Court ordered family therapy for a VLC teen - do I have options?

[j_curren]

uNPDh is accusing me of parental alienation and is pursuing court ordered therapy for our teenagers.  DD16 has been vlc for four months. I have a teen 18+ (GC) who will not be required to attend, which puts even more focus on SG DD16. 

The teens have been working on their mental health for years, while uHPDh has never met with a therapist.  I am being told he will not have to attend individual therapy first.  DD16 is very clear to me about why she is VLC and is very consistent with her boundaries.    He has been threatening her with court order therapy if she did not increase contact, but she doesn't know about the stipulation yet.

I haven't signed anything and I am trying to collect as much info as possible to support her.  She is just starting to open up and heal from his behaviors.  Both teens are afraid to even write him with their thoughts/feelings right now. He writes them angry texts and email.  I am shocked and sickened that she most likely will be forced to meet with him.

Is there any way this therapy can be used to help her?  Has anyone heard of family therapy leading to their spouse being diagnosed?  I have not pursued a psych eval for him.  I am broke and exhausted, but I would pursue the eval to protect the kids.  I don't have CPS or police documentation.  I do have a few disturbing texts and emails from him to the kids.   

I realize at their age, that they will need to navigate their own relationships with him.  I am trying to stay optimistic that this therapy may be a way for our kids to communicate with uNPDh in a safe and moderated environment.  But only if they are willing participants. 

Thanks for listening.  Reading posts here keep me going.

[hhaw]

jc:

Have your childrne been in therapy before?

I can't imagine a Judge ordering pretty much grown children into therapy with a parent, bc the children aren't doing everything the parent wants.  DO ANY CHILDREN do everything their parents want them to?

The simple fact your girls have limited contact with their father is proof you haven't alienated them completely from the PD father. 

Depending on how good your ex is at manipulation and posing as the victim, it's likely a judge would see his complaint as whiney and a waste of the court's time, IME.  Esp if you pull together clear evidence to SHOW the court what's going on between the PD and the girls....... healthy boundaries can be explained and proven, esp if you remain calm while explaining the situation and do it without expectation so the Court may come to it's own conclusions about the evidence.

I should think the PD's angry texts and rational responses from the girls would be a good start to show the Court what's going on.

IF the Court orders therapy, it's possible to get one on one sessions for the sgdd for many months BEFORE the PD is imposes himself on the process.  If you're lucky, you can make sure a neutral, competent and trauma informed T is in place for DDsg acting as advocate for her.

IME any therapit chosen has to be approved by both parents and it's easy to screw up up that process.  I find PDs typically jump in with HUGE lies designed to get a knee jerk reaction out of the listener.....and the non PD parent says very little, attempts to allow the T to come to their own conclusions and figure out the truth based on the child's sessions...... and that's backfired on me like crazy.

What worked for me was organizing all my evidence in a notebook to SHOW the T the truth as I explained the situation.  THAT changed the entire game, as far as the Ts being manipulated by the PDs.

Having that notebook handy means you can explain AND PROVE your case every time you're required to talk about it, IME. 

If you remain calm, if you state only facts you can prove, if you speak without expectation.... you leave room for the listener to come to their own conclusions.

I wish you the best possible out come.  Your children are almost grown.  This will pass.  Honestly, it sounds like your girls have their heads screwed on pretty good, allthings considered. Good job, Mom.

[gfuertes]

I am not a lawyer.  If you have one to consult, consider asking about:

- An "in camera" (in chambers) interview, so the judge can speak privately with your daughter about the issue (rather than with the pressure of speaking in front of your ex in court.)

- How to introduce the concerning messages from your ex to the kids, in court, without you being criticized for violating his right to private communication with them.  I assume they were upset by the messages and voluntarily shared them with you, so I'm sure there is an acceptable way to do this, and I think it would be important.

- How / whether to have your older child submit a letter to the court, or something like an Amicus Brief?  She might have some really helpful observations about why her sister wants VLC, the potential hazards of forcing joint therapy, and that you've supported them through a problem with their dad, rather than inventing it.

- The pros and cons of requesting a psych eval.  To me, it seems like the main pro would be if it establishes that he has a problem, after which you might ask for separate therapy.  Ideally, your ex would be required to address his own issues with his own therapist, as a prerequisite for being able to attend therapy with your daughter; and rather than a therapist being hired for your daughter and her dad together, she would be able to develop trust with her own therapist, and her dad could be brought in sometimes, once he's attended his own therapy for a while.  To me, the obvious "con" would be if a judge sees insufficient evidence that there's a problem with your ex, and thinks your request supports his complaint of alienation.  How bad the concerning messages are, and the feasibility of getting helpful input from your older child seem key to weighing the pros and cons.

I would recommend a guardian ad litem, but that can be expensive.  You might ask the court clerk if any victims' advocacy groups work with that court.  Here, there's a not-for-profit for battered women that directly and officially works with the court in cases of alleged abuse, helping to gather more detailed information, and make recommendations about things like protective orders (sort of like a GAL can, with kids in custody cases, but it's free.)  If there is a similar organization for children, that works with your court, it would be worth knowing.  They might be able to make recommendations about the structure of therapy.

As far as personal experience, not in my case, but in that of someone close to me, the narcissistic dad was recorded saying angry, inappropriate things in front of the child (a much younger child.)  Mom requested a psych eval, the GAL recommended it, and the judge ordered it.  So, again, depending on how bad the messages you mentioned are, a request for a psych eval may be reasonable and successful.

In the case I referred to, the Dad would sooner have cut off his right arm than submit to a stranger sitting in judgment over whether he, of all people, had a problem and needed therapy, so he ignored the order.  Later, his relationship with a future GF became volatile and she called police.  Even though the child in this case did not witness the alleged violence, and nothing came of it legally (in fact, the battered GF went on to marry the dad,) Mom raised concerns, and the judge restricted Dad to supervised visits.  His reasoning was that dad had ignored the order for a psych eval, and his behavior seemed to be escalating.  I mentioned this development because, if you did get a psych eval ordered, you don't know how that might affect your ex's interest in therapy as a whole.  It might be one thing when he feels confident he can convince a therapist that you and/or your daughter are the problem and he's the victim.  It might be another thing entirely, if he feels he's been identified as the problem.

[j_curren]

Both teens have been in therapy on and off the past few years. Thankfully and sadly they are much more emotionally intelligent than him.

I need to move past my fear of my children being further harmed by this therapy process and instead focus on how the therapy can be beneficial.  I was raised by a PD parent, and I could have benefited from having a way to communicate honestly and safely with my parent.

Silver Linings -
It will be virtual.  I can't imagine them having to sit a room with him and a therapist right now.
The children have each other and aren't doing this alone.
I am going to make sure I get to approve the therapist.
They have a safe home where there will be no repercussions.
I will keep documenting and think about how to use the documentation.
To be thankful they are not any younger.
That we are so broke that this divorce can't go on much longer 
I knew leaving him would be bad, but geesh he's like angry bulldozer fueled by redbull. 

Thank you for the words of encouragement and strategies to consider.

[hhaw]

j:

It's good your kids don't have to face the PD in an office, behind closed doors where you can't monitor things.

Well done on finding the silver linings.

It's too hard to focus ONLY on the possible PD harm.

Keep us updated.  I'm curious if you get to court and if the Judge Orders therapy.

[j_curren]

- The pros and cons of requesting a psych eval.  To me, it seems like the main pro would be if it establishes that he has a problem, after which you might ask for separate therapy.  Ideally, your ex would be required to address his own issues with his own therapist, as a prerequisite for being able to attend therapy with your daughter; and rather than a therapist being hired for your daughter and her dad together, she would be able to develop trust with her own therapist, and her dad could be brought in sometimes, once he's attended his own therapy for a while.  To me, the obvious "con" would be if a judge sees insufficient evidence that there's a problem with your ex, and thinks your request supports his complaint of alienation.  How bad the concerning messages are, and the feasibility of getting helpful input from your older child seem key to weighing the pros and cons.

I would recommend a guardian ad litem, but that can be expensive.  You might ask the court clerk if any victims' advocacy groups work with that court. 
I if you did get a psych eval ordered, you don't know how that might affect your ex's interest in therapy as a whole.  It might be one thing when he feels confident he can convince a therapist that you and/or your daughter are the problem and he's the victim.  It might be another thing entirely, if he feels he's been identified as the problem.

I am rereading both of your messages.  Without giving too much away, we are not at the psych evaluation and court order stage yet. But I am being asked (by my attorney  ) to sign a court enforceable agreement that has these grey terms about me cooperating with therapy and not disparaging.  I am not trying to stop the agreement anymore, but more trying to make it as protective of us as possible.
We had a failed mediation recently.  He acted receptive to my positions all day and then made the whole proposal conditional on this one item that I had made clear for months was off the table.  My lawyers were shocked.     I took it hard but I was not surprised.  I think I need to find new counsel, which I cannot afford. Hopefully I will have better news soon.  I do have a good lead for a guardian ad litem.  fingers crossed.

[Penny Lane]

If I were you I would try to vague up the language/give your kids some outs.

ie, You will allow family therapy as long as they want to do it and as long as their individual therapist recommends it. You have to agree to the therapist. Etc.

My guess is that he won't get what he wants out of family therapy and he'll drop it pretty quickly. The downside is that if he can use it to terrorize your kids or you, he'll threaten it every time he gets mad. So ideally you'll either write yourself a loophole, or you'll convince him that you don't really care about family therapy so he doesn't try to use it as a sticking point.