Out of the FOG

Hi.  I had a visit from my uPDm recently and I realized that I had slipped back into the FOG.  I've posted several times this week in an attempt to find my way back out.  Thanks to everyone so far.

So I realized that I am OK at medium chill in certain contexts.  On the phone, I can just be busy and have to go.  Easy for me.  In person at my house is not as easy.  UPDM and enD live very far and stay with us when they visit.  No way around that other than no contact.  That didn't work for us the last time.

The last few visits I managed just fine by using "oh", "hmmm", "I'll think about that", "maybe later", etc. every time she tried to bully or boss me into doing something.  I walked away.  It was easy enough and it worked OK.   This visit, she decided to directly and intentionally undermine my parenting in front of my kids.  She hasn't done that in years when they were too young to really know what she had done.  I was caught off guard, but calmly in a quiet tone, I told her that I was the adult and the parent and I was handling it the way that I was told to by the pediatrician.  I felt terrified just saying it.   :stars:  She was furious.  You can't disagree or talk back to her in any way or she becomes a total waif.  Immediately and  front of my kids, she insisted that I was so mean to her, she never should have come to visit, she's never going to visit again, she was just trying to help, how could I ever treat her that way, if she knew I was going to be like this she should have left days before, she never wanted to visit to begin with because of how I treat her.  All for saying that I was the parent and was handling a rather minor discipline issue (sending a child to their room for a few minutes break for talking back to and arguing with an adult)  the way I was told to by the pediatrician.  That child is her GC and can do no wrong.  I had my kids leave the room and repeated to her calmly that I am their parent and I am handling it the way it should be handled.  She was getting ready to get more upset when my husband walked into the room.  She won't do any of this in front of him and it stopped immediately.  When her GC who was being disciplined walked back into the room a few minutes later, uPDM sat next to the child and proceeded to stroke GC's arm and hair in a possessive, creepy attempt-at-I-love-your-child-and-you-don't kind of way.  Sort of like petting a dog.  The child was clearly uncomfortable and got up and walked away.  This was just before they were due to leave, so shortly after they got in the car to head home.   

So what could I have done better?  As I type this, I know many of you will say not to let her in my house again.  Are there any other things I could or should have done?  We're not at that NC point again.  We were there several years ago.  The stress of it literally caused her to have a breakdown with a trip to the ER, and I got blamed by everyone in the extended family.  No visits are scheduled at this point other than a family vacation that I am not going to go on with her.  I posted about that earlier this week. 

My thoughts on what you've posted--

*Start setting some new "rules" for any future visits.  Make sure you are NOT left alone in the room with your mother-- i.e., schedule the visits when your DH can be there in the room with you.  You've said she won't act out in from of him, so let him be your "bodyguard", so to speak.

*Don't react to her waify act-- i.e., "I should never have come" or "I won't visit again".  Let her have her rant and then calmly say, "Perhaps it would be best if you left now".  Don't try to argue with her because it will get you nowhere.  My NM used to say things to me like "I won't call you again" or "Have a nice life, I won't bother you again" when I levied any criticism her way, even the slightest criticism.  This was all an act, this "waifyness" that she could turn on and off at will.  She would "punish" me for several days or weeks with The Silent Treatment, then when she thought she had punished me enough, would call me back and act like nothing had happened.

*You might start getting together a "script" of medium chill responses that don't involve emotional reaction.  You can rehearse these before she visits.  The key is to remain calm and nonplused and not give her what she wants-- an "angry" or "upset" you.

P.S.  There are some great ideas in the Toolbox on this website.  Go to "What to Do" and then click on "Medium Chill".  There's a whole list of ideas for responses! 

With all due respect, what do you get out of her visits? The scenario you describe sounds, well, dreadful. And her antics must be very confusing to your kids and set up weird dynamics between them (especially if she's already identified the GC). Undermining your parenting, making accusations and threats to leave, etc. sounds mighty destabilizing and abusive to you and your family.

It sounds like you the main reason you have her come is to avoid the extended family guilt blow back if you banned her visits. And it sounds like she is skilled at using high drama to get her way. If avoiding guilt is the only reason you are allowing her into your family, maybe looking at that guilt and figuring out how to dispel it for good would be helpful to you.

Good luck with all this!  It sound very hard.

I do it to see my father.  He won't leave her and is totally bullied by her.  He lets her make all decisions for him.  He insists, like many enablers do, that she'll never change and you just have to agree with her and do what she says.  He avoids her at home by sleeping or doing volunteer work out of the house.  I can't get him to visit without her. 

Thank you.  This is helpful.  I've read through the MC in the toolbox, but it's helpful to have specific things pointed out by someone who has been there.

Quote from: illogical on April 11, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
*Start setting some new "rules" for any future visits.  Make sure you are NOT left alone in the room with your mother-- i.e., schedule the visits when your DH can be there in the room with you.  You've said she won't act out in from of him, so let him be your "bodyguard", so to speak.

We are laughing, in a good way, at this.  She's so manipulative, she'll just wait until he goes to the bathroom for her picking at me and drama to start.  I suggested to him that he wear a catheter for her visit.   ;D  I think making sure he is home and in the room is a good idea.  Things got worse this visit the days he wasn't home.   We had a rule after the months of NC that she couldn't threaten to go home or she was going home.  I didn't say anything this time because she was literally packed and ready to go.  I'll remind her of the rule before her next visit if there is one.

Quote from: illogical on April 11, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
*Don't react to her waify act-- i.e., "I should never have come" or "I won't visit again".  Let her have her rant and then calmly say, "Perhaps it would be best if you left now".  Don't try to argue with her because it will get you nowhere.  My NM used to say things to me like "I won't call you again" or "Have a nice life, I won't bother you again" when I levied any criticism her way, even the slightest criticism.  This was all an act, this "waifyness" that she could turn on and off at will.  She would "punish" me for several days or weeks with The Silent Treatment, then when she thought she had punished me enough, would call me back and act like nothing had happened.

For the past few years I was just walking away with a "hmmm" when she did the "I should just leave right now, I never should have come, you are so mean to me" bit.  I learned that after she did it the evening before my son't birthday party that he wanted her to attend. She demanded that I take her to the train station so she could go home.  She sat on a chair in my yard, sobbing so the neighbors could see and making my kids upset.  It was all over her picking at me constantly about party plans not being how she wanted them until I finally snapped and told her that I didn't like it and to stop.  Again, tears, hysteria, furor, how could I do this to her.  And, of course, she was only trying to help.  Then tells my dad that she was helping and I was so mean to her.  Then he lectures me to be nice to her, you know how she is, don't disagree, just do whatever she says, etc.  I didn't want her to leave and upset my son on his birthday, so I gave in and apologized.  Never again.  From then on, I just totally didn't react.  Complete medium chill no matter what awful thing she said to me.  But it's upsetting to be talked to in that way and say nothing.  It builds and builds until I end up snapping at my husband or kids.

I think from now on, especially now that my kids are older, I'll just tell her that she's right, maybe she should leave and never come again. 

Quote from: illogical on April 11, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
*You might start getting together a "script" of medium chill responses that don't involve emotional reaction.  You can rehearse these before she visits.  The key is to remain calm and nonplused and not give her what she wants-- an "angry" or "upset" you.

After years of snapping at her, I came here a few years ago and found out the key was to be calm.  I'm calm no matter what she says.  I'm to the point that I don't react at all.  But now saying anything that even seems like I might disagree with her, even in a totally detached, calm way, sets her off.  I just looked at the MC list.  I think even
It's none of your business.
It's already handled, taken care of.
The topic is closed
I said no and do not bring this up again
would set off the waify crying about how mean I am to her. 

I do see that "It looks like my being here is upsetting you, we'll get together another time." is on the list.  That's almost the same as telling her that maybe she should go or maybe she shouldn't visit again if it causes her to be so upset.  I'll have my dad insisting that I have to fix it, because he will then have to deal with her meltdown, but that's his problem I guess.   

Hi Sidney37,

Medium chill is kind of tough when the parent is staying in your home. There's certain things that I don't talk to my M about that she would notice in my home. I think MC is mostly about keeping conversation off any hot topics, not sharing too much information about your life, & also about not reacting/showing the person that they are getting to you. Medium chill is a great tool but you still need boundaries. For example, I would have said something like "Mom, please leave the party planning to me. I understand that you are trying to help but I have things under control." Then change the subject or leave the room every time she brings up party plans. Yes, she might start waifing out but that's her problem. You cannot live your life doing whatever your parents tell you to do. You are an adult.

QuoteAfter years of snapping at her, I came here a few years ago and found out the key was to be calm.  I'm calm no matter what she says.  I'm to the point that I don't react at all.  But now saying anything that even seems like I might disagree with her, even in a totally detached, calm way, sets her off.  I just looked at the MC list.  I think even
It's none of your business.
It's already handled, taken care of.
The topic is closed
I said no and do not bring this up again
would set off the waify crying about how mean I am to her.

I do see that "It looks like my being here is upsetting you, we'll get together another time." is on the list.  That's almost the same as telling her that maybe she should go or maybe she shouldn't visit again if it causes her to be so upset.  I'll have my dad insisting that I have to fix it, because he will then have to deal with her meltdown, but that's his problem I guess. 

All of these are great examples of things to say. your M is going to get upset and there is no way around that. Your feelings matter just as much as your M's feelings - even more so because if you don't look out for you then no one else is going to (at least not your parents). If your M is being overly negative or mean then you should ask her to stop. There's no reason you need to put up with that. I highly recommend reading up on setting boundaries. It's a totally different concept than MC but you should use both.

Also, you don't owe it to your dad to make his life easier. He choose to marry your M, he can deal with her. It is complete BS that he expects you to sarafice your mental well-being for your M's happiness (my dad is the same way). You might even set a boundary with your dad like "It isn't my responsibility to keep M happy at the expense of my feelings. Please stop asking me to fix her feelings."

Good luck with everything. I know this isn't easy but it does get easier.

Quote from: Sidney37 on April 11, 2019, 12:01:09 PM
... We're not at that NC point again.  We were there several years ago. The stress of it literally caused her to have a breakdown with a trip to the ER, and I got blamed by everyone in the extended family.

Please do not feel responsible for your mother's breakdown.  You did not intend to cause her harm-- you just wanted to protect yourself and your family from further abuse.  You have no control over her reactions.  You may have gotten the blame by everyone in the extended family, but they surely don't know the whole story and, more importantly, you do not have to accept the blame they placed on you.

If you accept blame for this and allow your mother to continue her visits because of what you fear might happen to her in the future-- i.e., another breakdown-- you are effectively letting her feelings hold you hostage.  This is not right and you don't deserve it. 

Keep standing up for yourself and don't give your mother power over you.  As others have said, you are an adult, and you have the responsibility to YOURSELF to protect yourself, stand up for yourself and not allow others to make you feel small because of it (or blame you for their breakdowns).  A big part of coming Out of the FOG is realizing that you cannot make others happy and you have no control over their feelings or their happiness.  The "others" in your extended family who did not wish to ask your side of things and aligned themselves with your mother either blindly gave her their loyalty or were unwitting pawns in the game.  Either way, they don't deserve to have input on your guilt.  There are two kinds of guilt-- one kind is deserved and we know deep within that we intended to cause harm;  the other is undeserved and placed upon us for no good reason by those who haven't a clue as to what the genuine circumstances are.  The latter is the kind of guilt that needs to be dismissed and not given quarter in our lives.

I really have to agree with Illogical on this - you are not responsible if your mom has a breakdown or a "breakdown" and has to go to the ER, winds up in the hospital, gets upset, has a tantrum, or anything else she can manufacture as a way to *guilt* you into visits or talking on the phone.

She can smear you far and wide to others in your FOO and my response to that is:  SO WHAT?   :Idunno:

You can always tell those people this is between you and your mother, so kindly butt out and  don't bring it up again.   :ninja:

If they persist, block them.  The smart ones will start to see what you've known all along, and the ones who want to drink her kool aid can go right on drinking it, but you won't have to hear about it.  :ninja:

I mentioned in another post that your father is NOT your responsibility.  If your mom bullies him, and he allows it, he's an *adult* and he's made that *choice* for himself.  It's not up to you to rescue somebody who doesn't want to be rescued from a Dysfunctional Dance he clearly benefits him, somehow.

Your feelings *matter.*  Your DH's feelings *matter.*  Your kids' feelings *matter* - and they all take priority over your mom's feelings about anything.  :yes:

If you want to go back to NC, *do it* and ignore the fall out, which will probably be another "emergency" you'll be blamed for because that's how she got you to respond last time, so she's apt to do it again, or up her game.

That's the only thing she learned, I'm afraid:  To get Sidney to respond to me, I have to wind up at the ER, then get everybody on her case about it.   :dramaqueen: :bawl: :mad: :violin:

When I started lowering contact with unBPD Didi, she was determined to get me back in the loop and checking on her *daily* (NO!  :ninja:), so she kept having herself hospitalized, over and over again, for Makeitiupitis, while ignoring her many serious medical problems!   :stars:

She *thought* I'd have to come running - after all, it's a small city, and every hospital is just about 3-10 miles away, and she's my mooooooother.   :roll:

And since she *conveniently* would have these "emergencies" when my DH was out of town, she thought I had *no excuse* to spend 12+ mind-numbing hours a day, listening to her complain about everything.  :aaauuugh:

Didi was wrong.  I stayed home.  I never visited her.  And I also realized I was the one telling her when my DH was going go to go away, so I stopped that shit immediately!   :ninja:

No matter what she said or did, I kept on my lowering contact trajectory, and never visited her - even when she demanded I come and take a look at the bumps on her face, because no doctor would know what they were.   :wacko:

I told her to ask for a dermatology consult, she said she didn't want to BOTHER them, so I said, "Well, I don't know what to tell you then..." - and she slammed the phone down.   :roll:

The ONLY things they want are total obedience and control, while abdicating ALL accountability (by going Waif) - and that flies in the face of us normal folks, who have *boundaries.*  8-)

The boundaries are for YOU.  If your boundary is, "I am not putting up with this for one more second and NC is the only way." - that's what you DO.    8-)

Your parents are adults and responsible for their own emotions, and you are NOT.  Your job isn't to caretake them, emotionally, or tell them they're right when they're not, just to keep the peace - your job is to live your life to the fullest, and hopefully be happy and successful in all your endeavors.  :sunny:

If your mom is going to be SUCH a force of negativity in your life, your DH's life, and the lives of your kids, you're better off without her - and if you went back, read your own post, but substituted the word, "boyfriend" for mother, you'd be very quick to agree with me:  yes, this is an abusive relationship that must end.  >:(

You don't live your life to keep your mother happy.  You're an *adult* and you no longer have to rely on her being in a good mood to ensure your very survival.

I think it would be wise for you to end this relationship before 5, 10 years go by and oh my God, she's actually getting WORSE!   And will continue to get even worse as she ages!  :aaauuugh:

Take it from my experience - one she hits her 60's, baby, you ain't seen *nothing* yet.   :jawdrop:

Didi, who was in her late 70's, got it into her head that she was owed a hospital bed in our living room, with me to wait on her, 24/7, and nothing was going to disabuse her of that idea (magical thinking - if I want it, I will GET it) - including me telling her it wasn't going to happen.

Now, I wish I'd had the courage to block her number and be done with it, but hindsight it funny like that.  :doh:

But you can save yourself and your FOC a lot of grief  if you go back to NC now, and stick with it, no matter what she throws at you.  She will probably throw a *lot* - but stand firm, knowing you really are doing the right thing.   :yes:

:hug:

Thanks WI.  I really appreciate your insight and experience.  So for some practical advice on all of this.  I gave her some exact responses from the toolbox  last night on the phone  in a calm, kind voice.  She kept insisting that I was being short with her.  Insisted that I was short and snippy and demanded to know why.  I assured her i wasn't being short, but I'm a talker, so she knows something's up.  She was insisting on knowing why I was being short with her, what my problem was and why I was treating her this way.  I managed to change the subject to a news story in her town i have knowledge of.  I was short with her.  I said I wasn't.  Is that what I was supposed to do?  It felt like I was lying. 

Oh WI,  she's already in her 70s and I just see it getting worse from here. 

Quote from: Sidney37 on April 12, 2019, 09:29:10 AM
... I gave her some exact responses from the toolbox  last night on the phone  in a calm, kind voice.  She kept insisting that I was being short with her.  Insisted that I was short and snippy and demanded to know why.  I assured her i wasn’t being short, but I’m a talker, so she knows something’s up. She was insisting on knowing why I was being short with her, what my problem was and why I was treating her this way. I managed to change the subject to a news story in her town i have knowledge of.  I was short with her.  I said I wasn’t.  Is that what I was supposed to do?  It felt like I was lying. 

If you responded in a calm, kind voice as you posted you did, you weren't being short with your mother.  "Being short" with someone means you are being curt and rude in your response.

Your mother is not going to like Medium Chill.  In fact, she's likely not going to like anything you do short of 100% compliance.  By that I mean no criticism on your part, no taking issue with anything she says, agreeing with her all the time, acknowledging that she is always right and never wrong and basically taking the blame for anything and everything that goes wrong in her life.

So IMO, when you decide to use Medium Chill on someone, you have to lower your expectations and realize they aren't going to like it. 

My suggestions are--

*start cutting back on the phone calls & make yourself unavailable until you want to initiate contact.  If this results in The Silent Treatment, let it happen.  If it results in her frantically trying to contact you because she thinks something horrible has happened, let it happen.  Let her calls go to v-mail for awhile until you are ready to contact her.

*If she says anything again like she said last night, state your position but only once and don't argue with her.  Example--

Your mother:  "You are being short with me."
You:  "No, I'm not."
Your mother:  "Yes you are! You are being short and snippy and I want to know why!"
You:  "I'm not going to argue with you.  I'm sorry you feel that way."
Your mother:  "Tell me what is going on."
You:  "I've already told you that nothing is going on and I have nothing more to say.  If you have nothing more to say, I'll talk to you later. "

If your mother continues and persists because she won't give it up, you end the call.  "Talk to you later, bye." And hang up the phone.

As long as you are giving your mother polite and airy responses in a non-combative way (and unemotional way), you are using Medium Chill.  The parameters are that you don't JADE as to "what is going on" and you refuse to argue or go round and round in circular conversations until she wears you down.  You end the phone call before it comes to that point.

I was LC with my mother for about a year, then VLC for about six months, then I went NC because my NM trampled every boundary I erected.  She had no respect for me or my boundaries. 

Medium Chill and erecting boundaries and going LC or VLC-- well, PDs don't like any of it.  It has been my experience that you cannot let your guard down for a minute.  Some days are more successful than others.  But for me, Medium Chill and boundaries bought me valuable time that I needed to think things through.  In my case, I gradually let go of the rope.  I cut the visits back, then completely out.  I then cut the calls back, then let go of the rope altogether.

You have to decide what is best for you as far as the level of contact.  There are no easy fixes here or quick answers.  It's a journey.   :yes:

Thank you.  My answers to her weren't as lengthy as usual.  They were calm, kind and from the toolbox.  Shorter answers means to her that i'm "being short", "mad at her" and "being mean". She's not going to like this one bit.  She walks right over boundaries and when I call her on it, she cries that I am so mean. I refuse to make any decisions for her even though she tries to get me to.  That one I do great at.  This is going to be hard, but necessary.  Thanks!

You don't have to have short conversations with Medium Chill.  It's not the same as Grey Rock, although they are both a means to emotionally detach.

My mother was a narcissist, so she always wanted the conversation to revolve around her or my GC brother.

When I used Medium Chill, sometimes I would go on and on and on about a topic I knew didn't interest her.  For example, a dissertation on "How to Peel a Potato", e.g. :zzz:   After a few minutes of this, she would beat a path to get off the phone with me.  Any attempt on her part to try to change the conversation back to her or GC bro was met with another diversion on my part to continue the saga of the peeled potato.  Yep.  I turned into the most boring and uninteresting person on the planet.  I can tell you from experience this works.  Try it.  It's a good way to cut a conversation short. 

Illogical...I've done something similar with uPDh a few times...Just made small talk to avoid other topics..

Tonight I rambled on and on about a local news story (local to me, not her) with lots and lots of detail.  She was sighing, yawning and all around bored.  Then she decided she was too bored to be on the phone and had to go.  I think I see the difference between just using the phrases in the toolbox and being utterly boring and still chatty. 

Quote from: illogical on April 12, 2019, 02:06:15 PMMy mother was a narcissist, so she always wanted the conversation to revolve around her or my GC brother.

When I used Medium Chill, sometimes I would go on and on and on about a topic I knew didn't interest her.  For example, a dissertation on "How to Peel a Potato", e.g. :zzz:   After a few minutes of this, she would beat a path to get off the phone with me.  Any attempt on her part to try to change the conversation back to her or GC bro was met with another diversion on my part to continue the saga of the peeled potato.  Yep.  I turned into the most boring and uninteresting person on the planet.  I can tell you from experience this works.  Try it.  It's a good way to cut a conversation short.

This worked with topics that were of genuine interest to me! Anything outside their monologue that they couldn't pretend to know more than me about... "Well, I guess I'll let you go..."

You handled her like a BOSS!   8-)

I'd sometimes bore Didi with the topic of cooking, since she had absolutely no interest in it, but I had to stop when she Waifed, "I  wish SOMEBODY would do my cooking."  :dramaqueen:

That got a response of, "Call Meals on Wheels and have them sign you up."

Her response?  "I don't want to BOTHER them."

So I said, "Well, I don't know what to tell you..." - and she slammed the phone down in my ear.

That became a regular occurrence, because, in Didi's mind, I was *malfunctioning* and not investing myself in her, like she thought I should.   :roll:

Didi was one you really couldn't have conversations with, like the opening of a jewelry store, because it would *always* come back to, "I wish SOMEBODY would take me there."

So  I wound up sticking to gardening, the weather, and the latest episode of House, MD, that she'd seen for the five billionth time, while inferring *somebody* needed to find a doctor like that for her.

Sorry, he doesn't exist and no, I don't have Harry Potter's phone number.   :bigwink:

Those were the only safe topics - everything else was loaded and just ripe for turning it around and making it *all about Didi.*   :dramaqueen:

If your mom is in her 70's, this stuff is going to go off the rails in epic fashion, unless you get a handle on it - by lowering contact significantly, only calling maybe once every week or two, not responding immediately to messages that say, "I need to ask you something..." (chances are, it's not important, and she'll have forgotten by the time you call), and becoming *comfortable* with YOUR boundaries.   :yes:

Those boundaries may include no more visits to yours, because she upsets the kids and picks on you, no more visits to hers, because it's her lair (home turf and comfort zone) and ONLY meeting in public, like a restaurant.   :)

She is going to hate every bit of this and rail against it - including Medium Chill and boring conversation topics - with the power of ten thousand suns, constantly try to test boundaries by ignoring them, saying you're being mean, having tantrums over nothing, and constantly having "medical emergencies."

IGNORE it all and *stick to your boundaries, no matter what she pulls.*   8-)

Eventually, you probably will get SO sick of how vapid, shallow and self-centered she is and decide  NC is, once again, your best option because you actually can't *stand* talking to her.

I got to that point with Didi - she was a hateful, petty, venial, spiteful, malicious creature, who thought everybody owed her something - especially me.  :no:

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, it's excellent.  It can be a bit on the religious side, but not *too* religious, if you know what I mean.  I didn't find it off-putting at all.  :)

You can get it on Amazon, in various formats, and I think you'll find it helpful - and in the early days, we often need all the help we can get!   ;D

Illogical wrote:

*If she says anything again like she said last night, state your position but only once and don't argue with her.  Example--

Your mother:  "You are being short with me."
You:  "No, I'm not."
Your mother:  "Yes you are! You are being short and snippy and I want to know why!"
You:  "I'm not going to argue with you.  I'm sorry you feel that way."
Your mother:  "Tell me what is going on."
You:  "I've already told you that nothing is going on and I have nothing more to say.  If you have nothing more to say, I'll talk to you later. "

I wanted to include that, because I LOVE it - and had to use it on Didi a time or two - she always opted for slamming the phone down on me, because she had to have the last word.

BTW - that slamming the phone down thing?  I took it to mean I'd *succeeded* in sticking to my boundaries - not that I'd intentionally upset her.  She was going to get upset, no matter what I said or did, if it wasn't in perfect *compliance* with the thoughts in her head that she wouldn't articulate, but expected me to pick out of thin air.   :blink:

Your mom may do the same thing, or pull another thing out of her endless arsenal of how to convey she's upset - please, don't fall for any of them, or let them trip you up, especially the dreaded Nice Act - which is exactly what it sounds like - an *act* she can't keep up for very long, before reverting to type.

You've GOT this, Sidney!   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

:hug:

Thanks all.  I'm still trying to navigate through this.  I live several hours away but like many of you there is an expectation that I call every day and that she knows my location every day.  If I don't, the guilt trips start. 

Part of the guilt trip is the interrogation.  How do you answer the direct questions?  I can only limit the information that I give  to her.  Some things will be known even if I block her on social media and limit all info because my kids school and activities have social media accounts and my friends and my iLs have social media.   

"Why didn't you call me yesterday?  Where were you that you couldn't call?  What were you doing that was so important that you couldn't call me?Exactly what time did you get back from the ... (kid activity) yesterday since you didn't call me?  When did you get back from your ILs house?  Why didn't you call me when you got back?  Your FILs FB said you left yesterday.  How many days were you visiting your friend?   Why didn't you call me as soon as you got back?  I thought the ... (kid event) was over at 8?  Where were you after and why did't you call me?".

I don't want to JADE but don't want to be accused of being "short and snippy" like I was last week.   The questions seem somewhat innocent to outsiders and conversational, but they aren't.  She then tells my dad and other relatives how mean I am if I don't fully and completely answer all of the interrogation.  She'll whine that she just cares so much, I'd interested in my life and I'm sooooooo mean.  I just asked what she did yesterday and she won't tell meeeeee!

In college if I didn't call daily, she threatened to stop paying her portion of my tuition.  I was paying more of it myself with scholarships, loans and 2 part time jobs, but couldn't have made up the less than 1/4 portion she paid.  Once she taunted me that she didn't tell me that an out of town relative died because I didn't call her for a whole weekend in college.  I found out months later. 

From everything you've written here, your M seems extremely toxic. She doesn't need to know every iota of your business because you are an adult with your own life and your own responsibilities and frankly she ain't one of them.  :no: I'm honestly annoyed on your behalf.

She has zero right to interrogate you. I want you to say that over to yourself enough times until you believe it and you feel it in your bones! Say it out loud, say it to the mirror!  :bigwink: You were busy, that's why you didn't call. Period. What were you busy with? None of her beeswax (I'm not suggesting you say it that way, lol). She reads like a stalker harassing their victim. This level of obsession is unhealthy for her and you both. She's crushing you with her demands and she is incapable of seeing you as anything but an extension of herself. You are not a separate entity to her, that's why she's "all up in your business." Because she believes it is her business. The bad thing about stalkers is that as you shut them out, they start to lose their freaking minds.

If you do not call her, she won't die. If you do not call her what's the worst she can do? Withhold family information? Okay, that's worth peace of mind to me, what about you? Will she give you the silent treatment/treat? Great! Awesome, that means she isn't bugging you nonstop to know every tiny little thing about your life. Which, if she's anything like my mom, she would promptly use as fodder to gossip with everybody else. There go your secrets...

"Why aren't you answering me! I'm your mother!" Somebody call the wahmbulance. :stars:

Anything you tell her will be used to guilt trip you. A financial adviser online that I love, Dave Ramsey, would call her "A travel agent for guilt trips." Keep up the hard work and be strong in the face of adversity! We fight the hard fight! For our privacy no less.

Regarding relatives, I decided at a certain point that if my relatives were only my PDF's relatives - that is to say, only loyal to him, only listening to him, only having a relationship with him - then I was Ok letting them go. I had a few honest conversations where I said - I am going to talk to you more openly than in the past. I care about you and hope you will still be able to be my loved one. I want to be able to be real with you.

I learned who is really my loved one and I feel more comfortable in family situations knowing some people know he truth and I'm not just in a PDF-centered charade.

I've decided that most of my relatives aren't particularly close to me, but to her and most are her flying monkeys.  I've taken huge steps away from them in recent years.  That was much easier.  I hate when my dad calls me and lectures me for "being mean" to my mother.  He has his own list of ways to avoid her and hide from her, but honestly he isn't able to make a single decision for himself.  She tells him everything he must do every day including what to eat and what clothes to wear.  He wants me to keep up with the way things always have been so he doesn't have to hear about it. 

Quote from: Andeza on April 19, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
Great! Awesome, that means she isn't bugging you nonstop to know every tiny little thing about your life. Which, if she's anything like my mom, she would promptly use as fodder to gossip with everybody else. There go your secrets...

That is part of what prompted me to realize I was deeply back in the FOG during her visit a few weeks ago.  I found out that she was telling her church friends all about medical issues I have had in the past year that are not the business of the people that she has told.  I'm not supposed to tell anyone anything about her.  She doesn't want me posting anything on social media that she doesn't like.  She's been known to call me to ask me to remove a post of something funny that one of my kids did.    But she can tell whoever she wants about my private medical issues.  Well they aren't going to be told to her either.

Quote from: Sidney37 on April 19, 2019, 08:58:04 AM
... I live several hours away but like many of you there is an expectation that I call every day and that she knows my location every day.  If I don't, the guilt trips start. 

That might be her expectation, but too bad.  You are changing the rules. 

You are an adult and you get to choose when and if you call your mother and how long you engage with her.  You are not a child anymore.  She does not have the financial power over you she once did.  She can no longer threaten to withhold money.  If she threatens disinheritance, you have to decide if a promise of inheritance is worth compliance with Her Majesty. 

I would start by letting a couple of days go by and not calling her.  Let her ring your phone off the wall.  Don't answer.  Let it go to v-mail.  You have stated in a previous post that she doesn't act out nearly as bad when your DH is around.  If you get a message on your cell that she is going to call the police or something drastic because she's in a panic as to your whereabouts, get your husband to call her back and say that you are very busy right now and will call her back when you have time.  Period. 

She won't like anything short of 100% compliance, as I stated in a previous post.  So get used to the fact she will probably pull out all the stops to keep you in line and not breaking away from the dysfunction.  There are lots of good ideas in the Toolbox on what to do and what not to do. 

I would start weaning her off your business.  Put her on an information diet.  Use a combo of medium chill and grey rock.  She will likely escalate her dysfunctional behavior when you don't back off.  There must, however, be consequences for her trampling your boundaries, and those consequences are that she doesn't get to engage with you as often.  You can choose how "honest" you want to be with her regarding your boundaries.  It has been my personal experience that telling a PD your plans is a big waste of time and actually can harm your strategy because it gives them more info-- i.e., ammo-- to twist and spin and use against you. 

Ignore the guilt she is trying to impose on you.  That's left over from your childhood.  Keep telling yourself that she has no power over you now.  You have the right to live your own life without interference from her.  You also have a responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from further abuse by her.  And her wanting to know where you are every second and why you don't call every day is abusive, in the sense that it's harassment and stalking-like behavior, as others have pointed out.

Keep to your boundaries and don't let her move you from your position with a guilt trip.  You haven't done anything wrong.  Tell yourself (you don't have to tell your mother) that "I have a boundary that I'm only going to call mother twice a week."  Then stick to it.  Get your husband to help you with communication.  If she waifs and freaks and cries that you are being mean, let her.   Stand in your castle with the drawbridge up and the moat filled with alligators (you can find these "alligators" in the Toolbox under "What to Do").  :yes:

Regarding your dad, he and your mother are a "package deal".  Having one set of rules for your mother and another set for him likely won't work.  So any boundary you erect aimed at your mother will have to go for your father as well, Like only calling them once or twice a week.

I agree - just because she expects to know your location, every moment of every day, doesn't mean she's *entitled* to that information.  You were out.  Or you were busy.  No, you didn't keep track of the time.  I dunno.  What are you, like, my parole officer? 

That one actually made Didi laugh, because I put on a comical, sort of incredulous voice when I said it - and I also didn't answer her question.  :ninja:

Normally, Didi was privy to most of the information in my life, so I had to put her on a VERY strict Information Diet, that included not telling her a thing about my location or comings and goings, or I'd get a guilt trip about not inviting her along.   :dramaqueen: :bawl:

So I  mainly stuck to, "Oh, I was busy."  Oh, you know - the usual.  Things and stuff around here.  You know how it is - never a dull moment at Casa de Funny Farm.     :ninja:

That was the ONLY information she'd get out of me, before I'd turn it around and start talking about gardening, the weather, or stupid criminals who basically got themselves caught by authorities, because I could put a funny spin on those stories and get her off my butt.   8-)

Your mother is going to hate  what you're doing, unless it's being totally compliant to her wishes, so it's best to get used to that now, and get comfortable with that guilty, uncomfortable feeling, while letting it sink in that NO, you are doing *nothing wrong.*   :yes:

And it may help to remember you're an *adult* and your mother can't actually DO anything to you:  she can't ground you.  She can't send you to your room without supper.  She can't take away your car keys or confiscate your phone.  She can't spank you!   

There is nothing she can do but use words and FOG to keep you under her thumb - unless YOU stop her with *boundaries.*   8-)

As you put up boundaries and your mom fights against them or tramples them, consider  giving her a Time Out for X amount of time of your choosing - but if she keeps calling and calling, making more and more  ridiculous or outrageous statements that *you don't respond to until the Time Out is *over*   :ninja:  - you're going to notice something important.

She's probably going to start really annoying the hell out of you.  You may roll your eyes at first, or mutter, "Lady, give it a rest!" as you delete yet another voice mail  demanding this or that, but I'm willing to bet that one of these days, in the very near  future, your annoyance will  turn to *anger.*   :sunny:

How DARE you?  Who the hell do you think you are?  You don't OWN me!  And I don't have to tell you a damned thing!   >:(

Anger isn't always a negative emotion - we were told it was  when we were kids, and not allowed to express it, but it just isn't true.  Anger can be a positive emotion when it causes us to think about things and make changes in our lives.   :yes:

It's REALLY easy to lay down boundaries and not take any PD crap  once you get *angry* about it - but never, ever let it reflect in your voice and words, when dealing with her.   :ninja:

That was Didi's fatal mistake with me - she made me good and angry, which made all that FOG lift.  I could see clearly she was trying to manipulate me, and I wasn't having it.   :no_shake:

I think you're going to get to that point soon, because your mother sounds like a totally toxic piece of work - especially when she insists you're being short, rude and snippy with her, when you aren't.

Remember what Illogical said about, "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I'll talk to you later when you're not so upset..." - and ending the conversation.   :ninja:

One of those times, you're going to hang up, give your phone the old Stink Eye and say, "What a b....!"   >:( :roll:

Believe it or not, that's PROGRESS.   :yahoo:

You've GOT this, Sidney!   :cheer: :cheer:

Let her stew for a few days - and consider skipping the Obligatory Easter Call, if that's your thing.  If put to the question later about it, tell her only that you were busy and lost track of time  - then change the subject.   :ninja:

If she can't keep a civil tongue in her head and starts making demands - end the call.  "You're upset.  We'll talk later.  Goodbye."   :ninja:

And consider putting her in an even *longer* Time Out.   :yes:

No, it won't make her change or  behave, but it'll give you more time and distance, and you'll start to put things in perspective, which is the important part.   :)

:hug:

Thanks all.  I'm not sure why this is harder than it seems. I guess years and years of guilt and manipulation have landed me at this point.   I haven't talked to her in several days.  But now I think I'm now getting the silent treatment.  She's made no effort to call me, which should be a blessing, but it's stressing me out as to what's to come when I do talk to her.

To add to all of the rest, she is furious that when I had less than 48 hours over spring break this week to take my kids somewhere fun, they picked an activity/location in a city that was about 1-2 hours from her house.   We didn't have time to visit her, too.  We had less than 48 hours because we had to be back home for something.  They had 3 things in that particular city that they had been asking to do for years, none of which my parents would have spent the money to do or would want to participate in.   We called and told her that we were going when in the car on the way.  It was a "we're so excited...guess what fun thing we decided to do today" call.  My kids were excited about the last minute trip, and she was furious because we were so close and not visiting her.  We just saw her for over a week 2 weeks ago and frankly, it didn't go well. 

I decided to tell her because my oldest is on social media, had every intention of posting about this fun thing we were doing and my parents would have seen the post.  I didn't need them posting something passive aggressive or nasty as a reaction and upsetting my child in front of school friends.  We had such little time there that I didn't contact even one of my 10+ friends who live in the area to get together with them.  My in-laws live nearby, and we didn't make arrangements to see them either.  This was a 2 day trip for my kids to do whatever they wanted to do and had been asking to do for 2 years.  It was also the first vacation (while short) that didn't involve any grandparents in years.  Not one of my parenting decisions was questioned or undermined!  That's certainly a win!

So, I didn't call for several days and I was in a town close to them and didn't visit.  My heart is racing from the stress of what she will say when I do talk to her.   I feel like I'm as stressed as I would have been if I snuck out in the middle of the night and got caught as a teen (which is something I never would have done).  I agree, there is no consequence other than the nasty comments, threatening to disinherit me (which I totally don't care about, there likely won't be much of anything to inherit) and the smear campaign.  I've been taught that it's terrible to look bad in front of other people and the way she will twist this for the people we both know will certainly make me look awful.  My DH questions why I care when I don't  live there anymore. He's right, so I'm not sure what has me so worried.  Then again, he doesn't talk to his family for months at a time.  I'm also so afraid that I will screw up the medium chill and gray rock and end up snapping at her.  I keep practicing the things in the tool box, but in the heat of the moment, I'm afraid that I will forget how to respond and give too much information that will lead to more interrogation.  This shouldn't be so stressful! 

Hi Sidney37,

Yes, you are right in your assessment that "I guess years and years of guilt and manipulation have landed me at this point."  It's called "grooming" or brainwashing.  You have been groomed to take the blame for stuff you didn't do, as well as take responsibility for your mother's moods and feelings, none of which ever were are are now your responsibility.

Celebrate the Silent Treatment!  I would stake a large bet that when your mother grows tired of punishing you, she will call you up and very likely act like nothing has happened. 

Have a script of Medium Chill and Grey Rock responses handy to grab when she does call.  Take a few deep breaths after she says whatever it is she says.  You don't have to give an immediate response.  Say "Oh" or "Hmm" or "Well" to buy yourself a few seconds to look at your script and give her a Medium Chill or Grey Rock.  If you feel the conversation is escalating, or you feel she is pushing you to defend yourself or explain, i.e., JADE, end the conversation.  "Gotta go now.  Very, very busy." 

It's normal to feel like you do-- apprehensive-- because you know she's not going to respond well.  Very likely she will either try to sweep everything under the rug that has happened (after she feels she has "punished" you enough with the Silent Treatment) or she will call and put on the Waif Act or the You're So Mean to Me act.  Grab your script of responses, give a minimal response and then say "Sorry you feel that way" and get off the phone!  If she protests that you won't talk to her, say "I said I'm busy and I'm going to end this conversation."  Then end it. 

I know it's hard right now, but you can do this.  You don't have to see her in person.  Don't do that until you are ready.  Keep phone conversations to a minimum.  Don't call her right now.  Let her call you.  Then be prepared!  Take care.

So here's the update.   I didn't talk to them for 3 days, 2 of which I was out of town.  I called twice today at times I knew they were home.  I could tell from their online presence/posts that they were there.  They didn't answer nor did they call me back.  Now tonight the passive aggressive meme posting about how people treat each other has begun.  :aaauuugh:  There was daily passive aggressive meme posting of the same "how to treat your parents" memes when they gave me the silent treatment for months several years ago.  That time, before I found this site,  I flipped out and yelled at her over something totally inappropriate/downright mean that she said/did during a serious family emergency.  She left my house in the middle of the emergency when I needed help and gave me the silent treatment for months after.  She totally blamed me because I yelled and swore at her.  She made me feel like it was my fault because I snapped.  Nothing she did was wrong in her opinion. 

This time I'm getting the silent treatment and passive aggressive memes because I took a short trip with my kids near their house that didn't include them and didn't call for 3 days - 3 days!   :stars: If it's like it was the last time, I'll have my name removed as beneficiary on their life insurance policy and they won't talk to me for months.  Of course, that's fine with me.  If I'm no longer executor or POA I don't have to do anything as they age.  Nothing.  I have heard before if I really loved them I would call every day.  It only takes a few minutes to call and it's disrespectful not to.  That's not normal, right?  Some of my friends do talk to their parents daily, but this seems crazy.  WI, my annoyance has turned to anger already.  It didn't take long.  She's not sweeping this under the rug, but pulling out all of the stops and it puts my PTSD into overdrive.

I'm sorry, Sidney - but eventually, you're going to be okay!   :)

I'd take this opportunity to invite your DH and kids - and you - to BLOCK AWAY.  :ninja:

Use the Silent Treat to initiate No Contact.  Block social media.  Block phone numbers.  Block email.  Everywhere you can - just block them.   :yes:

You did *nothing wrong.*  A 1-2 hour drive is "only" a 1-2  hour drive if  something *positive* awaits at the end of it  - and nothing positive awaited at the end of the drive to see your parents.   :stars: :P :aaauuugh:

Instead, you had a nice time - focus on that, and fie and a pox on your parents.   :bigwink:

IME, it is *not normal* to call a parent or parents every single day - that's what unBPD  Didi  had me trained to do, and as soon as I decided to put limits on that, she couldn't contain herself, either insisting I was *hiding* things from her (yeah, my entire life, so she couldn't  tell me everything I was doing wrong!    :bigwink:) or having herself hospitalized for more of the same old, same old.   :dramaqueen: :violin:

Keep that anger - allow it to settle in.  How DARE you?  The NERVE of you!  You are UNREASONABLE and this relationship is unsustainable.  I am NOT sitting on a shelf, waiting for my marching orders   -  nobody in this family does that.  We are not your SERVANTS  or your SERFS - and we're definitely not your cardboard cut-outs, appearing only in pictures to impress others because the optics are good for you, when we  get nothing but shame, grief, misery, aggravation and annoyance when we visit your liar.   >:(

Get *comfortable* with it.  Sit with it.  Let it work in.   :yes:

That's the REAL narrative - not the one your parents feed you.

They can keep deluding themselves - you know the truth.  8-)

And yes - if you suspect they have nothing but complications, being removed as a beneficiary on the life insurance and as POA are a *blessing.*   :yahoo:

If they're throwing that at you, SURPRISE!  You were IT!  The one they chose to move in with or demand you spend the majority of time at theirs as a  CAREGIVER, while having no  life of your own and ignoring your own FOC!  :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

You will earn every penny of it, ten times over, in your blood, sweat, tears, mental anguish, and the constant emotional torture of never being able to do a single thing right, fast enough, cheerful enough, etc...

That's my experience, anyway - and I avoided it by avoiding Didi and Ray like the plague.  :ninja:

If your sibs decide to do the same thing - GOOD.  They deserve better.   :thumbup:

Your parents made their own mess - they can clean it up, and live without you as an emotional  toilet for all their problems, phobias, anxieties and medical problems, either real, imagined or tarted up, because cancer is the new sexy now  and everybody should come running at the mere mention of it!   :roll:

Like Galadriel, I went to the West - but I didn't diminish.   8-)

Didi and Ray did, without the farce they wanted, propping them up and *covering* for them, while pretending to fake concern or caring.

That was  too  emotionally damaging.   I opted out. 

You can do the same  - let the anger lead you to make *healthy* decisions, and you'll be okay.  :)

It takes as long as it takes, but know you ARE doing the right thing in protecting yourself and arming your FOC with the consent to BLOCK!   :sunny:

:hug:

Thanks again WI for the validation and encouragement.  I spent last night reading about covert narcissism.  Deep down I think I wasn't sure that my mom was really a PD because she wasn't a stereotypical narcissist and didn't have the symptoms of BPD . She really doesn't fit any of the others.   I read article after article to my DH about covert narcissism and together we checked off every box.  Somehow confirming that she truly is a narcissist helped it to all sink in.  Years of being here without it totally sinking in, but then reading example after example helped it to all make sense.  It helped me to understand that she is certainly toxic even if other people see her as something very different than we do.  One article actually said that NC is often the only way to deal with covert narcissists.  It's apparently easier to use MC and gray rock with other PDs, but apparently much less likely to work with covert narcissists.  This certainly isn't going to be easy.

Can I post links to articles here?  I found it today and it really hit home. This explains the difference between an overt and covert narcissist.  I didn't know that covert narcissism existed until recently.  It's apparently what I've been dealing with my entire life.  It explains so much.  I always thought of NPD in a certain way.  It didn't quite fit, because I was just thinking about and reading about the symptoms of overt narcissism.  This is long, but explains exactly what is going on and how I react to it.   

http://parenting.exposed/the-covert-narcissistic-parent/

That article is very interesting. Thank you for posting it. I agree with WI that it isn't normal to call parents every day. It is especially not normal to say anything akin to "It's disrespectful not to" or "you would if you really loved me." Regarding the latter phrase, I've  learned that if anyone says, "If you really loved me, you would..." I should run immediately in the other direction.

I can think of no person I want to talk to on the phone other day. For me, it is normal to be busy with my life and have multiple friends such that I am not dependent on any one person for my emotional sustenance.

Do you ever just say some version of "because it's not reasonable to talk to you ever day" or "I shouldn't have to call you daily"?   I'm going 2-3 days without talking and now my dad is posting snarky memes on social media about how to treat people, likely because she is lying and manipulating.  I've said I'm "busy" when interrogated as to why I haven't called, and changed the subject, but they are clearly angry.  Conversations are short and she is very passive aggressive at which point I say I have to go. 

He doesn't know any of the mean, controlling comments she made when she was here a few weeks ago, so he thinks I'm limiting contact for no reason.  He only hears her crying about how mean I am to her.  Do I tell him?  Is it even with defending myself to the enabler who is more controlled and bossed around than I am?

Quote from: Sidney37 on April 25, 2019, 08:44:55 AM
Do you ever just say some version of "because it's not reasonable to talk to you ever day" or "I shouldn't have to call you daily"?   I'm going 2-3 days without talking and now my dad is posting snarky memes on social media about how to treat people, likely because she is lying and manipulating.  I've said I'm "busy" when interrogated as to why I haven't called, and changed the subject, but they are clearly angry.  Conversations are short and she is very passive aggressive at which point I say I have to go. 

He doesn't know any of the mean, controlling comments she made when she was here a few weeks ago, so he thinks I'm limiting contact for no reason.  He only hears her crying about how mean I am to her.  Do I tell him?  Is it even with defending myself to the enabler who is more controlled and bossed around than I am?

I think if you give a reason for not calling every day you are JADEing and setting yourself up for a circular conversation.  Your mother is very likely going to attack any reason you give for not calling daily, no matter how "reasonable" it is.  To her, any thing short of 100% compliance is not reasonable.

You do not have to give a reason for not calling every day.  It's your life and your time-- you get to choose whom you spend it with and how often you engage.    IMHO, if you give your mother a reason, she will just pick it apart, or put on the "How Could You Be So Mean To Me" Act and you are back at square one.

I also would not try to "explain things" to your father.  He is a "package deal" with your mother.  Anything you say to him will go straight to her as though there were a pipeline attached between them.

My advice is for you to stick to your boundaries.  Be prepared for your mother to escalate when she figures out she's getting no where with the Silent Treatment.  A "medical emergency" is clearly within the realm of possibility.  She might be on the verge of another "breakdown".  I think it's critical here that you remain in control and don't go rushing to her side, should something like this happen.  Show her through your behavior that she doesn't control you.  This is a power struggle, but you have the power. :yes:

No medical emergency yet!  Thank goodness.  I didn't call for days.  We talked today.  I mentioned someone she hardly knows losing their job as a way to keep the topic off of her insulting or talking about me.  It seemed like a good, boring topic that would't interest her.  I was caught by surprise when this took a turn to why that person should have picked a different college degree and then criticism after criticism about why I didn't finish a particular advanced degree, how my college major was wrong, how all of my job and career choices were wrong and how I should have just listened to her to have gotten it right.  Of course her memory about why my advanced degree wasn't finished was incorrect.  He memory about why my major was what it was - incorrect, too.  :stars:  In her mind all of these things were totally my fault for being a quitter,  failure and making totally wrong choices about everything I did.   I felt like I was JADEing by reminding her that she was totally wrong about why these things played out the way they did.  She still wouldn't let it go.  I tried to change the subject and she kept it up.  I told her that I had to get ready to pick my kids up from school (2 hours before pick up time!!!) and hung up.  Ugh...  She's showing her true colors and I'm not really interested in talking to her at all.  No wonder I struggled to pick a major and a career.  It didn't matter what decisions I have ever made.  They aren't hers, therefore they are wrong, wrong, wrong. 

I'm so sorry, Sidney!   :bighug:

You're finding out - just like I found out - that NO topic is really safe to discuss, because it always manages to get turned around to make you look stupid or bad, and somehow, she's a victim, because *you didn't listen to her.*

My response to that was:

1.  Call even *less* and ignore all barbs about she thought I was dead or had run away from home, and counter only with, "I was busy" *without elaborating.*  :ninja:

Busy.  Oh, the usual.  I don't want to bore you.  You know - never a dull moment.  8-)

2.  Stick to ONLY gardening or the weather as topics, which gets really boring, really quickly and gets you off the phone - oh, gotta go.  Talk to you soon.  :ninja:

3.  DO NOT respond to prodding, prompting, nosy, inquisitive questions that really  are none of her business, because they'll be turned around and used against you.

4.  Be boring AF.  I mean, bucket of wallpaper paste boring.  :evil2:

5.  As soon as the claws come out, *end the call* - ring your own doorbell, if you have to, or make your dryer buzz.  Set the timer off - *any*  prompt that signals you have something else to do is helpful, until you're comfortable enough in saying, "I have to go" without a sound to back you up.  :ninja:

6.  If she starts working herself into a froth, you can always say, "I can't talk to you when you're this upset.  We'll talk again soon." - and hang up.

"Soon" is open to *your* interpretation - and I'd make it at least a week.  :yes:

7.  If she insists you should be calling daily, it might be time to push back with, "That's not possible."

When asked WHY - "I just told you why.  It's not possible."

If she demands a reason, "Because I said so" works well because you're basically dealing with a toddler in an adult's body - and she should be treated as such.  :yes:

:hug:

Thanks for the suggestions!  I needed to hear those.   

I'm finding that a gradual switch from every day calls and no privacy/boundaries is better than totally switching it off.  When I tried this before I went "cold turkey" so to speak and it was a nightmare.  She was raging angry and ended up in the hospital, but this time she is just very  insulting, giving me guilt trips and passive aggressive.   I'm extending the days longer and longer each time - 1-2 days in between, 2-3 days.  My goal is about 4-5 days or a week, but at this rate it might be much longer between calls.  Less extreme changes and not raging this way.  I should have thought of that before now.  It's truly like training a toddler.   

I thought I was onto something by talking about people who she doesn't know, so she felt like she was getting personal info, but really she wasn't because it was about people she didn't know at all.  Well that backfired, didn't it?  I'm going to have to make a list of topics that are totally boring.  I kept trying to talk about the weather today as a way to distract, but that didn't get me more than about 45 seconds of conversation.  Rain was an excuse for her to complain about all of the things my father couldn't do because it was raining.

What else did you talk about?  Did you have a list?  Did you talk about Didi herself?  Did you ask about her, her friends, any activities she might have?  I don't want to feed into her desire to say mean things about me because any question about her friends or activities turns into how their children visit or do those activities with them.   I asked her about how the sermon was at Easter services and got a guilt-trippy list of all of my former classmates who came to town to see their mothers for Easter.  I didn't ask that.  I asked what the sermon was about, because I didn't think that would get me guilt-tripped.  I asked again.  Another guilt trip about who was there and I wasn't.  I asked about the music.  What songs did you sing.  Another guilt trip.  You're right.  I don't think any topic is safe.  The doorbell trick is a good idea.  What happens when she asks days later who was at the door? 

I tried that "training" - and it backfired in that Didi had herself hospitalized, over and over, for makeitupitis!    :stars:

BUT - I refused to visit, at all.  Her hospitalizations did *not* require me to live in Fire Drill Mode.  :yes:

First - who was at the door?

I dunno.  They left by the time I got there.   :ninja:

Or you could say it was stuff from Amazon, and refuse to elaborate, leaving it with stuff you needed.   :ninja:

Didi was the one who drove the conversation along, usually complaining about her health, who wronged her today, how much the neighbors hate her,  how she hates everybody in her miniature club because they're all jealous of her, the latest fight she had with unNPD Ray, and what her poop looked like this time.

Yeah.  Poop.  Like I freakin' CARE.   :aaauuugh: :barfy:

Once, she actually told me to come over and look at it because it looked so strange.  I declined with, "That's just not possible.  If you're concerned, call your doctor."

The woman literally *never* shut the F up!  She was always yapping about something, so I mainly had to sit there and say, "Hmmm."  "Gee."  "That's something."  "That's a shame."  "Oh, you don't say."  "Huh."  - and push back with boundaries when she started demanding I do things, like visit ("I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything"), make her disgusting watermelon rind pickles or bacon (NO, you can't just treat it like placing an order or you get, "I'll see what I can do..." - and what I could do was NOTHING!   :evil2:), look up phone numbers because she didn't know how to use a phone book ("The internet is down"), order things for her on Ebay or Amazon (The internet is down or the site wasn't working), and get her back on track with *calling her DOCTOR* about health problems, because I'm not her personal concierge physician! 

Most of the phone calls ended after only a few minutes, and with her slamming the phone down on me because she wasn't getting a supply.   :roll:

I considered that success, and would only call again on MY schedule - which went from daily, to every other day, to every 3rd day, once a week, once every 10 days, once every 2 weeks, and finally once every 3 weeks, unless she was in the hospital for more than a few days.

Then I'd call when I thought she'd be having a meal, out for testing or watching something on TV.       :evil2:

She asked me what she should do about her many medical problems and I told her to talk to her doctor.  She said she didn't want to *bother* him and only I could answer that question for her.

I told her she was out of luck, because I'm not a doctor - SLAM!  :doh:

She wanted me enmeshed - and I wanted to be free of her, so I had to *force* the issue and tell her absolutely nothing about me, my DH or his travel schedule, our pets, my life - nothing at all.  Not a crumb.  I was just busy with things, the usual, you know.  :ninja:

In retrospect, I wouldn't have done it that way.  I'd have blocked her number and gone NC without all the backing out of the room, slowly stuff.  If she wound up in the hospital?

Too bad.  :yes:

The few times she did let me talk, it was about gardening, the weather, or stupid criminals who basically got themselves caught, like the guy who had the word "jeanous" tattooed on his forehead!   :rofl:

I'd run out of material *very* quickly and it wouldn't take her long to get angry, because she was getting NO engagement from me - and every single call  would devolve into her health, she'd get a boundary about calling her doctor and SLAM!   :blink:

IME, *nothing* we do makes a difference, but we learn to become comfortable with our own discomfort, start getting angry and disgusted, and *detach* - we see these people clearly and it's breathtaking just how self-centered they really are, without an iota of self-awareness!

If I were you, I'd let your mom drive the conversation, and if you've really got nothing to contribute, end the call.  You ARE busy, after all.  Just tell her you've got to get going, you'll talk again "soon."   :ninja:

If she demands to know why you have to hang up, tell her you're very busy and it's really none of her concern.  :yes:

It'll go over like a fart at a wedding, and she'll be pissed - but she's going to be angry no matter what you do, so it's best to just get used to it and *stop caring what she thinks.*  :yes:

:hug:

Oh saying it's UPS or an Amazon order, perfect.   That will work.  I doubt she'll ask what the package was. 

I wish she was rambling on and on.  She's so mad over the decrease in calls, that she's just pouting, being passive aggressive and bringing up issues that happened 20 years ago to mock me, taunt me or put me down.  I get right of the phone, but what were once 20-30 minute calls of me giving her too much info about me are now her 3-5 minutes of her pouting and then being passive aggressive and me getting off the phone.   

This is just hard and stressful.  I feel like I need a  coach telling me what to say when I do talk to them.  Last night it was the guilt trippy phone call from my enD who was very passive aggressive about why I hadn't called lately.  I used the "we've been busy" line, but kept getting interrogated.  I gave in and said that I've called their house a few times over the past few weeks, but no one answered.  I figured that they are just so busy that they don't have time to talk.  I said that they should just call me when they aren't so busy.   What he doesn't know is that I know that she isn't actually answering when I have called.  I know she was actually there.   My uPDm was playing facebook games which send out requests to all of her friends.  I tried calling a few times just after I got the game requests.  She only plays those games at home on her tablet and she didn't answer.  It's her version of punishment.  She's not answering when I call and then telling him that she hasn't "talked to" me in days.  Part of the reason she hasn't "talked to" me is because she was trying to give the silent treatment because she is mad.  She doesn't realize that this game playing is childish and while I might have played along years ago, I honesty don't have the time or patience to deal with her nonsense.  It's like dealing with a 6 year old.  But it's stressful to constantly be second guessing yourself if how you are dealing with the narcissist is making the problem better or worse.  I read the other day that withholding attention from a narcissist is like withholding drugs from an addict.  Eventually they flip out and it just gets worse for you.  Ugh!!

You're absolutely right - it is like withholding drugs from an addict, but we *have* to do it for their own good.

In this case, we're doing it for OUR own good.   8-)

The next time your dad interrogates you about what has you so busy, laugh it off with, "What are you, like, my parole officer!?"  or, "Sorry - that's classified" - and change the subject.

Or, if you dare, you might just come out and say, "Dad, it's none of your business, now stop or I'm hanging up."  :ninja:

If you've got kids, a lot of this is going to be like when they were in their Terrible Twos and how you had to react when they misbehaved.  You didn't reward bad behavior.  You put them in time-outs.  And I'm sure there are other things  that are non-violent and non-abusive, but I don't have kids.

BUT we do have pets, and we had gone through Basic Obedience with our dogs, and I used *that* as my model in that dogs HATE to be ignored, and would prefer to be yelled at than ignored - which is why they sometimes eat  our slippers or shoes, or other items they shouldn't.  They're feeling anxious or *snubbed.*

If the dog eats the shoe, throw the shoe out and ignore the dog except to stare it down until it looks away.  Message received - you're the Top Dog and that was a bad thing.  You'll engage again on your terms, in the not too distant future (like 10 minutes or so).

Your mom wants to play phone games - fine.  Didi did that too, so I'd call LESS.  That's the *consequence* of trying to punish an adult - you call less.  :yes:

She gets snotty or pouty or nasty on the phone, almost immediately?  Fine.  "I'm hanging up now.  Goodbye."  :ninja:

That's it.  Don't warn her, don't put up with it, don't deflect her -  HANG UP.   :yes:

That's the *consequence* of treating you badly - and also, add more time between calls.

At this rate, you'll probably be calling once a month within a few weeks - but she's *doing it to herself by not keeping a civil tongue in her head.*

Another thing you can do is *block* them for a certain amount of time, so they go to your voicemail folder - especially if your father has been nasty and invasive, and your mother has been pouty and nasty.

YOU get to determine when you unblock them - or IF you want to unblock them, because you're enjoying the peace and quiet so much.

And personally, I wouldn't listen to any voicemails that come in when they're blocked, because you *know* what they're going to say.  Just delete them.  You won't miss much.   :)

They have NO control in this relationship  other than to use angry words and treat the phone like an electronic collar and leash - and you have ALL the power.  8-)

You can make it stop, on a temporary or permanent basis, with just the push of a few buttons.  :yes:

That's *power* and they can't stop you.  :sunny:

In child rearing and dog training, we reward *good behavior* - which can work with your mom, too.

If she's *civil* - you listen, but the minute she stops, "I'm  hanging up."  :ninja:

I never got to use that one with Didi, because she'd beat me to the punch when I didn't show any interest in her medical problems. 

I never hung up on her - she always hung up on me, which was her way of "punishing" me and "winning" at the same time.  :roll:

But...the Queen who could never condescend to call started calling OFTEN when I got to the 2.5 week mark between calls - 2 weeks was her "silent treatment period."  It never varied - but I *evolved* and didn't care.

I didn't have an Iphone then, so I'd screen my calls on the answering machine - more often than not, she'd hang up without leaving a message, like I'm just supposed to know who it was by picking it out of the ether.   :stars:

If she did leave a message, I'd call her back at MY leisure - and if she called again before I decided I could stomach it, I'd add even MORE time for annoying the living shit out of me over nothing.

If your parents do call, let it go to voice if you don't feel like dealing with it, and call back ONLY when you feel like you can mentally handle it.   :yes:

If that's never - well, that's on them.   :evil2:

You've GOT this, Sidney!   :cheer: :cheer:

Just let yourself be brave enough - and annoyed enough - to say, "This is ridiculous and I hate it.  I hate being grilled by both of them, I hate how they treat me, and I'm going to make it stop." - BLOCK!

You'll thank yourself later.   :)

:hug:

Quote from: Sidney37 on April 27, 2019, 07:48:00 PM
... But it's stressful to constantly be second guessing yourself if how you are dealing with the narcissist is making the problem better or worse.  I read the other day that withholding attention from a narcissist is like withholding drugs from an addict.  Eventually they flip out and it just gets worse for you.  Ugh!!

I would stick to my boundaries.  You have indicated you are not ready to go No Contact, so keep your boundaries in place.  Continue to repeat the "I've been busy" line ad infinitum.   If your mother won't accept that, too bad.  Yes, she is likely going to escalate from this point.  When she figures out that the Silent Treatment isn't getting her what she wants (100% compliance) she will try another tactic. 

I completely understand your frustration and stress over having your boundaries constantly trampled.  My NM refused to compromise one iota with me-- it was 100% compliance or the highway.  So yep, it was the highway.  After about a year and a half of her disrespecting every boundary I laid down, I was ready for No Contact. 

It sounds from what you've posted she's sending your dad out to try to pump you for information that she knows you won't give her, or to punish you with more PA comments.  He's acting like a flying monkey for her at this point.  I would give him the "I'm busy and gotta go now" line whenever he started in with the PA stuff. 

The only way to keep your mother at bay and stall for time to sort things out is to refuse to give her what she wants-- a hostile reaction from you.  Don't let her see you sweat, so to speak.  Remain calm, no matter what she says, and end the conversation when she starts in with the put-downs and criticism.  Respond, but don't react. 

You are trying to shift the spotlight off your mother and she doesn't like it.  It's like you are engaged in a theatrical performance.  She wants to be the star and she wants you to be the villain.  Only you have resigned that role.  She will have to get someone else.  I think you are doing great!   :yes:

Thanks all.  I guess this is what is expected to happen if I keep up my boundaries.  She's mad and giving me her version of modified silent treatment.  I call every 2-3 days.  Her new behavior us that now she usually makes my father answer the phone.  He talks to me as nice as can be, and she spouts off the occasional snide remark in the background about whatever we were talking about.  If she does answer the phone, she sits in near silence.  I ask her how she is - FINE.  What she's been up to? - NOTHING. What did you do today? - NOTHING.  How was your_____ activity? - FINE.  Who was there? - silence.  Then she huffs and puffs and puts my dad on the phone.  If he isn't there, she sits in complete silence.  I say, "well I guess you don't have anything to say.  I guess we can talk later" and she hangs up without even saying goodbye. 

The question is, do I decrease calls as a natural reaction/consequence to her saying next to nothing when I call? According to my dad, she is mad about the decrease in phone calls and giving me the silent treatment because she saw on social media that my child was wearing a brace after a minor sports injury, and I didn't call her before a photo of her wearing the brace was posted to tell her about it.  I now have them blocked for future posts, but my child doesn't want to, so this furry over us not calling to tell them what we post before we post it will continue.  It has been made clear in the past that nothing should be posted without telling her first because she doesn't check social media every day.  She does not want to be told that anyone at my home has done anything by someone other than me.  It embarrasses her that a mutual acquaintance knows something about me before she knows it.  Do I need to block every mutual acquaintance we have?  If I block her and not her friends, then they tell her that they saw something that she was blocked from seeing, it will cause WW3! 

It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation. Calling makes for more discomfort. And her expectations about social media mean you'd never post a thing without running it past her first. All in all, sounds like she's used to wielding the control.

Yes, I'd *definitely* lower contact to once a week, and if she keeps playing at her Snotty Act, I'd lower calling to once every 10 days, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month - 2 months - you see where this is headed, right?

I'll never understand why they don't see the connection between being nasty and us not wanting to talk to them.   :stars: :doh:

And I'd *definitely* block her on FB - and anybody who can act as a Flying Messenger Monkey in giving her information about you and yours.   :yes:

I think Openskyblue has it only partially right - yes, this is about her CONTROL, but also how *close* you appear to be - not that you are, but how it looks to others.   :blink:

You'd tell a loving grandma, and that grandma would probably call the child, send a get well card, maybe even visit and bring the child a small gift.

To your mom, this is all about *appearance* because she *doesn't actually care.*  She has to look like she cares, so that means being super-nosy and invasive, all but jamming an electron microscope up your butt to get information *lest she seem uninvolved* - which she really IS.   :roll:

I have to admit, this bothers me:

...but my child doesn't want to... (in regard to blocking your mom on FB)

YOU are the *parent.*  Your child doesn't get a say in this because you're *protecting that child.*  Children don't get to choose how parents protect them from hostile or negative influences  that can disrupt  or make their lives unpleasant.  With luck, they don't even know the things parents do behind the scenes to keep them safe and happy.   :yes:

So you don't *discuss* blocking grandma, you just *block her* and don't tell your child.   :thumbup:

If your child figures it out and says something, I'd reply, "Please trust my judgment.  I love you and I'm protecting you."

If your child asks *from grandma!?!?!?* - yes.  Because sometimes she's not a very nice person, and right now, she's very angry with me.   I don't want to upset her with photos.   :ninja:

Or any other age-appropriate explanation that gets your point across.   :yes:

The boundaries don't apply just to your mom - but to your kids as well, which was why I mentioned the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend.

Your child having an opinion about broccoli and not wanting to eat it?  That's one thing.

Your child having say in who you block on social media - that's an entirely different thing, and the book will help you see the difference.   :)

:hug:

I agree with WI-- lower contact.

Also, I would let your mother be the one to call you next time.  Wait it out, even if she doesn't call for several weeks.  It sounds like she is trying to put the burden on you to make polite conversation, since you are the one who called.  I wouldn't put up with this PA horse manure.  She's trying to get you to ask her "What's wrong mother?"  or "Did I do something to offend you, mother?"  I see her just waiting to pounce like a cat on a mouse.  Don't give her the satisfaction.  One thing you might do is not ask her how she is.  Don't ask her any questions that she can counter with silence.  Let her call you.  Then the burden of "polite conversation" is on her.  If you feel you must call her, talk on endlessly about something meaningless.  Don't let it seem like it's bothering you that she's not responding.  Then end the call  with "Gotta go now.  Very busy."  And hang up.  You've done your bit, and she can call you the next time.  It's easy to get into the mindset that you have to be the one to initiate the phone calls.  No, you don't.  Normal relationships are give and take.  We know this isn't a "normal" relationship, but I wouldn't get caught up in doing all the calling and I wouldn't handle her with kid gloves.  That's walking on eggshells.  Another book you might consider reading is Randi Kreger's Stop Walking on Eggshells.

And just let her be mad.  That's her choice.  She doesn't get to control when and even if you call her.  That's your call. 

It's also your call what you tell her about your life and your family's lives.   It seems from what you've posted that your mother has an enormous sense of entitlement here.  [Btw, this is a hallmark characteristic of narcissism, a sense of entitlement.]  Your mother feels it's her right to know everything about you and your family.  Well, no.  You are an adult and have the right to privacy.  So keep limiting the information you share with her and lob that ball back into her court regarding the phone calls.  Let her call you next time.   :yes:

Quote from: openskyblue on April 30, 2019, 10:32:34 PM
It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation.

Exactly.  If I stop calling or reduce the frequency, she tells everyone (flying monkeys) that I'm not talking to her.  If I call, I get snippy 2 word answers.  I can't even talk to my dad, because he's now calling on speaker phone with her in the background trying desperately to get her to  talk to me.  I was in my car, on the way to get gas because it was low.  I made some comment about hoping the station was close so I don't run out and she loudly made a snide remark about me not being able to read the gas gauge in my car.  That was the extent of her communication with me when he called me.  Why would I want to talk to her with snide remarks and 2 word answers?  If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on April 30, 2019, 11:34:01 PM
I think Openskyblue has it only partially right - yes, this is about her CONTROL, but also how *close* you appear to be - not that you are, but how it looks to others.   :blink:

You'd tell a loving grandma, and that grandma would probably call the child, send a get well card, maybe even visit and bring the child a small gift.

To your mom, this is all about *appearance* because she *doesn't actually care.*  She has to look like she cares, so that means being super-nosy and invasive, all but jamming an electron microscope up your butt to get information *lest she seem uninvolved* - which she really IS.   :roll:

I didn't think about it that way but it's true.  During the couple of true medical emergencies I've had in my life, she refuses to help.  She insists that my father or MIL come to help.  She's just too busy with work, it getting her hair cut or a church event.  When she can swoop in, tell all of her friends that she came to "get Sidney organized" because I'm a  "mess", and then sit on my couch for a week bossing us around, she'll help.  She never asked my DD how her injury was... still hasn't!  She acts like the doting mother and grandmother, but she isn't.  She wants to be seen that way and is mortified if she isn't!

You wrote:

If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

I'd deflect all flying messenger monkeys with, "I don't know where she got that idea - I've just been busy, that's all.   And the phone does work both ways.  She can call me anytime.  Thanks for your concern - but there's nothing to be concerned about.  Goodbye."   :ninja:

If they get too persistent or too in your business, block them without explanation.  Then you won't have to deal with it.  :thumbup:

Yes, you might wind up blocking quite a few members of your FOO, but if they're drinking her kool-aid, do you really thing they have your best interests at heart?

But the first thing I'd do, very soon, is block her, your father and all FMM's from your Facebook.   :yes:

I like what Illogical said - let her call you, even if you have to wait it out a few weeks, or longer.  She can spin all the lies she wants, you can deflect then block FMMs, she can keep wailing to them, they'll get your VM, she'll wail some more - and the smart ones are going to figure out, "Hey...if THAT'S how she talks to Sidney, no wonder she doesn't call!"   :doh:

The ones that still believe her will probably leave more VMs in your blocked folder, that you can delete without listening to, since you know what they're going to say.   :roll:

So...a month goes by and she doesn't call.  Good.  She's probably giving your her version of the Silent Treat, which really IS a treat when you're not being verbally abused and harassed!   8-)

Two months go by - I'd consider blocking her number and giving yourself perpetual peace.   Encourage your DH to block her, too - and block her on your kids' cell phones, as well (if they have them, that is).

Or don't block her and wait her out.  Let's see how long she wants to play these stupid games, where you must call Her Majesty.   :dramaqueen:

But...it blew up in my face.  Just so you know.   :aaauuugh:

Once I started limiting calls with unBPD Didi, she started calling here and at that time, we had a land line with *no* caller ID, and an answering machine.  Sometimes she'd leave messages, but most times she wouldn't, and would expect me to just *know* that hang-up was her.   :stars:

Most of the time, if she *did* leave a message, I'd wait several days before returning the call - and always at a time I knew wouldn't be good for her (meals, favorite TV show, outside gardening).  I'd leave a message and consider it mission accomplished - and if she returned my call, I'd wait until *I* felt comfortable calling back - usually several days later.   :yes:

But she called here TOO often - and mostly over nothing, and I *dreaded* calling her back.  In retrospect, I wish I'd been brave enough to just invest in a cell phone and block her, then and there.

Back then, I was a little scared of all her plotting and scheming and figured I had to be in the loop, even if it was on the periphery - I realize now there was NO plot or scheme that needed my involvement or attention.   :sunny:

If she does take Didi's tactic of calling pretty much nonstop, you're going to have to decide what *limits* to put on returning calls.  Once a week?  Once every two weeks?  Never?  Block her?   :Idunno:

You know she's not going to be able to keep up any attempts at a Nice Act for very long, and will probably revert to the Snotty Act, where she calls you to bark one or two word answers at you, until you tell her you can't talk when she's that upset - goodbye.   :ninja:

BTW - Didi was the same way during *any* emergency.  She just couldn't be arsed, but would TELL everybody HOW CONCERNED she was for me or us.   :violin:

DH had retinal reattachment surgery to both eyes in '94.  We were both pretty scared - Didi told me I was making a mountain out of a molehill and *healthy young men don't go blind, ever* - and she ordered me to stop talking about it, because I was ruining her upcoming trip!   :blink:

Yeah!  That's my support system, going to a convention instead of helping or offering help!   >:(

I'm sure everybody at that convention heard how worried she was, but saw evidence to the contrary - her whooping it up and having fun, without talking to me *at all* - which was probably downplayed with me being so DRAMATIC about everything that she had to take a break from talking to me, which is the furthest thing from the truth!   :roll:

Yes, they must *appear* to be perfect and *appear* to be loving and concerned as long as they don't actually have to DO anything but sit there and order us around!  That's called "helping" us - when it's anything but!   :roll:   :no:

That's why I think blocking her, your dad and all FMM's on FB is a good idea - she won't see information she can *use* to appear to be "perfect" and concerned or caring.

That's why she drills you so much on the phone - and lord only knows who she blabs your personal business too, while making herself look like a saint (who did NOTHING and didn't even CARE), and you look foolish and immature, constantly needing mommy's help.

So yes - you're playing hardball.  I had to do the same thing with Didi and *pry* her many tentacles off my life - but it was *worth it.*   :yes:

It really is.  It may not seem like it, right now, but it IS - and when she does eventually up her game (you know a medical emergency is probably in the making) - you can react accordingly by saying, "Gosh.  That's something.  Well, you're in good hands - I'll let you rest."   :ninja:

That's if you haven't blocked her first, and she doesn't realize her VMs aren't being listened to.   :evil2:

Just because she has some sort of medical "emergency" requires NO action on your part - always remember that.  The *doctors* have this - and you'll only be her lightning rod of hate, so you're better off staying OUT of it completely.   :yes:

I know that sounds heartless - but it's not.  I'm thinking of YOU.  Your mother isn't and will only use an "emergency"  to shame and belittle you.

If she's done it before, there's a good chance she'll do it again - which is another reason I think you should take Illogical's idea of not calling her to heart - you'll probably find out soon enough what she's got up her sleeve, *but you don't have to actually DO anything.*   8-)

Not even visiting.  You're *busy.*  If you think of it, maybe send a card - but I probably wouldn't, because it will only encourage her.

I'll leave you with the words of Tyrion Lannister:  "You're in the great game now, and it's terrifying."

But you are *never alone.*  Your *tribe* has your back, every step of the way and wants you to succeed in claiming your life back!   :waveline:  <-- I'm the 2nd one from the left.   :bigwink:

:hug:

I have a follow up question to all of this.  Can someone explain to me the difference between JADEing and clearly stating boundaries?  I cut back contact without telling her that I was cutting back contact and why.  I am reading books recommended here and elsewhere about boundaries and several have said that I need to clearly state my boundaries.  Should I have said weeks ago that I am no longer going to call daily and why I'm not calling daily?  I didn't do that because it felt like JADEing.  The examples I am reading in books about clearly stating boundaries sound like JADEing to me.  I'm confused about the difference.  The natural consequence to her short and snide 2 word answers when I have called in the past few weeks and her loudly mocking me in the background when I am talking to my father and she is there is that I am calling less, but I am wondering if I should have said some version of "If you are going to respond to my questions with short 2 word answers, I'm not going to talk to you every day"?  Is there a book or article that describes the difference between JADEing and stating boundaries?

Great questions!

Personally, I never stated boundaries to my NM.  Boundaries are for you, not your mother.  In other words, you erect boundaries because you want to protect yourself from abuse.  If you clearly state your boundaries, your mother is very likely to not acknowledge them.  She may not acknowledge them anyway-- even if you don't state them--  but at least you know you have set limits to protect yourself.

Very often when you "tell the truth" to a narcissist/BPD person, they won't accept your truth.  So say you told your mother you weren't going to call and why.  She would likely go to great lengths to counter your behavior with totally illogical tactics, like "you weren't contacting her because you had a problem" (gaslighting) or "she just didn't understand how you could be so mean" (waif victimization) etc., etc., etc.,

So, no.  Don't tell her your boundaries.  Let your actions speak.  This is the key, IMHO.  You have to let your actions speak to the situation.  Trying to talk and talk ends up JADEing and in circular conversations and you are on the hamster wheel to nowhere.

So set your boundary for YOU.  If you don't want to talk to your NM except every week or so, then do it.  No explanation.  No reason.  You don't owe her any reason.  You are an adult that can choose to engage or not, choose to engage on a daily or weekly or monthly basis.  The choice is yours.

So set that boundary and determine the consequence for what happens if your NM doesn't respect that boundary.  Consequences for not respecting frequently include less engagement.  There is no reason to tell your mother what you are doing.  With a "normal" individual, you might do that, but you aren't dealing with "normal" here.

Go your own way and do your own thing.  Even after you SHOW your mother with your actions that you will not be bullied or coerced into compliance, she may very well trample your boundary or boundaries and then you are faced with a decision-- are you going to continue to "do battle" with setting boundaries and enforcing them or are you going to go NC?  That is something you have to decide.

I can tell you, though, that your mother is very unlikely to change her behavior.  She wants you back "dancing the dysfunctional dance" and anything short of 100% compliance will be met with resistance.  I would stick very close to my boundaries and not give her any explanation as to why I set them.  That's your business.  You owe her no explanation as to why you are refusing to engage.  Others may differ, but that is my take.   :yes:

I second Illogical's ever-logical post!   :applause: :thumbup:

The boundaries are for YOU.  You get to decide how much you'll take, and what you will and won't put up with.  You tell *yourself*  you're not calling every day, and if she's nasty, snippy, snide, or making rude or sarcastic comments in the background of a call on speaker, you will *end the call* - and you do NOT have to give an explanation.  Just, "I gotta go."

Or even, "I can tell you're upset about something, so I'll let you go."   :ninja:

Then you can determine the *boundary* of when you're going to call again, by saying to yourself, "Well, she acted like a jerk, she gave two-word  answers, and she's not behaving in a manner that would make *anybody* want to talk to her, so I'm not calling for 5 days.  If she does it again, 10 days."

You are making the rules for YOU.   8-)

The only times you *tell* a boundary are, "I'm hanging up" and, "I'm leaving" and even that isn't set in stone.   :)

You never, EVER give her a list of boundaries, because you want to avoid World War III.  She'll sneer, scoff, and may even roar, "I am the mother and you do NOT tell me what to do!"   :pissed:

And she doesn't even need a list because your boundaries are the simple rules we follow with others - and others expect from us - in a polite, respectful society, such as not talking over the top of another person, not barking orders or making demands, not talking down about others or the person we're with, not constantly complaining in a TMI way, and overall, just trying to be a decent person.  :yes:

If you were to  say to your mom, "I don't want you to insult me..." - or hand her a list with that boundary on it, the only thing she's going to do is make sure to insult you even *more* because *you can't tell her what to do.*   :roll:

I didn't have a list of boundaries written down, but I knew:

1.  Medium Chill, all the way.   :ninja:

2.  NO information for unNPD Didi, in any way, shape or form.

3.  No JADE on why I haven't called.  I was busy -and I AM busy!

4.  Complaints are kicked up to the person who can handle them - like her doctor.

5.  NO getting involved in her petty dramas.  (Medium Chill and an abrupt subject change.)

6.  NO taking her to the ER or hospital - she can call an *ambulance.*

7.  Screaming, crying or being insulting on the phone make me HANG UP.

8.  Suicide threats - real or fauxicide - are met with me hanging up and calling 911.  (Actually, that was the ONE time I gave her a warning and told her if she EVER did it again, she'd be explaining it to the paramedics - and that was the last time she did it.)

9.  NO in-person visits.  That ship has sailed.

10.  Bad behavior - waifing,  acting like a Queen, ordering me to do things, or guilting me about not calling or visiting, generally just acting like a miseryguts, trying to treat me as a doctor instead of calling her own and *slamming the phone down in my ear* (one of those suckers from the 70's, so it was loud   >:() - ADDS TIME ON BETWEEN CALLS.  NO EXCEPTIONS.   :yes:

Say it's Monday and I wasn't going to call until next Monday because I was trying to wean her off calls, BUT in this call, she not only got really snotty, implied I should be her maid, tried to get me to be her doctor and slammed the phone down when I told her I couldn't help her; she'd have to call her doctor instead.

That call next Monday wouldn't come - I'd make it on Thursday, instead, and adjust my "wean down" table from there.

I got to calling her once every three weeks very quickly - and was about to pull the trigger on NC if her latest "medical emergency" turned out to be fake.  It wasn't and she died - so you could say she's now giving me the *permanent* Silent Treat - and I'm very happy with it.   8-)

The ONLY excuse I ever gave her about why I didn't call or visit  was being BUSY.

And you ARE busy - right now, you're busy reading this post.  That's BUSY!   :yes:

"Busy" can be you, soaking in a nice bubble bath, with lovely glass of  red, listening to an audiobook.  That's BUSY!   :)

Busy can be you, not doing a damned thing except enjoying being alive.   8-)

We don't actually have to be doing things to be BUSY.  We're not human doings - we're human *beings.*

That was the thing I had the hardest time wrapping my head around, which is why I mention  it - you are NOT LYING when you say you're busy.   :thumbup:

When questioned about busy with WHAT, I stuck to, "Oh, you know...never a dull moment around here..." or, "Oh,  you know, more of the usual..." - and that's all I'd tell Didi.

Illogical is right - none of this is going to change her behavior, but it will change your *perception* of her behavior, to the point you're thinking, "Why do I bother talking to her at all?  She's a selfish, self-centered drama-queen who is determined to CONTROL me - and I deserve better.  My family deserves better.  I think I'm better off blocking her number than letting her continue to inflict damage on me and mine."

Believe it or not, that's a very *healthy* way of thinking.   :sunny:

:hug:

Going from daily contact and zero boundaries is a process and is a very individual process but there are some commonalities covered so far. Here were some of my experiences that may help and relate to your journey at this point.

My experience with boundaries were that they were best decided ahead of time but spoken in the moment as needed via medium chill. Working through some exercises to tie my boundaries to my core beliefs helped prepare me to handle a variety of boundary busting attempts from PD and others in my life. Boundaries of all types became automated and quick responses because they were tied to a few basic core beliefs.

.......
My experience for acceptable topics of conversation was that people, whether they know them or not, opened up a whole can of worms and that seems to be what you were experiencing as well.

Also asking them any personal question at all open the can of worms where they were then free to ask me personal questions. So it was best to stick with vague "how are you" or "what's new with you both" and only ask follow-up questions on what they chose to share because that is how I wanted questions asked of me. So ultimately I didn't share anything that I wouldn't want follow up questions posed.

Safe topics where related to gardening or things I read on common topics, places, etc. Yes I actually prepared for conversation. Now I just have a few things in my back pocket for everyone.

.....
Here's my experience for what it's worth. A little backstory... My contact was daily, yes daily lunch and shopping. There were two days we didn't go to lunch and shopping but saw each other at community events. Boundaries? I didn't even know they existed or that I had a right to them or what they were or anything at all. In the Working On Us board I devoured the sticky topic on boundaries and did a ton of other research which I included in that thread. There's also some notes in these two threads:

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=29251.0

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=28162.0


Looking back those were some pivotal points, deciding what I wanted this parental / adult relationship to look like.

The process of getting there is very much like dealing with a toddler because that's where a PD often is at emotionally. However the process of getting there for me hinged on maintaining adult to adult interaction. The theory of transactional analysis helped because a PD is often trying to keep themselves in either parent or child mode while pushing you into the other and it flip flops back and forth. so it was important for me to maintain adult to adult interaction and refuse to acknowledge uPDm child or parent and refused to allow her to push me into one of those roles. Check out the theory of transactional analysis for more information. You don't need to know it in-depth just a basic understanding that human beings have three basic modes of operation or "voices"  and its best to stay adult-to-adult interaction.

The other thing I needed to develop was not caring, truly the child inside needed to not care whether or not mommy / daddy approved or disapproved of my choices or actions. That required me to fully adult from within and that took time and patience.

It was scary and yes every time I didn't comply I was punished much the same as you described here with the game I'm not answering the phone or being too busy to talk to me in a "see you know how it feels now" sort of baby child game. Except it backfired and I started to really not care and actually be relieved.

Here's what it comes down to oftentimes with PD - it's all one giant Hoover (see the top 100 traits) to get you to comply 100% with their wishes because if you can't comply 100% they'd rather have nothing at all. It's not about love or any level of love it's about control and the need for 100% control or else zero. Most times there's no in between it's their way or they'd rather have nothing at all which is not logical and baffling to those of us traveling this journey. And quite honestly it sort of hurts that we're not good enough, we're not loved, if we're not a hundred percent compliant. Most times we're not loved as a human being but as a human doing which is really sad because if we don't do what they want we're tossed aside. I had to make peace with that and no it still hurts because I am in contact but I'm at peace with it just the same. I feel the sad and move past it.

Hopefully you find some of this helpful!  You're doing great!

Thank you WI, Illogical and Spring Butterfly,

While I've been heading back in and Out of the FOG over the years, I think it was a lack of true understanding of boundaries that really was causing me issues.  Thank you all for explaining and clarifying for me.  Those three responses really helped a lot.   I read the Boundaries book by Cloud this week and that helped as well.  I'm going to read it again to make sure I better understand the difference between clearly stated boundaries and unspoken ones if he covers that.  I also just bought both books that Spring Butterfly recommended for my kindle.  Thank you for those recommendations.  I was amused by one thing in Cloud's book.  At the beginning and end there is an example of how a day is for a woman with and without boundaries.  I laughed at the end when she set a boundary with her mother, the mother wasn't happy and then the woman thought to herself that her mother would be fine by tomorrow!  Lol.  Don't we all wish we could set a boundary and they would be fine by tomorrow?  ::)  I would have liked to have read some more examples that were similar to our mothers and how he would respond.  I think he'd probably say to go NC.

Clearly I didn't understand boundaries and really had next to none.  I knew the daily calls weren't OK, but it was easier that dealing with her passive aggressive behavior.   I knew how to do NC and not talk to her entirely, but it caused me severe amounts of stress from the second guessing about how my NC was different than her silent treatment and how upset it made my father, but like everyone I'm now seeing that there are reasons he stuck with this for 50 years.  He has traits, too. 

I understood clearly stated boundaries, but it make me stressed to state them.  Several years ago we clearly stated a few boundaries for her visits.  She could only stay a certain number of days because beyond that her anxiety was through the roof.  She couldn't threaten to leave days early because someone made her mad.  If she did threaten to leave we would not be taking her to the train station or airport.  We had a few others.  She did fine for a while and accepted the boundaries.  I understood that those were clearly stated boundaries and there were consequences to violating them.

The unspoken boundaries were what clearly confused me.  Your three answers helped me to better understand the unspoken boundaries.  They are just normal boundaries that other people have that never need to be spoken.  It's like they are boundaries of social norms.  Other people understand social norms and what is appropriate and what isn't.  It's like PDs just ignore and walk all over them knowing that we are either so stunned or socially appropriate ourselves that we won't call them on it. 

I also see that I shouldn't ask her detailed questions if I don't want to answer those questions myself.  That's hard.  I frankly have nothing left to talk to her about for more than just a few minutes.  Yesterday she talked about a church activity and I asked some follow up questions.  I told her about a situation that happened at a local school here that made the news.  She started to criticize it because she could tell my view on it was different than hers.  I changed the subject.  It was dull, boring and with lots of silent pauses because I didn't want to give her any personal information or ask her for any.   So then she did it.  Totally unrelated to what we were talking about, she asked a very direct, very personal and  very intrusive question about how something worked out with one of my kids.  My answer was "fine".  She was upset and mad that she didn't get more information.  I got a "What do you mean, fine? You haven't told me about (how that thing was going) for a month.  You aren't going to tell me?  Well I'll never ask you anything again.  You just won't tell me anything anymore.  I don't know why I ask you anything".  Then the whimpering started.  I told her that I had to go and hung up.  That boundary I could see.  I didn't need to tell her that the question was inappropriate because she would have argued that I've told her before, that it wasn't inappropriate, etc.  In the past, I would have answered the question because 1. It seemed like the polite thing to do and 2. She would react the way that she did if I didn't.   But now that I am thinking about boundaries, it stunned me how intrusive and inappropriate the question was. 

Quote from: Spring Butterfly on May 05, 2019, 06:39:02 AM
The process of getting there is very much like dealing with a toddler because that's where a PD often is at emotionally. However the process of getting there for me hinged on maintaining adult to adult interaction. The theory of transactional analysis helped because a PD is often trying to keep themselves in either parent or child mode while pushing you into the other and it flip flops back and forth. so it was important for me to maintain adult to adult interaction and refuse to acknowledge uPDm child or parent and refused to allow her to push me into one of those roles. Check out the theory of transactional analysis for more information. You don't need to know it in-depth just a basic understanding that human beings have three basic modes of operation or "voices"  and its best to stay adult-to-adult interaction.

This is very helpful - adult to adult interaction.  That's what I'm not getting from her unless we are talking about very basic day to day activities - she went to the store, she went to church, she went to her exercise class.  If we talk about me or my kids, I am treated like a child.  If we talk about the news, she wants my opinion on it and I am treated like a child because I am wrong.  If we talk about her health, her house, her money, her car, etc. - I am supposed to act like the parent, tell her what to do and then be blamed when it doesn't go her way.  Most things I am treated like a child.  Adult to adult interaction is what I am looking for, but I will never get it from her.  I know adults who I knew when I was a child.  They now treat me like an adult.  My parents don't.  This is key and  also why I am realizing that my father is more than just an enabler.  He has issues, too.  He has difficulty treating me like an adult as well.

Thank you all for helping through these realizations.  I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on.  I really do appreciate it.  I'm making progress!

Wow good job on that boundary!! Yes very little to talk about really and the snipes about not asking anything anymore, yep heard them too.

Adult to adult, no not going to actually get it but by maintaining your adult stance, digging in and sticking to it, and talking to them as an adult and by you refuse any other role it just feels so much better for me. I used to think of Mary from Downton Abbey and just try to be unflappable like that with a flip "well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it I suppose" and change the subject in a dismissive sort of way.

You got this and are on such a good path.

Sidney37, I haven't read through the whole thread so hopefully am not repeating.

Some boundaries MUST be stated, such as "I expect you to call me in advance rather than showing up at my doorstep without notice."
And some don't need to be. For me, I wouldn't state your type of boundary since it would simply be vociferously argued with and it would escalate the conflict. So you may think but do not need to say "If M wants to give terse unfriendly answers and not initiate phone conversations, then I will let her have her space and back away on the phone calls." No need to state it out loud.

Good luck!

Quote from: Sidney37 on May 01, 2019, 01:24:34 PM

Quote from: openskyblue on April 30, 2019, 10:32:34 PM
It really sounds like a damned if you do/do not situation.

Exactly.  If I stop calling or reduce the frequency, she tells everyone (flying monkeys) that I'm not talking to her.  If I call, I get snippy 2 word answers.  I can't even talk to my dad, because he's now calling on speaker phone with her in the background trying desperately to get her to  talk to me.  I was in my car, on the way to get gas because it was low.  I made some comment about hoping the station was close so I don't run out and she loudly made a snide remark about me not being able to read the gas gauge in my car.  That was the extent of her communication with me when he called me.  Why would I want to talk to her with snide remarks and 2 word answers?  If I don't she'll tell all the extended relative I'm not speaking to her and all of the monkeys will start flying.

For me, and I believe for many of us here, learning to stop caring what "everyone thinks" and "what our PD is telling everyone" is a huge step Out of the FOG. They will say what they want, and others will believe what they believe. We limit the joy and peace in our lives if we let that determine our behavior. We get stuck in toxic, non-reciprocal, painful, hostile interactions just to not look bad. But you know what? Quite often we're already being smeared. We're making choices that are bad for us and our families to avoid being smeared, and we're often already being smeared.

Your M seems to be having an extended adult tantrum. Personally, I find adult tantrums too embarrassing to watch and so turn away. She isn't owed an explanation. Your F isn't owed an explanation. Your children can get an age-appropriate explanation. And it's not the extended family's business. If they push, it's fair to say "This is between me and my M. Now, how about that rain due tomorrow afternoon?"

You did a FANTASTIC job with your boundary!   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

And A4P is right - sometimes we do have to state boundaries, like when somebody invites themselves for an extended stay at our house, or even just an afternoon, and you don't want them there, or they *summon* you to theirs, and you don't want to go.

That doesn't work for me. 

I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good.

I can't - I'm swamped.

I'll check with DH and get back to you.  (and then you just DON'T!)  :ninja:

I can't - I'm really busy.

And I agree -  not caring what "everybody thinks", "everybody says" and "everybody knows" is *extremely important* because that's just what your mom *says* about the ever-important Court of Public Opinion - but it doesn't mean it's *true.*

A4P  wrote:

And it's not the extended family's business. If they push, it's fair to say "This is between me and my M. Now, how about that rain due tomorrow afternoon?"

Absolutely spot-on, or, "Mom says I'm not talking to her?  Gosh, I wonder how she got that idea - I've just been busy, that's all.  I'll call her when I can."

And when that "can" is, is up to you.  :yes:

You can add time-on between calls for Flying Messenger Monkey involvement.   Think of it like a penalty in a sports game.   :)

Or you can say, "That's weird - I just talked to her a few days ago.  I'm starting to think she needs to see her doctor about having her memory checked."

This does a couple of things - first, it's TRUE because PDs get worse as they age, and second, lets the third party know that all is not as it appears.  They might not be so involved, if there's a next time.   8-)

Or you can just save yourself the headache and block anybody who acts as an FMM.  :ninja:

A4P wrote:

Your M seems to be having an extended adult tantrum. Personally, I find adult tantrums too embarrassing to watch and so turn away.

Again, I agree  - and it's only going to keep getting *worse* if you keep engaging.   :aaauuugh:

UnBPD  Didi, denied that Daily Dutiful Daughter phone call, and only getting Medium Chill when I did call, went Full Metal Waif in having herself hospitalized for Makeitupitis, over and over and over and over again  - so many times that I'm actually not sure.   :stars:

Always for her made-up or minor problems and never for the REAL problems she actually had, but chose to *ignore* - hoping they'd go away, because it would mean acknowledging culpability - chain-smoking, eating take-out or junk food for nearly every meal, and ignoring medical advice, orders or tests under the guise of, "I just CAN'T..." - and never really providing a *reason.*   :roll:

That didn't work on me, either.  In fact, it made me stressed-out and *angry* that she was putting so much freaking effort into getting me over there so she could alternately rip me to pieces with insults, be her attack dog and *expect me to know more than people who actually graduated from medical school.*  :blink:

The effort she put into being a Waif was *astonishing.*

But I stayed out of it, wanting no part in her temper tantrum or her desired outcome of a hospital bed in our living room, while she slowly drove DH, me and our pets insane.

It became a battle of wills - I kept lowering contact and refusing to get involved, and she was determined to WIN, at all costs - what she "won" was Hospice and strangers caring for her, when all it would have taken to have regular contact  and a decent relationship was her acknowledging she had a problem and accepting help from a T.

If she'd been willing to get help, I'd have been willing to meet her halfway, but she was so rigid in her thinking that the world owed her something, she was a special snowflake, nobody was going to tell HER what to do and *she did not have a problem - it's the rest of us that are the problem* - well, she shot herself in the foot.

But that was *her choice* - just like it's  your mom's choice to act like a civilized human being or not.

If she chooses not to and rages, tantrums and continues to treat you badly, it's your RIGHT to continue lowering contact - or bow out of the picture completely and become Sir Not Appearing In This Film.  :sunny:

:hug:

Thanks again everyone.  My stress is decreasing by communicating less.  Her behaviors are becoming more and more predictable, so that helps decrease stress, too.  I know what to expect.  Not knowing how she'll react to decreased contact was adding to my stress. 

I made a call to her yesterday because I saw something on the news that would affect her that she probably would have missed.  It was an excuse to call to see if she would admit that she sent a flying monkey my way.  Once I passed along the information she started asking intrusive questions about my family and I responded with the "we've been busy" and "fine" and the other answers you've all suggested.  She started weeping about how I never tell her anything anymore, how she's so isolated there in her house because of what I am doing to her, how she doesn't know anything that is going on with me and she feels like she's stuck in a hole with no information.  :stars:  It was so telling.  She is out at church and community activities probably 4 hours a day 5-6 days a week , but all she cares about is getting detailed information about us for her supply and to gossip to those people at those activities.  She hates when they ask and she doesn't have an answer.  Of course, she has yet to ask how my child's injury is.  The fact that someone knew before she did about the injury started much of her anger to begin with.  She doesn't really care. 

She then went on to nearly admit that she sent a flying monkey my way to find out what my summer vacation plans were since there's been no more talk of the vacation I was supposed to take with my uPDm and enD.  I didn't tell them it was off, but stopped mentioning the planning of it after her visit a month ago.  She won't directly ask me about it or even mention it, so she has a relative that I talk to once or twice a year do it instead.  ::)  It was obvious to me that it was a flying monkey attempt, but she thinks that she's so clever and secretive.   :doh:

And then she gave me the  gloating "because you haven't called me I didn't tell you..." line that she loves to use.  Usually it's a death in the family, but this time she's taking a vacation and didn't tell me! :stars:  She seemed to think this was some terrible thing that she did by not telling me that she was leaving tomorrow for a vacation.  I really didn't care.  I responded with a "that's nice" and asked where she was going.  She seemed stunned that I didn't react the way that she would - with total furor that I was keeping something from her that she felt she had a right to know. 

The good news is that she'll be gone for over a week, so I will feel no guilt at all about not calling.  And I don't know exactly when she's getting back so I'll just wait for her to call me.  Hopefully that will be weeks!

Quote from: Sidney37 on May 08, 2019, 07:02:52 AM
I made a call to her yesterday because I saw something on the news that would affect her that she probably would have missed.  It was an excuse to call to see if she would admit that she sent a flying monkey my way. 

To go back to your original question -- medium chill - did I do this right? -- I have to say the answer is no. It sounds like you are finding excuses (the news) to try to get answers from her about her behavior (engaging flying monkeys). From my experience, this will only get you more abuse, upset, and circular arguments, which seems what happened in your  most recent conversation.

It doesn't sound like you are ready to disengage from you mother.

Sidney37, this dynamic is what I think of as "weaponizing information." It's pretty common that when we start having boundaries around our communication, or when we're trying to balance it out by calling less or sharing less, the other reacts by withdrawing all information and communication. It can really be quite a rollercoaster for a while.

Personally, I think it's helpful for our sanity and kind for theirs if we become really steady, predictable and reliable. In other words, we decide what we WILL share and we always share it (medical emergencies, kids' sports schedules, or whatever it is that you want to share) and we decide what we WON'T share and we don't ever share it (personal info, our inner hearts, etc.).

It makes us predictable and reliable to someone who is already struggling with relationships. And it helps us keep "in our own lane" and not have to overthink every interaction. Things simply fit into 1 box or the other. It feels anxiety producing, awkward and "wrong" at first, but eventually we settle into the new pattern and it becomes normal. Like truly normal. Like what most healthy people have probably been doing all along :)

You're doing great!

I think you're doing really well, and yes, I understand that "fishing expedition" you went on, trying to see if she'd own up to something you knew she did.

I used to run "litmus tests" from time to time to be *sure* I wasn't the crazy one.  I also would do it to see how badly Didi or Ray would lie, to save face, or manipulate the situation back to their favor.   Sometimes I'd post about it here, and would never cease to be amazed at how much they sounded just like other PD parents.   :roll:

Yes - you're used to her predictable reactions.  That's good and helps you move forward - you've stopped being afraid and are thinking, "Yup.  Typical."   :thumbup:

They really don't know what to do when we don't react in our usual ways, do they?  The first time unBPD Didi started droning on about a health problem, and I managed to get a word in and say, "That's a shame.  Did you call your doctor?" - she actually *gasped* into the phone, like she'd been struck.  :dramaqueen:

She said no, she didn't want to BOTHER him, so I said, "You're not bothering him - you're paying him, and you should give him a call and tell him what's going on."   :ninja:

She couldn't get off the phone fast enough.  I really don't think she could handle that I wasn't taking up my usual "fixer" mantle and trying to figure out a way to make her feel better.   :violin:

Since your mom is going to be on vacation (lucky you!  :yahoo: ) for a week, I'd wait several days before calling her, when she returns, to give her time to unpack and get settled again. 

Or maybe you should wait until she calls you.  It's up to you - you know her best.   :yes:

In either case, if she demands to know  WHY it's taken this long to speak to  you, *keep it simple* - you were waiting for her to get settled in, and you've been busy, that's all.   :ninja:

With the usual.  You know - never a dull moment around here.    :bigwink:

I don't think I'd ask if she had a nice time - I don't think I'd bring it up at all, because you know she's probably going to say she had a TERRIBLE time and try to blame you for it, since she has NO idea what's going  on with you and yours, and it put her in a horrible mood.   :dramaqueen:

However if she brings it up and starts complaining, say, "That's a shame..." - and quickly change the subject or end the call, if her mood is that foul.   :yes:

You may decide in that week she's gone, you LIKE that much peace and quiet, so that's how often you call - once a week *only* but you'll probably decide pretty quickly even *that* is too much, and lower contact further because you're not only finding you have to kind of work yourself up into the right frame of mind to talk to her, but you're getting *really* sick of listening to the same old, same old.   :blahblahblah: :blowup:

That's *okay* - that's *healthy,* normal and natural.   :yes:

Nobody really wants to talk to Debbie Downer and listen to her worldview of every silver lining having a dark cloud.   

Oh!  And if she does bring up that vacation you were all supposed to go on (NO!  Don't do it!  RUN!  :aaauuugh:  ), or it gets close to the time where you have to shore up reservations and she's expecting information, you might want to say, "Something came up and we have to postpone.  I'll let you know when we've rescheduled..." - and then you just *don't.*   :ninja:

If she demands to know why, maybe you and DH are both getting slammed at work, or swamped with work, or it's "just a bad time right now" - with NO further explanation.

If she demands to know *why* it's a bad time, say, "I just told you.  It's a bad time.  I don't know when - or if - we'll be able to reschedule."   :ninja:

That one *was* effective - and Didi would usually slam the phone down in my ear, but I really didn't *care* at that point, because I was over her crapola and antics, and just wanted to be free of her.

I have a feeling you're probably going to get to that point pretty quickly, yourself.   :evil2:

:hug:

Quote from: Sidney37 on May 08, 2019, 07:02:52 AM
...She then went on to nearly admit that she sent a flying monkey my way to find out what my summer vacation plans were since there's been no more talk of the vacation I was supposed to take with my uPDm and enD.  I didn't tell them it was off, but stopped mentioning the planning of it after her visit a month ago.  She won't directly ask me about it or even mention it, so she has a relative that I talk to once or twice a year do it instead. ::)  It was obvious to me that it was a flying monkey attempt, but she thinks that she's so clever and secretive.   :doh:

And then she gave me the  gloating "because you haven't called me I didn't tell you..." line that she loves to use. Usually it's a death in the family, but this time she's taking a vacation and didn't tell me! :stars:  She seemed to think this was some terrible thing that she did by not telling me that she was leaving tomorrow for a vacation.  I really didn't care.  I responded with a "that's nice" and asked where she was going.  She seemed stunned that I didn't react the way that she would - with total furor that I was keeping something from her that she felt she had a right to know. 

That's really good that you responded with "That's nice" and basically refused to get upset over her "unannounced" vacation plans.  I think she's playing PA games here.  She very likely could still be ticked off that your family told her after you were in transit that you were going on a 2-day spur-of-the-moment trip.  As I recall from a previous post, she was in a snit because you didn't have time to visit her.  Also, she's probably ticked over the fact you haven't mentioned the planned joint vacation.

So what does she do?  "I'll get Sydney.  I'll plan an 'unannounced' vacation of my own.  Wait until the last minute and then tell her, hoping she will feel 'left out' of my plans."  Her PA way of getting even with you.  Only her plan failed because you didn't take the bait.  I wonder if she really is going, or if it was just a stunt to try to get your goat.  At any rate, good for you you didn't give her a reaction!   :applause:

Maybe I should start a new post.  I thought I'd just vent here to those of you who knew what was going on.  They went on their vacation I assume.  I talked to her before she left the middle of this week, the day she told me about the vacation.  I called yesterday to say Happy Mother's day.  It just was 4 or 5 days later, but as I've posted, I'm expected to call every single day.  They had their phones turned off the entire day.  They went straight to voicemail.  I called a few times throughout the day - voicemail.  In the afternoon I left messages on her phone and his.  They never called back. 

Now today, my enD is posting passive aggressive memes and commenting on memes about loving your mother and respecting your mother.  Told one of his friends that their children (his and the friend's) kids don't love and respect their mothers the way they did.  Memes about loving your mother because one day they will be gone forever.  If it was just the memes it is one thing, but totally calling out his own child (me) on Facebook in front of our mutual friends and my husband's relatives because I don't love and respect my mother, is unacceptable.  My DH wants to comment in some snarky way on the posts about how they had their phones turned off all day and he's glad to see they are OK since no one called us back on Mother's Day.  I said it's not worth it and JADEing.  He thinks we need to defend ourselves and call them out publicly on their bad behavior.  I said the people here would say it wasn't worth it.  If I unfriend or block, they will say it's just because I'm the bad child and awful person.  It will be more evidence for the smear campaign.  How do you deal with the social media smear campaign when you've done nothing wrong?

My opinion is you completely ignore it. This isn't a battle you can win, but it sure can get ugly while attempting to win. I stopped looking at PD's FB pages at all. One of the best choices I made. Every single time I wavered and took a peek, I was upset for hours-days. It's not worth it. You rise above it and simply live your best life, understanding they will play games, not answer phones and then accuse family of being so unloving.

uNBPDm did the EXACT same thing a few Mother's Days ago. It was just one more thing that started the rapid unravel of what was left of our relationship. This is not the behavior of healthy, mature and loving people.

 :yeahthat:

Also, I think one voicemail/attempt is sufficient. But anyway, about the social media smear campaign... I am off FB now but when I was on there and saw passive-aggressive crap like that, I thought badly of the person posting it, NOT the person it was targeting. Maybe the person posting's feelings were validly hurt and maybe not, but it has nothing to do with me and looking for validation against somebody else with everyone they know is really cheap and nasty. This is just shaming, and has no constructive value. Hold your head up. Talk about love and respect, they are showing YOU exactly the opposite here. If flying monkeys don't see it that way, well you know what to do.

Social media - I hit "unfollow" so I don't see their stuff. Eventually I did unfriend and block just because ... My snarky 'tween reared her head and I felt like it and don't care anymore what PD persons do. However I do care what others think as a result of smear campaigns and medium chill those away with "really? How odd, we spoke just the other day, I'm not at all sure why you're under the impression we never talk, is that what she told you?" Cue backpedaling and trying to smooth things over.

Eventually over time some are catching on to the game and see it clearly.

Thanks all.  I just unfollowed all of my relatives, yes all, and created a list so that I can post without them seeing what I post.  It's sad that we have to do these things to keep our mental health safe from the damage that they do.  I just can't understand how they think this will cause us to continue to follow their rules when they walk all over boundaries, scapegoat, smear, give the silent treatment, etc.  It just pushes me away. 

I think you did a great job in unfollowing relatives you suspect will be FMMs - or start a smear campaign.   :yes:

The best way to survive one is to *not participate* and ignore it.  Smart people will figure out what's really going on, and ones still stuck in the FOG will keep drinking the kool-aid.  That's just the way it is.

If anybody says (directly TO you) that your mother is saying this and that about you, I've found the best way to address it is to say, "That's really strange.  If she has a problem with me, I wish she'd tell me instead of telling everybody but me.  Anyway..." - and change the subject.   :ninja:

That puts the listener on notice that they're being *played* - and most people don't like to be used.   :thumbdown: :P

I agree - ONE phone message is sufficient.  You don't have to keep calling and hoping, but you did confirm something:  your mother is playing stupid, childish games and made it *impossible* for you to get hold of her on MD, so she's got something to *complain about.*  :violin:

I get where your DH is coming from in wanting to jab back on FB, with something like, "Mothers  who complain about not hearing from their children on MD, while keeping their phones turned off for the entire day obviously have their priorities elsewhere."   :evil2:

I get it - but I wouldn't do it.  Yeah, a little snark never hurt anybody, but your mother may see that as an act of WAR - and you don't need that!   :spooked:

Personally, since she's giving you the ST now, I'd tack on a few days between calls as a *penalty* for bad behavior.  If you were planning on calling Tuesday - I'd call Friday, instead.   :ninja:

And I'd consider blocking her number between your scheduled calls, just to keep it peaceful at your home.   :)

You wrote:

It just pushes me away.

The same thing happened to me - all Didi's constant crapola did was make me put even more distance between us, to the point I was calling once every 3 weeks - if then.  And in that call, I'd tell her NOT one thing, and refer all her complaints to her doctor, which would result in her slamming the phone down.   :roll:

That's when she started having herself hospitalized, and I just *wasn't having it.*   NO, I will NOT visit.  I am BUSY.   8-)

You have to wonder if people like your mom and Didi ever heard the phrase, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

What I think happens is they revert to things that worked when we were small, vulnerable children, terrified of mommy's wrath and foul moods - and all the things that came with them.

But we're *adults* now and her power is *diminishing* because you actually have NOTHING to fear except her nasty words - and those words have NO power, if we choose to let them have no power.  :yes:

And, in some ways, your mom and Didi act like angry toddlers, themselves - having tantrums when they don't get their way, which is total enmeshment and capitulation, 100% of the time - no exceptions!  :blink:

A healthy relationship *doesn't work like that* - but they don't want healthy relationships; they want total CONTROL, and will use just about any means to get it.

*Allow* yourself to be pushed away and *forcibly* pry her many tentacles off you and your life with firm *boundaries:*

If she blocks me on her cell phone so she misses a holiday call, I will leave ONE message, block her number and not call for X amount of days.   :thumbup: 8-)

That's not retaliatory - that just makes *good sense* because this person is NOT in control of the relationship.  Relationships are two-sided, and if she won't give an inch, you have to force the issue.

The next time you talk to her, don't mention her vacation or the whole MD fiasco.  Stick to your Medium Chill talking points, and end the call if she becomes upset or abusive, or excessively sarcastic.

You don't have to put up with it from anybody - especially somebody who calls herself your mother.

If she had a lick of sense, she'd be ashamed of herself, but I've found there's NO level they won't stoop to, to keep the playing field 150% tilted in their direction, while screaming it's not FAIR because the playing field is 150% tilted in YOUR direction, so you must GIVE and DO MORE.  :bawl: :mad: :dramaqueen:

That's not love.  That's abuse and control.  And you don't need it in your life.    >:(

:hug:

It's been over a week and finally I'm seeing the gift that the silent treatment can be.  My DH and I have also discovered (he hadn't unfollowed any of them) that they were on vacation with the most toxic PD in the family who caused a huge family fight several years ago.  My parents had refused to see that person since, until this vacation apparently.  It will certainly reinforce my uNPDm's opinions of the situation with me.  It always does, because this other person is much more toxic, has children who are NC and encourages my uPDm.

We also discovered that a few items that went missing from our house when my parents were here might actually have been put in a place that we would have issues finding them if we didn't do as she insisted - She might have hidden them.  The only explanation is that she did it.  There were a few items belonging to my DD and DH that she was complaining hadn't been put away.  I found them this week somewhat buried under a pile of things that she was on my case to clean while she was here.  It wasn't a priority for me to clean that area until now, but it was upsetting her that it needed to be straightened ASAP.  I had called her weeks ago to ask about the missing items, to see if she had seen them or accidentally taken them home.  She insisted that she hadn't.   It should have clicked when she started taunting me and mocking my husband for having lost his important items that she had something to do with it.  It almost sounds paranoid to admit that I think she hid items of my DH and DD to see how long it would take me to clean an unused area of my house that wasn't a priority.  My DD is supposedly her GC, so why would she hide her important item as well?  To punish me!

Normal families don't operate this way.  The silent treatment might certainly turn into NC the clearer this all becomes. 

Hi Sidney37,

Your mother is playing more childish games, designed I believe to provoke a reaction from you.  She wants to manufacture chaos and watch you spin. 

I would not mention the fact you found the items.  The way she did this, it was so PA-- deniable.  She can still claim she had not seen the items and it was your inattention to cleaning that "hid" them from view, i.e., "you caused this problem"!

So don't take the bait.  I will go out on a limb here and predict that the next time you talk to her-- and she will eventually call you-- she will ask if you ever found the items.  I would say "Oh, those.  I'm sure they will turn up.  Turns out they weren't that important after all."  What she wants is for you to get upset because of the items.  If you act like it's no big deal, she won't have the satisfaction of pushing your buttons.  Also, if she does bring them up, you will know that she was indeed behind their going missing in the first place. 

I think it's important for you not to call her at this point.  Let her call you.  That was great that you did not show any reaction to her going on vacation.  I also think that because she invited this toxic PD along, it was another PA game of hers to get you upset.  She knows you don't like this person, so she makes them "her ally" to again, try to upset you.

Keep on with the medium chill.  Don't give her any personal info about you and your family.  Act polite, but not super interested in her vacation.  If she gets in a dig about the "unfollowing", don't take the bait.  Don't JADE.  Just say "I don't really want to talk about that" and if she persists shut down the conversation.

It sounds like you are getting the hang of Medium Chill.  It's difficult, but empowering to know you are shifting the spotlight from your mother to you and your family.   :yes:

I completely agree with Illogical in waiting for your mom to call *you* and when she does, don't even bring up the items.  If she brings them up, I'd do exactly as Illogical advises:  "Oh, they'll turn up.  They really weren't important, after all."

She *wants* you upset.  She wants to push your buttons, and watch you *react negatively* - so don't give her the pleasure.  :ninja:

If your mom is going to play asinine, childish games, her last visit to your house would be, IMO, just that - her last visit *ever.*    :yes:

Remember the reaction she had when you weren't upset about her vacation?  *That's* what I think the outcome will be when you announce the items aren't important and they'll turn up.  It's not that you're trying to hurt her, but take the wind out of her sails.   8-)

Stick to Medium Chill, especially if your mom brings up how much *fun* she had with the person you dislike - "That's nice."  "Good for you." - and the like.  :ninja:

And tell her nothing of yourself, your FOO - any of it.  You've been busy with the usual.  Same old, same old.   Never a dull moment around here.   :ninja:

As for the unfollowing - again, Ilogical nails it - "I don't want to talk about that." - and if she gets upset, end the call.   8-)

You've *got* this, Sidney - especially now that you've experienced the sweet, sweet freedom of the Silent Treat and realize how much you like it.  It gives you freedom to process and move forward, because you're not being constantly poked, prodded, baited, goaded, antagonized, or verbally battered by your mother - who is old enough to know better, but chooses to act like a nasty toddler, having an extended tantrum.   :pissed:

I used to *love* it when Didi would slam the phone down, because it meant two weeks of peace and quiet.  For some reason, it was *always* two weeks - never more or less - like she figured that would be the *exact* amount of time it would take for me to learn my lesson, I'd come crawling back and tearfully apologize, while promising to never do it again.   :roll:

I never did learn that lesson - nor did I grovel, cry or apologize.   :sunny:  I took a page out of her book, acted like nothing at all had happened, and acted like everything was just *lovely* - which she hated, because her desired effect was to hurt me and make me feel bad.

I really do think that was the only thing that gave her joy.

As I said, it was never my intent to intentionally hurt her, but denying her the ability to hurt me was beneficial *to my mental health.*  I didn't get angry, I didn't get upset, I wasn't too enthusiastic about anything, I was low-key, like I was talking to a stranger I'd just met at a bus stop - you'd never give that person detailed information about you and yours - and *that* effectively blunted her fangs and talons.   :yes:

I was actually quite proud of my new Teflon-coated kevlar armor, because anything she'd throw at me would slide right off - you're well on your way to having your own set, which will protect you and serve you well.   8-)

:hug:

It's been almost 3 weeks since I have talked to her.  My dad called.  We talked about what the issues are.  I told him what my boundaries were with her.   I reminded him of the boundaries set years ago that she broke during their last visit.  He reminded me all of the ways that he avoids her at home for treating him the same way she treats me.  He wanted sympathy for it being worse for him because he has to live with her.   I reminded him that was his choice.  He's clearly a fixer.  He confirmed that he knows how badly she treats me and others, but wants me to ignore her PD behavior because she's never going to change.  She isn't going to change, but I don't have to listen to it, especially not daily.    I told him that. 

A few hours later my uNDPm called and snapped at my husband that she was calling to find out why I am mad at her because she hadn't done anything to me.  It was like a young teen being required to apologize to their sibling but refusing to.  She didn't leave a real message or tell him to have me call.  She just half shouted about how she had to call to figure out why I'm mad this time when she never does anything.  I never called back.  They haven't called me. 

This might really be it?  I might not talk to them again?  It's very sad in some ways.  My anxiety is less because she's not insulting me and creating non-stop negativity in my life.  But at the same time, it's so sad.  I could care less about flying monkeys at this point.  She's shown her true self.  Who cares what lies she tells about me to her church ladies.  I'm sad that I might never see or talk to my dad again.    Does it sometimes just end this way?  It's strange, honestly. 

Yes it's sad because it's a loss to grieve. There's no way to tell at this point if it's an end or if it will just slip into contact as needed or weddings and funerals only or let's sweep this under the rug occasional contacts or no contact if the silent treatment continues. It's hard to live with that sort of uncertainty but yes that's exactly how it is for some of us and I understand.

Hi Sidney37,

Remind yourself that you are in control here.  If you want to remain in contact, you can.  If you want to sever contact, you can.  The level of contact is up to you, although your parents' behavior may "make" that choice for you.

The fact your enD wanted you to ignore your mother's PD behavior is very telling.  He wants you to come back "into the web" and assume your role of Scapegoat.  So very typical when one tries to break away from a dysfunctional family.  But he is asking the impossible of you.  You cannot "un-see" your mother's PD behavior.  The scales have fallen from your eyes and you are Out of the FOG.  You "see" your mother's PD behavior and your dad's enabling behavior in all their "glory" (or hell, as the case may be  :yes:).  And, as such, you have to make some hard decisions.  But you don't have to make them right away.  And you don't have to make the decision to go NC permanent.  You can proceed at your own pace and do what is best for you.

Telling that your mother called you.  She obviously sent your dad to "stick a toe in the water" and find out how you would respond.  Only you didn't fall in line.  You told him you didn't have to listen to her bullshit.  In my opinion, that was a pivotal moment for you.  You stood up to your mother, The Bully, and you said "No more!"  I think that is a milestone.  There is no going back to the web here.  No going back in the FOG.  Regardless of how this plays out, you are free.

Like I said, your mother calling you, but dealing with your husband and not you, was telling.  It tells me that she is very much a bully and really-- on the inside-- a scared little rabbit.  That's what bullies are.  They bluster and fluster, but on the inside they are quivering, shivering masses of jelly. 

You have come so far, here.  You are in control and that's a really big deal.  Yes, it's sad that it has come to this, but that's reality.  Your mother will never be the mother you deserved or want.  Take your time to process this.  You are strong!!

I agree with everything Illogical wrote, and then some!   :applause: :thumbup:  :worship:

Your dad calls you and tries playing the victim.  Good for calling him on it and saying it's his choice to live with her, because that's *exactly* what it is.  People don't win Victim Awards for staying in abusive relationships because they *get something out of the Dysfunctional Dance.*   :blink:

If he wanted to leave, he would have left - and it doesn't give him cart blanche to spin his tales of woe to you, to get you back in your little Scapegoat box, so the Eye of Sauron no longer falls on him.   :aaauuugh:

He picked her - he can live with the consequences.   :yes:

I know why your mom called your DH - your dad probably got off the phone with you, and your mom grilled him, asking, "WTF is her problem, anyway?"   :mad:

And to keep the peace, good ol' enabling dad says the same thing he's probably been prone to saying most of his adult life, to save his hide.   "I dunno."   :roll:

Even when he DOES know, the answer is still, "I dunno" - because you *told him what the problems were* - and he's too chicken shit to address them with your mom, who puts it down to you being "mad" and she's done NOTHING to make you mad.  (BTW - she does NOT get to make that determination, and I know you're probably anything *but* angry - disgusted, weary, wanting peace, wanting to be left alone, and sick and tired of the bullshit, but certainly not angry!)

The level of contact you're *comfortable with* is up to YOU.   8-)

If you don't want to call for another three weeks, but the date grows closer and you're thinking, "Eh...I'd really rather not hear it.  I think I'll consider it again next week, and see how *strong* I feel then..." - that's perfectly FINE.   :)

Nothing is set in stone - and YOU make the rules.   :yes:

Yes, your mother calling your DH was *very* telling - like she's *tattling on you* for being a BAD DAUGHTER and thinks your DH will take you to task for it, instead of backing you up.   :roll:

Since your DH  had your back, there probably won't be more divide and conquer tactics, unless she starts bending your ear about how terrible he is.

If she does, say only, "That's really odd.  I'll have to mention it to him..." - and she will FLIP the hell out, but stick to your guns, stating only, "I don't keep secrets from my DH."   :ninja:

And that will be the end of THAT.   :yahoo:

And of *course* you'll tell your DH, while rolling your eyes and making a really silly face, indicating you know she's full of crapola.   :banana:

I'd expect your mom to stage some kind of "medical emergency" if she's not getting her way and has done so in the past - if she does, "stay out of it, completely.*  Do NOT go to the ER or the hospital, even if she's admitted for testing or some made-up problem or another - or even a real one.   :ninja:

This is important - she can't *summon* you with sickness, real or faked.  You are BUSY with your own life and your FOC, and the world doesn't just stop because somebody is admitted to the hospital.   :yes:

The first few days are easy - you don't want to be in the way - and that's *true.*  You want to let the doctors, nurses, and all other hospital personnel do their thing.

After that, you're just too busy and can't get away.  Whether you send flowers or a card is up to you, but I wouldn't.  Why provide intermittent reinforcement that her ruse may be working and she's just got to keep plugging away at being constantly "siiiiiiiiiiick..."     :dramaqueen: :violin:

I only mention it because you said something about being NC until a medical scare - well, she knows that one works - or *worked.*  Prove to her it doesn't by not budging an inch.   8-)

You are doing SO well, Sidney!  I am really impressed with how far you've come, so quickly - but remember this is a marathon, and YOU get to set the pace.  :sunny:

:hug:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on May 26, 2019, 10:50:08 PM
...This is important - she can't *summon* you with sickness, real or faked.  You are BUSY with your own life and your FOC, and the world doesn't just stop because somebody is admitted to the hospital.   :yes:

This is so true!  My relationship with my NM changed dramatically beginning when I refused to rush to her side after a "fall".  The ALF called me and I did not answer my phone-- let it go to v-mail.  The ALF woman was very annoyed with me-- I could tell by the tone of her voice.  She said "Your mother needs help!" with disdain in her voice.  I did not call the ALF back.  They summoned an ambulance because they were not equipped to deal with an injury (independent facility).  I know they expected me to rush to her side, but I did not.  I let a couple of hours go by, then called GC brother who was "hiding out" several states away (lol).  I told him I was no longer going to be responsible for NM.  She was all his!

WI is right-- I think a medical "emergency" is a distinct possibility here.  Even if you decide to go to the hospital, my humble advice is to delay your response.  Because really, the only support you can give is emotional.  You aren't medical personnel, so you can't attend to her medical needs.  So if you find yourself in that situation-- and I earnestly hope you don't-- tell yourself the world won't end if you delay your response.  That allows you some control over the situation because you are responding, but not reacting by rushing to her side. 

I also think it's great you don't care about the "church ladies" (flying monkeys).  That's a nice place to be, in that mindset that you don't let others' reactions drive your decisions.  Keep that in mind if you get a phone call from the hospital.  Maintain Medium Chill!

Thanks again everyone.  Your advice is helping so much!

I totally think there will be a medical "emergency".  The question is "whose"?  Will she have a trip to the ER due to her stress over this and since she knows it worked before.  I didn't run there, but it opened up the lines of communication.  Or will he have so much stress from dealing with her constant complaining and picking at him because I'm not falling into line that he will have a stress induced illness?  Honestly it could be either.   I won't go to the hospital this time either.  I live hours away and unless the timing is just right, I can't pull kids out of school or summer camp to race down there for what is likely nothing.  Or even if it is something, what am I going to do with 2 kids in a hospital room?  The issue for me will be if it's him with an actual medical emergency.  Then what?

I think she certainly "made" him call me to find out what is going on.  He likely told her that he doesn't know and she needs to call me herself.  Unfortunately for her, she got my DH on the phone who told her that I'd be back later and that she should call then.  She didn't. 

Next up will either be a medical emergency or an email that she has taken me off as POA and beneficiary on all of her accounts.  That was her threat last time.  She actually took me off of most of the accounts.  Supposedly I was just recently put back on - years later.  Oh well.  Good luck getting someone else do deal with this as you age.  I'm an only child.  There is no one else that is going to deal with this.  If I no longer have POA or medical POA, oh well.  I hope her church lady friends are available to deal with the drama. 

I'm just wondering if they ever show their true colors to others once they run off their relatives?  I wonder if the church ladies will get a dose of all of this if I'm not around?

QuoteThe issue for me will be if it's him with an actual medical emergency.  Then what?

then he goes to the doctor or to the emergency room like every other adult. There's nothing you can do, you're not a medical professional.

QuoteI'm just wondering if they ever show their true colors to others once they run off their relatives?

once I disconnected yes I've had comments from others in the community that they're not sure what's gotten into my parents. Sometimes I just shrug, sometimes I ask what do you mean and get a good dose of validation, sometimes I just say oh that's nothing new that I've seen the same since childhood. Depends. Never though do I share my unprofessional undiagnosed PD suspicions.

Quote from: Spring Butterfly on May 27, 2019, 01:17:35 PM
once I disconnected yes I've had comments from others in the community that they're not sure what's gotten into my parents. Sometimes I just shrug, sometimes I ask what do you mean and get a good dose of validation, sometimes I just say oh that's nothing new that I've seen the same since childhood. Depends. Never though do I share my unprofessional undiagnosed PD suspicions.

Do I say anything when their relatively new church pastor calls?  Do I share anything?  Based on their recent friendship with this young new pastor, I'm expecting that phone call first.  The pastor will call with genuine concern and probably a bunch of lies from my uPDm.  I doubt this pastor has a clue about PDs.

Do you mean you think the pastor will try to intercede on their behalf to try to initiate reconciliation?

Yes.  They have a fairly new young pastor who has made friends with my uPDm and enD.  My impression is that this new pastor sees my parents and a few other older couples at the church like adopted parents so to speak since the pastor's own parents are far away.   If I get a call from anyone trying to initiate a conversation or reconciliation, I believe this pastor will be the one.   I think it's pretty likely that I will get that call.  Do I treat a pastor like any other flying monkey?  Do attempt explain that the truth is certainly very different than the version this pastor has likely heard from my uPDm?

I really can't imagine their pastor would call and butt into your family business.  If he did, I would say something like "I appreciate your concern, but I'm fine.  These things are complicated.  Again, I appreciate your concern."  And leave it at that.  Don't give any information.  Drop that ball back in his court big time, if he has the nerve to insinuate himself (innocently or not). 

Your mother very likely has painted you in a dark and foreboding light here, to the pastor and the "church ladies".  It's part of the smear campaign.  Read up on it and learn what to do and what not to do.  Maybe you already know, since you went NC previously.  It's not a pretty thing.  I remember well getting stared at by unwitting pawns in my NM's game, who stared daggers at me when I encountered them.  WTF?  Welcome to the world of The Smear Campaign.

I don't think the "church ladies" are wise to your mother's game, but you never know.  If they are only around her occasionally, they may not have seen the mask slip.  They may never see the "real" her, just an illusion of a "poor old lady whose daughter has done her wrong."  Enter violins.   :violin:

Usually I go with something like "that's really sad they've gotten you all involved and really I'm fine but thanks for your concern." Then shut it down. Change subject. If he keeps pursuing it then medium chill like any other FM - really busy own life sort of stuff focused on me and away from issues, nothing to forgive, I'm at peace, not sure why they're all upset and worked up, doing the best I can, blah blah blah super chill.

Sidney, my uNF has used their pastor as a flying monkey. To try to set up uNF seeing my children without my presence.  :sadno:

Exactly what you said, treat him as any other flying monkey. The title of pastor does not entitle him to break boundaries more than anybody else. It doesn't give them any special knowledge either. Pastors can absolutely be as clueless about disordered people as anybody else, but in their case the potential for damage is greater, because people are more likely to trust them. They have a certain aura of authority, and I'm sure that's why my uNF was so keen to have the pastor on his side. But in matters like this, that's just an illusion.

I wrote back something like, "I appreciate your concern, but this is between my parents and myself. No, I cannot in good conscience share details with you.  My decision to separate myself and my children from my parents was not made lightly, on the contrary with a great deal of professional counsel and spiritual direction. I am not open to mediation from you or any other person. Thank you for your respect and prayers."

Probably should have left out the part about professional counsel, kind of JADE, but I wanted him shut down. At the time it was majorly triggering to me. Not to mention pastors have actual good work they need to do without wasting their time being used by PwPDs. I would not feel bad at all about being very firm if necessary. He might feel it is his Christian duty to help along a reconciliation. But it's overstepping and you are doing nothing wrong here. No flying monkey is entitled to any explanation or justification for your actions.

When I was beset upon by a *nun* acting as a FMM, I shut her down with, "I'm sorry you've gotten involved, but it's really none of your concern.  Please don't call again."

Well, that was after I asked her if Didi put her up to calling - while trying not to laugh.   :evil2:

She then told me I had NO idea what was going on - I told her I knew *exactly* what was going on, and it was between me and Didi.  Thanks for your concern, but again - please don't contact me again.  :ninja:

That's what I'd say to all church ladies - and pastors.  You're not being discourteous, but you are univiting them from your business.  :yes:

Don't worry about the POA stuff - if anything happens to one of them, the other is probably POA.  If they didn't have the presence of mind to do that - oh well.  That's their problem and *they* can figure it out *without your help.*   :yes:

If you don't want to be POA in the event one of them passes, that's fine - if you're still in contact with them, remind the surviving parent to name somebody as POA - like a FMM or that pastor.  Your dad will probably be shocked but your mom will *flip out* - because you're not groveling and you're basically saying hey, it's all your stuff and your affairs - do as you please.  8-)

If you're not POA and you get a  call asking if you're Sidney and do you have POA, it means one of several different scenarios could be on the table:

1.  Surviving parent is unconscious and can't make medical decisions for him/herself. 

     1A - Follow up question - do you know if your parent has a DNR in place and if they do, can you bring it NOW?

      NO - the hospital can call their doctor and ask THEM to fax it to the hospital,  if a DNR even exists.  :ninja:

2.  Surviving parent's competence seems to be waning and a competency test may have been flubbed.  (These calls will be made by social workers, and it's okay to BLOCK them.)

3.  Surviving parent has been declared incompetent and will be placed in a memory care unit, ASAP.

4.  Surviving parent passed on.

In all cases *DO NOTHING. *SIGN NOTHING.*  Don't even put in an appearance - just tell the caller you do NOT have POA, you don't know who does, you can't help them, and certainly there rules in place when this sort of thing happens - you can't be the only person on earth who has a parent who didn't name them POA.

That last part it is the magic part - saying that you can't be the only person on earth who has had this sort of thing happen  prompts others to *think* - because *you're right* - not everybody has somebody, especially an exceptionally long-lived parent who has survived his or her entire FOO.  (Rare - but true.)   :)

And there ARE contingencies put in place, that others may have to research, while you do *nothing.*   :ninja:

That's right - nothing but stay out of it, and tell people you can't sign a thing, as you're not POA and you're not *committing financial suicide* by signing something that could come back to bite you on the butt, later.

Always keep in mind - some people don't want to do the *right* thing - they want to do the *easiest* thing that clears the problem from their plates, and to them, it may seem that hectoring, browbeating you and badgering you to get your buns over there and sign papers that may *ruin* your FOC is the easiest thing.   >:(

Resist - and BLOCK.   :ninja:

They may sound like they have authority - they have NONE.  That's why they're trying to make it all roll downhill and land on you. 

But...I don't think you'll have to worry about any of that until about 1.5 years after one of your parents actually does pass.  That's when things tend to go *really* wonky on Planet PD, IME.    :stars:

:hug:

Thanks all again for your stories and advice.  I'm taking it one day at s time with deep breaths and exercise to try to calm the anxiety of this unknown/what will happen next current situation.

  No call from the pastor yet, but I'm expecting it any time.  I wasn't as clear as I could have been to explain why I'm fairly certain I'll get that call.   I was somewhat vague in case anyone in my family found me here.  I'm caring less and less about it as I come more Out of the FOG.  So what if they find me here.  What's the worst that could happen?

The pastor is a woman and her own mother passed away when she was a teen.  I think she might have dropped out of college to care for her, if i remember the story correctly.  The rest of her family is somewhat far away.  I've not met her, but I get the impression that she has taken on my mother and a few other older women as surrogate mothers of sorts.  She tells my parents that she a great relationship with her own mother, from what I've been told.  Who knows,  since it's my parents telling me this.  I don't think she'll understand my situation one bit.

In the mean time my DH hasn't blocked my parents on social media and apparently the snarky memes about family, avoiding unkind people, not needing drama in their lives  (lol) have continued.  It's ironic, considering I appear to be getting the silent treatment.  My DH told her when she called him (to find out why I'm mad when she hadn't done anyyyyythingggg wroooonggg) when I'd be home to call me back.  She hasn't called. 

This certainly isn't easy.  I'm taking baby steps and breathing deeply a lot.  Wow is this hard.  I have nothing at all to say to her and don't want to call because i know there will be verbal abuse on the other end, but I hate the way this makes me feel.

QuoteI'm caring less and less about it as I come more Out of the FOG.  So what if they find me here.  What's the worst that could happen?

QuoteI have nothing at all to say to her and don't want to call because i know there will be verbal abuse on the other end, but I hate the way this makes me feel.

*raises hand yes to both these statements. Similar feelings here.

It got tons more easier for me the busier I got with my own life and focusing my attention where it should have been my entire life: on living mine and only mine.

Let me repeat/rephrase: it's everyone's basic human right to live their own life not worrying, fussing, agonizing over others lives. Other humans get to be part of our life but not our entire life as if our universe revolves completely around one other individual human and making sure that other human is happy. it's actually not even humanly possible to make someone else happy, that person gets to decide their own individual feelings for themselves. Not only that these other humans get to be part of our life only if we decide it is what we wish.

It's amazing how the anxiety over the VLC/NC can decrease when the PD shows their true colors.  I attempted to have a call to set clear boundaries with both uNPDm and enD the phone.  He wanted it.  I wasn't sold on it, but it was an opportunity to set the boundaries so he could see that she can't handle even the tiniest boundary.  He insisted that she could and he could fix it if I just talked to her. 

During the very brief call, he put her on the phone (he was on another handset to listen in) and she asked in a very aggressive tone why I was mad at her.  I told her I wasn't mad but frustrated over things i thought were critical that were said to me on the last few phone conversations.   I said that i don't like to talk on the phone when I am getting criticized.  I wonder t be continuing to talk to her when she criticizes me.   She insisted that she had no idea what I was talking about and wanted an example. Typically I wouldn't have given any because it would be a JADE.  My enD was aware of 2 very critical comments she made to me last month on the phone.   She was dredging up 20 and 25 year old decisions I had made about college, majors, career choices, grad school and why all of those choices were terrible and her choices for me would have been better.   He was on the phone at the time and has said since that he didn't think they were nice or ok for her to have said.  I gently said that I didn't like it when she said xxx  or xxx to me.  It felt very critical and i didn't  like it.  She denied ever saying either thing, went into a full on rage, screamed at me, used a modified swear word (she prides herself on never swearing or losing her cool), called me crazy, hung up on me and threw the phone. 

I expected a bad reaction, but she never does that in front of anyone but me, not even my enD.  It just confirmed to me what I had told him earlier in the day.  He insisted that she would be nice to me on the phone and we could just work this out if I talked to her.   Nope. 

This has gotten worse with age.  The other possibility is that she is getting dementia and doesn't really remember that she said any of these things.  I do know that  I can't talk to someone who is constantly criticizing my every decision or rages at me for just saying in the calmest tone ever that I didn't  like it when she said xxx to me.   I think we've reached NC. 

Have you read about The Cycle of Abuse?  It goes something like this--

Stage 1-- tensions build;  abuser abuses (may be lots of PA behavior)
Stage 2-- incident; raging; hide & lie/denial; no logic
Stage 3-- reconciliation;  abuser blame-shifts (or enabler/FM steps in and does this)
Stage 4-- "honeymoon" phase;  hoovers

Rinse, lather, repeat.

You confronted your mother and she hid & lied, denied, blame-shifted.  Your enD will likely shortly assume his "fixer" role and try to smooth things over.  The next phase might be more silent treatment (to punish you & try to bring you back in line) or the "medical emergency" we have long-anticipated.  I wouldn't be surprised if your dad told you that you had "terribly upset your mother and needed to apologize because she is headed for another breakdown".

Dementia?  Possible, but given the circumstances and the timing, I think "selective amnesia" is more likely.  I would not offer "dementia" to your enD as a possible excuse for your mother's denial.  He will take that ball and run with it, letting your mother "off the hook" for her bad behavior.

If your dad suspects your mother has dementia, HE can get your mother evaluated.  I would not discuss her medical condition or suspected medical condition(s) with him.  You will get pulled into more drama, regardless of what is really going on with her physically.

Your mother has, indeed, shown her true colors.  Your father will likely cover for her, as he has done in the past.  Time to enter The Observation Booth where you observe what is going on, take notes, but don't interact.  Be the objective scientist, not part of the experiment.   :yes:

Thanks.  I haven't read the Cycle of Abuse.  I'll add it to my Kindle, too.  The more I read (I didn't read about this the last time around a few years ago), the more I know that I am doing the right thing. 

The only reason I say dementia is that her mother and grandmother both had it and it started at a similar age.  I've noticed some other minor memory gaps and personality changes in the past 3 months.  But you are right, telling him will just give him an excuse.  It is certainly time to sit back and watch this. I'm assuming the call from pastor and medical emergency will come next. 

Wow, what a journey! Of course it's not over yet, but "watching" this all happen has been a privilege, really. Thank you for sharing as you go. It's been instructive. It is kind of like watching myself going NC in many ways. I too worked up my courage for a long time to say simply, "I was hurt when you said x," only to hear back total denial. I don't know how it's possible to deny what they said, when it was clearly very calculated, but now I know that's par for PDs. That hurt, and yes, led me to NC too. :hug:

Here's a link to an article on how The Cycle of Abuse relates to Ns.  It's basically like what I described in my last post, but goes into detail.  The Cycle of Abuse is often written about in terms of domestic violence, but can be related to N abuse-- with a few twists-- as described:

https://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2015/05/the-narcissistic-cycle-of-abuse/

Here's a quick read
https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/21/abusive-cycle

Thanks everyone.  Cordelia, I debated every time that I posted here in the past few weeks if I was asking too many question, needing too much help or just putting too much out there.   I'm glad that it was helpful to someone.  Without a current therapist, I'm just so very thankful that people here understand and have guided me though this in the past few months.  I'm not sure that I would have made the same decisions and made it to this place without the advice I got here.  It's not been easy.  It's been filled with tears and frustration.  I'm just thankful and appreciative that other people get it and are so supportive of strangers. 

I think what you're seeing with your mom isn't dementia, but narcissistic injury and RAGE.  She's ANGRY and she's older, so she's got fewer filters, and more apt to just FOOOOOOOOOM all over everything and everybody, and if somebody else sees it?  So what - she has the RIGHT to behave that way!   :pissed:

There comes a time in their lives when the PD really starts running the show, and as you've seen, it's NOT pretty!   It's like somebody cranking up the volume to 11 on the PD, or giving it steroids.    :aaauuugh:

I saw it happen to both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray - they wanted what they wanted, when they wanted it, and they were going to GET it, and *nothing was going to stand in their way!*

Didi was going to get that hospital bed she wanted here, and Ray was going to get me over at his, to be his on-call *slave.*   :sharkbait:

But...I malfunctioned.  The vending machine broke.  The washing machine stopped working and no amount of kicking was going to get it working again.  I did what *I wanted* and was best for MY FOC - and not what they *expected* me to do.   8-)

That led to *more* rage, on their parts - thankfully, they didn't tag-team me.  This happened  *one* PD at a time.  Didi wrongly thought more and more hospitalizations and slamming the phone down on me over virtually nothing would *motivate* me, and wound up dying in Hospice, instead, mad at the world; and Ray just overplayed his hand, thinking a fall would make his Visiting Nurse drag me over there, by my ear, and tell me to do my JOB.

He wound up getting declared incompetent instead - and reamed ME out, telling me *everything was all my fault* - when HE is the one who refused to use a cane or walker, and REFUSED to push the Life Alert button that was *right by his hand, the entire time!*   :stars:

Your dad  saw it in action, and may be surprised by it, but he's always going to take her side.  Fine - he picked her, he can care for her, while YOU put up more boundaries and call whenever you *feel* like calling - after that display (throwing the phone?  REALLY!?   :doh:), I don't think I'd call for at least another few *months.*   :ninja:

Get her used to the *silence* - and if you call in a few months and she behaves just as badly, I'd seriously consider NC as a kindness to *both of you* - you won't have to listen to her freak out, and she'll have nothing to freak out about.   :)

Something I don't think a lot of people realize is that we may actually be *triggering* them when we malfunction or put up boundaries.  They can't handle it.  They freak!  They scream, tantrum, plot revenge, figure out a way to "get even" or *make* us do what they want - and the kindest thing we can do might be to just end the relationship, so they don't get so damned worked up over nothing.

After today's debacle, I hope NC is something you'll at least *consider* - because it's only going to keep getting worse, from here on out.   :spooked:

:hug:

And just as expected, a post appeared on FB today that "they" (my parents) were waiting for MRI results.  I no longer follow them on Facebook, so I heard about it by text from someone else who knows what is going on between them and me.  My in-laws and other relatives apparently have been asking for hours on Facebook what is going on with no response.  This is exactly what we expected.  No phone call or text from them, just the passive aggressive post that I never would have known about without the text from someone else.  Next up I'll start getting calls from in-laws asking what is going on.  It's taking everything not to send a text and ask WTH is going on.  I'm so frustrated. 

Vaguebooking. :roll: I bet she's just on the computer watching the notifications roll in, holding herself back from posting, relishing the dramatic moment.  :roll: Facebook really was made for supply.

Have your in-laws got wise to the way your mother is yet? Most people get tired of it once they figure out how their emotions are being played with. Either way, you truthfully know nothing. Not your monkeys. That urge to contact them and REACT to her drama is exactly what your mother would want imo. So keep on malfunctioning.  :righton:

It was my enD's post.  No clue if the results they are waiting for are hers or his.  My ILs know that she stopped speaking to me for months several years ago, but we haven't dragged them into any of it.  They likely wouldn't understand this at all.  The behavior is so foreign to them and their family, they just wouldn't understand. 

Whatever you do, *don't* ask what's going on with the MRI.  That's what they *want* - and you're bound to get nothing but crickets as a response.   :roll:

UnBPD Didi was big on that, too - she'd wail that they think she has caaaaaaaaancer, again, some more, and are sending her for more tests - mind you, "tests" could be *routine screenings* - the things we all go through at our annual physicals - but  Didi would milk them for *maximum* dramatics!   :dramaqueen: :violin:

Or they'd be running other tests, in a hospital - she'd be remarkably closed-mouthed  other than to tell me there were mysterious "tests" for her caaaaaaancer.   :violin:

I never took the bait.  A week or so later, she might try calling me, or it might be my scheduled time to call her, and I'd ask how the test results came out.  She'd very quietly say it's not cancer, but THEN dramatically wail that they *still don't know what's wrong with her, and I HAVE to do something about it!*   :dramaqueen:

Like...what, exactly?  I'm not a doctor.  I'm not a magician.  I don't have Harry Potter on speed dial.  There is *absolutely* nothing I can do other than *protect myself by staying as far away as possible from the farce.*  :ninja:

It got to the point I was saying to my DH, with an aw-shucks look and a snap of my fingers, "Still not cancer..." - because she'd gotten to the point she was saying it *every other day* - trying to get me over there.   :aaauuugh:

And I wasn't having it.  I stopped asking about test results.  I stopped asking about anything, period.  I started screening my calls and letting the machine pick up *everything.*  I honestly didn't want to hear it, because she'd burned me out on even pretending to care.

One day, Didi made the mistake of telling me there were about 50 people in her room, "trying to get her back" - forgetting that I knew she had a DNR in place.   :roll:

That was when I decided I was pretty much over it all - she could have all the drama and chaos she wanted, but I was OUT -  that's when she asked me what to do about end of life issues.  I got very quiet and didn't say anything.  She didn't say anything.  Finally I said, "are you serious?"  :???:

She said, "Only you can answer that question."  :dramaqueen:

I told her she was out of luck, because I had no answers to give her - it's her life.  She has to make the call - and she slammed the phone down on me.  :roll:

I don't know if your mom will take it to this extreme (I hope not, for your sanity!   :stars: ), but everything is a *mystery.*  It's a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma.  A SEEEEEEEEEEECRET!   There are shrouds and veils everywhere, and not one CLEAR piece of information to be found - only enough leaked info to make sure you're on your toes and *concerned* about what's going on.

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned.   That's what hospitals and doctors are for and it's not up to you to call and try to pump information out of them.  If they want to share, they'll share - and if they want to keep on being mysterious and vague, that's up to them.  It doesn't mean you have to respond to it.  :)

Anybody calls you or messages you on FB, to ask what's going on, tell them you have the same information they have, and that's all you know - then change the subject.

You'll be glad you did.   :yes:

:hug:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on July 08, 2019, 10:50:01 PM
...I don't know if your mom will take it to this extreme (I hope not, for your sanity!   :stars: ), but everything is a *mystery.*  It's a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma.  A SEEEEEEEEEEECRET!   There are shrouds and veils everywhere, and not one CLEAR piece of information to be found - only enough leaked info to make sure you're on your toes and *concerned* about what's going on.

So true!

A subscribing to the "Information is Power" mantra.  As Call Me Cordelia posted, a reaction to this is what your parents want.  I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. 

Some possible replies to FMs/busybodies who ask "What's going on?"--

"They haven't shared that information."
"I appreciate your concern."
"Thanks for asking."

All replies followed by nothing else on the subject.  No JADEing, no implied interest, or surprise, or shock or any reaction whatsoever here. 

This withholding of information is more punishment your mother is lobbing your way.  She hasn't gotten the reaction she wanted from The Silent Treatment, so she's trying this tactic.  She can tell others that "she hasn't heard a word from Sydney in weeks" or something else that implies you are the bad, uncaring daughter.  I would be prepared for smearing you (to family/friends) as well as a phone call from your dad to you or DH. 

Stand fast and keep lobbing that ball back in their court!

Thanks Illogical.  I knew we'd end up at this point.  Only my husband and my best friend from school even know I saw the post.  I'm avoiding Facebook quite a bit these days. 

Now that I've slept, I see how controlling they are.  He posted 12+ hours ago with all of these distant relatives and my in-laws posting asking what's wrong and that they will pray with no response from my parents.  I guess they could have sent private messages in response, but this information controlling is just another tactic. It's manipulative.  Wow.  In the fog, I never would have seen it.   If I call, I'll get the , "if you were talking to us you'd know" answer. 

He's called me 3 or 4 times in secret in the past month because the has "forbidden" him to talk to me.   :stars:  I don't need this anxiety.  As soon as I'm calm they do something to stir me up again.   

Just wondering if the reaction from me should be different if it's an actual serious medical issue?   I'm not going to call them, but I looked at the Facebook comments and a very kind lady who I know from home posted and it was clear that she knew additional info about the situation.   There was something about what she said that made it clear that it might be very serious.  Of course he's an adult and could call me if he actually wanted to and tell me that he was having tests. He had mentioned some symptoms when I saw him last (before the escalation of her drama) that had me concerned.  I suggested he get it checked out,  How do you deal with an actual medical issue with the enabler when the PD is giving you the silent treatment?

How you handle it is to say, when you are told *actual information* BY  your father, "I'm sorry to hear it, dad."

What you say from there is up to you - do you want details?  The prognosis? 

Other than that, *stay out of it.*  Your parents can manage their own care - and if they can't, they can hire *aides* or the doctor can send the Visiting Nurse to their house.   :yes:

*NONE* of this is  your problem.   :no:

I say this because your mother is probably going to be an absolute nightmare, because the attention *isn't on her.*  She'll feel snubbed, slighted, and probably start having her own "health issues" in an attempt to upstage your father and put the focus back on her.  :dramaqueen:

Since *she* will be the one at home, providing care, she'll probably become completely unbearable, screaming how OVERWHELMED she is, and she needs YOU to take her place, because it's just so HARD for her to sit on her butt and do absolutely nothing but *stew* that your *father needs  help.*  :violin:

Push it back to  her/their side of the plate - call the doctor and ask him to send the Visiting Nurse.  Call the doctor and ask them which company they recommend when it comes to hiring home health care.   :yes:

She'll probably snarl that she doesn't want to "bother" them - calmly say, "That's what they get paid to do.  You're not bothering them."  :ninja:

She just won't want anybody but YOU to take care of your dad (and her, of course, even though she doesn't need it) because if it's you, they won't have to BEHAVE and can let their freak flags fly.  :Monsta:

No matter how much you're begged, cajoled, pleaded, or *ordered* to help, it is NOT YOUR JOB.  A firm, "I can't do that.  This is not a discussion." is in order.  :ninja:

:hug:

As a note, the mods may lock this thread because 5 pages is the limit.  So in case they do, please start another one to address your concerns.

IMHO, you have to decide what level of contact you want with your parents.  It doesn't seem you have decided that.  Maybe you have-- if so, that's great. 

As you have posted, the "medical emergency" was expected.  Many of us predicted this would be the case.

As WI has posted in the past, the only thing you can do in a medical emergency or even medical "situation" is lend emotional support.  I am assuming you are not a doctor or nurse or medical personnel.  Therefore, the only thing you can do is engage (call or visit) and offer your empathy/sympathy or aid in some way. 

I would ask you, "What do you want?"  Do you want to be involved in your parents' medical care?  Do you want to be their caregiver, POA or otherwise?  Do you want to know about medical "situations" or emergencies so you can lend a sympathetic ear?

Only you can answer that question.  Your mother and father are enmeshed in a dysfunctional relationship.  They aren't likely to change.  In fact, the probability of them changing is next to nil.  So given the parameters, do you want to get "involved" with them via being informed and pressured to act in medical situations? 

The reason the decision of level of contact is important is that it will "drive" decisions on engaging with your parents.  And the decision on level of contact, btw, doesn't have to be a permanent one.  You can vacillate between VLC and NC and VVLC as you see fit.

For example, let's say you've decided to go VLC.  Then you would set about constructing a list of parameters-- things you were willing to do and not do.  A hypothetical--

I'm not willing to visit them except on major holidays.
I'm not willing to call them except every couple of months.
I will go to the hospital if it's an emergency.
I won't go to the hospital, even if it's an emergency.
I will only contact them via email and not phone.

Anyway, you get the picture.  You decide your desired level of contact-- what you can reasonably handle at this point-- then set up your own "rules" for what you are willing to do and not do, then go from there.  I think a plan like this would help you when crisis strikes, as it inevitably will. 

hey everyone-
this thread is being locked for length.  feel free to revist/ continue the topic in a new thread.