge what your children are living with, taking into account GC's likely responses.  GC's words and actions might be the very thing SHOWING the court what your stbx has done.

If the SG feels safe enough to tell the truth, she likely will. 

A good crisis intervention T sounds necessary.  Remember, having an organized notebook or digital files to quickly show the most important evidence that informs whomever you're trying to educate... without expectation, fo course, can help keep the stbx from getting in there and whipping that person into a froth with explosive allegations against you creating knee jerk reactivity..... you want everyone to understand the facts, the sooner the better, IME.

Being the nice guy...... allowing the T or whomever to come to their own conclusions (without providing facts to counter the lies I know will be told) is a mistake nice people make.

Don't get stuck playing the nice guy in this.  Be the protective dad with evidence.  Feel entitled and obligated to show the stbx's terrible truths, but do it so you aren't punished for saying those things..... and laying documents out, one after another, is better than speaking the terrible truth, IME. 

You don't have to explain WHY stbx would DO the terrib;e, self destructive things to herself, her children and you.  You just have to prove she's done them then avoid drawing negatie attention to yourself.

People might not understand why PDs DO irrational things that will never make sense.

People do understand staying in a touch marriage for the children's sake and leaving when things are no longer bearable.
This is another good spot to think about what you'll allege..... what you can prove..... and what you'll leave out, bc it just makes no sense.

How are you planning to explain your wife's behaviors? 

What do you want the Judge to believe caused her behaviors? 

Whatever it is you're explaining, people need it to square up and make sense. 

From where I sit, you have a domestic violence situation where the stbx has engaged the children in her cruelty towards you and also aimed the abuse at your SG and sometimes the GC, which you can no longer allow..... nothing you've tied over the last 12 or so years has made things better. Things are escalating and you feel you have no alternative after therapy with your stbx failed. 

You tried.  Your stbx continued the abuse and defense of same.  There's no choice but to separate so peace and safety can be restored for your family.

Always speak about the stbx with compassion, level tones, zero judgment.....always give facts you can prove without any expectation and only the burger, never the bun, veggies or condiments. 

You're surfing real good, EM.  Don't let the stbx yank you far off course, bc she likely will.  Just remember.....breathing and doing NOTHING gives you the chance to think and choose whatever gets you through this quicker and with the best possible outcome so always think before you speak or act.  Always refer back to your game plan and choose one of the best options you've thought through when you were calm and strategizing.

Quote from: square on January 29, 2022, 04:08:08 PM
She really has so few ways of managing the world. Basically the two types of control - rage and hoover. Everything gets those two reactions, and when A doesn't work she switches to B, and when B doesn't work she's back to A because there is no C, or D, or even just natural things that AREN'T STRATEGIES but authentic responses. So weird.

Yes, these 2 are used frequently. But her biggest one is being the victim, nothing beats her crawling around on the floor crying. Threatening suicide, crying uncontrollable. But I can see through this, but I still suffer when she does it. She always, and I mean always alternate between these 3 stages, Rage, Victimhood and love bombing. Some days she can do all 3 several times, even cycling through all 3 in an hour.

In certain ways I hope she get a new care taker quick, but at the same time I dread it as that would mean her supply would go up and she would get more energy to fight me. I just have to see how this turns out, I am done with her, but need to survive.

Ah, ok, there is a C. And it sounds like a real doozy. smdh

It's possible she won't direct new supply onto ruining you. She might just use it to fill herself up again and create a new perfect fantasy life and pretend she forgot all about you. I'm not placing bets or anything, but it can play out in different ways.

EM:

If stbx is writhing on the floor talking about killing herself.....have you considered calling emergency services so she can be evaluated for her safety?

I'd record the incident so she can't accuse you of lying about it.

You can find notes on the book
The Parallel Process.

They're on the
My daughter said shut up to her dad
thread on the
Parents' Discussion board.

She hasn't yet threatening suicide or crawled on the floor, but she has done both in the past when I have rejected her. She cried yesterday, felt very sorry for herself. It's a tricky one, as I could easy just go to her, give her a hug and say all will be alright. But it's not up to me, it's up to her. She can say whatever, but she can't help herself going back to the abuse. But yes, if she threatens suicide I will call 999 and/or her mother and someone else can deal with it. I can see she is still pretending this marriage can be saved, so whenever, if ever, she realise this anything can happen.

By the way, I bought her milk in the end..... It won't change anything for how I feel so doesn't matter.

You're children see you behaving appropriately, with kindness and consideration, even though the stbx is unkind, unstable and innapropriate.

Buying milk can be just that.

My xOCPDh was on match a month after the divorce was final.  He is dating now and went on a cruise.  I know he will hook some poor unsuspecting woman to take care of him because he is "such a good man to take care of his exwife while she had cancer and then took all his money". He will play the martyr, victim and poor poor me act.  It has been an emotional up and down few years and yet, I do love him and want him happy and only the best for him.  Truly.

That doesn't mean I would take him back.

Get ready like square said and prepare your heart.

As for the joint household tasks, she may ask for milk but is she the only one who drinks it?  Probably not.  It's a joint household thing until you and/or she moves out.  Now if she asks you to pick up an item that only she uses, that is  "Gee, I don't feel comfortable buying that in case I get the wrong thing."

As soon as she threatens suicide, act on it.  At a minimum report to the doctor or social services or your joint therapist and record it.

EM:

I hope you aren't forced to live with stbx long. 

Lots of risk and opportunity, but also terrible strain on the kiddos.

Try to remember you're asking the courts to settle the divorce for you.

The PD will bait, poke, challenge, waif and ask questions you'll likely feel obligated to answer.

Don't take the bait, accept the challenge, let your nose get stuck on her waif act pebble.  Don't let her trick you into  feeling obligated to help her understand or work anything out between you or come to some understanding.  That time has passed though you'll still want to. 

When you filed the divorce you stepped away from resolution with stbx and you placed the court and attorneys between the two of you for a reason.  It's the beginning of relief and healing and cultivating joy with your children sans constant conflict, blame, tantrums, silent treatment and chaos manufacture.

You are no longer confused and in the FOG.

You are responsible for remembering the Court will make decisions for your family .... don't let the stbx threaten or frighten you, bc she isn't in control now.

Instead, focus on this.....
The person with the best records wins.

THAT's your priority now.  Ensuring the record is set as straight as it can be so the Court can rule in your childrens' best interests.

Dig deep in the Out of the FOG toolbox and be ready to document, call services and help your children through this.

Abused children don't stop loving their abusive parent.  They stop loving themselves. 

You have a mission.  Don't let the PD distract you or  don't allow her to distract you for long.

Get curious.  Don't judge.  Give yourself tsunamis of self compassion.....so your girls know how to do it.

Thanks for all support.

I was wrong, again, she still hasn't got it and she has not spoken to any solicitors. She want to talk, again, I have said no but she keeps coming back telling me we need to talk. The only conversation I am interested in is about who moves out and who stays in the house for now. She is unlikely to want to talk about that, she would want to talk at me until she can change my mind. I won't happen. I have made my decision, I am tired, I am tired of telling her the same over and over again only for her to deny it. The entire weekend she has been following me around in the house, tried to get small talk and then pretend all is fine. I changed the music streaming service, sent out new logins to everyone as it's a family account, she behaved like that was me declaring my undying love for her. If I would have withheld the information from her she would have acted like she was the biggest victim not being allowed to listen to music. I don't care whatever, but at least I didn't give her the opportunity to complain I taken her music away from her. This morning I went to the bakery with SG, we were going to buy some fresh croissants for breakfast, naturally SG picked up one for her, one for GC and one for her mum, but when we came home STBX again behaved like it was some love gift from me, even though it was SG that picked it up. It's not like I can say to the kids to exclude their mum, that would blow up in my face.

I also spoke to the couples therapist, she understand me and can see the difficulties, but I am not sure she understands PD so her help might just about end here. She is going to talk to STBX next week and try to get her to understand I want a divorce, no idea how that will go, but not really my job so I leave that. Next week STBX probably will be served the papers from the court, wonder if she will respond or put them in the bin. Again, it's not my problem what she does, I can't control her actions. If she keep ignoring it I think the divorce will end up not disputed and go through without any court interaction. One can hope.....

But to what you wrote hhaw. I don't think I can stay in the same house as her for much longer, all 3 sides of her is pretty unbearable (Victim, love bombing and the rage).

I just need to get peace and heal.

She is about to lose it, with no control over the situation she is really struggling. She just demanded me to schedule a talk with her, I said no, she went really angry telling me she wants me to change my mind. Then telling me she does not want a divorce and she never meant any malice.... She then said she thought the divorce was put on hold and she was surprised I suddenly filed. Last week I was crying through all her abuse and told her I could not take any more and this is the end, she laughed at me and said what are you going to do about it. Surprise, I filed you stupid idiot.  Since I am Out of the FOG now, the entire conversation just felt weird as it was just blatant lies and denial from her. I didn't even engage much other than stating a couple of facts. Five minutes later she came back trying to do small talk about something completely random as if the previous discussion never happened.

STBX will mount a multi faceted campaign to draw you into discussions, arguments, defending and explaining yourself..... she'll go from accusing you to, love bombing to raging to asking you questions you've always wanted to answer and find understanding from her BUT SHE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND YOU.

Everything you say from here on out will be twisted and used against you..... flipped upside down and weaponized.

There is NOTHING to gain from letting her in your head, or resonding to her, other than short answers like...."that's possible" "we don't see things the same" " I have a different experience." 

Drop your desire for her to understand.  Get used to sitting with the discomfort of telling the PD NO.

You're an adult and can leave the home when she refuses to honor a boundary...... take the kids and get ice cream.  Go to the grocery store with whicher child wants to go with.  Is everything shut down there, like in Canada? I hope not and if it is.... go for take out.......or lock yourself in your study or bedroom, but don't allow her to take up all your bandwidth and monopolize your headspace. 

You NEED your brain and focus.

Your children need you polite and responsive in the home...... verbalizing healthy boundaries in even tones and enforcing them, so don't name any consequences you aren't prepared to follow through on immediately.....

"You and I won't be discussing the divorce and if you continue to bring it up in front of the kids I'll.....(insert consuequence.)

If you leave the house every time she stomps a boundary, at least there's a chance she'll understand you won't allow boundary stomping any more, ever.  They say it takes 6 weeks of ZERO contact for a stalker to lose interest in the person they're stalking and find someone else. Not that you'll get that lucky, but you see how ANYTHING will and can be twisted by the PD into whatever disordered narrative she has going at the moment, so just avoid contact at all costs.

I'm not sure saying things like......"well, I told you I couldn't abide the hostility in the home with our children and nothing changes so this is where we are."  Maybe the PD will go back to her T and do what PDs DO...... garner sympathy, smear you then claim she's doing the work to be forgiven with the divorce dropped..... which is her doing something other than pointing herself at you AND MAYBE going to T will give her an insight or two?  Maybe?  Not likly, but you have no control over anything but yourself, EM. 

You're always the polite but firm, consistent parent striving to provide some stability and safety for the children in an unsafe abusive environment you're about to exit and some of the time the kids will be IN your safe environment, worst case scenario.  Best case is you getting full custody with stbx having supervised visitation bc she was unable to pretend to be appropriate arouind the children long enough to fool the Court..... or she threatens suicide and ends up in an evaluation which is the best place for her, all things considered, IMO.

I realize it's impossible to completely ignore her, but strap our filters on and view her with curiosity, like she's an interesting bug....... and continue taking pristine notes, recording and enforcing boundaries with compassion in front of the kids.

You're going to separated and out of her space soon.  The only question is.... can you show the Judge why you're the only good enough parent these children have and the stbx is acting in bad faith and with malice toward you and the children at times.

Prove your case well enough and you might just get what you ask for, so stay frosty and locked on the mission, EM.

Just bc the PD wants to talk, schedule conversations or blather on till you cave in and drop the divorce doesn't mean you have to participate or allow it. 

She lost her power when you filed.  Don't give your power away by complying with ANYTHING or the first thing she asks for if it's more than going to the store for a gallon of milk, just don't do it, EM.

It's going to be OK.

Thanks again hhaw for your reply.

I am Out of the FOG, so don't worry. I know what she is doing, I am just trying to plan for my next steps and think about how much I can trust her with the kids. I need out, I need a break, can I leave the kids with her for a while? I suppose I need to get used to that anyway as she likely will get at least 50% custody anyway. I will not change my mind, no way I will. I have been out with SG today, we had a great afternoon, we played tennis, went to the pet shop looked at the rabbits and drove around chatting. We have no restrictions here in the UK at the moment so we can do anything we feel comfortable with. I have booked a trip to see my childhood friends next weekend, I need friends, but I am not sure I can leave. I am worried about the girls being with STBX, but I know I will have to leave them with her at some point anyway. I also booked a week for me and the kids to go away in their school holiday and to see their grand parents. I can't see this being possible, STBX will kick and scream about that, but I might just take them. But, the problem is that it is abroad in Europe and she could claim it is me kidnapping them. This will get ugly, but I will fight. I know who is the bad one and who is the good one. STBX also thinks she knows, but she is wrong, and I have my recordings to prove her wrong.

You have to discuss going abroad with your solicitor. I don't know but I assume you won't be able to take them :(

And even if stbx agrees one minute to let you she'll rescind it a minute later.

I thiink you're ok leaving the kids with her as need be. As you've said, joint custody is the most likely outcome anyway. Maybe she behaves herself a bit better when you're gone. If it were me, I'd be thinking you should be able to claim a similar amount of dad time in exchange. So if you leave the kids for two nights you should be able to take them elsewhere (hotel or flat) for two nights. If GC doesn't want to, warmly accept her decision and let her know if she changes her mind before you leave you'll be delighted.

I already spoke to my solicitor about taking them abroad, I need an agreement in writing from STBX to be safe. I don't think that is a fight worth it at the moment, even though I think it would do the kids the world as they haven't seen them for 2 years.

But I think I need to go, it's mental to be close to STBX and all her games.

You might not be able to get the agreement.

Maybe you should just not mention it but IF she asks you for something you're reasonably willing to give, pull out the paper and offer a deal. Dunno what might come up but who knows.

I'd wait and see. If you ask her, she'll leverage the hell out of it. Wait and see if she asks something of you. (NOT cancelling the divorce etc obviously).

now that you have filed and are ready to go in your mind soul and body, it is time to know the divorce laws in your area.  and the process.  this is the time to sit with your lawyer and ask questions.  If you leave the house, do you forfeit the house?  is it a complete split of property 50/50 of all assets bought within the marriage?  Do you own what you bought before the marriage?  What are sentimental items that you wish to have around you?  Exactly, and I mean exactly, how much are in each account before the courts freeze everything?  And every account from savings, checking, bonds, retirement and even the change in the drawer of the kitchen.  Know in your heart and mind what you are ready to walk away from - what you are ok with leaving on the table.

Is it a 50/50 division of time with the children?  Here there are standard schedules like schedule a, b or c.  Pick one.  What happens if you want to take the kids out of country - you or her - how does that work and how is it written into the agreement?  What pitfalls and problems should you worry about?  Read the blogs and articles about divorce where you live - and know the specific area - like state and county laws that could affect it.

Everyone has given great advice for you emotionally but also remember that knowledge is a calming and powerful tool.  Know what steps are next?  Does your area do a separation agreement and then work on the final divorce paperwork?  How does alimony work for either of you?  You don't need to answer us here but make sure your lawyer is talking you through all of this.

This will determine whether you can go outside the country with the kids - and you may ask your lawyer this question - when I filed I had a trip planned with my daughters to visit my parents and my stbx already agreed to the trip - do I have to get it in writing or how do I proceed?

Here is my best advice - advice I was given and wish I had followed - any and ALL agreements no matter how small - should be made in writing either handwriting or via email.  And be very specific.  Think worst case in every situation and be prepared for loose or fuzzy responses that walk around the issue.  Don't give up be direct and cc your lawyer if you need to.  A verbal agreement should be followed up with an email confirmation.  I didn't do this and I lost over 10,000 to my ex.  All because I didn't confirm in writing and he gaslit me and refused to pay.  But I walked away from it because I just couldn't fight anymore.

If you don't want the house, and leaving doesn't forfeit your portion of it by her either paying you or selling, then for your peace of mind find somewhere else and go.  Talk to your lawyer about how to approach your daughters but for your own sanity, go.

Thanks for your input all of you.

I think I have a reasonable good idea about the process and how things work out. Ideally I should stay in the house as my claim on the house would be weak, and also STBX could keep stalling any talks and sales of the house so she could stay longer in the house if I have left. Having said that, it is becoming unbearable to be in the house with her, every time she gets one second on her own with me she tells me she doesn't want the divorce and that I should change my mind. I have no intentions to change my mind, but explaining to her so she gets it is about as productive as going over to the next door neighbours and explaining it to their dogs. She really doesn't understand this was her making by abusing me for years, and she had her last chance and blew it. When it comes to the process, it can only be stopped by me asking the court to withdraw my application, so by me doing nothing the process will keep going. STBX will be served the papers, if she doesn't respond she will be served them again in person, if she doesn't respond to that the divorce will be granted uncontested. At this time I can apply for the divorce to be final, but this should not be done before the finances and children has been discussed and agree. We don't have a complex financial setup, unless STBX plays up it could be agreed in an hour. The kids are getting older, so I think they are close to being able to chose for themselves, or at least heavily indicate where they want to live. To be honest, I am not even sure STBX would even want the kids, or she would fight for full custody, I don't know. I take that fight when it comes in a few months.

But before moving out, which I will have to, I need it all sorted with my solicitor. But staying in a hotel for a while is not seen as having moved out, so might be able to leave for a while to breathe to make proper decisions without having her breathing down my neck. Financially it won't make any difference staying in a hotel than renting another home.

Hey Escapingman, you are doing great, keep breathing.  I think she is still in denial, big time.  I don't think she believes this is really happening at all.  I think when the second lot of paperwork comes and she sees that it really is happening and she has to do something and the truth starts sinking in, this is when things are going to get ragey.  As you said, she hasn't got a solicitor yet, hence, no part of her seems to believe this is really happening.  She is most likely thinking this is a response to the last couple of weeks.

So when she gets the next lot of paperwork and it sinks in that this is happening, that is when I feel she is going to lose it.  Before the paperwork arrives have a plan in place for how you are going to deal with it.  Think about where you can go if you need to leave, pack a bag now with a few things and have it ready to go in case you need to leave quickly.  Get your important documents (birth certificate, passport, marriage certificate etc) and hide them away possibly in the bag you will take and put them somewhere she won't notice.  I don't know what her history is but borderlines can get vindictive when raging.  Of course she may just go waify.  You may not need to worry about this but better to protect the stuff that may be a pain to have to replace later or that may make things difficult if they go missing.  I suppose it's simply being prepared.

You got this, just remember to keep breathing deeply.

I am exhausted, she caught me whilst working and did the speech, the drama the everything. She went all waif mixed with declaring her undying love for me. Denying all abuse, blaming the kids, blaming me, crying, her life will be ruined, begging me to change my mind, telling me this is not happening. Whatever I tried to tell her, I had just got it wrong. I cried, mostly because I so wish what she was saying was true, but I know it is a fantasy. After this going on for an hour or so, I am ready for bed, I am exhausted. But she seems to have gained her energy levels up fronm this charade, walking around singing, being happy, almost dancing round. I am not sure if she in her drama have got it in to her head that by doing this show, this is not real anymore and she thinks I have changed my mind. She even suggested her moving out for a few days, not to give us some space, but to punish the kids to see that what happens is she moves out if they don't behave. How can she twist it so badly in her head? I was thinking all the time, has she any remorse, any idea what she has put me through. Is there any chance to cure her? But no, not one little fragment of awareness. Not even a tiny bit, other than the promise she will change..... again. I told her no more chances about 20 times but in the end when she left me she told me to please give her an answer before the end of the day.

One of us need out, my mental health will not survive this rollercoaster.

I guess she feels refreshed because she 1) got a story she can live with straight in her head (victim blablabla) and 2) she got an emotional response from you, proving in her head whatever she wants to prove. And she feels like she won this round. If you get emotional, she wins.

Too bad she sees it as a contest instead of a relationship.

EM:

I'm sorry you're struggling.  It pains me to think of you crying and feeling overwhelmed by the stbx's relentless tactics which will only escalate as time goes on and you fail to comply with her demands.

How can you protect yourself and avoid your stbx?  Letting her speak to you will create stress and exhaustion.  Having to SEE her will create upset and tear  you down.


Somehow your'e going to need to figure this out or get away. 

I loved reading about the day you had with SG.  It was a breath of fresh air and I'm sure those more of those moments,while limiting the PD's access to you, will help you stay level.

I don't doubt you're Out of the FOG, never to return. I do worry the stbx's relentless access to you will break you down so you feel making deals with her will provide some kine of relief.  Let me just say again.....it absolutely WILL NOT bring you any relief.  It will only add to your exhaustion and undermine your mission.  Find a way to distance the PD and don't relent is my advice.

About the PD and custody and the girls being safe with her.....
it's my experience the PDs want less to do with the children IF they believe the non parent wants freedom and time without the children to do personal things, like be free and happy and perhaps involved with healthier people.  I'm not suggesting you say that to your stbx, but letting her think you want time away from the girls might make her thrust the girls at you like mad,which would be a good thing, IME.

It's always a mistake to let the PD know how fearful one is about the harm the PD can do to the children in private.  At that point, the PD will use that against you to gain your compliance so...... don't let the stbx know how much fear you have around her being alone with the children...... it will ensure she's blocking your having the girls at every turn just to terrorize and upset you, IME.

Breathe,EM.  Stop letting the PD get inside your head.  Nothing good can come of it, IME.  The stbx wants to talk about what she did to you bc she wants YOU TO REACT.  She'll blame you, point to your reaction and apply to her narrative without hesitation...... you'll feel worse.  She'll feel better.  It's a cycle and you have the power to stop it.

I hope she does move out for 3 days to punish the children. What a nonsensical thing for her to say.

Quote from: square on January 31, 2022, 01:06:07 PM
I guess she feels refreshed because she 1) got a story she can live with straight in her head (victim blablabla) and 2) she got an emotional response from you, proving in her head whatever she wants to prove. And she feels like she won this round. If you get emotional, she wins.

Too bad she sees it as a contest instead of a relationship.

Yes that's exactly my thoughts as well now I have had some time to think and wind down. It's not possible to stay completely out of emotions when a charade like that start, you wouldn't be human if you did. But she did say I must love her as I cried. As she will keep this kind of drama day after day until she gets her way I need out quicker than I initially thought. I am not sure if I trust myself if she continues like this, I can't watch someone behave like that. It freaks me out.

None of us expect you to be a wall of stone under that lind of onslaught. We've all cracked under pressure, believe me.

She abuses you, you have an emotion about it, she decides that's proof you love her. How messed up is that.

She'll always abuse you because she's twisted the effects of abuse into some evidence of love.

It's impossible when she ignores every boundary. Lost out working all afternoon to her drama. I need out to a hotel ASAP and then search for a new home. I am soon agreeing to anything just to stop this.

Can you work from a cafe?  We have cades with copy machines and workspaces in our city. 

Quote from: hhaw on January 31, 2022, 03:02:44 PM
Can you work from a cafe?  We have cades with copy machines and workspaces in our city.

I can, but not very efficient with doing lots of meetings. I also struggle to work from cafes due to back problems. But I was always going to wait and see how she reacted before deciding next steps, I should have known she would go full blown waif. That is the one I struggle with, rage I can handle as that is easy as it just makes me see her as what she is. But the crying and declaring her love and future faking and telling me about all our dreams (my dreams that she has shattered). She is a master at manipulation, no wonder I have fallen for it. Please can someone tell me it's not me, I must be allowed to for whatever reason I decide to split up with someone? I shouldn't have to be made feeling guilty about ruining someone else's life, should I? Every little incident, she has twisted round to gaslight me about it wasn't as I remember it. Ever single one.

There was a period of four to five months that my xOCPDh was just perfect after I filed.  He gaslit then pleaded he changed and he cried and all that I wished would have happened over the decades before.  But when I didn't give in, he froze me out and I got the silent treatment.  30 days after the divorce was final he was on a dating website.  It was the hardest thing I ever did and the emotional rollercoaster was very real.  But it's over and I'm fine.  You will be too.  You just gotta get through to the end.

It's not you.  Reread your posts here and remind yourself what happened.  Watch the videos.  DOn't give up.

I fervently believe that anyone can end a romantic relationship with anyone else for any reason. Please try to not feel guilty.

I found this, boy did I need to read that right now. 

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

I am so worn down, and it hurts even more when she suddenly change into "the perfect" wife again. Give me a sight of what my dream was, but what is not real. In her long monolog yesterday, now when I have had time to digest it, it was all a mix of lies and denial. Every small incident or fact, was twisted, just a tiny bit so it was something I had done and not her. She even blamed it all on the kids and that if we had a united front it would all be good again. Sure, I understand parents should be united, but should it be 100% on her terms? No and that is why it is impossible to co-parent with her and why lots of arguing starts, its her way or the high way.

Anyway, there will only be one way forward and that is to just grab my stuff and leave. She won't leave, and staying to protect the kids will only drag me down under the surface. She is making me live like I am disordered too, it's not possible to be normal around someone like her.

She is actually going to drive me insane!

So she goes off in the morning, I setup for the day in my office, close the door and get my headphones on and turn the music up. Start working and of course reading more and more articles about how the hell do I get out of this. She comes home, opens the door to the office and wave, I wave back. She then enters the room standing in front of me just staring at me until I take my head phones off, she then complains about how I looked at her, followed by telling me what she is doing today and then rounding it off with asking me if I have thought about what we (her) spoke about yesterday as she wants to know my decision (I already told her but she won't be happy until I cancel the divorce). I am feeling rage coming in my body, why can't she get a simple no (yes I know, she is PD). I seriously can't go through every day being asked to change my mind. I have made my mind up, I am 100% done with this, I have been clear to her, it's only her head that is refusing to accept.

Wow....unite against the kids.  Just you and the stbx. 

Reading that gave me shivers..I still have them.

Thank God you're strong enough to resist the false peace offered up, bc it is false.  I honestly did not see that coming and I thought I wouldn't be shocked.  I really did.

You need a good T, EM.

And so do your children.

Maybe the stbx's strategy to blame the children will backfire on her spectacularly...... if it can be documented and someone in authority understands what it is, rather than ignoring and dismissing it as "normal" in behavior in a divorce war.

  Dragging children INTO the adult struggle is really bad, but blaming them entilrely for it...... to get the non parent back under control..... that is some cold, diabolical mind f'ing childhood nightmare trauma, IMO.

I agree.... you have to get out, EM.  And you're going to get your daughters, both of them, all the help you can.  All you can do is your best, then release the outcome.  I'm curious if you'll be allowed to take SG with you, if she's asking to go.

Once we file the divorce our options narrow.

She's well on her way to driving you mad, bc that's what PDs DO.  It's not personal, EM. It's just what they do.

If you can record her talking about blaming the children, do it.....but get the hell OUT of there.

I have hours of recording in case needed, I record every minute of every day as all abuse happens sudden. I hope she just comply with the divorce and we move through it fast, she is extremely careful with spending money so I think that she might just agree quick to save money on solicitors. At the same time, I think she will just victimise herself and have it over and done with so she can complain about me.

Right now I am trying to minimise contact with her in the house, but it's nigh on impossible as she keep coming in to me. But I am holding my boundaries reasonable well for being me, even though she is doing her best to violate then. But, I will tell her I am going away for a while without really give her a reason to why. If she says no and tells me I can't leave, then I will ask her to leave instead. I have travel booked for the weekend to see old friends, that is something I really need. They know I am having issues with STBX, but they don't know the details, I doubt they would believe me if I told them anyway. I don't think I would have believed myself if I told me before I went through this.

It's really useful to keep reading about BPD, Co-Dependence and the dynamics about these relationships. I don't identify me as a full blown co-dependant, but I definitely have quite a few traits. But the dynamics explained are almost a direct description about my marriage with STBX.

EM:

I don't know if you can guess about how your stbx will handle, settle or fight the divorce.  Trying to guess can be maddening, IME.

I do know researching PDs and parenting strategies help one feel empowered, make master plans and provide more information for continued strategizing.  You're better off doing that kind of research than spinning your wheels listening to the PD or thinking about what she might do.

keep your head down and consider looking at those notes on the book The Parallel Process if you get a chance.  Super helpful when dealing with defiant difficult behavior from children.

hhaw, sorry I might not have been clear enough. I am not trying to second guess what she does, more of a fact what might happen. I am not listening to her at all other than practical day to day things like who is picking the kids up from school today etc. I am reading and reading about splitting with a BPD and trying to plan for that, based on information I read, not based on guesses. But, to be able to really make real plans, I need out to not have her hijacking my brain, cause even though I am not listening to her, her presence is bad enough to get all emotions going in the background.

So the list so far.

1) Get a solicitor - Tick
2) Talk to Doctor - Tick
3) Get a therapist - Not a tick yet, but have had assessment and am waiting for allocation
4) Report her to the police - Tick
5) Get Social Services involved (have a case to refer to if needed) - Tick
6) Tell her we are getting a divorce - Tick
7) File for divorce - Tick
8) Breathe....... - Tick(ing)
9) Move out
10) Let the solicitor deal with everything from here on

I am at number 8 planning number 9 and then see what more can be added, one obvious is to get the kids T as well but not on the immediate list yet.

Good progress, escapingman!

If anyone would have told me 6 months ago about the progress I would never have believed them. Just need to find the strength to follow this through, which I think I have. I will test the waters with going away for a week, she can't stop me unless she would go herself. I done the quick maths and it's actually cheaper short term to stay in hotels than getting a house with all it's bills. If I can get a few weeks or something in a hotel completely free from her I might heal enough to see clearer what to do next.  Staying in a hotel this time will be much difference to when I have done it before, now I have filed. Last time I went I hadn't done anything on the above list.

That's very encouraging to hear. As Winston Churchill famously said, "When you're going through hell, keep going." Onward!

I noticed things go in and out of focus, EM.

Stress rises and takes over for a bit, then one decompresses and brings focus back to the mission and so it goes.

It's like the tides, in a way and we're always here for you with our filters and experience..... holding lanterns for you down the path you're traveling.

We believe you can do this, EM.

You're DOING it!

::nodding::.

It's going to be OK.

Hey EM, keep reminding yourself that it is not you.  These are really typical borderline traits, I'm sure you know it but when all the emotions are flying it may get lost.  The underlying utmost fear for them is abandonment so her behaviour of continuously coming to you and asking if you have made your mind up to me seems to be her trying to fix that ultimate fear in herself.  Her being waify and then hours later being happy and dancing, again so typical of borderline.  They cannot regulate their emotions and will change emotions within hours.  You said in the past that she has threatened suicide, again typical borderline.  I don't know if it helps to look at what she is doing and bring it back to the traits so you don't feel like you are going crazy, you asked if it is you, no, it's not, look at the traits for borderline and your STBXW fits them all.  She simply isn't capable of seeing reality.

Try not to feel guilty, you cannot help her, she needs to acknowledge it and get therapy.  They need extensive therapy to change and your STBXW is in severe denial.  You cannot help her here.

You are saving yourself here EM, it may be horrible now but you are almost out.  Stay strong.

I took SG to the hospital for an appointment, got in to the car park and searched for parking spaces, drove round and round and started to feel a bit anxious as the appointment time got closer and closer. In the end had to leave the car park and go to one further away, the entrance was blocked and we could not get in. At this point, I just took a deep breath and thanked God that STBX wasn't in the car. The panic, the screaming, the shouting, the rage that would have been. We got a space and got to the appointment with 5 minutes to spare, no rage, no arguments just a bit anxiety but nothing I could handle. This is how life will be like from now on, when things go wrong, you just take it for what it is and continue trying to find a solution. No PD that starts screaming because the world is against everything she does.

So she is trying to love bomb me now, still pretending this is not happening. I can manage a few "I love you" notes on my desk, but when this will go into hysterical cries again I am not so sure. As she is "good" to me, she had a massive fight with GC this morning. I stayed out of it, as that normally ends up with GC going against me. Apparently she had a pep talk with the girls yesterday, told them both to behave and to be particularly nice to me. She really still thinks the problem is the girls and that if they behaved all would be good. What she doesn't understand is that they are behaving when she is not with the rest of us, yes they lose their temper, but with no PD to respond angrily to it the situation gets back to calm reasonable quick.

I am still planning on leaving for a few days, I have a feeling it will be more than a few days and me never going back. I don't even recognise her, often look at her and wonder: "Who are you?". I have to set out a goal to have a home own my own within a month or two, unless I can get her to move out (not likely).

My eyes are wide open, I know she has BPD and NPD, I feel sad I can't help her, but I just can't. I have tried for 15+ years, but with no awareness from her she is beyond help. I hope that changes for her sake and the kids, but I cannot wait for it to maybe happen in the future. I need to save myself. I already feel so much better being Out of the FOG, just going down to the supermarket without telling her and get a complaint about why I need to go.

I know it will all kick off, very soon, but right now, this moment, I feel quite good.

Hey, EM, just wanted to tell you a thought that popped into my head. I've heard a number of therapists online now talk about how kids always jump to thinking a divorce is somehow their fault and their responsibility to fix. Your stbx believing that it's their fault is going to compound that. They're going to need help. From you and also therapists for them if that possibility presents itself. If she ever spouts that nonsense in front of them, bet your butt they're going to be massively traumatized. Is there any way you can have a quiet sitdown with them and assure them that things are changing, but it is not their fault, it is purely an adult issue between you and stbx, and you love them both?

My H's father blamed my H and his sister for his abuse of their mother and periodic abandonment of the family.

I also support you taking all steps to reassure them that they are in no way responsible for anything happening with you and their mother.

STBX has told them for years it would be their fault if we ever split up. I have reassured them both for as long that it would not be their fault.

I am feeling really disturbed by her current behaviour, pretending all us fine and keep calling me darling etc after I told her we were done, this must be some kind of abuse as well. It's mentally killing me.

My emotions are in a rollercoaster, I just got information from my solicitor that STBX now has appointed a lawyer of her own. This hit me in my stomach as it makes it more real, am I really doing this? Will she actually accept it is happening? Will she agree or fight it? Obviously I cried a bit, managed to do it out of her sight, though about what if I just cancel all this and go back with her, realised within seconds that's not an option. But sometimes, had this moment yesterday, I do wish I was still in the FOG being in love with her not knowing she is a PD (albeit I always knew something was off).

Now she just spoke to me and told me she has spoken to a lawyer, but she still wants me back and for me to cancel the divorce. I know, I am not stupid, as she hasn't admitted any fault, apologised for any abuse, still blamed me, she is not ready to see her problems, she will not change without help, and she can only get help if she can admit she has issues and want to sort them. I feel so sorry for her and how she feels, I wish I could help her, but I can't, and I cannot follow her down that black hole any longer. I wish she could try to get out of it, but every time I have her halfway out of it she jumps back into it. She will jump in to it again. No question about that.

I wonder how long the love bombing will be going on, until it switch to rage or waif. She is mixing in a bit of waif at the moment but mainly love bombing. As I have said before, I am considering a few days away to try to recharge and get a break, but worried about how she would be at home with the kids. At the moment she is good with them as she is love bombing me, but she look so fake, she even engage in activities in the house that she has banned the kids from doing..... weird.

My worry is if she will break me if I stay home any longer. I am strong, I am Out of the FOG, but I am no superhuman.

You are doing so well to have got so far. You deserve to live a life without trauma and pain. We all do. Abuse is never acceptable.

Remind yourself frequently why you need to separate. You need to keep working on building your self esteem.

I have gone no contact with my uBPD/NPD sister for two years and I never want to see her ever again. What helped me was to redefine her behaviour as abuse. She is my abuser and I am her target of abuse.

I have educated myself about BPD and NPD. I watch YouTube videos about Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome regularly as maintenance for myself to remind me what I have been experiencing for decades. I need to look after me as no one else is going to.

I watch the author and counsellor Kris Godinez on her YouTube channel called "We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez". I have learnt so much from her.

You know exactly what is going on with your wife's behaviour and how she is trying to hoover you back in.

If it hurts it isn't love.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

You may like to watch and listen to a song on YouTube by Brent Morgan called "Stop Calling Me" about an abusive relationship.

https://youtu.be/gyZc4UFifQo

He sums up what many people experience in toxic abusive relationships.

It seems you need more support, apart from posting here.

You may like to join a mental health carers support group. I have joined several and been attending them for many years. We all share similar but different experiences.

You may find out about one from your local carers centre or mental health charity. I know support groups haven't been meeting in person during the pandemic but many have met online regularly instead.

You are not alone.

Thanks Guitarman, it really helps to get replies like yours. Loved the song you sent, sad but true.

I have been thinking a lot about my next steps, first I need out quick, at least for a few days. Again, I just went to the fridge for something to snack on and she had left a message about her love for me inside the fridge. This cannot be normal. I find it abusive that she is not respecting my choice of ending our marriage. I understand people can be upset when their partner asks for a divorce, but how many times can you try to change someone's mind? I gave her the last chance 3 months ago, I told her I go along with couples counselling and that if she ever have one episode of abuse I will file. She had not one episode, but many, so I filed. Simple. She hasn't even admitted she abused me, she tells me I got her wrong. Not sure how I can get something wrong when someone is standing and swearing at me calling me names in front of the kids. Maybe it's just me?

Anyway, I need the strength now to get out pf the house. NOW.

I would think that going to the supermarket by yourself, as you recently mentioned, and enjoying the simple pleasure of not getting screamed at would be enough motivation to keep moving. Sometimes the smallest events reveal the most truth...

I agree with the suggestion that you get additional support. Strengthen yourself as much as possible. If not now, then when?

You are welcome.

I can relate to your post as it reminds me so much about what my uBPD/NPD sister's ex-husband endured for many years before they divorced.

You are stronger than you think. You've probably found calm resources of strength that you never realised that you had. I know I have.

My rule is to stay calm no matter what happens. Staying calm is my super power. I don't do idiot compassion any more where I am the idiot. It's a Buddhist term I learnt online from Pema Chodron.

Be kind to yourself. Have self compassion for yourself.

Don't doubt what you've experienced. Don't minimise what you've been through. I know I've done that. Become aware of gaslighting behaviour.

I realised that I can't change anyone else's behaviour. Only they can do that. I can only change and control my own behaviour. It took me a long time to realise that.

I practice Mindfulness guided meditations regularly that have helped me to live in the moment and remain calm. It's something I do for myself. It's my self care routine.

You've calmly set firm boundaries for yourself in order to not be abused. Well done. I know it's not easy.

Imagine your future life free from any more abuse, living a peaceful and fulfilling life, free from any more trauma. It is possible.

Stay strong and resolute.

My worry is if she will break me if I stay home any longer. I am strong, I am Out of the FOG, but I am no superhuman.

EM, she has broken everything.
I think you should sit with this new information about her seeing a lawyer. I feel like it was just another turn in the rollercoaster that she has you on, and it came as a surprise.
There's the nice, love-bombing, mean screamy, sad victim, mean mom, nice mom, and a few I've missed I'm sure, and now for the new one, woman with a lawyer. It's just another thing that's going to happen. There will probably be more to come as she tries to get you back in control. Be ready for them. They don't change anything. Go back and read these posts. They are the truth.
And I might have mentioned it before, read the book Splitting by Bill Eddy and Randy Kreger.
As guitarman said, listen to and read Kris Godinez. Work on your self esteem, you will learn that you deserve to be treated better.
Stay strong, we're all here cheering you on

If you are legally in the clear (in terms of not endangering your claim to custody) then I think you should go to a hotel.

I have not seen reason to believe that you are endangering your children any worse for leaving. It seems the abuse happens whether you are there or not.

She seems to always require a clear scapegoat. With you gone, you can be the scapegoat and she can treat the kids like GCs for a while. It's not actually great but will be a relief to them.

With you there, she seems to try to rope you in, and one of the kids is forced to play SG while she's waifing or love bombing you.

Can you stay reasonably close? If a kid texts you to say mom is losing it can you just go pick up any kids who would like to go? I don't know what your covid restrictions are but can you stay where there's an indoor pool or something? Could be fun. Get curry or Chinese for the room.

It just seems unnecessary to me to remain in that hell.

I agree with square.  Maybe just go to a hotel.  Soon.  Or maybe now.

As the stbx fails to gain your compliance she's going to escalate.  That's a fact.

Expect her to accuse you of doing what she's doing and worse.

I also agree with the others that perhaps it would be better to go to a hotel.  I would check with your lawyer to see if there are any ramifications regarding custody or financially before doing so and if there aren't any, then I would go.  It seems that whilst you are living there your STBX is simply not accepting it.  It seems she is thinking it's like previous times and you will come around with some love bombing.  I really do believe that this will continue whilst you are living there.

It sounds like it will be extremely hard on the kids as well.  Your STBX is actively blaming them for this situation and for the break up.  Telling them to behave better to fix the situation may leave them with a belief that they caused this.  After everything is settled I would look at getting them therapy so that they can process their feelings. 

I am sure you are a roller coaster of emotions at the moment.  You wrote about not finding a carspace the other day and you started to get anxiety about it until you realised that you could simply go elsewhere, get your carspace and everything was ok and there wasn't someone yelling at you.  If you have moments of doubt or feeling unsure, think about this act of possibly being 5 mins late somewhere and you are physically reacting to it, getting anxiety.  Think towards the future as you begin to live in a way where you don't have to worry about being 5 mins late because no one is there yelling at you.  How peaceful is that?  How peaceful will it be to live your live without that constant stress?  Think about how whether there are carspaces or not is completely out of your control and yet you started having anxiety over it because you are use to someone being beside you blaming you and yelling at you even for things completely out of your control.  Already you are calming yourself down and just getting on with it.  Going somewhere else, getting a spot and getting on with your day.  So in your hard moments try to focus on this peaceful part of your future.  You deserve that life without the abuse.

Remember the saying 'This too shall pass'.  It may be really crappy now but it will move on, there will be a point where the divorce is settled and its done and you are free. 

Thanks all for your support, it's worth everything for me. Being at home with her and noone else except the kids is difficult, it's so easy to switch off and almost follow her down that rabbit hole. However,I bought myself some time and left for an extended weekend to go and see friends. As she is love bombing me at the moment she didn't try to stop me. This will give me a break and a rest from her and maybe some useful conversations with other non pds (although they don't understand the PD bits).

I have already laid the ground down for the trip might be extended a couple of days going to an event so might get a week in the end. A week might be enough to really get a clear head fir what to do next. I actually asked her in a message so I have proof she agreed to the trip so she doesn't come later saying I abandoned her.

Thanks again for all support. I could not do this without you.

Thank you for the update. I'm glad to know that you are able to get away for a few days.

This forum has been so supportive to me through some very difficult times.

You aren't alone.

Keep posting.

Hey EM, enjoy your time away, at least you will have some space to breathe.  I hope you have a great time.

***  This thread has been locked.  ***

By policy we lock threads after they hit 5 pages.

This has been an extraordinarily productive and wonderful thread, and I hope escapingman will start new ones after his weekend away, and as his story develops. This exchange has been some of the best that Out of the FOG has to offer, with everyone both sharing and learning.

I am in awe -- again -- of this wonderful community.

Thanks you all of you!

Starboard