Out of the FOG

I grabbed an opportunity I saw, I booked a night away with the girls and just went. We spend almost 2 full days on our own with one night at a hotel. What an amazing experience it was, probably my best two days in years. STBX (uBPD/NPDw) would not come even if she was invited, and yes she complained and complained but I still went. 2 days, not a single fight between the girls, they normally fight constantly, the laughed, I laughed, we just had a blast. Little things that always starts a big argument didn't, the PD wasn't with us to fuel it. We had our little disagreements, but they were over with in within a minute as no one wanted to carry it on. I honestly not seen my girls so happy together for years if ever.

I suppose I don't need to tell you that as soon as we came back home it all went sour again. Girls in tantrums, screaming, arguing and the rest.

Was this the last thing I needed to really see that I am so doing the right thing to proceed with the divorce? I think it might be.

FOG! I am leaving you behind!

Hurray for you and your children!

Yay.  I am so glad you had a good time with the girls and enjoyed the break.  Sounds like everyone enjoyed it.   :D

I'm so glad to hear that you all had such a good time away together.

:party: :woot: :worship: :yahoo: :yourock: :chickendance: :elephant: :drinks: :fireworks: :banana: :cheers: :banaaana: :thewave: :udaman: :woohoo:

Yes, that's just how it's done, EM.

And you're documenting, taking notes, sending e mails to your attorney updating her about the children's wellbeing and urgency for separating and providing a safe place to land and heal for all 3 of you.

You're updating her on the T's and asking for referrals for crisis management Ts available in your area she might know about.

Well done.  I have 2 dd's with Pos Covid tests. One lost her voice and is really miserable.  The other feels like she had her flu vaccine again. 

You keep heading towards the exit,EM.  Don't stop.  Don't get talked out of it or off course an inch.  YOU be the one who won't budge for a change.  It looks good on you; )

Way to go EM!!  So glad you proactively did this for yourself and your children!  Cheers to you!  :applause:

SoT

The change in GC since coming home really shows how much I need to get this done. All she cares about is to please her mum and to shout at me to defend STBX. STBX plays her game, she really doesn't get it, but the way she plays it she is making me more and more repulsed by her. Now she decided we all were going to go out for a meal as a family, I said no thanks and she told the girls I don't want to do things as a family which made GC start swearing at me calling me selfish. I have no interest in playing happy family with someone I am going through a divorce with, a potentially ugly one, and especially with someone I have blamed for domestic abuse and not even got a tiny little apology from. Why would I want to spend any more time than absolute necessary with my abuser?

In ways I am glad I am still at home as I will need access to lots of paperwork I didn't know I needed, oh I probably could do without, but it will make things easier if I can access it. My solicitor asked me how I coped at home and if I was planning to move out soon, it sounds like we are soon getting to a stage where I can leave without causing any issues going forward. All financial disclosures and wishes for what happens to the family home will need to be put in writing within a couple of weeks, I think that might be the point. I can manage 2 more weeks (if not I can always have an emergency work trip coming up).

Thank you all for all your support. I am still buzzing for how amazing the weekend with the girls was, I know that is how they are with no PD interference.

Great work, EM!  :applause:
IME, it took some time for the children to settle into their new normal, but it has certainly been worth the extraordinary effort it took to get here.  They may have some up and down days for a long time to come, and that's OK.  Even though co-parenting with a PD individual is no walk in the park, it's infinitely better than living in the same house every day with one. You're making really brave and bold moves for yourself and your children! Great work in keeping your eye on the prize!

Well done on a great two days!

Massive setback, it looks like I will have to do this without any support from a therapist. Called them up to see where in the queue I am, the 2 months have suddenly become "we don't know but probably 6 months at least". Hopefully I have enough strength to get through this anyway, I am Out of the FOG (as much as I can), I can see her for what she is and I can see my end goal - Peace for me and the girls.

Oh well, I just need to buckle up!

Oh, yesterday she came up with another gem. She told SG off for having eaten in the lounge when she was out. SG replied, but you eat in the lounge. STBX replied, yes I do but it's my lounge. You have your own play room and dad has his office. The lounge is mine and only mine, but any of you can visit me in the lounge but you have to follow my rules.....  :aaauuugh:

Can you afford a private therapist?

It's appalling that you have to wait so long for support. I know what it's like.

You could contact your local carers centre. They should have a mental health carers support worker whom you could talk to.

They may also have a mental health carers support group that you could join.

You could also contact the local branch of a mental health charity for free support. They may have support  groups where carers, service users and ex-service users meet together.

Some of the best support I received was from ex mental health service users. They were experts by experience rather than mental health professionals who are experts by training.

It's good to talk with others. I know I needed to and still do.

There are men only mental health support groups that you may like to contact for support.

You are not alone.

You are modelling healthy behaviour for your children to follow by remaining calm and setting firm boundaries.

You could join the Frazzled Café online via Zoom. They offer FREE emotional support groups every day of the week. Anyone over 18 years of age can join from anywhere in the world. They are based in the UK and have meetings at different times during the day.

The Frazzled Café's slogan is

"It's OK to not be OK."

They are not a counselling service but a place where people can talk about their feelings in a non judgemental supportive group.

You don't have to talk if you don't want to. You can just listen.

They begin and end each session with a short Mindfulness guided meditation.

They also facilitate FREE Mindfulness meditation only sessions via Zoom several times each week where participants just listen.

I hope this is of help you. You need all the support that you can get.

https://www.frazzledcafe.org/

Thanks for your advice, I will look that up. I will also look into my health insurance to see what is covered, I wanted to try to avoid it to not have the premium skyrocket (I have made a few other claims over the last years). At the moment I feel quite string and confident though, I can't see anything changing my mind regarding a divorce, but maybe a T would help with my sanity. However I am worried a T could make things worse if I get the wrong one (have read about bad ones here on Out of the FOG). But at the moment, it's just about hanging in there and just do whatever the solicitor tells me to do and keep as low contact with STBX as possible.

Please don't be put off seeking help by other people's experiences of therapists on the forum. There are some very good ones. You would need to find a therapist who specialises in trauma.

If a therapist isn't the right fit for you you can always go elsewhere and find another one.

You can find a qualified online therapist for yourself here at Better Help

https://www.betterhelp.com

Here are some resources that you may find of use to you. I have found them all very helpful to me over many years. I keep watching them on YouTube to keep me on track and to remind myself what I have experienced for decades.

The more we educate ourselves about Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome the better we are able to cope.

Ross Rosenberg

https://www.selfloverecovery.com/

YouTube
https://youtube.com/c/RossRosenberg


Dr Ramani

YouTube
https://youtube.com/c/DoctorRamani


Kris Godinez

YouTube
We Need To Talk with Kris Godinez

https://youtube.com/channel/UCHk_36kn2zDnVL-d23tE6bg


Dr Les Carter

https://survivingnarcissism.tv/

YouTube
https://youtube.com/c/SurvivingNarcissism

Thank you Guitarman, I have been watching youtube videos alot over the last year(s). But  it was really really good to watch Dr Les Carter again, especially as he had a lot of new content and a lot that was very good for the stage I am in now. The problem is that I spent so much time watching it so I didn't complete all work tasks I had for today! But, I have told myself that my healing is worth more than anything else so I have to prioritise, and therefor the healing comes first.

STBX is really at crazy making at the moment, yesterday she had a complete breakdown and today it looks like she is going that way as well. I keep to myself, but she invites herself to keep talking at me and declaring her love for me and telling me off for not just accepting her love. My head is about to explode, I feel repulsed by her, I just want to throw up because of all her lies and fake words.

If finding a therapist is proving tricky, there are also plenty of coaches who have experience helping people separate from PDs, and they can help you. It's not therapy, but it can be helpful. I'm seeing a coach (via FaceTime) who specializes in dealing with bullies and bullying situations, and I chose him because I like his no-nonsense approach and, if you think about it, bullies are as toxic and emotionally manipulative as PDs....

The Little Shaman (her YouTube channel is quite good) also does coaching.

I am not sure I need a therapist. I feel like I am out on the other side, I feel like I just woken up from a nightmare.

I am going to write a long post about this as I am not sure it should be buried in another thread. But.....

She has today declared her love for me, telling me all she wants to do is to show me how much she loves me. She has warned me if I continue this, not sure really what she warned me for but she sounded angry, Screamed and swore at GC for making life difficult for her (GC swore at me repeated her own words).

I used to love her, she was the love of my life, but now I just feel repulsed by her. I can't wait to have her out of my life.

Tonight I watched the Tinder Swindler on Netflix, fuck me that is a serious Narc, but everything he did reminded me about STBX. I almost felt the girls he swindled were lucky to only have lost the money they lost and a short time of their life. I have lost close to 20 years, over this time I can only imagine how much money as STBX has not been working for the last 10 years. I am angry, I am furious, I am tired, I am fed up, I just have had enough. Is this normal? I think it must be.

Sorry for rambling on but a lot of emotions came on after watching this documentary.

It looks like STBX is giving me 2 options, either I drop the divorce and we stay as now, or else she will make my life miserable and take me down. The choice isn't very difficult, she would take me down and make my life miserable anyway after I dropped the divorce. With this in mind, I will push for everything, she will so I have to. I am not going to give her one inch unless she suddenly agree to everything. To get through this I will have to fight using my brain, leave all emotions somewhere else, to be fair I don't really have much emotions around her anymore and I know what she is capable of. She is 10000% a vulnerable/covert NPD, even if she got the house, all the money and full custody, she would still be the victim and I would be made to feel guilty.

I have been watching a bit of Richard Grannon today, I think he is ace. He has come out of 2 relationships from PD's and talks with lot of experience. I watched a video today where he talked about BPD and that BPD really shouldn't be diagnosed as it is to broad. After his explanation I agree with him, I am no psychiatrist but he said the current criteria for BPD is to wide and currently diagnose both people with c-PTSD and Vulnerable Narcissists as BPD. The people with c-PTSD can be cured, the Narcs rarely. A lot of articles I have read about BPD writes about that there are lots of BPD's now being cured, are they maybe more traumatised people that has been misdiagnosed? These kind of articles has been detrimental for me over the years as I always had the hope that STBX can change and all she need to do is realise she has BPD. She won't change. She is a Narc.

She keep telling me she will show me how much she loves me. That's crap. She might love me, for the benefits, the residual benefits. There is nothing else she loves about me, she has shown that with all her hate over the years. She is the person being mean to me, the one being nice is a  mask, she can't keep it up.

I keep watching videos, reading, learning, and for every day I am a little bit more Out of the FOG than the day before.

Keep up the great, steady, forward progress EM!  Thoughts and prayers for clear thinking, confident calm strength and stamina. 

SoT

I am still amazed about her behaviour. She has engineered rows all evening, in the end I had to put my foot down (for the second time) to GC telling her that her behaviour wasn't good enough. She kept screaming and swearing at me and I told her that's it, I will take her electronics off her. She blocked me in the door, pushed me and then ended up falling into the wall herself. Out of her bedroom comes STBX screaming at me for attacking GC, shouting at me I am a nasty person and then shouting at me about me and my solicitor being the pits of the earth. All I can do is say, thank you STBX, you could not make it more clear I am doing the right thing. However I really feel sorry for GC being caught up in this and taking her side, I know why she screams at me that she hates me, it hurts, but I have to try to stand my ground as a decent parent. SG can see it all, she knows.

EM:

Your stbx threatened you, then followed through on the threat by directing your GC dd to disrespect you till you reacted, twice, and now they're both willing to say you assaulted GC physically and maybe something worse. Time will tell.  Do you not see how devastating this could be?  Do you not understand where this is heading?  In any case, the stbx is about to wipe that amazement right off your face. 

IMHO the time to discipline your children is when they;re in a safe environment where you'll explain the situation. From what you said,. the girls are pretty normal when stbx isn't around.  That WILL change, but calling GC out for being puppeted by her mother seems like the wrong place, wrong time.  Tell me you recorded the event. Tell me you don't sound unhinged on that tape. 

Please don't expect SG to be your witness on this event.  SG has disrespected you at times at her mother's direction.... likely to avoid her mother's wrath.  You can't blame a child for doing what they need to keep the love of a disordered mother. 

The girls know you'll love them no matter what...... your love is unconditional.  That will never be the case with their mother.

Right now I don't see any relief in site for your children.  Does your attorney have any ideas at all about protecting them from the adult struggle? Are you in recent contact with the domestic violence people?  I think it's likely stbx will be in contact with them very soon.

  You remaining in the family home puts so much more pressure on the kids.  Your nose must be on the PD pebble or you'd see that... right?

Have you found the book The Parallel Process on parenting troubled kids?  Kids are troubled bc the parents are troubled, IME.  The book helps parents learn to do better so they can teach their children to do better.  It's going to help you communicate with your girls.... it's going to help you find your footing and feel less overwhelmed when you're in the thick of this divorce.  I promise. 





She's fixing to wipe that amazement right off your face, IME.



You're going to have to save yourself, IMO.

Remaining in the family home puts terrible strain on the children and on your position and mental health, IME.

I'm not sure why you're still there, but stbx has clearly told you what her strategy is going to be.  I hope you leave before she figures out you're not dropping the divorce.

Practising Mindfulness guided meditations regularly has saved my soul from self destruction. I was prescribed a course by my GP several years ago at my local hospital. I have been practising ever since.

I learn to relax. I learn and accept things that I cannot change. I learn to remain calm. Staying calm is my super power. It is my strength. I am a solid quiet mountain.

It has helped me to cope during the most extreme times of trauma and abuse coping with my uBPD/NPD sister's self destructive mood swings. I could watch her rage and not get caught up in it with her. I would lock myself in the bathroom to keep myself calmly safe with her raging at me from outside.

Observe, don't absorb.

I follow the Mindfulness teacher Tara Brach online. She gives regular free talks. She has such a calming voice. She tells funny stories. We all need to laugh. It's so important.

www.tarabrach.com

Little by little things will change for you. I expect that you are already noticing the changes and how differently you feel.

Abusers are all about power and control. They don't like it when they realise they are slipping away. The abuse can then become more extreme.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

Thanks for your replies.

hhaw, I am still here cause I am building myself up for the next step. Like it took me a couple of months to actually file after I had decided. I am kind of running down the clock as peaceful as I can, as you said as soon as she realise I will not back down anything could happen. At the moment I need her to respond to the court if she is accepting the divorce or if she will take me to court. If I move out before then I am pretty sure her decision would be to contest, if I stay she might in her twisted mind think she can get me to change my mind later on and accept it. I need to play the games, but I need to not get involved in the squabbles as I did yesterday. It was a classic bait and switch as STBX was on my side reprimanding GC until she suddenly swapped side and shouted at me. I can see exactly what she did, I will not fall for that again. STBX will be out all day 2 days next week, I will try to get all paperwork sorted then as I will have time to go through everything (currently I don't know where anything is as STBX has that hidden away somewhere in her enormous amount of filed papers).

Regarding the recordings, I have almost everything recorded but for some reason I missed last nights events. But I have a lot of her craziness, I suppose things she says that would sound crazy to others is just normal to me. I have in recordings how she screams and threatens the girls, even attacking them, I have always hoped to not use them to not drag her through the mud. But, if she tries to drag me through the mud I won't hesitate.

I think I am as far Out of the FOG as needed with STBX, but I am still struggling with the triangulation with the kids and her parental alienation. If I can find a way to cope with that I should be fine, but it is so hard when GC is such a puppeteer to STBX. STBX and GC have even started to share clothes and bought the same jumpers. I feel this is so disgusting I have no words for it, but how can I stop that? 

EM,

I can relate so much to your situation, I too lost 20 years to this nonsense. 

I applaud you for taking the trip and making the positive memories with your DD's.  I would encourage you to plan another one very soon (I get how difficult PD's can make this),  This may be the saving grace for your girls, especially the GC. ( It did not go well for my GC, it was a tragic couple of years post-divorce.) 

Meantime, keep reminding DD's of what a great time you all had during your time together (not in front of PDw).  Not in a manipulative/devisive way, but in an effort to ground them to something positive and healthy. Don't disparage their mom, just circle back to the good memories, laughter, etc.

You are doing great, you have support here.
:bighug:

She is such a victim, I feel disgusted by her victimhood. She want to talk, tell me stories, involve me, and I am so so so so mean that is not letting her. She doesn't pay any attention anyway and keep talking to me, or at me to be precise. All she wants is me, she doesn't want money, just me back. She cries, then storms out in a mood moaning, then ends up singing in the kitchen to come back 5 minutes later to start again. A short while ago she followed me round the house in every room I went and just stood there looking at me. Apparently she has so much on at the moment so she wants me to pause the proceedings to let her get the grips of things. She must think I was born yesterday, oh yes I delay so she can buy time.

But, not once. Not one single time has she asked how I feel and how come I filed for divorce with such accusations of abuse as I did. Not once....

EM:

It warms my heart and makes me feel hopeful when I read you're connecting with your children. The time you spent away from the PD..... seemed to me a respite from what must be a tightrope of eggshells for your children.  I wonder what they make of the stbx posturing as a victim, trying to tell you her sad stories and have you ignore her. The stbx will tell your girls what to think of it. 

I've asked a few times about your attorney setting up an emergency hearing based on past abuse you documented AND the stbx's refusal to stop discussing and involving the children in the adult conflict. 

Have you spoken to your attorney about that possibility?

I know it's difficult to pull your attention away from the stbx's egregiously harmful behaviors, but it will do you good to manage it,IME.

For the kids, I am really worried about GC. I need her to break her unhealthy bond with STBX. She has been fed so much crap about me, SG and everyone else around. I can hardly get a word back from her at home, she does anything for STBX but snarls at me. Anything I say, GC takes as a criticism of STBX and she just shout and swear at me. It really has become a dynamic where STBX and GC bully me and SG, STBX has now backed off me as she is trying to get me to change my mind, but GC hasn't and that backfires on her as STBX gets angry with her for continuing "the war" whilst she is trying another manipulation. SG is strong, physically strong so when GC ramps up her bullying she can hurt GC physically, which she does at times. To try to get SG to see that this is not OK, but at the same time tell GC off for her initial bullying, with a screaming PD in the background is not easy. I am exhausted.

STBX was supposed to be out all day today, so I had my plan to get things moving done. But her plans changed and she is now in the house, making it impossible to what I planned. I suppose the paperwork is actually not that important, a valuation of the house can wait, it won't make any difference really if I just guess a number and have an estate agent confirming that later. I just need the last piece of her showing her hand if she will accept or fight the divorce, then I can make my next move which likely will be moving out. 

EM I see so much of my situation in yours, hhaw is actually right the blow up at your GC could be your undoing, I accidentally scratched my daughter's arm with a bracelet I wear while trying to calm her down, and my udBPDex has turned it into years of prolonged abuse, and I has kept my children from me for 2 1/2 months, the courts are just now starting to see how she is and have taking legal custody away from her for our oldest daughter and I foresee them taking physical as well because she has made it clear GC is the court's responsibility now . So yes it was wonderful you had those two days of heaven, it's the same with my kids, but tread lightly and document (you can't forget a single day). I had no choice but to move out (and am honestly glad I did). I suggest you do so as well. I wish nothing but the best for you and your kids EM good luck bro.

EM:

Right now you have it in your head that moving out would be "taking the gloves off" IMO. 

You're waiting for the PD to "show you her hand" before you make a move, but I want you to reflect on any patterns between you for the last 15 years.

Likely it's the PD doing egregiously harmful things with you reacting, but never holding her accountable or forcing her to deal with consequences of her actions.

I hope you can see that pattern, widen your gaze and see how PRESSING EVERY ADVANTAGE to hold the pd accountable could help you and your children OUT of this situation more quickly and with more protections.

Right now you're still waiting for the PD to set the stage and decide what you'll do next.  It's a position of weakness and doing nothing IME is about backsliding into a ditch....and I understand that too well, bc I've been in many legal ditches.  Usually with attorneys giving me that very advice,bc attorneys yearn to settle EVERYTHING, which means we can't use our evidence in the next case, which is demoralizing and the PDs get trickier once they know we're documenting and it's a downhill slide you'd do well to avoid IF you still can.

Pressing your case, going to trial and avoiding a settlement means your evidence will BE IN THE COURT RECORD for future reference AND you won't lose that evidence forever, bc once you settle....the court won't consider it anymore, IME. Think about that for a minute.  Settling doesn't work for people in abusive situations, IME. 

Peddling uphill in your sitution would mean actively holding the PD accountable for everything you can (at this late point) and not allowing her to get away with anything going forward...nothing. 

It would mean YOU decide what your next move is....hopefully the strongest action you can take through the courts and dv systems and not backing off an inch, ever, for any reason an the kids are going to be pressuring you if you somehow manage to stop the PD's voice and physical presense from doing it herself. 

I'm not gonna lie...... peddling up the hill you're on would take tremendous courage and willpower going against your very nature...... and that would be ferociously uncomfortable for you and WHILE you're struggling and weakened and your children are suffering.  It's really hard...maybe it's impossible. I don't know. Everything in your brain and body will be screaming for relief, but IME the quickest way to true relief is sticking with that discomfort, making a good strong plan to hold the PD accountable at every chance then HOLD her accountable without backing off an inch.  TRIAL COURT is your friend. Do not fear trial court.  Your PD should fear it, but might be too uhinged to understand the harsh light of that courtroom won't work out the way she thinks it will....with her accusing you and you buckling and things going back to the way they were.

In court lies catch up to people.  Producing evidence is compelling and helpful. You'll do better than the PD in court.... don't forget that.

Your plan to wait and see wait and see wait and see is a pattern in your relationship with the PD and maybe your entire life. 
Maybe you can't change it.
Heck, maybe you have no interest in changing it. It's not for me to say.

My wanting it for you.... my seeing you change your very nature is, admittedly, my yearning to change my own very similar nature.  I'm projecting what I want for myself ONTO you.... with all my hindsight and trauma informed therapy sessions.... and I'm still struggling in daily situations.  It's not easy and I want you to remember that..... remember to be very kind to yourself no matter what happens.

You're in the abyss..... a bit blind, flying by the seat of your pants and whatever you do..... remember true panic and biochemical hijacks will ebb and flow.  Best to take action ONLY when you're out of the grip of panic, IME. You'll have moments where the chemicals will actually help you if you can sit with the REALLY bad discomfort long enough and breathe through them,IME. Trust the panic will pass and know you'll be able to think with more clarity soon enough.  Resist acting when you're in deep distress if you can.

I'm reminding you to examine your patterns and understand repeating them will get you more of what you already have.

CHANGING your patterns, which is REALLY uncomfortable, will get you something different....... maybe.  That's not easy to see when you have tunnel vision and your biochemistry is constantly hijacked by the PD keeping you off balance and reacting.

Just know you can do it, you deserve to be protected and you're obligated to protect your children so it's OK to begin making decisions BEFORE the PD shows you her hand.

The stbx will always lie, cheat, steal and knock you off balance, btw.  Learning new footwork, to get out of her reach, could be an option that saves you EVERYTHING... time, resources and more trauma to your children.

Just say'n..... you have more choice than you realize. 

Trial Court is, IME, the quickest way OUT of the abyss and usually the one affording the best protections.

Nuff said.

Good luck

I watched a seminar about divorcing a narcissist with Richard Grannon, Sam Vaknin and Sara Davison. They are all speaking a bit more direct and put a lot more on the non-PD than most of the other people talking about the subject. The message is pretty much, don't be a victim, sort yourself and kick that Narc out of your life. Quite like hhaw is trying to tell me, things won't change by it self. I am trying to figure out my next move, but if I wait for STBX to show her hand I will still be waiting in a years time. It's becoming obvious to me she is just stalling and delaying and trying to make me change my mind. As hard as it will be, I will need to straighten my back and move out. I will not have any peace until I am out of her space. I understand that.

Thanks for all support, it really helps.

What Sam Vaknin said that really got into me was: Stop being a victim, be a survivor.

My message is more.......
stop repeating the patterns that got you where you are.

We're all dealing with childhood wounds and doing the best we can. When we know better, we do better.

That's you,EM and me and everyone on this board.

Words like "victim" and "survivor" bring up emotional resonses for me and everyone, likely.   The PD will turn that on you, belittle you..... say you're whining and make you feel ashamed..... and so might many people who hear the word applied to anyone in a first world Country...... best not to use labels, IME.

I'd rather stick to the facts and backing them up with evidence..... with asking the Courts, police and DV services for everything they can provide while leaning into the stbx falling under the weight of their own consequences.....nothing to do with us.   THe nons did their best and the consequences of our actions fall on our heads.  We deal with them every day and that's our burden.  Covering for the PD, giving them more changes and wiggle room and waiting for them to make a move so we're always reacting.....is never a good strategy, IME.  (Yes, the ROYAL we.... roll with it.)

Protecting the PD's, EVEN AN INCH falls again on our heads and brings dire consequences for us and the children crushed under the weight of allowing the toxic PD to call the shots, extend the proceedings and you're right about your stbx extending this out as long as she can.

It's the PD playbook and most people posting support to you has dealt with it.  Learnng from our mistakes is available to you.

Learing the hard way is too.

What was also repeated in the seminar, which I know and have read and heard before, but is the biggest truth. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DIAGNOSIS STBX MIGHT HAVE, SHE HAS ABUSED ME, SHE STILL IS ABUSING ME AND SHE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING ME AND THAT IS ENOUGH! At the moment it is only a question of time before it blows up, STBX is walking around as a ticking bomb. I was accused of using the silent treatment against her a couple of hours ago, wonder how she knows about the silent treatment  :applause: But I certainly didn't use it, I did MC and GR.  Then she went and did a story to GC about her being such a victim and very covertly blamed me. GC bought it and was very short with me afterwards. I did not have any energy or will power to try to correct STBX, it would only have ended up in an argument I could never win anyway.

I think you all are right, I just need out and fight this from afar.

Ok, today and tonight she gave us a shit show deluxe! All recorded! Will listen to it tomorrow to see if I can use it.

*trigger warning*

To set the scene, during the day girls were in school and me and STBX at home working in different parts of the house.

I am sitting in my office, headphones on (noise cancelling) listening to music at loud volume whilst working. STBX turns up in my office collecting something next to me, suddenly she stands in front of me articulating and waving her arms. I remove my headphones and look at her wondering what's going on. She tells me I don't need to be mean to hear and she is not having any intentions of being mean to me and then she leaves. Whooooosh, the PD interpretation has done it again. I didn't hear her, I didn't look at her, I was working..... But I was mean. Fair enough, I am used to it.

Two hours later, I am still sitting in my office working. She opens the door and tells me to stop being mean to her. I just look her confused as all I have done is worked in my office. She tells me she loves me so much but wonder why I hate her and is mean to her. Again, I was working.....

Later on she has had screaming and swearing sessions with the girls, followed by being nice to them, and then swearing again within minutes. Crying about why we all are so horrible to her when she is so nice to us all.

Finishing it all off by kicking off with SG for asking her why she is eating in bed (she took a biscuit with her to bed), and instead of saying she just wanted to eat a biscuit in bed she went on a rant about how naught she is and she is not allowed biscuits and in the end threw it back into the kitchen. SG obviously went upset telling STBX of course she can have a biscuit in bed but STBX screams she is clearly not allowed and swears at SG. SG asks for an apologise which ends up in STBX grabbing her arm and squeezing it until SG starts crying and runs to me for comfort.

I then cuddled and played with SG until she got back to some kind of state, she made it quite clear what she feels about her mum.

I am knackered but maybe STBX is actually losing it now and I can get her out of the house.

No doubt I am doing the right by divorcing her.

It is my impression that in general, getting one spouse out of a home before the divorce is finalized is most easily accomplished by one of the spouses leaving the house voluntarily. Your wife's behavior, although extremely aggravating, doesn't seem worse than other things you've described her doing. If you want to ask the court to order your wife to leave the home, this incident seems neither more nor less of a basis for this request than the other things. But the most effective approach to take, as hhaw has said, is to stop waiting for your wife to do or not do things. She has all the power if your actions depend on her reactions.

I get it Poison Ivy, I really get it . I should leave. But I am scared of leaving the girls behind, especially SG as I have no idea what they would do to her. I know she is fine if I leave for a few days but if I move out, I am not sure.

Will talk to solicitor tomorrow about what to do, tried today but we both missed each others calls.

What I see from my vantage point:

You're waiting for her to indicate, verbally or via her actions through a lawyer (signed papers, scheduled hearing, or the like), whether she'll accept the divorce or contest it through the court.

But she shows you every single day what she has decided to do.

She has decided to do absolutely nothing about it except continue the only playbook she knows to try to regain your compliance.

That's it. That's her plan.

Quote from: square on February 23, 2022, 06:16:54 PM
What I see from my vantage point:

You're waiting for her to indicate, verbally or via her actions through a lawyer (signed papers, scheduled hearing, or the like), whether she'll accept the divorce or contest it through the court.

But she shows you every single day what she has decided to do.

She has decided to do absolutely nothing about it except continue the only playbook she knows to try to regain your compliance.

That's it. That's her plan.

100% true, that's why I am not waiting any longer. I will run this from now on. I will be in charge, not her.

Just spoke to solicitor, apparently stbx is trying to get me to back down from some of the claims. No way I give ger an inch, she would just try for something else as soon I agree to something. Told solicitor about her behaviour and she will highlight it in a format letter. Not sure what will come from that but it's a start for negoting agreements for the kids before Moving out.

Yesterday she really showed me who she is bwhi d the mask, I am grateful for that as I know is all ready for fighting.

Have had some time to analyse what happened yesterday with STBX getting into a rage. I was in a really good mood and slipped with my MC and GR for just a few minutes where I spoke to her and the kids in a quite happy way. I must have just given her enough supply to get her strong enough to then unleash on me and SG. It is so important to never slip with the MC, but I hate not being able to be just me and show my emotions. But until I am out of all this I need to keep MC and GR, there are no options as she showed how quick she is ready to attack.

Quote from: user on February 24, 2022, 12:52:22 PM
Out of curiosity, are you going for full or split custody of the girls? You may have explained this before, apologies if it's redundant to share again.

I haven't got that far yet, currently we are negotiating if she will accept the divorce or contest it. If she contest it I will go for everything,  if not I have to see what the options are. I don't want to be the one that took the mum away from the children, but if that's the best option I will go for it. But, however badly she has behaved I will always struggle in a battle for custody as the mums tend to get it.

Massive fight between the kids, tried to calm them and was shouted and sworn at by GC. STBX gets involved and started threating GC with all kinds. Then left with SG for one of their activities, left GC behind. I spent some time really talking to her, ended up with GC cuddling me and us having a really nice time. She suddenly also reveals shew wants to get back to the activity she has cancelled (because STBX hates it). There is hope, but with STBX involved it is hard. It is so hard.

I feel you empty, in so many ways, and I'm not going to lie custody will be one hell of a battle no matter what you go, just remember it will be YOU under the microscope not her. I know I have such wonderful times with my GC when her mother isn't around. My ex has already become " the one who took a parent away" so that card has already been deal, we shall see you pays the "pot". Best of luck brother....*fist bump..You got this!

This is such a difficult time.  That period between filing and finality.  It is also dangerous.  The PD will be most volatile.  Sometimes GR and MC even if deployed consistently are not full proof.  It's not on you - this is all about them.

I know you have spoken with your lawyer and you are waiting to hear her response - that you are taking firm control.  I commend you for that.

Have you had a good conversation with your lawyer about what would happen if you moved out now - and the kids moved with you?  Did you ask if it would be kidnapping since you are also the biological parent?  And you are not denying access just providing them a quieter and more stable environment?  Perhaps closer to school and activiites? etc.  You don't have to answer me - but sometimes we assume things in legal and that isn't the case.  I thought my son had to stay in the home and my lawyer advised against it.  He came with me when I left.  For safety.

Really understand all the aspects of this and you may be surprised at your options.  And when you are done asking your questions, ask "What haven't I asked that I should ask?"  It may surprise you.

I am so glad that you still posting here.  Sharing with us.  I hope it helps. 

Regardless of the law, and the PD, and diagnosis, and any of her behavior - you are worth it.  You are a good father.  A good man. 

I spoke to all this with the lawyer, she doesn't want me to move out until we have an agreement in place for the girls. This will not be the final custody but something temporary agreed for when one of us (me I suppose) moves out and before the divorce is completed. If I move out before that, if I understand it right, she could refuse to agree anything and have the girls 100% of the time. In a perfect world I would go for 50/50 but let the girls decide pretty much for them selves as they are getting old enough. But as we all know, this isn't a perfect world and if the girls were to decide they would be guilt tripped into stay at STBX most of the time. But, first step is to get her to respond to the court if she accept or contest the divorce. I am not sure how long time she can delay this, she is playing the delay game now and I am sure she will as long as she can, but in the end she can't dodge the court.

Thanks for your kind words justkeeptrying, but I really don't feel like a good parent or person at the moment. I am more or less locked into my room all day and all evening to avoid as much contact with STBX as possible. I want to do things with the girls, but the interference from STBX makes every attempt a war as she tries to involve her selves and making me the bad one for not playing happy family. STBX has zero boundaries and she doesn't care at all how much she upset the girls, she happily upset them if that makes me look bad. 

Thanks Getintired76, *fist bump

I am struggling a bit today, doing to much thinking I guess. I told a friend about the divorce yesterday, that felt natural and not a big deal, it's not a close friend but it felt like good to tell. That got me thinking, I haven't told my parents about it. I don't even want to tell them. I have got to realise that they have never been there emotionally for me, ever. They never thought me any boundaries, they never respected any boundaries. I have one episode with my dad, I think he is heavily co-dependent and I suspect his partner is some kind of PD, I don't know as I rarely see her. We had a crisis and were thinking of moving close to where my parents live, just a couple of miles from my dad. He never paid any interest in the house we were about to buy, he never asked any questions, and after our last viewing of the house and we came back to his all he was worried about was getting his car back (we had borrowed it) so he could drive off to an event with his partner as she had driven off without him. When growing up, and when an adult, he has always arranged things in the background without telling me his plans, making me always worried about what comes next. I don't think he has ever stood up for me or asked me how I really am, he has always been interested in me fitting in to please whoever is the one he has promised something, his sister, his partner, my sister, a neighbour, the man from the store, anyone but me. That he hasn't said anything about how uNPDw treats me and asked me how I really feel makes me quite sick. Instead he has always challenged it to push through his agenda to please someone else, leaving me in the middle of a battle I can't win as I have to let someone down, that person always being me.

My mum, I really don't know what she is but she has some issues, but I don't think she is PD, but she has definitely gone through traumas. She always tells me something, and then does the opposite. I don't trust her, if I tell her something very personal, I would expect her to have shared that with everyone within minutes and added her judgement to it. She does not get along with my uNPDw, so she will be delighted when I tell her about the divorce, but I can't stand the thought about her being smug and unleashing all her bad words about STBX. The pair of them have had a passive aggressive conflict as long as I can remember, they both smile towards each other but both putting me in impossible situations as they both tries to get their way. I have got to realise my mum has done this as long as I can remember, but I have never challenged her as I have never had any boundaries. Just an example, my mum was going to have the girls over night, she was planning to cook some food, chicken I think it was. The girls came to me telling me they didn't really want that kind of food (here is where I think that had been started by STBX telling them this to challenge her), the girls being to scared of my mum so asks me to tell her they didn't want the chicken. I told my mum if it would be possible to give them something else instead and maybe give them the chicken next time. She tells me yes of course no problems. The next day, you can guess it, the girls tells me that she gave them the chicken.

I could probably go on for ever with similar examples. Sorry for this rant, this is probably the kind of things I need a T to talk about. I can see how my parents left me with no boundaries and as an easy target for STBX.

I am wondering how much of my detachment of my parents is down to uNPDw and her devaluing of them since basically the start of our relationship. It has been a roller coaster and I have been in the middle of a storm trying to please all sides.

STBX caught me in the door when I was on my way out, asking me I have had any more thoughts. What thoughts I replied playing dumb. You know she said, the marriage, and then she went on about how I just can't throw away all years and so on. I told her I had not had any thoughts and nothing had changed and that if anyone had thrown away the marriage it was her. Then I left without listening to what she was about to say. It felt quite good, I genuinely didn't care about what she had to say for herself, and I didn't feel anything about the marriage being over. I am past it, I have done my grieving, I genuinely are on the other side mentally now. I do still struggle when the kids are involved, but that's for a different reason.

EM, boy, is she relentless. Just checking to see if you changed your mind, eh? Over and over and over. Offering no promises. Just talking about what it's doing to her. I bet you weren't interested because you know it by heart by now and it's boring. You've seen the movie 1000 times and there's nothing to be curious about.

user, I totally agree, EM does too, that's what he wanted in an ideal world which he knows he hasn't got.

As Square says, in a perfect world with 2 civil parents I see no reason why the kids could "roam" between the 2 houses. This will not be an option, my first stand would be 50/50, but I might go for full custody as STBX is losing her cool with the kids. GC is under heavy fire by her at the moment and I am trying to calm GC down and explain how her own behaviour creates problems. As I get 1 step forward with GC, STBX make sure she put her 2 steps back. I honestly think STBX will struggle with having the girls, holding a job and taking care of a house. I might be wrong, but I think she will struggle to cope. That we would split the girls is out of the question, but something STBX is threatening with. I can't see anyone allowing that to happen though. I do think the girls is starting to really see something is wrong with their mum, GC is really fighting back at the moment.

"GC is under heavy fire by her at the moment and I am trying to calm GC down and explain how her own behaviour creates problems."

Explaining to a child, especially a preteen/teen, that your STBX's behavior is due to the child's behavior is problematic.  First, as the adult, your STBX in a perfect world would be the adult and not react the way she has.  Second, your children do not have the mental capability to put in place MC/GR - it is unnatural for us adults - and you referenced it earlier in a post how hard it is - imagine how hard it is for a young girl in puberty with all that mania who just wants a mom. 

This is where you need to be the stable adult and protect them at all costs.  If your kids talk back or fight back - then you gently remind them it is not productive but that their feelings are valid.  That is so crucially important.  Their feelings are valid and important and you do value them.  I know you do.

I know you had a long and lengthy discussion with your attorney about the kids and I applaud you for that.  But let him know that the abuse is escalating and that you are concerned for the children.  You have video evidence - this may be the time for all of you to leave.  Talk to him again and do it soon.

Sorry, I really wrote that text about GC incorrect. Let me try again and hope this makes sense.

SG and GC have an argument, GC annoys SG in some way and SG physically attacks GC. GC is hurt, making a meal out of it but SG did something wrong. At this point, GC starts screaming and swearing and calling everybody names, me and STBX included. GC then ends up as the bad one as she had escalated it. STBX screams and threatens her. What I am trying to tell GC is that, if she can stay calm after SG attacked her, and not swear and scream, she will not end up in trouble, SG will be the one told off for physically attacking her. But, the fact GC screams, swears and calls both me and STBX names makes her ending up the bad one.

I am trying and trying to calm her down to not react like she does to the SG attack, but with STBX keeps screaming back at her and threaten her it is very difficult. I try to be fair and tell them both off and ask them to be nice to each other, but STBX makes it about her and how she needs the house calm and then she starts threatening them. My calming of GC has nothing to do with STBX, it has to do with GC's reactions to her interaction with SG.

I hope this makes it clearer.

Much clearer escapingman.  And only so much more difficult for you.

I do believe that some of this age but a great deal of your kids behavior is also due to your stbx.

I hope you get out soon and the kids can spend more time with you outside of their mother's influence where they can find peace, stability and a place to grow emotionally.

This dynamic created by STBX is killing me. The last days I have got a bit closer with GC and GC in turn has calmed down a lot. This has resulted in SG getting into a fit and kicked off, screamed and being extremely nasty to both me and GC. It all ended up SG tried to set me up with STBX telling her stories about what a horrible person I am. I really can't do this anymore. I don't know what to do, whatever I do STBX has caused so much damage that it's not possible to keep the peace. Only time peace has happened is when me and the girls went away for 2 days. It's so obvious I need out, with the girls. But the lawyer need to start working overtime now, I don't care about the cost. I just need out.

I have had a really good day to day, dodged her desperate attempts several times. But now I am really starting to struggle with doing the MC as she keeps baiting me. She comes to me declaring her love for me, I tell her to stop, she tells me again and gets closer, I tell her to stop, she tells me she loves me again and asks if I want to eat the evening meal with her, I say no and she complains. She leaves the room crying, comes back 2 minutes later telling me she loves me and she just wants us to be happy together, I tell her to leave me alone, she starts accusing me of being mean and asks me why I am so mean to her. I tell her to just leave me alone and she starts threatening me if I am not nice to her I am not allowed to leave the house again.  :stars: So in her world I have 2 options, I either do as she says or else I will sit in house arrest. Got it all on recording for all its worth. I am really struggling with this as I said, I can't be nice to her for obvious reasons, I can't be mean to her as that gives her supply and I can't ignore her as she keep baiting. Whilst writing this she came in again, for the 10th time in 30 minutes trying to tell me she loves me, had to tell her again to leave me alone, she then asks if she should just stop talking, I said yes and now she has been crying uncontrollable for 10 minutes.

As she has played this charade so many times now over the last year(s) I don't even feel much anymore. I just feel sorry for her for being so incredible stupid that she can't see what she is doing. Pathetic to be honest. If she wanted another chance her first thing to do was to acknowledge what she has done and say sorry, but she can't do that.

EM:

I worry for the children...... they're listening and absorbing lwhat goes on between you and stbx.

Please tell your attorney the girls are being harmed bc stbx refused to stop talking Abt divorce, stop manipulating girls, stop lashing out at them and you.  Put it in an email.....and tell her the kids need crisis intervention....a social worker but someone!

Tell your attorney the stbx WILL escalate and you fear for everyone.

I think some attorneys assume all litigants exaggerate but you need her to listen to a tape where girls .are present

Ask for help....tell her how bad it is for the children.

Wen stbx threatens suicide have her taken in for evaluation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No faffing around!!!!!!!!!

hhaw, I already spoken about this with my solicitor and she is going to formally request STBX through her solicitor to stop involving the kids. Not that she will stop, but it will be recorded formally.

5 minutes after I posted my last message she came in to me and asked me for the receipt for the TV for her financial disclosure. The TV is 7 years old......

No one cares if your wife is bugging you, IME.

What they should care about is adults barfing the adult conflict and divirce onto the children.

They should care about domestic violence and weaponizing children to attack, disrespect and torment a sibling and non parent.  The GC is being harmed, the SG is being harmed and you are being harmed through the courts continuing failure to act, ime

Keep documenting the situation in e mails to your attorney.  Continue making crystal clear what you SEE and hear and the effect on the children.  Continue making it clear you have concerns/ fears about the downward spiral if stbx's mental health and do not hesitate to have stbx taken in for evaluation should she threaten suicide again harm to herself.

That would help you get protections for you and the girls quick and get stbx help she definitely needs

If everything goes South you'll have something documented to back up your story.

Be very polite and reasonable, but frank and specific about the details you've beef red and can prove.

I am really really struggling right now. Whatever I do or say, STBX is making it out to either be me loving her or hating her, nothing in between. If we are in agreement about something, she pretends we are an item again. It's killing me, I must be able to agree with her about something regarding our children without it meaning we are back together? I must be able to disagree about something without it meaning I hate her so much I want her dead. I know the game, but it's still so hard and especially when the kids are involved. I have had to take a hard decision today about one of the kids activities, it has become a toxic environment and I just want her out, STBX has wanted her out for months bur for different reasons, so STBX is now delighted and think she has won. She hasn't won anything, I am sad, daughter is a bit upset, but she really doesn't need to be involved in something toxic when I am trying to get her into activities that should make her happy.

Next week will be big, through my solicitor we will ask STBX to stop involving the kids in the divorce and also ask her to just agree to the divorce. I have a feeling she won't agree, that will be painful, but in some way I hope she doesn't as I think she will be exposed in front of a court. I have all the evidence, and she feels entitled.

I feel a bit better today, I have spoken to someone near the toxic people. He completely agreed and fully understood my decision to remove my daughter from the toxic environment. He even recommended where I could go to continue the activity but for another club. Good damn I feel good about it now, is this some kind of thing now getting Out of the FOG to start clearing out toxic people?

I am glad that you were able to remove your daughter from a difficult environment.  It's true that you start to see people differently and put up with less toxicity.  While I am still an empathetic, kind and supportive person, I am very careful now who I allow in my bubble.  I definitely look at people and situations differently.  Even family.

I looks like I opened the floodgates as more parents now take their kids out of this toxic environment, I feel good now. But I cannot believe how much my STBX has been feeding on this, as me and the girls has been talking about this, messages in the back ground between various people. STBX has been there, gathering information, being smug, trying to stir, influence, you name it. But her delusion reached new heights, she was talking about anonymously reporting this toxic person to social services as she was very concerned. Whilst trying to not wet myself I calmly told her that the person already is reported and probably already under their radar. Then she went back to screaming at the kids for having left the hall in a state.   

I am out for lunch on my own, in a shopping centre. It's noisy, dirty, full of kids and even a mother breastfeeding. I am just enjoying the chaos and treasuring the thought about how much STBX had raged if she was with me.

Just need to add I would have sat in a complete panic state observing every little thing happening around us just waiting for her to blow up.

Today has been a difficult today, had a worker in the house and he managed to break something that was emotionally very valuable to STBX. I felt really sorry for her, she really looked like to lost little child. For a second I thought about just forgetting about all this, give her a big hug and say everything would be OK. I went out in the car and had a really good cry as I know I can't hug her, I can't pretend things would be good, I can't pretend it is up to me to sort this. After a good cry I felt better and agreed with myself I am still doing the right thing to divorce her.

That's hard EM. Sending hugs. You did the right thing.

Overwhelmed and lost motivation. I am struggling now, really struggling, not with my decision to divorce STBX but to get the motivation to do anything. I can't concentrate on work, I can't concentrate to get all papers for the divorce in order, I am just out of energy and I can't think. I am putting all my energy I can summon into doing MC, noJADE, GR and the little energy I have left I spend sorting out things for the kids. I just want to go to bed and then wake up with all this sorted. I don't even care about if the finances are split exactly 50/50, to be honest I don't care about them at all at the moment, I just want out of this relationship, I can't sit and ring round everywhere sorting things when STBX can enter the room at any time, frightens me.  STBX has an enormous amount of paperwork all over, important stuff mixed in with the instructions for how to build a Billy's bookcase, I can't find anything. However, I found an electricity bill from where we lived 15 years ago.... 

She is really freaking me out now, she is this weird version of herself where she pretends all is OK and I can do whatever I want, I can see how she struggle under this mask but she is determined to prove to me she has changed so I will stay. However, she hasn't changed with the girls and screams and shouts at them, so it doesn't  make much change to me as that's one of the main issues.

That period between filing and working through all the steps individually; the reality of the separation and reality of who you married; emotional bruising from the marriage; angst, anger and frustration with worry for your kids - it is a lot and it does take a real mental and physical toll on you.  Your feelings are real and you deserve to be heard.  I am glad we can be here for you during this process.

I saw you had lunch on your own and you have taken mini breaks in the past.  I encourage you to (if you can't move out now) take a daily break from the house. Walk the neighborhood, go to the grocery, sit in the yard with a book, whatever and wherever you can to gain some time for yourself.  Some time to break mentally so that you survive.

Also checklist.  This is a big one for me - checklist what you need to move ahead with the divorce,  Yes, don't move out now if the lawyer wants you to stay but that doesn't mean you can't look at places and budget and think about what to take with you.  That type of planning - with a checklist - will give you a feeling of moving forward.  GIve you the fuel to look beyond her mask and maintain that GR/MC.

I was so back and forth in this period.  Wild swings in emotion.  It gets better.  It really does.

I love the ideas of the daily break, and the checklist too.

I'd be thinking about a lock on the door as well.

Paralysis is pretty common.....zero energy, despair, fear....... that's what contact with the stbx creates and IME it gets worse, not better.  The weaker you get, the more difficult it is to function which is why having a good plan put together ahead of so important.

You don't have to make decisions.  Just look at the plan and do whatever needs doing.

I'm always going to be shocked about how the courts view emotional abuse, esp against children.  I remain hopeful you'll get a special hearing, opposing counsel will jerk a knot in stbx's tail to stop the raging at your girls......move the PD out of the family home, bc she can't stop discussing the divorce and yelling in front of the he children, but you'll have to hang in there and trust you're strong enough to keep moving you and the girls to a better space.

The despair is part of divorcing a PD.  Sharing stbx's space is a brutal way to live, not gonna lie, but that's the plan and you're in it. 

Stay the course.....
Hold....
Hold.....
Hold and trust things get MUCH better when you remove contact with the stbx from your life.

You will be happy to feel the sun on your face again, EM.  I wish it was possible now......get that T in place and keep moving toward the exit door.

Nothing will be perfect.

Cut yourself some slack, stay curious, resist judging....anything....when you can.

And breathe, EM.  Breathe for your life and your childrens'.

Take time away from the stbx.  See friends.  Ask for help.

I really don't think anyone should have to live in this kind of situation, regardless of what the law says.

One thing I've learned over the years is how important it is to look after myself mentally and physically.

For my child.

Even before it being for myself.

My ds15 already has a mentally unhealthy (uNPD) father and (uNPD) smother.  If I'm not well either the poor kid stands little chance.

EM, the choice to move out now or not is entirely yours.

I doubt my health would survive if I was in your situation.

Some of the incidents you describe sound like police involvement could be warrented.

I wonder if you might consider calling them next time such things occur.

And yes. A checklist, mini breaks and a lock on the door seem sensible.

Can you find a way to work away from home?

Maybe at a library.  Or a coffee shop.  Some coffee shops might give you a booth for the day for a small fee and you could use their wifi.

Or is there a small office space you could rent. Maybe with other people.

Working from home should ideally be as though you're at the office: 8 hours with no interruptions and specific breaks, imo.  (Although I love being able to randomly put on a load of washing or pull a few weeds during the day!)

All the best EM. Keep moving forward.

AOD

"I doubt my health would survive if I was in your situation."

This thought was the tipping point for me. My then husband wasn't taking care of me or our children, and I feared that if I stayed married, my mental and physical health would suffer so much that I wouldn't be able to take care of myself or our children. And my children were already adults at this point. The stress from the marriage was that bad.

"Today has been a difficult today, had a worker in the house and he managed to break something that was emotionally very valuable to STBX. I felt really sorry for her, she really looked like to lost little child."

When I read this, I thought that you are very empathetic, and very attached.  Your STBX is impacting your emotions on a daily basis - and your children.  When I start to think that way - sorry for my STBXBPH for whatever reason - I quickly remind myself that he does not have one brain cell devoted to my feelings or struggles - not even a tiny atom.  Nothing.  So, I let it go.  For me, having a strong emotion in his direction (even if it one that shows compassion) isn't good for me - it can mess with my mind.  It's a slippery slope that I avoid.

Trauma causes exhaustion. It can become overwhelming mentally and physically. All you may want to do is sleep in order to recover.

You can calmly and gradually work through a list of things you need to do.

Take time to praise yourself. Remind yourself that you are a good person. Talk to yourself as if you were your best friend. Be your own cheerleader.

I follow Kris Godinez on YouTube who suggests that we do "mirror work" where we look at ourselves in the mirror and praise and encourage ourselves out loud. We give ourselves permission to have a good day every day. We say good things to ourselves. We congratulate ourselves and say well done for all that we have achieved.

Little by little things can and will change for you and your children.

You are doing so well.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

Thanks for all your kind words. I really can't be in the same place as her longer, I booked a few nights away and went. I am seeing q friend, not a close one but we are going to drink some beer, watch some sport and walk around London. When I was leaving the house STBX was desperately trying to tell me about her love and how she will miss me, I could not hade my smile about the Joy of getting out. She refused to let me leave without a hug, and then she refused to let go of me. But I am out for a few days, I feel I can breathe.

The dangerous thing here is that I have now been away from STBX fir a few days, spent time with a friend and not gad a single thought about STBX  and the divorce. I some way I start forgetting g how bad it has been, especially since STBX has played the being nice game lately. But, it is also making ne stronger and more determined to get this over and done with. It is so enjoyable to spend time with someone normal that doesn't keep you on your toes and to actually be able to be me and say whatever I want without risking a meltdown. I am so used to the drama with STBX but to not have to scan the environment makes such a calmer living.

Just to be able to think "shit happens" and then move on when something goes wrong is bliss.

I know what you mean about enjoying the calm and peace.

It's not until we can get out of the traumatic environment and decompress that we realise what we've experienced for so long. We can get so used to all the dramas, stress and chaos.

I have other siblings and they have such kind, caring, loving relationships with their families. It's always good to be around them. I can relax and not be afraid to speak.

Like you I never knew how my uBPD/NPD sister would react. She could be so unpredictable by suddenly flying into loud narcissistic rages.

One small step at a time and you'll achieve your ultimate goal.

You may like to look at these free meditation resources from Calm that I've just posted in the Other Media Resources section of the forum. I particularly enjoyed the Loving Kindness meditation.

https://www.calm.com/resources


Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

So just had a missed call from my solicitor, STBX is still trying to haggle over the court fees before she would accept the divorce. My worry is that if I agree (just want it done) she will find something else to use as delay tactic.  The interesting bit us that at home she is telling me all she wants is me back and she doesn't care about the money.

All she cares about is control, that's for sure. If I jack this in and give her another chance, I don't think it would go a month max until she was back at her old ways and me at breaking point. So thanks but no.

I feel a bit better after being away for a few days, but really dreading going back home. So uplifting being able to have my own opinions without risking a fallout. Even see other people not losing their cool when something goes wrong, I am just not used to it. The friend I met is a relatively new friend, first time I saw him he was a bit boring with no drama. But the more I see him the more I like him, cause he has no drama. I have realised I have been drawn to people full of drama. This is something I really need to be more careful about. Of course not all people with lots of things going on are PD, but it's certainly something to be aware of.

Another point to remember. I can guarantee you if you up and said "Hey the divorce is off" she would proceed to trot it out like a trophy every time she thought it would serve her purposes. She would most likely use it to mock you, but you would never be allowed to forget about, and would certainly never be forgiven for it.

Even after my enDad successfully divorced my uBPDm, she would say things to him like "Why don't you just come back and live here? Things can be like they used to!" Scared the crap out of him, because he was running precisely from the way things had been. But she couldn't see that. She only had good memories of the years together and was utterly blind to the reality that she had created. He (and I) were living hell on earth and she just wanted things to stay as they were with no changes. Prior to the divorce, they separated for a little while, then he came back for a little while (probably getting stuff in order is my guess), and while he was "back" she mocked him about the first round of leaving. Said things like "I guess he couldn't live without me after all!" So on and so forth, you get the picture.

I am 100% aware of that Andeza, she has already slipped and shouted at me "You and your fucking solicitor". She really doesn't get it that she is giving it away when you lose control of herself. Not like I will believe her 20 minutes later when she is all nice again. I spoke about this with the solicitor and she is fully aware of what STBX is doing. Neither me or the solicitor talk about STBX being PD but we both speak the same language and knows (that's why I picked this solicitor from the start).

Just need to get STBX to agree to the divorce and then push on with separation. Let's see if she can agree or not.

I am getting my strength up a bit and can see through the FOG a bit better. But I am bruised and tired.

EM:

It's nice to breathe the free air, but don't let your guard down.

It's better to set expectations for a full trial then proceed accordingly without hope for a settlement.  IME, faffing about with settlement talks is destructive, expensive and leads to demoralizing bouts of crushed hope a trial can be avoided.

Much better to avoid the stbx COMPLETELY, as you're working towards, prepare for trial and mitigate negatives. 

You're not quite to the point of settlement discussions.  When you are....
Ask for any settlement to be hand written at the meeting, filed and stamped THAT day by YOUR attorney with everyone signing the Agreement.... everyone....attorneys included.  You'll be reminded of this many times.

Have your ride or die list of things you MUST have in any settlement.  Make sure they're reasonable and child centered.

Do not give up anything equating to emotional suicide for you.....just draw a line and be prepared to defend it....go back to the children's best interest as often as necessary.

Be prepared to give up everything but your bottom line list.  You DO this to appear rational, reasonable and overtly willing to settle your case outside the courtroom so the court and attorneys understand you aren't the reason the court has to set trial dates and hear your case.

  It's likely your stbx will refuse to settle bc she wants to stay married.  stbx might pretend settle a few times then argue over details of the agreement she'll never sign till you're basically 6 months down the road and out if funds for a trial.  To limit time spent on settlement discussions is imperative and can move your case forward more quickly. 

The number one rule in settlement discussions is to never cancel a hearing or trial date until you have a signed, filed and stamped copy of your Agreement enforceable through the Courts.

The love bombing and the brief change in behaviour are all done to disconcert you, to gaslight you into doubting your own reality and experiences. It is done to ultimately break you and hoover you back in. You may even begin to think that you were to blame for all the upset but you weren't.

It's a constant complex mind game that you are enduring. Stay calm, resolute and strong. You are building your resilience. You have a plan. Don't deviate from it.

Trust your gut, not your head or your heart as they can lie to you.

You need peace. You don't need chaos and drama. You don't need abuse.

Don't minimise what has happened to you or make excuses for the abusive behaviour. It's so easy to do. I know as I've done it all myself.

If it hurts it isn't love.

We can get used to the brief intermittent periods of positive rewards when everything is calm, peaceful and SO wonderful. We can become addicted to those times as that is when dopamine, the feel good hormone, is released.

The abuser can become like a drug pusher handing out those feel good hormones that we crave. We can get hooked on them. Then the abuser takes them away. We need them back so endure and forgive any abuse to receive them again.

I never knew about this until it was explained to me. It can be why many abused people never leave their abuser. The trauma bond can be so toxic and we don't realise it.

I've witnessed so much extreme abusive behaviour by my uBPD/NPD sister. Other people wouldn't fully understand, if they haven't experienced it all for themselves.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

The sticking point at the moment is that STBX has not responded to the court if she is accepting my claim it is her fault, or if she is going to defend it and try to have the court throw it out and not allowing me to divorce her. She it trying to get me to agree to certain conditions before she accept the divorce with the claim it's her fault. If she doesn't accept it I will have to prove in the court that my claim is true, which I have no doubt I can, but would still want to avoid it. When she has shown her hand and responded either way we can push through with either the "easy" route or the one through court.

On another positive note, I got a call and the therapy services has a late cancellation and I got to speak to a therapist today. I will see her regularly from next week, I am looking forward to that.

Though just getting it done is the priority, I'm thinking you don't want to agree to her conditions.

The reason is that you have the total upper hand. You can prove what you need. Or if you choose you can switch to no fault soon. You have nothing whatsoever to gain by chipping away at your position, and it's likely just a tactic anyway where the goalposts will just get moved.

She is arguing about something really petty, which to me only can be because she wants to buy time and delay. But I agreed to her last request so we will see if she is going to do her bit, if she does it's a big win for me. If she doesn't, it's a big loss for her as I am confident I can convince the court and then the cost will go up which will be paid by her. The actual financial settlement and what happens to the children is not really dependent on this, although it can be affected in my favour if she tries it on with the court and fail. At the moment I am letting the solicitor deal with the strategy, I just want it over and done with and as fast as possible. STBX has been in doing her drama again, it really is making it difficult and I am struggle to work having her in and out like a jojo trying all kinds of tactics to get me involved and to change my mind. Latest thing is she now think we should go on a weekend break as a family, and when I told her it's a bad idea and stuck to thinking it's a bad idea I was called mean and asked why I was so nasty to her.  There is nothing I would love more than believing her and for her promises to actually be true, but I know it's not true and it's all a fantasy. So glad I will start therapy properly next week.

I am an absolute mental wreck right now, one second she is crying begging me to change my mind, next she is singing in the kitchen, then she comes and start talking about something trivial like all is normal, suddenly back to begging me, declaring how much she loves me, crying, getting angry shouting at the kids and then circling all this back and forth. It's like sitting in the middle of a hurricane, I have no idea what she is up to when I see her from one minute to the other. Now the latest is she want us to have a romantic dinner together, she loves me so much and all I need to know is to accept it and then we will be happy. Not one sorry for her abuse, she has changed she says and she was ill before and now she is better.

The only way I could see us staying together is to first divorce, split our finances, her to seek help and agree she needs help and work on her self and her anger. I know I have a better chance of winning the lottery (without playing) so won't put any hope on that happening. Whilst writing this  she came in, again, saying she lost her way a bit and has not been the best, but I am to blame too. I agree I am to blame for staying in her drama triangle, but I am in no way to blame for taking part in her abuse of me and for not understanding what I was dealing with.

I am not sure how I am supposed to work with her entering my room at any given time demanding attention. How do you explain to someone that the problem right now is that she is being nice? That she want to save the marriage? I would have thought that would be a pretty normal response for a normal person. But I can't see a non PD begging and love bombing for months? At some point would a normal get the point that the marriage is over, wouldn't they? I am not sure what to think anymore, I have been in her world for too long.

I'm sorry about her stopping you working. You said once you have a bad back, so presumably you can't rent a 'hot desk' somewhere ? Ask a friend if you can work at theirs ?
You'll never be able to see things from her point of view, EM. Any more than it looks like she can see yours . Or a cat can empathise with a mouse. She sounds totally chaotic and erratic. Even reading what you write is jaw dropping( ps you write very well).

You ARE getting there. Look at how far you've come since you first joined this group.
Good luck with the counsellor next week.

Thanks feralcat.

She says she actually accepted the divorce with the court today, if that's true that hurdle is gone and I don't need to fight her in court for the actual divorce. She has cried and begged and declared her love for me today, I am a mental wreck, totally exhausted. She has fought and screamed at the kids, they have screamed at her, she has cried, they have complained about her crying. I don't have the energy to involve myself to much in her childish fights with the kids, other than trying to be there for them. Especially GC is in terrible state with STBX at the moment, she is fighting back 100% and calling her out on her manipulations and passive aggressive tricks. I think she is starting to see, at least I hope she is. They are all out now and she is taking the kids to an activity, I dread to think what's going on, but I am enjoying the peace and calming down myself.

With this first hurdle gone (I will wait for confirmation from my solicitor before celebrating it) it's time to start thinking about moving out. I am not sure if I am mentally strong to see her crying like a wounded animal for much longer. I hate it. But, when she has told me today I am mean to her and is ruining her life I have started to push back telling her it was her own doing. I have no interest in getting into any discussion with her about it but I am starting to get angry. Maybe I need that anger to pull me through the next phase? 

I did manage to work a bit today, but it's hard to prepare meetings, concentrate and then run teams meeting with her in the house turning up in my room at any time. It would be ideal to work away, but unfortunately my back is in a bad state so need a proper workstation, cafés and hot desks only work for so long. 

One year ago I came home from the first time I left her, I cannot believe how far I have got since then.

EM

You should be proud of how far you have come - this isn't easy and don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise.

My ex did that please please stay love bombing between the filing of the papers and the final decree.  He tried so hard to win me back that I waffled everytime.  In the end to get him to stop I told "Here is my offer, and it is a sincere offer, the divorce goes through, money split, you work on your issues and two years we get back together but not married.  Never married again but if you love me and want to be with me, this is the only way."  He told me it was ridiculous and why not stay married - I told him he had hidden money from me (lots) and gas lit me for decades that we had none.  I wouldn't live that way anymore.  He shut up and never asked again.  The love bombing stopped.  Whether he still sought help - i have no idea because he has never once suggested we try again.  In fact I found out he started dating two months after the divorce was finalized.

I hope you get confirmation soon and can move to more peaceful life soon.

You've done so well. Congratulate yourself for all that you have achieved.

You'll feel so much better when you move out.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

Thanks for all your encouraging messages.

This morning her mask slipped, the kids started fighting (again) and she always involves herself with shouting at them. The kids always try to get each other into trouble, and they love when STBX tells the other one off. I stay away from them when this happens as it always ends up being me  in trouble. Today it escalated and STBX came in screaming at me for being lazy etc for staying away. Got to try to calm the situation, as expected it didn't help and then STBX started screaming at me in front of the kids and then told me in front of them I can have custody and she doesn't want them. After this GC started screaming at me as well, she always think it is fair game to scream and swear at me as soon as STBX has done so. I am trying really hard to do low contact in the house and to stay away from STBX and these situations. However, I feel good that I didn't raise my voice, I told both girls off for being mean to each other and tried to calm them down, with a screaming PD in the background.  I really can't wait to have my own place, preferable with custody of the kids.

Do I have to add that STBX behaved like nothing had happened as soon as I came back from driving SG to school?

I'm sorry, EM but I don't know what "telling off" means.

When you tell your children not to fight or not to scream at you or tell them off... what does that actually look like?

And.... did you record the stbx screaminng at you and telling you she wants you to have full custody of the girls?

Of STBX screaming at you then gc joining her in screaming at you?

I think your children are in crisis...... stbx will continue slipping more deeply into chaotic behaviors, IME.  You're struggling to share space with the stbx.  Are there any updates from your attorney regarding protection for the children or timeline for your moving out?

I know yu continue to hope stbx agrees to the divorce, but I don't think she will.  All the small things she brinngs up will continue, then turn to medium thing then back to small and large and everything in between....like dangling a carrot in front of you..... requiring you DO things in order for her to make more promises or SAY she'll settle then she'll yank the football out, like Charlie Brown and Lucy, IME.

And I do hope I'm wrong this time, but I believe a trial is your least painful, quickest way out.

Don't fear trial.  Press every advantage at every moment........ don't give the stbx an inch until she's signed off on Court documents and your attorney files them.

Sorry hhaw, maybe it's a wording I picked up by STBX as she has many weird wordings. With telling off I mean telling the girls they should not fight, they should not swear and that they should be nice to each other. When STBX is "telling them off" she is threatening them with that she is going to lose her temper, swearing at them, calling them mean and screaming.

Yes I got it all on a voice recording, all from how it started to the end.

I absolutely agree the children are in crisis, but I am close now, and the more STBX is letting her mask slip the less they want to be with her.

According to STBX she actually agreed to the divorce and accepted the petition from the court. I am just waiting for confirmation, her solicitor had also said she agreed so if she lied and didn't do it her solicitor would probably be annoyed with her. If she has agreed to it, there is "only" the finances and custody to agree. Finances have started, I am not sure how long time that takes to sort out. Custody, if she keep behaving like she does I will go for full custody and play my tapes for whoever needs to hear them.

I am a bit exhausted right now, both from her dramas but working through this as well. But I have sat in meetings all day and avoided her which has been like a rest (at least mentally).

As they say on the planes, take the oxygen mask first and then help the children. I do my best with the kids, but unless I can breath I am of no use for them.

You're doing great, EM.

Just don't fall for the settlement talk trick, bc  I'm not gonna lie.......
It will knock your sanity out if your body for a day or two.  Maybe three but expect a trial while talking hopefully about it a settlement and remember to ask politely for a hand written Agreement AT any conference to be signed buy all parties and walked to the file clerk's office by your attorney.

Remember not to cancel ANYTHING in court based on a PD promise.  Ever.

EM, I just saw a blog post that you might find helpful. It is on the website of divorce coach Karen Covy (karencovy.com). If you click on the blog link, you'll see the post, titled Co-Parenting with a Narcissist v. Parallel Parenting: Which is Better?

Hi  EM
I am hearing you. I am almost done with financial separation part. Just need her to sign. I am feeling like you. My head is not able to explode though as it just can't get that someone can do what she has done, is doing.
Just hang in. I now know I am not alone and not crazy. Thank you.
I have a therapist and he listens. Was going to work on building me back up but switched to listen and support and sane checking. He is a great listener and then a subtle pointer of direction.
All I can offer is remember it is nothing you can fix but something you can manage. If anyone can manage the situation you are in it would have to be you. You have been doing it for a long time and would be acutely aware of what you need to do to get to where you want to. But it helps having a sounding board.

EM:

Think about how your stbx might destroy your ability to run your company.....who she might smear you to or documents she might alter or accounts she might empty or whatever you can imagine.....double it then expect worse, IME.

I already understand the stbx depends on the family business income which make irrational destructive behaviors impossible to understand until you remember.....some PDs employ a scorched earth policy.....even if destroying you means destruction of themselves and shared children.

Be as proactive as you can be with this and all aspects of your life. 

You're already the parent participating with other parents.....keep that up and make sure those parents have a true idea what's going on....for your childrens'sake and your sake, alike.  So the stbx can't claim you're an abusive monster and turn them into flying monkeys willing to testify against you.

Thanks for all your support, it really helps to have you all here.

hhaw, it's not like she is actually destroying my work but she is wearing me down. I am pulling myself up to get through meetings etc, but I really struggle to motivate myself to actually get things done. I am completely worn down, and my best chance of rest is during the day when I am supposed to work. I have gone from being able to work upwards 200 hours a month to just about push myself to do 50 hours, I don't want to get back to working that much again but it would be nice to be able to if needed. As soon as the workday finish I do all I can to hide, pretending to work, but all I do is staring at the screen. All to avoid her and to keep as low contact as possible. I am really putting all my energy into just surviving at the moment, I am so pleased I laid the groundwork for the divorce as I have no idea how I could have found energy to start the process now. I really hope I can get the go ahead to move out soon, I think it is close but not close enough. At least it helps to be Out of the FOG, although that makes it harder in some aspects as there is no relief as I know all niceness is a mask.

This is at more than five pages, so per site guidelines I'm locking it.

Good discussion, feel free to start another thread to keep it going!