Husband thinks I’m exaggerating and too sensitive

[Hepatica]

Hi Amedee,

I just had a conversation about an hour ago with my husband about how different it is to grow up with a covertly disordered family. Things are really well hidden (although got steadily worse only as my parents hit their late 70's) but when my husband met my sister and parents and even my extended family, he was completely charmed by them. He perceived no obvious problems, meaning no alcoholism, no overt drug abuse, no physical violence. My dad had a prestigious job. My sister had a big house and nice husband who worked for the government in management. It took a long time for my family's mask to slip and my husband only saw weirdness when we moved to my home town and he began to see them regularly, before I lowered my contact. And their covert abuse and toxicity was really only apparent if we stayed overnight for a few days with my sister - like at Christmas -and we began to witness her popping percocet and seeing strange behaviour - her pity plays, her dizzy spells, her need to dominate in a waify way. This only came after the mask had fallen by the second day.

In fact, my husband admitted me to a few years ago, that he had thought that I was blowing things out of proportion until he finally saw enough unusual things for himself. This took years and when he got it he really got it. I guess the thing that he did well was he never said he didn't believe me.

Perhaps this is why I too have lived in such a FOG, because I too doubted myself for so many years, because everything they did was so so covert. I still find myself teasing out situations where i was hurt and reminding myself that the actions were not normal. I still feel confused.

I don't know if you have some really specific examples of what they did to you growing up that might help your husband get it? I finally told my husband very specific things, as if I were spelling it out to him. I'm not sure it worked but I think it helped, so that when he began to see patterns in their behaviour over time, he was more attuned to them. He tends to only see the good in people, very rose coloured glasses, so over time he'd see things, and even his rose coloured glasses began to tarnish.

I think what I have to work on really hard now, and perhaps you as well, is believing ourselves. I struggle with this so much bc the abuse by my father was so subtle and almost like a language of its own. Anyone on the outside would miss what he was doing, but he knew where to hit me in the most painful places that only he and i knew. One example is my mental health. I suffered the most in the family with depression (BECAUSE OF THEM!) but he always said I was too sensitive. Basically a weakling. Recently my father said in a flippant tone to me that I should go see my therapist (because he didn't agree with a choice I was making.) He said this in front of my husband and my husband saw first hand how cruel my father can be, making a flippant comment about mental health when he'd bruised me with this for years. It really opened my husband's eyes.

I hope that you can trust yourself and you can work this out with your husband. Covert abuse is a really tough go. I think our general society needs a massive introductory course on it, because I've had more than one person in my life be puzzled as to why I distance from my charming FOO. It seems people only accept no contact or low contact if they know your parent is an alcoholic or drug addict, or something more blatantly obvious.

[Amedee]

Hepatica,

"I think what I have to work on really hard now, and perhaps you as well, is believing ourselves. I struggle with this so much bc the abuse by my father was so subtle and almost like a language of its own."

This was my father exactly!  I adored him for as long as I can remember, and was def. his favorite over my  siblings.  It is only in recent years that it has dawned on me how hurtful that must have been to my mother and siblings who got very little attention and no affection from him.  From my vantage point, I was just hustling for very erratic scraps of love, since my mother pretty much never touched me or looked me in the eye - unless I was in trouble.

Talking to him was always exhausting, and I could not see the cat and mouse game that was intrinsic to our interactions.  Like pretending he could not hear so I'd have to repeat.  Pretending not to understand, so I'd flounder.  Pretending to forget, so I had to repeat the same story over and over and over again.  Pretending to fall asleep while I was talking, only to "wake up" with a smirk as soon as I stopped.  Looking pained if I actually got animated.  I learned early on to carefully curate my conversations with them to be a short and appealing as possible.  And lest you think I'm being heartless toward an old man - he *never* pulled those tricks on anyone he wanted to impress.  The man was a scholar and sharp as a whip to the end.

When I made a very brave life choice that went against their plans for me, he along with my mother became relentless.  I moved to a new, very well known school.  For the first year and longer, in every phone conversation he would ask:  "So, which school are you in, exactly?".  This was just the tip of the word-salad iceberg.  I couldn't call him on his crap, because I had learned early on that only awful things can come from that.  And everything was plausibly deniable.  It became so absurd and so hurtful - I only hung in there because he was so old.
i
A few years ago I visited for a week, and he (and the rest of the family) were so covertly horrific, I wept in front of my brother and his wife.  (Something I *never* do).  When I told them what Dad was doing, they looked at me with horror and contempt, and said "but Amedee ... he's *old*!!".  Yeah, I'm the heartless @-hole.

This is just one example.

Others I'm sure you are familiar with is the absence of friendly curiosity.  If it made them look good they wanted to hear all about it ... as long as I didn't get too big for my britches.  Otherwise they would just talk over me.  My mother could not be trusted with anything personal ... she was really never in my corner, and liked sticking it to me now and then.

Especially at my age, my complaints sound so petty if you never experienced the relentlesness of it yourself.  When I got married not long ago, I went into deep dark emotional flashbacks.  It was really awful.  Thankfully I found a good trauma therapist who helped me see what was going on.  This was hard on my husband, because I blamed the feelings on him.  He has no idea how dark those emotions were, and still can be at times.  How could he.  I did look crazy, and I feel crazy when he brings my family up in invalidating ways.

Ugh, I'm rambling on.  I relate to other points you wrote too, maybe I'll respond more later.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Amedee - when I say my DH is "supportive to a T", what I mean by that is he will always want to be my husband, he will not leave me, and he will be a partner with me in financial things and in our work together. I know he is my rock and won't take off for anyone else/some other life. We give each other advice etc. and the basic idea of support is there.

When it comes to emotional issues, though, that's a very different matter altogether. Like you say about your husband, my husband *definitely* has a mind of his own (which is good) and empathy can be lacking, he can forge ahead in stupid ways. He is emotionally immature. He can be tone deaf. Certain aspects of his personality have been rough around the edges, gruesome, and have required LOTS of softening down over the years. I could tell you a lot more about him that would also make him come off as a less than wonderful guy. Underneath it all, he has a heart of gold, and I know it. And it only matters that I know it, no one else.

My FOO has even made attempts to make me see my DH as an abusive person. Their attempts failed, instead revealing themselves to be the abusive ones. And yes, it's been extremely, extremely subtle, like your family, which messes with me on a regular basis. My husband has even taken their abuse towards HIM in stride and thinks it must mean he himself really is a bad person. Ahahahahah, no. This messes with me too though. But it was my last straw.

Long story short: you get to decide if your partner is good for you or not. Not your family. Not outsiders looking in. Only you. Otherwise, there's no sense of empowerment in deciding to stay (or leave) a relationship at all and you're not deciding your relationships for you, someone else is. And there's no sense of freedom to be who you are, either. Only you know the answers and there's no need to defend.

[Amedee]

DistanceNotDefense,

I appreciate your clarification ... I really do!  Because that describes my husband, too.  How measured and articulate you and others here are is very validating, too.  If you know what I mean.  You have given this a great deal of thought.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Amedee, glad you've gotten something out of it  You and and I are in very similar shoes. And also the symptoms of trauma being aimed at husband. It's what started my whole healing process. I SO relate there.

[Hepatica]

Amedee,

Your example of your father pretending not to know what you school you were at is spot on. I found too with my family, if I experienced any success in my life, their need to draw me back down emerged. I didn't begin to pick this up until I was in my mid-forties. If I decided to take an interesting class at uni, my sister would stare at me, mouth dropped open, and then wait for me to finish, feign a dizzy spell and say, oh how I wish I could take classes. The next hour I would be encouraging her to try and she'd say things like, "no my migraines are too bad." The zinger comment she made to me that actually got to me was when she said, after I'd completed a really big deal class for me, she said that she couldn't believe I didn't feel old next to all the young twenty year olds. I walked away from her feeling so old and embarrassed that I never went back to take any more classes. I felt so embarrassed to be around the younger students. (I really have to let that go.)

When my child was young I wrote a little detective story book that he and I had made up, printing it out to make it look like a real book. I gave them to my family for Christmas, because the main (hero) detective character was based on my Dad and the young character was based on my son, and I thought it was cute. None of them read it. My Dad never once said a thing about it. The book basically disappeared. This was when I woke up.

It seemed to me that if I didn't act needy or waify or depressive, they would work to try to sabotage my healthier self-esteem. I felt like being around them was like being around vampires. They sucked all the good out of themselves and tried to do it to me.

Walking away from them was the only choice for me, because once I'd spotted these patterns and that very covert nature of their sabotage, I couldn't unsee it.

I totally get what you wrote about your father and family. Remember that old Gaslight film. It's worth a re-watch. The sinister nature of another, through psychological gaslighting, is so scary and dangerous. When you can't call someone on what they are doing, it feels like torture.

[Amedee]

" When you can't call someone on what they are doing, it feels like torture."

Yes.  This.  It does feel like torture.  And that torture doubles down when you try to unburden yourself with a safe person, and they look at you like you have two heads.  Oh for the life and vitality I have wasted with ruminating and being depressed.  I always thought I was just hopelessly melancholic by nature - and even my depression I hid from FOO so as not to be attacked for that weakness.  Turns out I am not melancholic at all.  I love being vigorous and happy.  The depression was actually 100% grief and sadness and loneliness.

[Hepatica]

Turns out I am not melancholic at all.  I love being vigorous and happy.  The depression was actually 100% grief and sadness and loneliness.

Exactly. I feel the same way. As soon as I walked away from the toxicity my symptoms of anxiety and depression subsided. I am off antidepressants now. But when the FOO pop back into my life (I live in the same town  ) I get flashbacks and find myself overwhelmed and definitely feels like grief.

[Yael924]

 It's late, and it's been a long week, so forgive my bluntness.

You've known your family 40+ years. DH knew them for a week.

Does your DH really believe he has a better understanding of the situation than you do?

So I break the answer down to a binary. Yes or no.

If yes: Wow. Clearly, he is some kind of super intelligent clairvoyant. Might I gently suggest a job day-trading? Setting up his own psychic network website? He would make millions. I mean, it's so ridiculous!    Obviously, you are blessed that someone so excruciatingly intuitive grace you with his presence. 

If no: Double wow. So he's willing to make his partner uncomfortable and unhappy so he can vacation at somebody's fancy summer home? Hang with the cool kids? What does that say about how important his wants are compared to your needs? Is he selfish, or just being willfully blind? 

I don't know which is worse. But I get so frustrated with how kind we ladies all are. (Our FOO trained us well) We make sure to list these guys great qualities, and put so much work and effort into not hurting their feelings, despite the fact that they keep telling us we are oversensitive. If they can be such total doofuses to us, I vote we stop trying to excuse the behavior.

I remember finally having it *up to here* with the whole "too sensitive" thing and finally snapping eDad " Has it ever occurred to you that it's just that you're INsensitive?"

His face:   

Nope, never crossed his mind.

I have no answers here, but I'm angry on your behalf. It hurts so much when the person you love doesn't believe you. It's OK to be hurt.  Hang in there.

[nanotech]

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but my husband took years longer than me to really see it.
It was exacerbated by the fact that he was cut off from his own ( healthy) family ( long story involving much politics).
Due to hubby's family not being around, he was all the more keen to get on well with mine. I was in the FOG.  too, then. So I probably encouraged that. 
PDs are such charmers and they can seem to be fun people.

Eventually as they aged, the masks began to slip. Then a family crisis caused the family to blow up- I was scapegoated severely as someone had to take the blame, and I as the 'fixer', had failed.
After that it was a case of having to stop my husband from fish slapping them one by one. 
One thing you could do-
Why not journal some of your childhood/ adult experiences?
Then show those to your husband?
This could help.
He may be looking for a replacement for his own family.
Tell him how 'charming' they can be, but that they weren't very charming to you. They were cold and distant.  They were abusive, and you really don't want to see them or hear from them.
Tell him that when he shows interest in them or talks about them admiringly, you feel invalidated, upset and hurt. Tell him you know he's not intending that, but that's what happens.
Ask him to trust you on this.
And have patience with that trust.
It will grow. At the moment I think he's responding to the glitz and the glitter they throw in the eyes of newcomers.
But the masks do slip. They can't keep it all up.
That, plus your experiences will make it clearer for him.

Also, remember that you don't NEED his validation at all.
My hubby is  on my side but even very recently he suggested that I should perhaps reach out ( due to the pandemic)
Husband and son both sat there at the dinner table and agreed that I should contact   my bullying, histrionic UNPD sister  'because she lives on her own'.
I could have knocked their heads together! Instead, I took a deep breath and said,
'Pass the gravy,'   
I knew I wasn't going to do it. They shouldn't have asked me, but I'm aware that they can't quite know what I went through with her, since birth. That 'being the bigger person' with her, just feeds the disorder and hurts me.
Who would knowingly hurt themselves?

[Mintstripes]

I could never be with someone who didn't believe me, prioritize my feelings and respect my experiences and trauma.

[TwentyTwenty]

I'm sorry for the situation and stories here.

I feel very very fortunate about my spouse and her agreement with me in the issue. Once I can to realize the fact that my parents were harming me, I said 'We'll never be able to be around them again.' And she said 'I agree, and don't want them around our child, either.'

And that was that.

[Mintstripes]

I'm sorry for the situation and stories here.

I feel very very fortunate about my spouse and her agreement with me in the issue. Once I can to realize the fact that my parents were harming me, I said 'We'll never be able to be around them again.' And she said 'I agree, and don't want them around our child, either.'

And that was that.

This is exactly how it should be.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I'm sorry for the situation and stories here.

I feel very very fortunate about my spouse and her agreement with me in the issue. Once I can to realize the fact that my parents were harming me, I said 'We'll never be able to be around them again.' And she said 'I agree, and don't want them around our child, either.'

And that was that.

This is exactly how it should be.

I agree with you. I really do. This is the highest standard or ideal there is. Some of us, however, have amazing partnerships with spouses and come to realize the truth about our families and our trauma in the midst of these marriages. It's fully understandable that a spouse would need some time understanding or seeing things 100% from your perspective (and maybe never 100%) and sometimes completely fail or be imperfect at it for a while or at first. I think it's a somewhat dangerous idea to put out there that these marriages or relationships should thus be thrown away or fled from, because they are not what they "should" be (and I know no one's saying that word-for-word). Everyone's "should" is different, when it really comes down to it. Unless you would really rather be alone, in that case, go for it. I have extreme admiration for people who find their own company millions of times better than anyone else's and friendship/companionship is completely auxiliary for them....still, companionship is a human need.

Even if partners gain some understanding, they might not get 100% of it, ever. How could they? Unless they went through the exact same ordeal. But if they're still by your side and trying, though imperfectly, and willing to be your partner in life now until forever, and see it as a long term journey of learning, that's what matters. If they look at you point blank and say however, or communicate through their actions more or less, that your trauma or feelings don't matter, or that they're not real and you should just get over it and make do with abusive family, then yes, that's something to really consider leaving your marriage over or doing some real emotional overhaul with.

Your partner's support might not look like or feel like exactly the support or understanding you deeply want sometimes. That's just a fact of life. It's the same with friendships. Your friend can't be everything for you. A partner can't be everything for you either, let alone someone who is equipped to help you through CPTSD. (Hell, most therapists are unequipped to help people through CPTSD.) If, however, your partner IS magically everything for you and catering to your every single emotional need and experience influenced by past trauma, one must wonder whether you're doing all of that for them in return...and if they might be codependent and stifling their own emotional needs and boundaries to make that happen.

We tend to project what we didn't receive from our early caregivers onto our lovers and partners. That's established throughout quite a bit of couples' psychology. For those of us who have been deeply physically/psychically/emotionally abused or neglected by parents, hoping your partner makes up for being the parent(s)/ parental love you never had can be self-defeating because your ideals can be extreme to protect you against any past hurt (unless you really do feel like you're better off alone and never get lonely). It's a fantasy of the ideal love and nurturing you never received (because you never got the normal/realistic/healthy package - I know I definitely daydreamed about fantasy relationships throughout my youth, especially about men that would "fix everything" for me!) and our traumatic reactions/flashbacks, in response to any love that seems imperfect, can be over-protective and self-sabotaging. But ALL human beings are imperfect...so how do you manage?

I realize often that I subconsciously create criteria for human relationships that most people couldn't possibly meet. As a result, I am lonely, but I realize that is a condition of my diagnosis whether I'm around people or not. I think people need to be careful that they're not holding out for their fantasies to ever become reality, and putting real yet imperfect companionships on hold while wishing for this fantasy to materialize. Sussing out what is abusive to you versus what is undesirable yet tolerable (and that can be worked on) can be helpful.

I'm so very sorry if this comes off as blunt. I just spent over a year of therapy after my CPTSD diagnosis internalizing this fact and it saved my wonderfully imperfectly perfect (or perfectly imperfect) marriage that my NPD-infected FOO was intent on tearing apart.

You can either throw things in the waste bin because they're not what they "should" be, or you can continue the journey of marriage with your partner towards better understanding and support of one another, if your partner shows all signs of being on board (or displays a different "love language"), which is as perfect a marriage as it gets.

[Mintstripes]

Distance: To me, the line is clear. You either have my back or you don't. It's just not that complicated. And maybe that means I'm not wired for a relationship again, I don't know. But I do know that I don't engage with apologists and chosen people need to be unequivocally on my side.

[GettingOOTF]

Distance: To me, the line is clear. You either have my back or you don't. It's just not that complicated. And maybe that means I'm not wired for a relationship again, I don't know. But I do know that I don't engage with apologists and chosen people need to be unequivocally on my side.

This is my approach. Yes there is room for compromise in any relationship but healthy relationships have deal breakers. This is one of mine. I will never again be with a partner who thinks they know how something impacts me more than I do. If I tell someone about my family or my past I expect them to 100% take what I say at face value. It's not an invitation for them to try to change my mind or gaslight me about my very own experiences.

This is one of those "waste basket" issues for me. And there is nothing wrong with walking away from any relationship that does not support you in the areas you need to be supported in.

[Hilltop]

Amedee my Dh didn't really get it either as my family were so nice to him.  They did slip up and say some things which were outrageous such as when he said he liked to take care of me and wanted to make a nice life for me my mother replied "why would you want to do that for her".  Ok then.  My Dh use to say they were weird but harmless.

A little while ago we went out to lunch with them and they let the jabs fly in front of him.  When we left I said nothing but DH said  to me that something was off but he couldn't put his finger on it.  He said that they seemed upset but fine, they seemed to be rude but he wasn't sure, he said there were some insults but he didn't understand why or if he mistook the situation.  That's when I said to him that that right there is what I was talking about when I would go see them and come home upset.  One jab after another, the feeling of being uneasy and not sure, things seem fine and not fine, it's confusing, unsettling.  As I said to him "Would you want to go see them if that's what you get every time, just this weird run around with jabs and a feeling that something is off but they pretend everything is fine". So now he understands a bit better, but it took him to experience it himself to fully get it.

So don't doubt yourself, you know your family better and they are most likely putting on a charming effort with your DH.  I remember my DH was going to invest and my father laughed at him and mocked us telling us "what do you think that you will become rich or something".  Dh gave him the benefit of the doubt and just said he didn't understand however it had the effect of us doubting ourselves.  Now when we look back our ideas would have been very beneficial, when I look back, I see that the conversation wasn't harmless.  My parents didn't want us to succeed. If you feel like your family doesn't have your best interests at heart they probably don't, trust yourself. 

[Boat Babe]

Heya. As said above, your DH doesn't get it because he's never seen it before (lucky him) or he has problems regarding your feelings about your FOO. The second one is the one to watch as it might be a red flag and if not is certainly unskillful on his part.

So in this situation, continue to work on your healing from FOO abuse. This will strengthen your sense of self and worth and purpose. Always a good thing 😁 Practice being assertive with everyone in your life. Assertive statements about your boundaries said from a place of calm and good self regard are powerful tools. And don't forget to breathe !

[Poppy]

Hi Amedee,

I don't know how or why your husband responds the way he does and neither can you right now I suppose.

What I think is important though is not to try and make him see your point of view. Maybe he doesn't get it, or doesn't want to get it.
What he does need to accept is that it really isn't up to him. We don't need to understand or even agree with our spouse's choices regarding their FOO (or any other issues, really) to still be supportive.

You said in a previous post you wanted to tell him how this makes you feel if he is invalidating. What I think might be more effective for now is say what you DO need.

You can say "when I bring up my family, it is to share my feelings about the subject. I don't need or want your opinion, but only your ear and a supportive shoulder to lean on as my husband. Can you please try that next time?" And when he does tell you how he sees the situation, you can ask him to remember what you asked of him.

Asking for what we need is more clear and powerful. When we think/say someone else MADE us feel a certain way, we give away our own power. No one makes us feel a certain way. It does impact us, obviously, but remember we have power over our own emotions. It's a tricky difference and one that took a while for me to truly grasp, but it has helped me tremendously. I and I alone decide how I feel. If I do get overwhelmed or sad or whatever, I can take some time to sit with the feeling and find out what is at the root of it. And be kind to myself and look for a way to make it better. Sometimes that is acceptance that people don't understand.

It is important though to look into if this is a pattern that is at play in other parts of your marriage as well. It struck me that you said you went into a dark place around the time of your marriage. Are you sure you're not repeating the patterns of your FOO in your marriage? Is he not in some way a replacement for your father and how he treated you? We are so conditioned to recognize abuse as love if that's all we've ever known...

I hope your husband is willing to see you and your needs and is willing to learn what it is that you need from him as a partner. And that you will get to a point that you don't feel too sensitive (you're NOT!) or like you're taking up too much space. Regardless of what anyone tells us. You have EVERY right to feel however you feel. We all do. It is never up to someone else to put a cap on that. Trust yourself, trust your decision to go NC and be confident you do not need to explain or justify anything to anyone.

[Amedee]

I just came back and read all the new replies.  All very thought-provoking.  DistanceNotDefense (!), Hepatica, Nanotech, Hilltop, Boat Babe ... Yes.  I identify strongly with things you wrote.

Hub is a very good man, and just like me still has lots of growing and learning to do.  Walling myself off because he won't support me just the way I need it - that doesn't work for me.   Like Distance said - many therapists don't even understand CPTSD from emotional neglect and covert abuse!  This relatively new marriage is the greatest self-improvement project I've ever embarked upon.  He's also the first to admit how much he is learning and growing thanks to me!

  My shiny sparkly FOO has a lot of VERY well hidden pain, and I seem to have always been the most convenient lightning rod for it.  But the behaviors tend to look so "normal", or sound so kooky and almost laughable when I describe them  ... I have all but given up trying to explain it to anyone. 

With the holidays approaching, I realized that my single biggest problem remains my own self doubt.  I straddle the fence, internally - for the same reasons my husband is drawn to me family.  Because they can be so genuinely likable - and they really like him.  It would be highly unusual to see overt mean behaviors - even those, a detached person could easily brush off.  I can now, too, see how the unhealthy relational patterns go back generations.   Rarely being super-toxic.  Keeping up appearances, while sweeping difficult emotions under the rug.   

My siblings and I all experienced the same emotional neglect.  There is practically zero true warmth or empathy in my FOO.  - even though that's hard to see from the outside.  I can see their scars, but they are doing well in life.  The twist with me is that I got triangled into my parents' (secretly) loveless marriage.  Father doted on me as his favorite child - but in a very selfish, ultimately devouring way.  And I fed his ego with my childish adoration - the only "love" I could get.  Mother resented me intensely, but of course will *never* admit to that - so it shall always remain a closely guarded secret.  I have a suspicion she hopes to win my H over to "her" side, too.  Everything's a secret, because we don't "do" difficult emotions.  My existence triggers their pain and shame, but it has to remain unspoken.  It is SO well hidden.  If I speak up at all, I am the "crazy" one.  Case closed.  It has been extremely hard to see the problem wasn't just me, and healing will be a lifelong journey.   Drawing a line and taking a hard stand is not at all easy.  I have realized, though, that this is my job alone.  How can I realistically expect my husband to support this, if I don't even respect it myself?

The good news:  My marriage has challenged me to get off the fence Regarding FOO.  I am now 99% no contact, save for very minimal birthday emails.  It has become easier for me to adopt a "let the chips fall where they may" attitude.   Since it's obvious to extended family that I am basically abandoning my elderly widowed mother - and there is no realistic way to explain it -  I am effectively self-exiling from my entire family.   At least for the foreseeable future.  That hurts in more ways than I can even say.  (Although in all these years, not one has ever reached out to me to see how I'm doing - except for recently one flying monkey uncle.  What does that say?)

Taking this hard stand is having a mighty fog-clearing effect.  I am approaching the place where I can feel more calm about my choice.  I can speak about it more calmly and matter-of-fact and less from the standpoint of a confused victim.  "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change".   Do I wish he backed me 100%?  Hell, yeah.  I need to do it for myself first, though.