What About the Kids?

[gcj07a]

It's been awhile since I've been around these parts, but Christmas is coming and so, of course, that means I have to deal with Ursula's crap. Ursula reached out to DW because she wants to get together next week to do a little Christmas thing with our girls. The current boundaries are that a) Ursula is not to contact me and b) she can only be around the grandkids if DW is present. But now, at the prospect of Ursula coming to my house to spend time with my daughters and wife while I am away traveling, I am having second thoughts:

a) I feel "rejected" or "discarded" at the thought of Ursula and the grandkids having a great time with me gone. It makes me feel like I am the one with the problem. Am I crazy for feeling this way?

b) I feel like, as watchful as I know DW will be, there will still be opportunities for Ursula to get her affection seeking claws into my daughters. I honestly feel like DW doesn't appreciate how tricky and manipulative Ursula can be. This is not because she doesn't want to, but because she (fortunately) did not grow up with Ursula for a mom. Am I being controlling by thinking I'm the only one who can protect my daughters?

Help! And thanks!

[Fiasco]

Is Ursula is your mom? May I ask what you and your wife decided the benefit to having contact between her and your kids is? What is the goal?

[gcj07a]

Yes, she is my unBPmom.

DW decided (and I have consented for now) that there is no use to burning bridges unless you have to. She feels like VLC with her and the girls (a few hours every few months) is enough of a boundary.


(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/7/72/Profile_-_Ursula.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20190312053911)

[Fiasco]

Ok that makes sense, thanks. It's a hard position to be in, I wish I had some helpful advice for you. I don't think you're out of line feeling like you're the only one who understands how she can be, and if my BPDm were in a position to be having fun with my family without me I'd be seeing red too.

[appaloosa]

I wouldn't like it if my PD parent came to spend time with my spouse and kids while I was away either.If you're feeling uncomfortable with it--and it sounds like you are--I wouldn't allow Ursula to come. Spending time with a PD grandparent isn't something that is going to benefit the kids, imo. Sorry you have to deal with that situation.

[PeanutButter]

This is a very normal emotional response IME. I totally agree that maybe changeing your mind and/or create a new boundary if you are not comfortable with this now that you have though more about it.

[M0009803]

I don't think this is a good idea.

UPDMs can be exceedingly manipulative and charming when they want to be.   Since your wife has not dealt with an abusive family setting, it is likely she would not see this (this is not a bad mark on her its just what usually ends up happening) Over time, you could end up with your children being influenced by your mother, and potentially turning them against you.  In my experience, it doesnt take much to tweak how kids see things if you are a manipulative person.

Her visiting your house is a decision both yourself and your wife need to take.  If you are not comfortable with this you can tell your wife no, and arrange a different venue.

This is still your choice to make.

[Maisey]

There were (rare) times when my children were small and I didn't understand what we were dealing with, that my H would question or speak up about his mother's interactions with our children. I disregarded his concerns as petty, but now see that was a huge error on my part. They were relatively small things, in my opinion ,at that moment in time.

I never imagined what it all was about, actually, and how all those "petty" things could amount to the pain and misery we have been subjected to.

I have recently had to break  NC with MIL in order to reinforce boundaries. It wasn't going to happen if left up to H to handle, as he avoids any contact with her.

So I can see  how your wife is trying to buffer the situation, find a middle ground, and please your mother. The part that is missing is that she doesn't understand how it never ends and it doesn't matter who it is, if your mom needs to make someone miserable, everyone is fair game. Including the grandchildren.

You may need to resume some small amount of contact with your mom in order to safe guard your children while she is visiting with them.  if you are the only one strictly concerned with the contact, you need to handle it yourself.

M.

[NumbLotus]

I agree with what Maisey said. My H has been explaining the issues with his mother since the beginning. While I feel I supported him, I did not always or fully understand the issues. Some things felt minor and it took a long time to see how they were connected to larger things. She will not know everything to look out for, even if you spend days trying to explain it.

Also, though it wasn't my mother, I was just as susceptible to her tactics. I was and am afraid to set her off. I have let her get her way on some (many?) things just to keep the peace. So if your wife is assuming she is immune, that is likely not the case. FOG works on most people - that's why PDs use it.

I could even see myself in a position where I promised my H I'd not allow XYZ, that MIL ended up steamrolling right over me, and in confusion, shame, and fear I didn't tell H everything that happened and just tried to paper it over to avoid a giant blowup. And I consider myself a very honest person, but confusion can happen and be upsetting.

DW decided (and I have consented for now) that there is no use to burning bridges unless you have to. She feels like VLC with her and the girls (a few hours every few months) is enough of a boundary.

Just want to point out your wording - your wife feels okay but not you? It's okay for you to make this call since you are the one whi knows.

I don't know the reason behind Low Contact rather than No Contact, but you might consider the reasoning closely to ensure it's coming from a healthy place and not from Fear, Obligation, or Guilt.

[gcj07a]

Thanks everyone! Lots to think about. I really, really appreciate this community.

[hibiscus]

I don't want to freak you out, but  if Ursula happens to have NPD in addition to BPD, she might try to mess up your marriage with your wife as well (because if your marriage is ruined, Ursula will get you back, or at  least that's what she likely believes).  I can totally understand your uneasiness.  I even suspect that the feeling of being rejected and excluded is precisely what Ursula intends you to feel.  I may be going out on a limb here, but what you've described sounds like standard PD manipulation.

You're not being controlling.  You have the right to decide who is allowed in your house and near your children.  It would be good if you could discuss your concerns with your wife one more time.  For your own health and well-being,  you've decided to go NC with Ursula.  It's not possible for you to have NC with Ursula while your wife and children have VLC.  NC means NC.  You're not supposed to get any sort of communication from Ursula.  This is not possible if your wife and children are hanging out with her.  The anxiety you're feeling now is a direct consequence of the fact that you are, as of now, not NC but VLC with Ursula.  Frankly, I have to say that your wife needs to respect your decision here and stop insisting on VLC.  It's not your wife's relationship with her mother you're interfering with; it's her relationship with your mother.   She has to decide which relationship is more important to her: her relationship with you, or her relationship with Ursula.   She can't have a relationship with Ursula without hurting you.  That is a simple, if unfortunate, fact.

On the issue of control, let me mention that children of narcissists sometimes have OCPD (not OCD, but OCPD, which is another term for perfectionism).  A book I've read recently is "Too Perfect" by Allan Mallinger.  It helped me to recognize the ways in which I am controlling, the ways in which I am not  controlling, and the reasons why I need this feeling of control.  It might help you as well.

[Associate of Daniel]

This is a tricky one.

My situation is that my uNPD exH has essentially gone nc with his parents in the last 2 to 3 years.

We have a son (13) who for the first 10/11 years of his life frequently saw them (his uNPD father's parents) and a loving relationship between them was established.

His uNPD father and his uNPD smum have now alleged that, based on stuff that may or may not have happened (who knows with pds and their rewritten history) when uNPD exH was young, children are not safe around his parents.

Ds and I have never witnessed anything unsafe.  I've known them for 20 years and, because of the abuse I receive at the hands of uNPD exH and his uNPD wife, and because I work with children, a number of whom have not so great family lives, I'm fairly attuned to abusive behaviours.

So I have a very confused and sad young teenager on my hands, who wants to see his grandparents but also doesn't want to rock the boat with his uNPD father.

I describe all of this to say that I can identify with your wife, I think.  She may be feeling very caught in the middle.

I'm not sure of how old your children are and I don't know how much you have told her of the abuse you have suffered.

Your wife may be struggling with guilt - feeling she's betraying and not supporting you by allowing contact between the children and your mum, and feeling she's doing the wrong thing by the children by not allowing contact, and feeling bad for your mum as well.

She's in a tough spot and maybe the current arrangement is the best one for her at the moment. And it might also be the best one for the children. And it might also be the best one for you.

However, abuse is an extremely complex thing to manage relationships around. Often the best arrangement still has doubts and worries attached.

I hope I have not offended you. I certainly don't mean to diminish your own experiences or decisions.

AOD

[MamaDryad]

These are my thoughts and what works for me; I get fired up about this topic, so it may sound more prescriptive than it's meant to be. Take what's useful and leave the rest.

In my family, we have a couple of guidelines that are relevant here. One is that people who don't have a healthy relationship with BOTH parents don't get to be around the kid. That goes double for manipulative, "tricky" people who are likely to drip poison in the kid's ear about their parent.

The other is that each parent gets final say* on the boundaries for their side of the extended family. Your wife can make the decisions about her parents' role in the kids' lives, but YOU get to make the decisions about your parents.
* With a veto option in cases of potential abuse or neglect, which can only ever turn a yes to a no, not vice versa.

This is partly because, especially if you grew up with a PD parent, part of healing is feeling empowered to set boundaries for the family you've created. It's also, as you mention in your post, because after a lifetime of emotional abuse, you are better equipped to identify subtle manipulation tactics and other bad behavior than someone who didn't grow up with her as a parent.

Also, I see the argument a lot that it's somehow unfair to the kids not to let them have a relationship with all living grandparents. But the thing is that bad parents don't turn into good grandparents, at least not without a tremendous amount of accountability and work. They can sometimes fake it for a while, because the grandparent role is lower contact and less stressful, but it always comes out eventually. Usually when the kid(s) reach the age of reason, where they can call out bad behavior and lies and are no longer a source of uncritical affection and ego supply. I don't know how old your kids are, but that day will come if it hasn't already.

A subconscious belief that underlies that argument is that there was something wrong with you that made her treat you that way. Even if you know better intellectually, some wounded child part of you still probably believes that. The reasoning goes that since you know your daughters are good, they will be safe. But you were good too! I know from experience that this belief is tough to root out with logic, but it's worth working on.

And finally, your feelings matter too. Even if your wife feels strongly that your daughters deserve to have contact with their (at best neutral and more likely awful) grandmother, the fact that the idea causes you pain should be enough.

[footprint]

Back when I was VLC years ago and thought that I shouldn't burn bridges even though NPD parents were relentless and cruel with me, in part because I had young kids, I read an article written by another SG mom. That woman had older children and the story she told was chilling enough for me to see the light. In her case, the NPD grandmother had love bombed her kids and then turned them against  her.

I so feared this sort of a result and could imagine it happening to me too since my NPD parents are manipulative and have always been out to destroy that which brings happiness to me. So I never let them see my kids again (they were 2 and 4 at the time) and was them full NC with NPD parents by the time the kids were about 5 and 7 (they're now 8 and 10).

I would be very wary of having your PD involved at all with your children, all the more since you're NC and not there t monitor what she's saying and doing.

Toxic bridges need to be torched.

footprint

[gcj07a]

Thanks MamaDryad. Those rules sound right up my alley. And thanks footprint. I appreciate the feedback! DW and I are still discussing this. And we have had one and may have more discussions about it in session with my therapist (he is supportive of my NC).

[gcj07a]

Thanks again for the replies. I went ahead and allowed Ursula to come over for a "Christmas" with DW and the grandkids. I was out doing other things. This happened a few days before Christmas. Anyhow, after more discussions and after reflecting on the poor quality of the visit, DW is down with going NC for the whole family with Ursula. Thanks again!

[Fiasco]

Wow, that was either one heck of a visit or your wife is great at listening to you and supporting you! I love that you're heading into a new year on the same page.

[gcj07a]

I think both things are true. I'm very excited to go into 2020 in a much healthier way and on the same page. Thanks!