I Don't Think This Is Working Out

[HindSightIs2020]

As time goes on, it seems more and more like they're really never going to accept me as a person. They always have a way of taking issue with the way that I do things, try to change me, and behave in ways that very seriously cross the line. And do not care. There have been times where I've thought that maybe things were getting better, but as more time passes, I see more and more that makes me think that this is not the case. What got me on the idea that they possibly "came around" was that I did manage to stand my ground somewhat a couple of years back. My "mom" had become so "uncomfortable" with me over a hairstyle I had that she didn't like that she said that she wanted me to no longer be a part of her life, but I continued to wear it the same way without giving in because of her antics. And she did ultimately back off, finally. But only after I endured an entire summer of torment and harassment. And what got her to back off completely was me saying I was going to leave if they kept it up.

They did not back off easily, that's for sure. But they did seem to eventually back off. Which gave me hope that things had gone in a better direction. Also, they did appear to take a supportive approach when it came to my career goals. So, for a while, things were actually going quite well with them overall. And I had hope that perhaps this would be the beginning of something better. But then I began to notice that there's a certain resentment and anger towards me that comes to the surface every now and then. It kind of feels like the image of me as the villain and the horrible troublemaker just became so etched into their brain and psyche that it'll never fully go away. Things will go well for very long stretches of time. By very long I'm talking 2-3 months and sometimes more. During this time, things will often seem to be going pretty well. But then time and time again, there's some sort of major incident.

The latest incident goes back to a very longstanding issue, which I've dealt with from them for my entire life. My "mom" thinks that I "talk too loud", and they'll frequently try to correct me. This is one of the ways in which they've sought to "fix" me and have looked at me like there's something wrong with me. In their minds, my voice was looked at as something seriously aberrant and told that it would drive people away. I was even once told that I "talk so loud" that she couldn't even see me having a job unless I was "alone working with computers". However, as I've gotten older, I'm thinking that the whole issue might actually be entirely fabricated. Because I asked my friends if I had a tendency to "talk loudly", and they said that I didn't. And seemed perplexed as to why she would keep saying that. Last night, my "mom" yet again tried to "correct" me by telling me that I was "talking too loud", and I didn't simply go along with it right away. I got irritated with her, as I often do.

And in response to that, she said that "this has been going on for more than 10 years", how it hasn't changed, etc. And I just got irritated and said "Why should I have to lower my voice and change my voice, there's nothing wrong with it" or something along those lines. And her response to that was to absolutely flip. She started saying that she wasn't going to sleep well at night, that all this "trouble" that I was making caused her to feel nauseous, and saying that she was going right up to bed instead of watching TV with me and my "dad" like usual. And of course, he got involved too, saying that I "made trouble" and joining in. Finally, my "mom" did actually say that she would not tell me to "lower my voice" again in the future. But I don't think I really got anywhere. Because she said "that still doesn't fix the problem for you". And that she "reserves the right to remove herself if she feels like it's getting uncomfortable".

If they're unable and unwilling to accept something as simple as my own voice and responded to me the way that they did last night, there's obviously just going to be trouble at every corner. Because things will constantly be making them "uncomfortable", they'll constantly say that I need to change this, change that, on and on and on. So, given this, I just can't see it working out for me to make my own decisions and do things my own way with them still being a part of my life. It just really does not seem like it would work, and it seems like it's just going to be one thing after another if I'm still in contact with these people. Plus, I find this whole issue of them feeling that my voice makes them "uncomfortable" absolutely sick honestly. Giving them a chance doesn't seem very worth it at this point. Unless something unexpected happens, I think I should seriously start thinking about getting the hell out of here and cutting contact as opposed to trying to "stay on good terms" with them. Or give them a chance.

If they really did hold true to their promise to not continue telling me to "lower my voice" and weren't simply avoiding/reducing their interactions with me because the way I talk "makes them uncomfortable" (or having an attitude because I didn't obey them), I'd feel like keeping them in my life was worth a chance. Because I'd feel like they did actually listen to me and consider my wishes and perspective on this. I doubt that there will be a resolve like this though. This is just that last flicker of hope that I have, that perhaps I'll see that there has been some functional resolve on this. But that flicker of hope will probably be ripped right away from me within moments of speaking to them. Honestly, I'm probably looking at another day of bullshit with them going after me about how I "made trouble" and continuing to be abusive and hostile in various ways. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they start doubling down more on the whole "lower your voice" thing after this. Whatever they do, I'm not even going to engage with it. Unless there is some sort of resolve (which I'm not expecting), I'll need to avoid them as much as possible and start planning my escape.

[Thru the Rain]

What a difficult situation! 

I think you made a very reasonable effort to confirm with others whether you are too loud, and based on more neutral feedback, you can be assured your voice is just fine. 

I wonder if there's another, deeper message here. A natural, normal path as we get older is to individuate from our parents, become more independent, make our own way in the world. Non-pd parents celebrate this time for their children, but PD parents can be deeply threatened when their children become independent adults.

So I wonder if they are saying (and thinking) your voice is too "loud", but what they are really upset about is that you use your voice to say things they don't like - things that demonstrate you're no longer a child and no longer in their control. You mentioned their claim that your voice makes them "uncomfortable". I think their discomfort may really be that you are a separate individual with your own thoughts and plans and actions. I can see the parallel to complaining about your hair - wanting to control you and keep you at a child's level.

I would bet they aren't even conscious of where the discomfort comes from.

I skimmed some of your previous posts and I see that you have moved back in with your parents. For your own peace of mind, you may want to consider planning to move out. Even a roommate situation might be more healthy than what you are encountering with your parents.

[TwentyTwenty]

Sorry you are going through this..

Do they accept that you're an adult? Many family schisms have a root cause in 2 opposing truths.. One of which is actually false.

Parents that aren't able to accept that their child is now an adult have not been able to accept that a known truth in their lives (they have a child that needs their guidance, correction and discipline) has CHANGED. For whatever reason, and there are many, the parent cannot cope with and accept that the old truth has evaporated. Empty nest syndrome, power trip, abuse of a victim, whatever.. they are unwilling to accept that the truth they once held to for years and years is no longer a truth..

The NEW truth is that you are an adult, and capable of making your own decisions about how to use your voice, how loud or quietly you speak, and frankly anything else that YOU as an adult decide..

IF your parents are able to accept this new truth, then things have a potential to go well..

If not, then you may have to consider how much abuse and assault you are willing to take, and how much damage it may do to your well being.

I hope the best for you!

[FromTheSwamp]

I have had a couple of unrelated people over the years tell me I have a "weird laugh".  It was terribly upsetting both times, and served no purpose except to make me self-conscious.  Which maybe was what they were aiming for?  In any case, it's not kind to point something out that the person is unable to change. 

I'm guessing I do have a "weird laugh", unlike your situation where your friends have assured you your voice is at normal volume.  But I do wonder what your parents motivation is in telling you this.  To make you afraid to talk?  To make you self-conscious?  To just generally make you feel bad?  Because really, their insistence on making your voice, of all things, to be something that is somehow about them, is shockingly rude and self-centered. 

Thank you from the rest of us for not being a mumbler. 

[Wednesday]

Honestly, it's like telling someone their feet are too big or their eyes are too blue.  I agree it serves no purpose other than to make you self conscious... of expressing yourself no less.  I wonder how she would accept a similar criticism...
That your friends disagreed over her description of your volume is very telling.  My NM also made remarks to me over things I couldn't control: my smile, my chin, the way I would sit and walk...  They do this to undermine our self confidence. 

[freedom77]

I agree with everyone else in that I do not believe it's the actual volume of your voice, but the fact that you have a voice and express yourself and defend yourself. This is why it makes them uncomfortable. Same as with the hairstyle, they are not comfortable with your individuality and your unwillingness to conform to what they want: a silent, obedient, undifferentiated extension of themselves.

PD parents have a very difficult, if not impossible task of accepting that their children are unique individuals separate from them. They often see their children as extensions of themselves, like a limb, and as such they feel ownership over us, and become indignant with rage when we attempt to separate from them. It's like a betrayal to them.

I don't know how old you are, but you sound like you might be a young adult, with no children of your own. Nothing tying you down or making you dependent on these people. Take it from me, as a middle aged woman who was abused for far longer than I needed to tolerate...I would move out, and move on.

You have to decide the level of contact you are comfortable with that results in the least amount of discomfort to you. For many of us, on this forum or not, the only level that results in no abuse, is no contact. Again, this is something you have to evaluate and decided for yourself.

I went NC a couple times in my 20s and God do I wish I had never gone back on it. Whatever contact level you decide is right for you, take my advice and STICK TO IT. Don't go back on it. These people do not change.

Like you I had flashes and glimmers of hope at times when it seemed my BPD/N mother was behaving better, or that she had changed. But she hadn't. She only appeared to because it benefited her at the time, there was something she was getting out of the deal if she was on good behavior. Inside though she was still the same, and the abuse and rages eventually would start up again.

She's now in her later 60s and I'm almost 43, and she's just as nuts and controlling and rageful and abusive as she was in her 20s and 30s...they don't ever really change.

They are the ones with the problems, not you. I'd move out if I were you, and find your own peace and joy in the world, and don't let them ruin it. And don't let them trick you into believing they've changed once they realize how good you're doing.

PDs can't stand to see us happy without them. My mother would catch wind that I was doing well, and she'd set out to ruin it, time and again...when I was younger I was more easily deceived. She would approach me all smiles, and pretending to act normal to trick me back into contact, only to revert back to her usual abusive self once she had me where she wanted me.

Do understand that you are being abused. Even if you're not being punched or kicked, you are being abused. Admonishing you for your hairstyle, criticizing your voice...trying to gaslight you into believing you talk too loud to make you self conscious so perhaps you won't express yourself anymore. Trying to trick you into believing that your role in life is to appease them, and not make them uncomfortable as you seek individuality in your life. That is abuse. It's mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual abuse that has everlasting effects.

Separate yourself from that.

[HindSightIs2020]

A bit of an update here. As others have pointed out, I can say with 100% certainty that this whole "you talk too loud" definitely has a history of being part of a larger pattern of them tearing down my confidence and get me to defer to them, with absolutely no concern or care about how I would be affected by basically being brainwashed into thinking that I have something wrong with me. However, there have been times that they've commented about other people in the family being "loud" (e.g. they've often talked about how my uncle is "very loud" and my "mom" has told my brother and "dad" that they were talking "too loud" in the moment), so it wasn't just me that this has been said about. Nor has it just been people they didn't like or were trying to control.

What made it different for me is that my "mom" often used to say things about my voice having a certain quality that somehow makes it worse than other people if I talk loudly, that she can't deal with it, that it's "harsh on the ears", etc. And the other difference is that she would try to drive home the point that it's this huge problem for me, that I'm "going to drive people away", etc. It just fit right into the whole pattern. And beyond that, they'd just cut me off mid-sentence and tell me "lower your voice", despite me having said numerous times not to interrupt me with that. This time I just said right out that there's nothing wrong with my voice, and that anyone could be "too loud" in the moment (in her mind) and that it isn't anything different for me.  Surprisingly, when I said this she actually agreed this time around. And said something about "well why would it be different for you, that'd be pretty strange if it were" or something like that.

Still, they didn't agree not to say anything, but I did ask if they would not keep interrupting me to say this. Which again, surprisingly my "mom" actually agreed to. And thus far, has kept her promise of waiting until I'm done with what I was saying first and only said it once or twice since then. And surprisingly, thus far kept her word about not just interrupting and bowling me over to say that. In the past, when I'd say to not interrupt me with this, all I got was refusal and "But you talk all the time" (because it used to include that I "talk too much" in addition to being "too loud").

However, I'm not jumping for joy thinking I had some sort of mini-breakthrough. Nor do I even think that this had anything to do with them taking my perspective into account at all. It probably didn't and was just a matter of them not feeling like it was the right opportunity to send the old "there's something wrong with you and you need our guidance" messages. But when they feel that the opportunity has presented itself, I'd expect them to be right back to their old ways of sending their old "there's something wrong with you" messages, that I need their guidance, am failing to benefit from their "wisdom", etc. Because as Freedom77 said, it's close to if not impossible for these types of people to actually change for the better.

[Maxtrem]

First of all I would like to congratulate you! You seem to have managed to keep your identity (your true self) despite attempts at manipulation and guilt. Many of us (including me) have adapted to soothe the parent with a personality disorder by conforming to their every expectation. This has killed my true self and I am looking for it now. Furthermore, your parents supporting your career choice is a choice they love and approve of. If you would have chosen a job they didn't like, they probably would never have supported you.

Good luck and congratulation for being strong!