medium chill - did I do this right?

[Spring Butterfly]

Usually I go with something like "that's really sad they've gotten you all involved and really I'm fine but thanks for your concern." Then shut it down. Change subject. If he keeps pursuing it then medium chill like any other FM - really busy own life sort of stuff focused on me and away from issues, nothing to forgive, I'm at peace, not sure why they're all upset and worked up, doing the best I can, blah blah blah super chill.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Sidney, my uNF has used their pastor as a flying monkey. To try to set up uNF seeing my children without my presence. 

Exactly what you said, treat him as any other flying monkey. The title of pastor does not entitle him to break boundaries more than anybody else. It doesn't give them any special knowledge either. Pastors can absolutely be as clueless about disordered people as anybody else, but in their case the potential for damage is greater, because people are more likely to trust them. They have a certain aura of authority, and I'm sure that's why my uNF was so keen to have the pastor on his side. But in matters like this, that's just an illusion.

I wrote back something like, "I appreciate your concern, but this is between my parents and myself. No, I cannot in good conscience share details with you.  My decision to separate myself and my children from my parents was not made lightly, on the contrary with a great deal of professional counsel and spiritual direction. I am not open to mediation from you or any other person. Thank you for your respect and prayers."

Probably should have left out the part about professional counsel, kind of JADE, but I wanted him shut down. At the time it was majorly triggering to me. Not to mention pastors have actual good work they need to do without wasting their time being used by PwPDs. I would not feel bad at all about being very firm if necessary. He might feel it is his Christian duty to help along a reconciliation. But it's overstepping and you are doing nothing wrong here. No flying monkey is entitled to any explanation or justification for your actions.

[WomanInterrupted]

When I was beset upon by a *nun* acting as a FMM, I shut her down with, "I'm sorry you've gotten involved, but it's really none of your concern.  Please don't call again."

Well, that was after I asked her if Didi put her up to calling - while trying not to laugh.   

She then told me I had NO idea what was going on - I told her I knew *exactly* what was going on, and it was between me and Didi.  Thanks for your concern, but again - please don't contact me again. 

That's what I'd say to all church ladies - and pastors.  You're not being discourteous, but you are univiting them from your business. 

Don't worry about the POA stuff - if anything happens to one of them, the other is probably POA.  If they didn't have the presence of mind to do that - oh well.  That's their problem and *they* can figure it out *without your help.*   

If you don't want to be POA in the event one of them passes, that's fine - if you're still in contact with them, remind the surviving parent to name somebody as POA - like a FMM or that pastor.  Your dad will probably be shocked but your mom will *flip out* - because you're not groveling and you're basically saying hey, it's all your stuff and your affairs - do as you please. 

If you're not POA and you get a  call asking if you're Sidney and do you have POA, it means one of several different scenarios could be on the table:

1.  Surviving parent is unconscious and can't make medical decisions for him/herself. 

     1A - Follow up question - do you know if your parent has a DNR in place and if they do, can you bring it NOW?

      NO - the hospital can call their doctor and ask THEM to fax it to the hospital,  if a DNR even exists. 

2.  Surviving parent's competence seems to be waning and a competency test may have been flubbed.  (These calls will be made by social workers, and it's okay to BLOCK them.)

3.  Surviving parent has been declared incompetent and will be placed in a memory care unit, ASAP.

4.  Surviving parent passed on.

In all cases *DO NOTHING. *SIGN NOTHING.*  Don't even put in an appearance - just tell the caller you do NOT have POA, you don't know who does, you can't help them, and certainly there rules in place when this sort of thing happens - you can't be the only person on earth who has a parent who didn't name them POA.

That last part it is the magic part - saying that you can't be the only person on earth who has had this sort of thing happen  prompts others to *think* - because *you're right* - not everybody has somebody, especially an exceptionally long-lived parent who has survived his or her entire FOO.  (Rare - but true.)   

And there ARE contingencies put in place, that others may have to research, while you do *nothing.*   

That's right - nothing but stay out of it, and tell people you can't sign a thing, as you're not POA and you're not *committing financial suicide* by signing something that could come back to bite you on the butt, later.

Always keep in mind - some people don't want to do the *right* thing - they want to do the *easiest* thing that clears the problem from their plates, and to them, it may seem that hectoring, browbeating you and badgering you to get your buns over there and sign papers that may *ruin* your FOC is the easiest thing.   

Resist - and BLOCK.   

They may sound like they have authority - they have NONE.  That's why they're trying to make it all roll downhill and land on you. 

But...I don't think you'll have to worry about any of that until about 1.5 years after one of your parents actually does pass.  That's when things tend to go *really* wonky on Planet PD, IME.   

[Sidney37]

Thanks all again for your stories and advice.  I'm taking it one day at s time with deep breaths and exercise to try to calm the anxiety of this unknown/what will happen next current situation.

  No call from the pastor yet, but I'm expecting it any time.  I wasn't as clear as I could have been to explain why I'm fairly certain I'll get that call.   I was somewhat vague in case anyone in my family found me here.  I'm caring less and less about it as I come more Out of the FOG.  So what if they find me here.  What's the worst that could happen?

The pastor is a woman and her own mother passed away when she was a teen.  I think she might have dropped out of college to care for her, if i remember the story correctly.  The rest of her family is somewhat far away.  I've not met her, but I get the impression that she has taken on my mother and a few other older women as surrogate mothers of sorts.  She tells my parents that she a great relationship with her own mother, from what I've been told.  Who knows,  since it's my parents telling me this.  I don't think she'll understand my situation one bit.

In the mean time my DH hasn't blocked my parents on social media and apparently the snarky memes about family, avoiding unkind people, not needing drama in their lives  (lol) have continued.  It's ironic, considering I appear to be getting the silent treatment.  My DH told her when she called him (to find out why I'm mad when she hadn't done anyyyyythingggg wroooonggg) when I'd be home to call me back.  She hasn't called. 

This certainly isn't easy.  I'm taking baby steps and breathing deeply a lot.  Wow is this hard.  I have nothing at all to say to her and don't want to call because i know there will be verbal abuse on the other end, but I hate the way this makes me feel.

[Spring Butterfly]

I'm caring less and less about it as I come more Out of the FOG.  So what if they find me here.  What's the worst that could happen?

I have nothing at all to say to her and don't want to call because i know there will be verbal abuse on the other end, but I hate the way this makes me feel.

*raises hand yes to both these statements. Similar feelings here.

It got tons more easier for me the busier I got with my own life and focusing my attention where it should have been my entire life: on living mine and only mine.

Let me repeat/rephrase: it's everyone's basic human right to live their own life not worrying, fussing, agonizing over others lives. Other humans get to be part of our life but not our entire life as if our universe revolves completely around one other individual human and making sure that other human is happy. it's actually not even humanly possible to make someone else happy, that person gets to decide their own individual feelings for themselves. Not only that these other humans get to be part of our life only if we decide it is what we wish.

[Sidney37]

It's amazing how the anxiety over the VLC/NC can decrease when the PD shows their true colors.  I attempted to have a call to set clear boundaries with both uNPDm and enD the phone.  He wanted it.  I wasn't sold on it, but it was an opportunity to set the boundaries so he could see that she can't handle even the tiniest boundary.  He insisted that she could and he could fix it if I just talked to her. 

During the very brief call, he put her on the phone (he was on another handset to listen in) and she asked in a very aggressive tone why I was mad at her.  I told her I wasn't mad but frustrated over things i thought were critical that were said to me on the last few phone conversations.   I said that i don't like to talk on the phone when I am getting criticized.  I wonder t be continuing to talk to her when she criticizes me.   She insisted that she had no idea what I was talking about and wanted an example. Typically I wouldn't have given any because it would be a JADE.  My enD was aware of 2 very critical comments she made to me last month on the phone.   She was dredging up 20 and 25 year old decisions I had made about college, majors, career choices, grad school and why all of those choices were terrible and her choices for me would have been better.   He was on the phone at the time and has said since that he didn't think they were nice or ok for her to have said.  I gently said that I didn't like it when she said xxx  or xxx to me.  It felt very critical and i didn't  like it.  She denied ever saying either thing, went into a full on rage, screamed at me, used a modified swear word (she prides herself on never swearing or losing her cool), called me crazy, hung up on me and threw the phone. 

I expected a bad reaction, but she never does that in front of anyone but me, not even my enD.  It just confirmed to me what I had told him earlier in the day.  He insisted that she would be nice to me on the phone and we could just work this out if I talked to her.   Nope. 

This has gotten worse with age.  The other possibility is that she is getting dementia and doesn't really remember that she said any of these things.  I do know that  I can't talk to someone who is constantly criticizing my every decision or rages at me for just saying in the calmest tone ever that I didn't  like it when she said xxx to me.   I think we've reached NC. 

[illogical]

Have you read about The Cycle of Abuse?  It goes something like this--

Stage 1-- tensions build;  abuser abuses (may be lots of PA behavior)
Stage 2-- incident; raging; hide & lie/denial; no logic
Stage 3-- reconciliation;  abuser blame-shifts (or enabler/FM steps in and does this)
Stage 4-- "honeymoon" phase;  hoovers

Rinse, lather, repeat.

You confronted your mother and she hid & lied, denied, blame-shifted.  Your enD will likely shortly assume his "fixer" role and try to smooth things over.  The next phase might be more silent treatment (to punish you & try to bring you back in line) or the "medical emergency" we have long-anticipated.  I wouldn't be surprised if your dad told you that you had "terribly upset your mother and needed to apologize because she is headed for another breakdown".

Dementia?  Possible, but given the circumstances and the timing, I think "selective amnesia" is more likely.  I would not offer "dementia" to your enD as a possible excuse for your mother's denial.  He will take that ball and run with it, letting your mother "off the hook" for her bad behavior.

If your dad suspects your mother has dementia, HE can get your mother evaluated.  I would not discuss her medical condition or suspected medical condition(s) with him.  You will get pulled into more drama, regardless of what is really going on with her physically.

Your mother has, indeed, shown her true colors.  Your father will likely cover for her, as he has done in the past.  Time to enter The Observation Booth where you observe what is going on, take notes, but don't interact.  Be the objective scientist, not part of the experiment.   

[Sidney37]

Thanks.  I haven't read the Cycle of Abuse.  I'll add it to my Kindle, too.  The more I read (I didn't read about this the last time around a few years ago), the more I know that I am doing the right thing. 

The only reason I say dementia is that her mother and grandmother both had it and it started at a similar age.  I've noticed some other minor memory gaps and personality changes in the past 3 months.  But you are right, telling him will just give him an excuse.  It is certainly time to sit back and watch this. I'm assuming the call from pastor and medical emergency will come next. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Wow, what a journey! Of course it's not over yet, but "watching" this all happen has been a privilege, really. Thank you for sharing as you go. It's been instructive. It is kind of like watching myself going NC in many ways. I too worked up my courage for a long time to say simply, "I was hurt when you said x," only to hear back total denial. I don't know how it's possible to deny what they said, when it was clearly very calculated, but now I know that's par for PDs. That hurt, and yes, led me to NC too.

[illogical]

Here's a link to an article on how The Cycle of Abuse relates to Ns.  It's basically like what I described in my last post, but goes into detail.  The Cycle of Abuse is often written about in terms of domestic violence, but can be related to N abuse-- with a few twists-- as described:

https://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2015/05/the-narcissistic-cycle-of-abuse/

[Spring Butterfly]

Here's a quick read
https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/21/abusive-cycle

[Sidney37]

Thanks everyone.  Cordelia, I debated every time that I posted here in the past few weeks if I was asking too many question, needing too much help or just putting too much out there.   I'm glad that it was helpful to someone.  Without a current therapist, I'm just so very thankful that people here understand and have guided me though this in the past few months.  I'm not sure that I would have made the same decisions and made it to this place without the advice I got here.  It's not been easy.  It's been filled with tears and frustration.  I'm just thankful and appreciative that other people get it and are so supportive of strangers. 

[WomanInterrupted]

I think what you're seeing with your mom isn't dementia, but narcissistic injury and RAGE.  She's ANGRY and she's older, so she's got fewer filters, and more apt to just FOOOOOOOOOM all over everything and everybody, and if somebody else sees it?  So what - she has the RIGHT to behave that way!   

There comes a time in their lives when the PD really starts running the show, and as you've seen, it's NOT pretty!   It's like somebody cranking up the volume to 11 on the PD, or giving it steroids.   

I saw it happen to both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray - they wanted what they wanted, when they wanted it, and they were going to GET it, and *nothing was going to stand in their way!*

Didi was going to get that hospital bed she wanted here, and Ray was going to get me over at his, to be his on-call *slave.*   

But...I malfunctioned.  The vending machine broke.  The washing machine stopped working and no amount of kicking was going to get it working again.  I did what *I wanted* and was best for MY FOC - and not what they *expected* me to do.   

That led to *more* rage, on their parts - thankfully, they didn't tag-team me.  This happened  *one* PD at a time.  Didi wrongly thought more and more hospitalizations and slamming the phone down on me over virtually nothing would *motivate* me, and wound up dying in Hospice, instead, mad at the world; and Ray just overplayed his hand, thinking a fall would make his Visiting Nurse drag me over there, by my ear, and tell me to do my JOB.

He wound up getting declared incompetent instead - and reamed ME out, telling me *everything was all my fault* - when HE is the one who refused to use a cane or walker, and REFUSED to push the Life Alert button that was *right by his hand, the entire time!*   

Your dad  saw it in action, and may be surprised by it, but he's always going to take her side.  Fine - he picked her, he can care for her, while YOU put up more boundaries and call whenever you *feel* like calling - after that display (throwing the phone?  REALLY!?   ), I don't think I'd call for at least another few *months.*   

Get her used to the *silence* - and if you call in a few months and she behaves just as badly, I'd seriously consider NC as a kindness to *both of you* - you won't have to listen to her freak out, and she'll have nothing to freak out about.   

Something I don't think a lot of people realize is that we may actually be *triggering* them when we malfunction or put up boundaries.  They can't handle it.  They freak!  They scream, tantrum, plot revenge, figure out a way to "get even" or *make* us do what they want - and the kindest thing we can do might be to just end the relationship, so they don't get so damned worked up over nothing.

After today's debacle, I hope NC is something you'll at least *consider* - because it's only going to keep getting worse, from here on out.   

[Sidney37]

And just as expected, a post appeared on FB today that "they" (my parents) were waiting for MRI results.  I no longer follow them on Facebook, so I heard about it by text from someone else who knows what is going on between them and me.  My in-laws and other relatives apparently have been asking for hours on Facebook what is going on with no response.  This is exactly what we expected.  No phone call or text from them, just the passive aggressive post that I never would have known about without the text from someone else.  Next up I'll start getting calls from in-laws asking what is going on.  It's taking everything not to send a text and ask WTH is going on.  I'm so frustrated. 

[Call Me Cordelia]

Vaguebooking. I bet she's just on the computer watching the notifications roll in, holding herself back from posting, relishing the dramatic moment.  Facebook really was made for supply.

Have your in-laws got wise to the way your mother is yet? Most people get tired of it once they figure out how their emotions are being played with. Either way, you truthfully know nothing. Not your monkeys. That urge to contact them and REACT to her drama is exactly what your mother would want imo. So keep on malfunctioning. 

[Sidney37]

It was my enD's post.  No clue if the results they are waiting for are hers or his.  My ILs know that she stopped speaking to me for months several years ago, but we haven't dragged them into any of it.  They likely wouldn't understand this at all.  The behavior is so foreign to them and their family, they just wouldn't understand. 

[WomanInterrupted]

Whatever you do, *don't* ask what's going on with the MRI.  That's what they *want* - and you're bound to get nothing but crickets as a response.   

UnBPD Didi was big on that, too - she'd wail that they think she has caaaaaaaaancer, again, some more, and are sending her for more tests - mind you, "tests" could be *routine screenings* - the things we all go through at our annual physicals - but  Didi would milk them for *maximum* dramatics!   

Or they'd be running other tests, in a hospital - she'd be remarkably closed-mouthed  other than to tell me there were mysterious "tests" for her caaaaaaancer.   

I never took the bait.  A week or so later, she might try calling me, or it might be my scheduled time to call her, and I'd ask how the test results came out.  She'd very quietly say it's not cancer, but THEN dramatically wail that they *still don't know what's wrong with her, and I HAVE to do something about it!*   

Like...what, exactly?  I'm not a doctor.  I'm not a magician.  I don't have Harry Potter on speed dial.  There is *absolutely* nothing I can do other than *protect myself by staying as far away as possible from the farce.* 

It got to the point I was saying to my DH, with an aw-shucks look and a snap of my fingers, "Still not cancer..." - because she'd gotten to the point she was saying it *every other day* - trying to get me over there.   

And I wasn't having it.  I stopped asking about test results.  I stopped asking about anything, period.  I started screening my calls and letting the machine pick up *everything.*  I honestly didn't want to hear it, because she'd burned me out on even pretending to care.

One day, Didi made the mistake of telling me there were about 50 people in her room, "trying to get her back" - forgetting that I knew she had a DNR in place.   

That was when I decided I was pretty much over it all - she could have all the drama and chaos she wanted, but I was OUT -  that's when she asked me what to do about end of life issues.  I got very quiet and didn't say anything.  She didn't say anything.  Finally I said, "are you serious?" 

She said, "Only you can answer that question." 

I told her she was out of luck, because I had no answers to give her - it's her life.  She has to make the call - and she slammed the phone down on me. 

I don't know if your mom will take it to this extreme (I hope not, for your sanity!    ), but everything is a *mystery.*  It's a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma.  A SEEEEEEEEEEECRET!   There are shrouds and veils everywhere, and not one CLEAR piece of information to be found - only enough leaked info to make sure you're on your toes and *concerned* about what's going on.

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned.   That's what hospitals and doctors are for and it's not up to you to call and try to pump information out of them.  If they want to share, they'll share - and if they want to keep on being mysterious and vague, that's up to them.  It doesn't mean you have to respond to it. 

Anybody calls you or messages you on FB, to ask what's going on, tell them you have the same information they have, and that's all you know - then change the subject.

You'll be glad you did.   

[illogical]

...I don't know if your mom will take it to this extreme (I hope not, for your sanity!    ), but everything is a *mystery.*  It's a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma.  A SEEEEEEEEEEECRET!   There are shrouds and veils everywhere, and not one CLEAR piece of information to be found - only enough leaked info to make sure you're on your toes and *concerned* about what's going on.

So true!

A subscribing to the "Information is Power" mantra.  As Call Me Cordelia posted, a reaction to this is what your parents want.  I wouldn't give them the satisfaction. 

Some possible replies to FMs/busybodies who ask "What's going on?"--

"They haven't shared that information."
"I appreciate your concern."
"Thanks for asking."

All replies followed by nothing else on the subject.  No JADEing, no implied interest, or surprise, or shock or any reaction whatsoever here. 

This withholding of information is more punishment your mother is lobbing your way.  She hasn't gotten the reaction she wanted from The Silent Treatment, so she's trying this tactic.  She can tell others that "she hasn't heard a word from Sydney in weeks" or something else that implies you are the bad, uncaring daughter.  I would be prepared for smearing you (to family/friends) as well as a phone call from your dad to you or DH. 

Stand fast and keep lobbing that ball back in their court!

[Sidney37]

Thanks Illogical.  I knew we'd end up at this point.  Only my husband and my best friend from school even know I saw the post.  I'm avoiding Facebook quite a bit these days. 

Now that I've slept, I see how controlling they are.  He posted 12+ hours ago with all of these distant relatives and my in-laws posting asking what's wrong and that they will pray with no response from my parents.  I guess they could have sent private messages in response, but this information controlling is just another tactic. It's manipulative.  Wow.  In the fog, I never would have seen it.   If I call, I'll get the , "if you were talking to us you'd know" answer. 

He's called me 3 or 4 times in secret in the past month because the has "forbidden" him to talk to me.     I don't need this anxiety.  As soon as I'm calm they do something to stir me up again.   

[Sidney37]

Just wondering if the reaction from me should be different if it's an actual serious medical issue?   I'm not going to call them, but I looked at the Facebook comments and a very kind lady who I know from home posted and it was clear that she knew additional info about the situation.   There was something about what she said that made it clear that it might be very serious.  Of course he's an adult and could call me if he actually wanted to and tell me that he was having tests. He had mentioned some symptoms when I saw him last (before the escalation of her drama) that had me concerned.  I suggested he get it checked out,  How do you deal with an actual medical issue with the enabler when the PD is giving you the silent treatment?