C-PTSD

[IRedW77]

Hi all,

I keep seeing references to this. I read a bit about it myself and I have questions. I'm also noticing that people seems to keep mentioning it in response to MY posts, so...

First, it's something I'm probably going to ask my therapist about, but I'm a bit reluctant. He's already concerned that I might have a tendency to spend too much time with this stuff right now.

That being said, it also seems to be something that exists in the international psychological disorders manual, but it's not officially recognized in the U.S.

I've read what I can find about diagnostic criteria. Everything says that first you have PTSD symptoms and diagnosis and then you have C-PTSD if you have the additional symptoms.

I have just about ALL of the additional symptoms that make it C-ptsd, but I don't know about the underlying PTSD.

Interpersonal Disturbances—check
Negative Self-Concept—check
Affect Dysregulation —check

BUT
I don't have hyper vigilance, or avoidance, and I don't have flashbacks or nightmares to the best of my knowledge and understanding of what those entail. 

It seems like a lot of people here have had this diagnosis—especially people in the U.K. which there seem to be a lot of here.

I welcome any and all thoughts and input.

Thanks!

[Hepatica]

Hi IRedW77,

I am no expert in any way. I was diagnosed last year when I began working with a new therapist. When I explained these weird days where I was thrown into an unregulated state that might last hours, or days (really ramped up when things got bad with my elderly parents a few years ago during my mother's health crisis. Their old, terrible behaviour erupted and I began to really remember how bad they could be) I would end up in bed in tears until the emotions passed and I had no idea why it kept happening.

I had been told before this that I merely suffered depression, but I have never fit the criteria for depression, because my symptoms never last 14 days or longer. What I learned was I was experiencing flashbacks and I had no idea bc I thought flashbacks had a visual component and only happened to people who experienced a natural disaster or war. But with C-PTSD it is an emotional flashback, and you're switched into a hopeless feeling, pretty much despair and I still don't know what sets it off for me. I did notice I would feel thrown for a time after visiting my parents but it could also happen with a emotional things within my own FOO. Often with how I felt after an argument with my son.

I don't think it's abnormal or wrong to want to delve into this and want to know more. There was something on FB I read to my  husband the other day, about how society has labeled so many of us with mental illness (depression, anxiety, etc) when we actually are living our lives with trauma and old survival patterns that look so much like mental illness.

The best thing for me was to read Pete Walker's book CPTSD - From Surviving to Thriving. To me it finally described my experience of my life after moving out of my parents. I was walking wounded for years with survival patterns that really didn't work out in the real world.

That book is great. Consider how much your therapist has been educated about this. As far as spending too much time on the subject, I think this is a normal response to wanting to uncover the unconscious that has been running our lives following a toxic childhood. We just want to know how to fix ourselves. And I honestly, finally believe we can. I have come so far now that I'm working with a therapist who has training in trauma. It's honestly changed my life. This forum is also really, really good to remind me that I am OK. I am not permanently damaged. I can heal. My flashbacks are so infrequent now. I don't spend 2 days in bed upset. I may disregulate but i get it under wraps so much faster now, with a whole new toolbox of positive self-regard and compassion. It's an incredible difference after years of going to therapists who did not address my trauma at all. I did not see any recovery then.

There are probably many other books on this but I've only read Peter Walkers book. Good luck with all of this. You're on the right track.

[IRedW77]

Thanks Hepatica. I always appreciate your threads and posts. I feel a lot of camaraderie in  the things you share. There's a lot that's familiar, so I value your input.

I did start reading his book. I have a bit of a hard time with it, just because his style is not a good fit for me, but I'm focusing on the content and it seems valuable and relatable so far.

I did a bit more reading about emotional flashbacks or "implicit flashbacks" and that actually makes a lot of sense and I very definitely do experience those.

The idea I got from reading elsewhere is that the flashbacks are so confusing because they're pre-verbal emotions. Or they're emotions that were recorded separately from the language center of our brains. They're overwhelming and confusing because they're just raw emotions and we can't build a narrative around them to be able to properly comprehend them. Like, you can't stop feeling hurt if you can't comprehend exactly what it is that hurt you.

So that's the flashbacks piece covered.

I guess the hyper-vigilance piece is maybe my hair trigger reaction to unexpected anger. I'm not always on guard, but I have a startle-like response to unexpected anger. That triggers an emotional flashback every time. I respond defensively before my brain even realizes what's happening and then I turn all the anger and (usually guilt at an overreaction) inward and just try to destroy myself.

After my anger passes I feel like I'm feeling someone else's feelings for a day or more. I'll go sleep on the couch, or if it's really bad I'll sleep on the floor in the most uncomfortable position I can find. I used to go sleep under the bed. And all of it is totally ridiculous, but you just can't stop yourself. If someone tries to help you push them away. 

I still don't see the avoidance criteria being met, but maybe it is in some way I don't understand yet.

I don't know why I'm so interested in matching a diagnosis, but I'm someone that always craves answers and explanations for everything.

My T will tell me "fake it till you make it" with some CBT stuff. I sometimes feel like I just can't make him understand that I can't make myself fake it if I don't understand the bigger picture. I'm not someone that accepts "no" well. And I'm not someone that will do anything if I don't understand why I'm meant to do it. I guess I'm totally rambling now, but I always make sure there's a "why" behind anything I tell my kids to do if they feel the need to ask.

Anyway, thanks

[Hepatica]

Dear IRed,

I really relate to every single thing you've written. First of all, Pete Walker's book. I found it really hard to read. It threw me and I had to read it and put it down and sometimes it caused a flashback for me. There must be a more soothing book out there.

I guess the hyper-vigilance piece is maybe my hair trigger reaction to unexpected anger. I'm not always on guard, but I have a startle-like response to unexpected anger. That triggers an emotional flashback every time. I respond defensively before my brain even realizes what's happening and then I turn all the anger and (usually guilt at an overreaction) inward and just try to destroy myself.

After my anger passes I feel like I'm feeling someone else's feelings for a day or more. I'll go sleep on the couch, or if it's really bad I'll sleep on the floor in the most uncomfortable position I can find. I used to go sleep under the bed. And all of it is totally ridiculous, but you just can't stop yourself. If someone tries to help you push them away.

I could have written this. That's why I sometimes call it an emotional flu. It rages through and it won't be willed away.

No matter how much I tried, I had to surrender to the feelings until they passed naturally. I'm not sure the CBT style works well for this. CBT always added shame to my experience because I wanted to control it and put on my happy face. The thing for trauma with me, is the only thing that is working is compassionate self-talk. I've built this up with mindfulness meditation by creating an inner voice that is kind to myself.

And the anger. I have a hair trigger response too, only with my husband and son. I think it's because I feel safe, whereas a child, they were bigger and scary and to talk back would have been dangerous. I've held in so much anger that it is stored inside of me and when it comes out wrong, wow! ... the shame. Because i don't want to be like my parents were to me.

I am trying to work with anger now and I do think there has to be a physical component release to it. But first of all, recognizing it and staying mindful of it is working for me now. That's why mindfulness is really helping me, because i can now pause and examine my feelings. I could never do that before.

Well, I could talk about this all day, but time to get out the door and do something Christmas related.

Happy Christmas IRed, if that's what you celebrate!!

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi lRedW77 Since I got you down the CPTSD track I'm happy to chime in a little! I was diagnosed with CPTSD two years ago. Before that, I could have never believed I had a condition akin to something I thought only shell-shocked veterans experience.

I think a lot of people who come to this forum could possibly have some form of it, though everyone is different. Don't be surprised if your T doesn't fully understand or address it in therapy, that is a common problem! Even though my diagnosis was helpful, progress on the actual trauma front was slow.

Hepaticas input is stellar. I am hoping to also get The Body Keeps Score, that one has been recommended many times for trauma survivors.

It does sound like you could be having emotional flashbacks. The thing is, it's easy to think that's NOT what they are. Once you realize that's what they are, it makes too much sense. They'd happen to me for a long time and then they got so intense a few years ago I didn't know what was happening to me. Everything in my life was great, then at the drop of a hat it was awful and I'm in bed for days, "hiding" and "recovering."

My description of flashbacks is that a part of yourself takes over that is still frozen in time, a knot of blocked emotions that were never resolved back in childhood.  I've heard so many people tell me that for them, this "inner child" started to come forward with more force and "be known" at a relatively predictable and secure period of their lives. For me, flashbacks can be overwhelming, but they have also been a great chance to release emotion and grieve.

I'd also say that hypervigilance can come in forms that are not easy to recognize always, too. I realized that I am always "scanning" my environment and looking for threatening traits in people that could hurt me, when I just thought I had a "I don't tolerate BS or fake people" personality. Not that the latter can't be true either, but it makes too much sense: my trauma originates from fake people so I'm hypervigilant toward fake people, but can admit that my high introversion may be from TOO much self-protection. If you have a hard time meditating and have racing thoughts about the future, and you think about things that could go wrong instead, that could also be HV. Insomnia and anxiety are tied in.

Avoidance is tricky. This generally means you dissociate and/or could have an avoidant attachment disorder, which can mean many things. I.e. it can be interior, dealing with denial about your trauma and never really feeling like it was real/never "hit" you hard because your mind has always avoided/distanced/numbed itself from that to protect you; or exterior - for the most part avoiding people in general or just not getting close/trusting, because they remind you of your trauma, since parents never taught you to properly attach.

So, unconsciously over time it's possible for avoidant behaviors to become anything from introversion to maybe even being a shut-in/agoraphobe because you get triggered too easily by interpersonal closeness or the outside world. (I'm lucky to be somewhere in the middle of the spectrum...) Many of the people I know with CPTSD, this manifests as being a homebody, really "narrowing" or even shrinking their lives, enjoying numbing themselves (ALWAYS having TV/movie/radio/podcast/smartphone/social media on, or bingeing many shows), curled up on couch/favorite chair with blanket, RARELY trying to be social, prefer you visit not the other way around (so they don't have to leave their home/safety), their default mode is almost like just wanting to hide and get their mind off things, maybe without even realizing it!....this is me to some extent of though not everyone is this way, I'm sure, but its something I've noticed.

[IRedW77]

Oh, you guys are both amazing! I'm so glad I posted about this.

I'm sorry, this turned into a really long post. I actually write a lot of posts that I don't end up posting, but I'm sticking with this one.

Anger, yeah, I guess I only have that response with my wife and kids. I've had it before, but only with intimates in my life. I just never thought about it that way. I don't respect people that get angry around me, but I don't engage with them.

I do have another similar kind of defective anger response that manifests as well. I'll ignore something over and over until I just boil over and then I end up apologizing for MY behavior. Like my anger is legitimate and has good reasoning behind it, but by the time I present it I'm just way out of line. It'll be something trivial, and something that deserves a gentle request for change, but by the time it comes out it's explosive and totally out of proportion.

A good recent anecdote was actually with strangers, but this stuff happens with my wife all the time.

We're all walking around with masks nowadays everywhere we go. People here are good about it EXCEPT the 10-20% of people who walk around with their noses hanging out of their masks. It makes me SO ANGRY. Like it's such a small thing, cover your nose and mouth with your mask—it's not always comfortable, but it literally SAVES LIVES so why can't everyone just do it? If I can/have to do it then everyone else had better damn well do it to. So I see this all the time and I'm constantly biting my tongue.

A month or so ago I was in the supermarket and I saw this younger guy walking around with his nose hanging out of his mask, but I bit my tongue. It's not going to do any good anyway. But, it's the supermarket so as I make my way around the store he is too, and I just keep seeing him. Finally it just happened that I opened the freezer case and when I closed it he was right behind me and lowering his mask to say something to his GF and I just lost it.

I said "you know, having your nose hanging out of your mask doesn't help anyone". He covered his whole face immediately, but his GF angrily said "you know, you could have been a little nicer about that." So of course I apologized and slunk away. But I was right, I am right, but I presented it all wrong and ended up apologizing because I was way out of line for the parameters of the situation.

As for P.W.'s book I was going to say that I don't find it triggering, but then I realized that I actually do.

I do not like his medications and snack foods are all wrong and this is the only way vibe. On the face of it I just don't like people who act like that, but...that's because they remind me too much of my BPD mother.

He's also seems arrogant and to be a know-it-all. That reminds me too much of me, and I don't like that guy either.

I don't like his attitude towards other disorders and medications, like C-PTSD and other childhood traumas are what's wrong with everyone and other disorders don't exist. He basically says SSRI's are helpful for getting used to things and then you should stop taking them.

Personally I have other disorders, it frustrates me that he diminishes that. It also frustrates me on behalf of other people that read his book.

Everything I've read is that the potential for having PD's is a heritable trait. Everything I've read also says that there's a high likelihood of having comorbid mental health issues that accompany PD's. Those are usually heritable too. So there's a better than average chance that if you have a PD parent you have also inherited another common mental health issue from them.

I can appreciate that the symptoms of C-PTSD can overlap with any number of other disorders and there's the potential for misdiagnosis, but...

Personally I have ADD. It's all categorized as ADHD now, but I have zero hyperactivity, so I like to stick with the old terminology. This is a diagnosis that I had as a child and one that my BPD mother has as well. When I got old enough to break away from her I discarded any and all diagnoses that she got me as a kid, because that was her thing—getting herself diagnosed with things and then getting me diagnosed with them as well.

So I blindly opposed and discarded anything associated with her. I didn't go to therapy for 20+ years because she made me do that as well. These were mistakes that hurt me.

I had some issues and I carefully chose my T and I have to pay him out of pocket because our U.S. medical system is awful. He helped me through the issues I came to him with and then he diagnosed me with adult ADD. That was life changing for me. I got onto medication and I can't even begin to explain how much it has helped me.

It actually also helps with the emotional flashbacks because emotional regulation issues are an ADD symptom. My emotions (when I have them) are just more intense and more difficult to control without medication. It also explains why my unmedicated mother can be such a train-wreck. She has that on top of the BPD emotional issues. When she gets angry she means it.

I also have depression that I've been medicated for since I was 20. When I found the right medication for that it helped me go back to college and actually succeed at it.

A big part of what led me here was that I started having depressive episodes that I couldn't explain. I have bad days here and there with my depression, but I know that mental state very well and I can recognize it. I'll just have a bad day where everything seems ridiculously hopeless and pointless all day. Then I'll go to sleep that night and wake up the next day and everything will be fine again. It never lasts more than a day. It's chemical and I'm fine probably 59 days out of 60.

I've made huge strides with my ADD diagnosis and was just doing better all around when I started having these episodes that lasted 2 or 3 days or sometimes a week. I felt depressed, but it felt different than how it usually feels and it was never gone the next day. It's not hopelessness, it's just emptiness and disinterest in everything. Nothing distracts me anymore because I don't care about doing anything that might distract me. I'll just lay on the couch staring at the ceiling and feeling sad until I fall asleep and start all over again the next day.

I'm still getting them, but they've already gotten a lot better since I learned about my BPD mom. I understand the Out of the FOG completely. I don't know that I can categorize these episodes as emotional flashbacks. I think they're just spillover from whatever trauma I've buried for so long.

Emotional flashbacks are different. They're usually triggered by unexpected anger from my wife or from an unresolved issue or disagreement in our marriage. The triggering situation will be resolved, but I'll just stay in that state for an extra day anyway. But they do also arise seemingly out of nowhere.

I've already invested tons of time digging into these episodes with my T and hadn't really gotten anywhere beyond the parameters of how I feel and what my motivations might be.

I just get dark and upset and I often understand what triggers it, but not always and I never have any control. I feel a need to punish myself. I'll make myself do things I don't want to do and I'll deliberately deprive myself of things. I'll often starve myself. As I mentioned I'll make myself sleep in uncomfortable places and positions. It's really healthy stuff.

The point of it is two-fold. The first part is that I'm unworthy and I deserve to be hurt. The second part is that if I make things bad enough for myself I'll finally get noticed and someone will help me. But if anyone (like my wife) actually intervenes I'll push them away. I want that lost parental figure to step in and finally notice me and fix it.

That's actually an awful lot of insight into what goes on in my head, but that knowledge has done absolutely nothing to help get me out of those feelings when I'm in them.

I don't know what my T is going to say about C-PTSD. He recognizes my (what I guess I now do accept as flashbacks) as a replay of childhood trauma, but I don't know where he'll want to go from there. I'll admit that I really, really want the validation of a diagnosis from him, but I feel strong enough in my convictions at this point that I don't need it.

It's clear to me that I have C-PTSD.

I had an interesting episode in the car with my wife today. I discussed the idea of C-PTSD with my wife a few days ago before I had enough together to do anything but dismiss the idea, but today I brought it up again.

I talked a little bit about what I'd read so far in P.W's book and what resonated with me. I went to tell her about the episode he relates about losing his dog, but I couldn't. I just lost the ability to speak. If I'd continued trying to speak I would have started crying my eyes out. I couldn't say anything at all for 5 full minutes. When we stopped for gas I had to text her the words because I couldn't say them. I'm a little choked up now just typing this. That tells me and definitely showed her that I'm onto something with this.

I'm extremely emotionally numbed, but that one spot in life I feel waaay too much of the losses I've had. My wife has to suppress her feelings to be strong enough to help hold me up when it comes to that.

But DND, your comments on avoidance are absolutely iron clad for me. You made me understand that piece completely. I didn't feel like I avoid my trauma because I can recite the details of the awful things my mother did to me like I'm telling you the weather, because I'm completely emotionally disconnected from it.

I'm highly introverted. I'm an only child predominantly raised by my BPD mother. I spent inordinate amounts of time completely alone as a kid. My T keeps checking in on me because practically everyone he sees all day is hugely psychologically burdened by the pandemic restrictions. I'm fine. I was built for this. I'm actually dreading when things go back to normal.

I enjoy socializing in the moment for the most part, but I dread even the events I'm looking forward to and feel relieved when they're over. At this point in my life I don't have any close friends left. I'm very self-protective with new people. I'm an absolute master of getting people to talk about themselves so I don't have to talk about myself.

In all of these areas I'm so much better adapted than I used to be though. I used to feel like if I didn't spend at least 1 or 2 days a week without leaving the house at all I just couldn't handle the world. Even now I go out for something almost every day. It's rare that the car sits for more than 18 hours without going somewhere.

I also have a wonderful mask that I wear in public. I can put on a good show of looking extroverted and sociable, but it's a well honed act.

I identify with my couch. I'm always distracting myself with some form of media. That's why the depressive episodes have been so hard. None of my distractions are distracting when they hit. I just don't want to do anything and nothing takes the pain away. Maybe that's the point whatever part of my brain generates these is trying to make "you're doing pretty well now, but SERIOUSLY it's time to look over here."

As for TV specifically it's always been a vital companion in my life. I spent sooo much time as a kid completely alone with the TV on in the background just doing whatever else I was doing. Even when I stayed with my dad who was a fabulous parent I needed the TV. His one weakness is that he always falls asleep by 7 at night. So he did everything with me and took me everywhere, but after 7pm the TV was my parent.

As an adult if I am the only adult in the house I need to have the TV on. If I don't I start feeling weird childhood fears that I don't otherwise have, like I'm suddenly afraid of the dark and ghosts and aliens and I DO NOT feel safe.

You are off base with the only socializing with people in my own house though. I only like socializing with people at THEIR house or somewhere public. I don't like having other people in my house. That's not something I grew up with. People don't come to you, you go to them.

I'm such a mess, thank you for reading.

Happy X-Mas Hepatica!
Happy Holidays DND!

[Hepatica]

I just get dark and upset and I often understand what triggers it, but not always and I never have any control. I feel a need to punish myself. I'll make myself do things I don't want to do and I'll deliberately deprive myself of things. I'll often starve myself. As I mentioned I'll make myself sleep in uncomfortable places and positions. It's really healthy stuff.

The point of it is two-fold. The first part is that I'm unworthy and I deserve to be hurt. The second part is that if I make things bad enough for myself I'll finally get noticed and someone will help me. But if anyone (like my wife) actually intervenes I'll push them away. I want that lost parental figure to step in and finally notice me and fix it.

When the above happens, do the exact opposite of punishment. You need to re-parent yourself with support, love and cherish that young boy who was left alone. Whatever it takes, push that 'hard on yourself' voice aside, knock it over, tell it to leave. Whatever brings you comfort do it. And bring in a new voice of tenderness. When I cultivated the new voice - because oh how I relate to this example. I too would not feed myself. Now I see quickly what is happening and super tender loving care moves into action. My episodes are nearly gone now. That said, I've also gone no contact with my parents and removed a lot of stress. But I am certain that I am rewiring my brain by not letting the hurtful, punishing thoughts stick around. I immediately replace them.

[blacksheep7]

Hi IRedW77,

I am no expert in any way. I was diagnosed last year when I began working with a new therapist. When I explained these weird days where I was thrown into an unregulated state that might last hours, or days (really ramped up when things got bad with my elderly parents a few years ago during my mother's health crisis. Their old, terrible behaviour erupted and I began to really remember how bad they could be) I would end up in bed in tears until the emotions passed and I had no idea why it kept happening.

I had been told before this that I merely suffered depression, but I have never fit the criteria for depression, because my symptoms never last 14 days or longer. What I learned was I was experiencing flashbacks and I had no idea bc I thought flashbacks had a visual component and only happened to people who experienced a natural disaster or war. But with C-PTSD it is an emotional flashback, and you're switched into a hopeless feeling, pretty much despair and I still don't know what sets it off for me. I did notice I would feel thrown for a time after visiting my parents but it could also happen with a emotional things within my own FOO. Often with how I felt after an argument with my son.

I don't think it's abnormal or wrong to want to delve into this and want to know more. There was something on FB I read to my  husband the other day, about how society has labeled so many of us with mental illness (depression, anxiety, etc) when we actually are living our lives with trauma and old survival patterns that look so much like mental illness.

The best thing for me was to read Pete Walker's book CPTSD - From Surviving to Thriving. To me it finally described my experience of my life after moving out of my parents. I was walking wounded for years with survival patterns that really didn't work out in the real world.

That book is great. Consider how much your therapist has been educated about this. As far as spending too much time on the subject, I think this is a normal response to wanting to uncover the unconscious that has been running our lives following a toxic childhood. We just want to know how to fix ourselves. And I honestly, finally believe we can. I have come so far now that I'm working with a therapist who has training in trauma. It's honestly changed my life. This forum is also really, really good to remind me that I am OK. I am not permanently damaged. I can heal. My flashbacks are so infrequent now. I don't spend 2 days in bed upset. I may disregulate but i get it under wraps so much faster now, with a whole new toolbox of positive self-regard and compassion. It's an incredible difference after years of going to therapists who did not address my trauma at all. I did not see any recovery then.

There are probably many other books on this but I've only read Peter Walkers book. Good luck with all of this. You're on the right track.

I needed to read this and the posts from everyone here.   

Last week I was in deep darkness, filled with anger.  I couldn't understand why and started to think that I was bipolar.

It was c-ptsd, I live it with dd.  I learned that I Must stay away from FBook, go grey rock all the time. I don't reach out to her anymore.  She is so indifferent towards me, emotionally, completely cut off.  Our relationship is only about her boys, my gchildren. Compared to her NF who is always there to be seen for supply and answered to.  It's a heartbreak, thank you for reading and understanding as we all come from the same background.

I took out my bible, Pete Walker's book and started reading my highlighted references....it helps. I give myself slack by remembering that I opened my wounds  after decades and still hurting, sometimes.

[Phoenix Rising]

After over a decade of being told I was "depressed", I received this diagnosis this year. It has been extremely validating and has provided more direction for treatment. I think as much as you are reluctant, that you consider trying to discuss this with your therapist. Depending on the response, it can tell you whether you may need to find a new one or not. In my experience, there aren't so many who are familiar with CPTSD where I'm from and where I am living now. Seeing the wrong ones for so long has undermined my progress, since some who are not familiar with this can downplay your trauma or use techniques that should be avoided with CPTSD.

Pete Walker's book From Surviving to Thriving is due to arrive in a few days so I haven't read it yet.. but it's been highly recommended on this forum. Having read his articles before, it really opened my eyes to many things that I have never been able to explain to anyone else. I don't have access to the link right now but I would recommend Googling Pete Walker CPTSD, while you wait for the book if you choose to order it.

[IRedW77]

Hepatica:
Thank you. I know this, and I know I have some tools in my hand in the form of PW's book that will help with that. I will get back to that and give it it's due. I'm just fighting myself a bit I guess.

I was telling my wife some of this last night, with your advice specifically in mind actually. Like, I get that I need to create a new voice that takes care of me for myself, but I'm resistant. I can say that and understand that, but as soon as I start trying to think about it I hear a voice saying "no you don't need that, that's not for you, you don't deserve that, you can't do that."  It's funny to think of a dark destructive voice with built in defenses.

There is something somewhere inside me that's actually trying to fix things. It sent me the depressive episodes as a wake up call.

Reading about people saying that they were actually doing really well with their lives when they started having strange symptoms and problems that they couldn't handle seems familiar.

I was actually doing really well, I had the medication that was literally changing my life (or helping me change my life) for the better on a daily basis when I started having these episodes.

I spent from March to August playing a wonderful video game. It was filling 100% of my needs to be numbed and distracted. I'd spent like 300 hours playing it in 6 months. My medication was making my days better and easier and that was filling all of my uncomfortable downtime.

Then in the first week of August I started to feel my interest in this game fading. Then I just stopped having any interest in it at all. I kept probing my mind like a kid testing a loose tooth with his tongue looking for the desire and excitement of wanting to play that—it just kept being gone. I couldn't find anything to replace it. I just didn't want to do anything I wanted to do. That lasted for 2 weeks before I got a bit better, but I've been fighting those episodes on and off ever since.

I feel like that tiny healthy part of me sent those episodes. Like, you're doing well, you've got the rest of your life in better control than it's ever been. Now have this. You've got something else to deal with. I know you'll pay attention because depression and darkness are something you understand.

That's led me through all of this. I had something new I had to fix and understand that was causing maximum pain. It's different from the emotional flashbacks and not connected to them. Those are a different animal. This is a destructive self help mechanism, because that's the only language my brain speaks. I still have a mental block over playing the damn game. I can't even touch the console.
——
X-mas was rough. I'm letting myself feel a lot more things. I had to battle emotional flashbacks and self-destructive impulses all day, but I did do a bit better. I didn't fix anything or do healthier things instead, but I could compress the experiences a bit more. The grip wasn't as strong.

Phoenix:

I will brave this with my therapist. It's likely that I'm building or exaggerating something that isn't there. He's expressed legitimate concern over how much time I've been spending with this whole process. I've also been seeing him long enough and revealed enough of myself that I project the same insecurities onto him as I do with everyone else.

"He's better than me, he's more together, he has such a normal healthy life, he's judging me and looking down on me because he's so much better than me, and I don't deserve to have him helping me."

I know I've probably built up unrealistic expectations of his response as well.

I do not know what his take on C-PTSD will be. I need his validation, but I'll be strong enough to be ok if I don't get it exactly the way I need.
Even if he doesn't accept C-PTSD he'll put it into the terms he'd use to work on it with me. He won't be dismissive, he may just have his own way of working on it. I'll work with him however he wants to work and get what I can get and if it isn't enough I'll reevaluate.

I chose him very carefully. I didn't see anyone for 20+ years because I had so many bad experiences. I've built a lot of trust and comfort with him and I absolutely know what bad therapy looks like.

So I appreciate the concern and advice on that and it's really good advice. People stay with terrible therapists all the time.

So thank you all

I hope you're navigating the holidays well.
I appreciate being able to talk to you all.

[DistanceNotDefense]

IRedW77 it sounds like you are on a roller coaster of self-discovery! This was very much what it was like for me. I unpeeled all the layers and slowly but surely, every piece of the puzzle fit CPTSD. By the way, my DH has ADHD and very often I suspect a type of CPTSD too. You and he sound a lot alike. (Especially in your opinions on the mask stuff!)

One thing that really knocked me flat was learning how good our nervous systems are at protecting us from trauma. Denial and self-minimizing are its greatest tools. If you convince yourself that what happened to you wasn't that bad, it's one of the best ways to survive something terrible and unimaginable.   I did this all my life, I even felt like I had been born to the best circumstances and kindest people imaginable for a very, very long time. The thing is, the terror of it does survive and gets stored somewhere in our bodies. It's when you finally establish a safe life, where you are no longer just "surviving" and moving toward "thriving," when the body and mind may start to unpack all that stored crap, because you're finally ready to handle it. It happened just like this for two of my close friends. It happened in the same way with me, so many symptoms emerged so forcefully I had no idea what was wrong with me. I had finally settled down and even achieved a major life goal I had always wanted to achieve. Instead I felt like I was losing my mind and had made all the wrong choices in life, that was the only explanation I had without PTSD.

I also have to chuckle, because you sound a whole lot like me (and my DH) when it comes to self-help or therapy in reading Pete Walkers book. I get that this type of stuff is so good but there's a whole lot that I get critical of (and which i cant argue with anymore seeing how it's helped me). I will even get critical or untrustworthy about therapists or self-help figures on a very personal level. Almost like "OK I get that you have a great thing going on here, it's helping a lot of people, but I ain't sold on YOU yet!!!"

And this might be yet another bomb-drop of realization for you, IRedW77....but I learned that this was my "outer critic," and part of the hypervigilance of CPTSD! I can be very critical of things in my environment, and it's a self-protection mechanism....I am a skeptic and a cynic because of that.

What you describe, as being hard on yourself, of having a voice that tells you that you don't deserve comfort, etc. sounds a lot like the inner critic. If you think about it, of course we feel that way about ourselves when we are down. It's an internalizing of our parents' wishes and voices: stay invisible, stay needless, squash those feelings, you must do this in order to get kind treatment and avoid abuse and terror. We were rewarded for abandoning ourselves and this may take almost a lifetime to untrain in ourselves.

When we flashback, this "inner child" emerges that contains all those retaliatory feelings of abandonment and loneliness that we squashed and were exiled, both by our parents and ourselves (the inner critic). To me, this child can almost feel impossible to console, nothing makes her feel better, she is throwing something like a "tantrum of sadness" and it lingers almost like a hangover for a few days. The part of my brain that says "I hate this emotion, I hate this feeling, I want it to go away, I just want to feel happy again" I realized was the inner critic too. By exiling those emotions all over again, I was replicating my FOO's attitudes toward myself, telling that "child me" to hide again, and I was literally punishing myself. So now, I try to treat that part of me as if it was a real child all its own, and I do the opposite of what my FOO did. I will also treat my inner critic as a person all its own too, and ask it to step aside and be quiet for a moment (easier said than done). Yes, I don't want to feel or experience these feelings anymore; but you don't ever say that to a kid! Right? You'd never say to a lost little kid "Wow you're really emotional and inconsolable right now, can you just get over it so *I* can feel better?" No, that is what someone mentally ill or potentially with a PD (like our parents) would have said! And we need to literally learn how to stop doing this to ourselves.

And again, my DH has ADHD, I know exactly what you mean about emotional dysregulation as part of all that and how that could (and should) be distinct from an emotional flashback. I'd say that a CPTSD diagnosis definitely shouldn't "eclipse" dysreg in ADHD, but IMHO they seem like two separate things that can feed into each other in a vicious cycle. My DH will have strong reactions to innocuous things, and then have a reaction that seems easy to connect to his own trauma, so there is both, but then they can get conflated....!

This is getting pretty long so that's all I'll say for now...I do want to mention. Out of the FOG's sister forum, Out of the Storm, which has amazing resources for CPTSD which were a huge help to me.

Happy holidays to you too IRedW77! It's a tough time but I hope it's gotten more enjoyable for you.

P.S. videogames are one of my fun activities I do with my "inner child" when she's feeling pretty desolate!

[IRedW77]

DND:

I hope that your DH is getting some help with his ADHD. I've had some therapy on some specific behaviors, but medication has absolutely changed my life.

I can get through the day and get things done that I need to do. I don't spend half my time wandering from room to room trying to remember what I was trying to do. I don't waste tons of time trying to figure out how to organize my actions. When I'm working with tools I don't spend as much time looking for where I put something down as actually working.

I have all these tasks that I always avoid and I'll do them now and say to myself, "wait, how was this so stressful, anxiety inducing, and exhausting? I'm already done with it."

Before every task had two parts: first spend 4 or 5 times as long as the task itself takes to build up the motivation to act, second perform the task, third would be get distracted and do something else, fourth would be actually finishing the task IF I didn't burn up all my time and energy on the sidetrack. Even the two step process has 4 or 5 steps.

I had this diagnosis as a kid and was medicated, but they've developed new medications since then. Those never really worked, or kind of worked around the margins. Maybe also having more experience living in an adult body and learning my stable strengths and weaknesses allows me to see the differences.

Starting medication was so eye opening for me. It was a daily revelation for weeks of, "wait, THIS is part of that too?!!" Just getting the experience of seeing the differences to know what is what would make a huge difference even without medication.

I've taken some days off of my medication and the first thing that comes back when it starts to wear off is an emotional overwhelm. I just can't handle anything. Everything is just exponentially magnified and out of proportion.

Whatever progress I've made on emotional flashbacks is just out the window.

I definitely understand the interplay and overlap of symptoms and causes. There's a ton of it and it can be hard to sort out.

It gives me some small sympathy for my BPD mom. She's had ADHD her whole life and very little treatment. I understand some of her emotional dysregulation. She's fighting something with both hands tied behind her back.

——-

I've finished most of Pete Walker's book. There's a lot of valuable information in there. However, I've started reading some other books instead.

I can't get past the man that comes through in the writing. He makes me very uncomfortable.
I've read a lot here about trusting that gut feeling. I've tried to ignore it and I have made it through the book, but I need to work with someone else.

His personalizations can be beneficial, but I don't like him. I feel like if I met him IRL he'd be violating my boundaries left and right.

I really realized this when I went back after reading it and tried to provide my wife with his synopsis of C-PTSD. I reread it and realized that it was not something I could share. All of the him in it frustrated me. There just wasn't anything I could distill enough to share—like you don't want to introduce your partner to the guy from work that makes you uncomfortable even if he knows all about something interesting.

My wife has read some highlighted sections here and there that I've shared and unprovoked she told me that the author made her uncomfortable.

So he's a good place to start, but he isn't for me. He's made important contributions, but I'm looking elsewhere.

[Phoenix Rising]

I'm glad you have found and are working with a therapist you like. It sure can be a nightmare finding one! I find a lot of themes we are all discussing here are not necessarily available in scholarly literature or taught in studies. Some professionals may incorporate practices that are akin with ones used for managing CPTSD without it being named as such. As long as you feel safe and that you are progressing, that's really all that matters.

Sorry to read that you didn't like Pete or his book (hopefully I didn't misinterpret that). I have had a different experience so far with Surviving to Thriving. Particularly when he described F styles and busyness, being too focused on processes, lack of trust with professionals and relational work, etc. Now that I have come back to reply to your post from the other day, the part about F types and focus was a bit synonymous with what you wrote previously about what your therapist said.

His book is one of many you can toss or keep in your toolbox. When I bought the book, I bought a lot of others at the same time because I am looking to draw something from each of them, not to get super personal with the author or judge anything more than their writing style. Some authors write from a 3rd person and less personal so that might be something you may feel more comfortable with? I hope whatever other books and literature you find helpful you would consider sharing with us. It's always great to have many resources to draw from

[IRedW77]

Ok, questions time again:

I've been waiting since before X-mas to finally see my T again and ask him what he thinks about whether or not I have C-PTSD. I saw him today.

It boils down right now to the jury is still out. I'm obviously frustrated about this, or I wouldn't be writing. I'm just incredibly impatient with this whole process and I have to own that, but I feel like I need official recognition to move forward.

My instinct right now is to just back off of the whole idea. Is that a rational and sensible response? Is that just my abnormal sense that everything is rejection and in fact more evidence that I do have this? My brain just goes in circles.

He is not familiar with C-PTSD, but he is an experienced diagnostician and asked me to send him some of the things I've been reading for next week.

Here's the central confusion for all of you that actually have this diagnosis. The diagnostic criteria includes a diagnosis of PTSD and THEN the complex symptoms on top of that.

Therefore he started working me up for PTSD and got as far as "you have some features, but I'm not prepared to make a diagnosis yet."

Is C-PTSD like "Super PTSD" as in if you have it you could be diagnosed with PTSD 5 times over. You have 5 different traumatic events that give you nightmares and flashbacks etc. ?

OR

Is it like cumulative PTSD? Years and years of routine little stuff with some bigger events mixed in. No one event gives you nightmares or intrusive thoughts, but the combined effect warps your personality.

Yes I witnessed a suicide attempt, yes I watched my father get arrested after my mother orchestrated it, yes I almost got hit by a car, yes I was exposed to routine bouts of explosive anger from birth onward etc. but I don't have intrusive thoughts or nightmares about any of those.

The highlights are all vividly burned into my brain (minus any emotional content) but they aren't specifically haunting me or replaying on a routine basis.

I'm paraphrasing, but he said he views it almost like a mashup of PTSD and BPD from a diagnostic perspective. The additional "C" criteria are features of BPD or very similar.

Of course I grew up with BPD mom, so those behaviors were also modeled and normalized. So that alone could account for those symptoms.

It's also hard to diagnose because of the overlap of symptoms from my other mental health issues eg. depression and ADHD.

He's not being dismissive. He's taking me very seriously, but he's trying to diagnose PTSD first and it's not clear that I'm going to meet the criteria for that.

He raised the possibility that being on these boards as much as I have been and talking to everyone and reading books that I'm molding my symptoms to fit the diagnosis. That's a very real possibility.

I know that I am very suggestible. I also know that I watched BPD mom spend her whole life getting herself diagnoses. I really don't ever want to be anything like her.

The whole thing is deeply frustrating. Minimizing the trauma is a feature of C-PTSD. I've been reading that. Am I taking it all too seriously or not seriously enough?

I realize that any responses I get are only going to contribute to this uncertainty feedback loop, so I don't know why I'm even posting this. I just need action in a situation that makes me impatient because I can't resolve it yet.

I welcome anything anyone has to say, but please don't bash my T. He's open minded and he's working with me. C-PTSD just isn't a widely recognized diagnosis in the U.S. 

I read Pete Walker's book and a lot of it resonated with me, even though his writing makes me uncomfortable. The concept of emotional flashbacks makes too much sense to me and explains something I've never found a better explanation for.

I never viewed those episodes as debilitating, just another part of life. They bother me much more now that I have a conceptual framework for them. I also feel like I'm dealing with them a bit better with this preliminary new understanding.

Overall I just don't know...

I just need to take 20 or 30 deep breaths and wait for next week. I've just never been able to patiently handle unresolved situations. This is me throwing everything at the wall before I even know for sure if I'm looking for something that sticks.

I'll probably feel ashamed of posting this post in a few hours. I know this, but I'm doing it anyway, ugh.

[stormbrewing]

Hi Red, I don't really have any answers or advice, but sending you a hug and say that from my perspective there is no shame in anything that is posted on these forums, and no need to be embarrassed by it. Far better to vent frustrations and express confusion here than almost anywhere I think.

I am wondering if receiving a diagnosis of C-PTSD (is that the official recognition you mean?) would make any difference to your therapy process or to the self-work you are doing? If you find that accessing and engaging with support that others who experience C-PTSD find useful also help you, then will anything really change if you have the diagnosis or not? That might just be a way for you to take a deep breath or two and keeping moving slowly forward while waiting for this to play out with your T. 

Wishing you all the best.

[IRedW77]

Thank you for being encouraging of open posting. That helps. I am always scared of saying the wrong thing and offense and rejection.

I just want some validation, to feel, well...validated. I've put a lot of thought and reading into it and that diagnosis makes sense to me. But I'm terrible at decision making, and there are so many twists and turns in the nature of self evaluation and specific features of C-PTSD that undermine or overmine (to coin a word) doing that.

If someone else says it, or confirms it, someone in authority, then I don't have to think about it anymore.

Self doubt will undermine anything I do on my own otherwise. I'm willing and able to do a lot on my own, but only if I'm confident in what I'm doing.

If I'm sure of what I'm fighting I have no problem fighting it with anything and everything, but otherwise I get self doubt, indecision, and confusion.

If I have a screw and a block of wood I need to know if the one should go into the other. If it's my decision I'll agonize over it and think of 20 other ways I could or should be doing it. If I can get someone else confirm that screw should go into wood I'm good to go.

I'll look for a screwdriver. If I can't get one I'll find a hammer. Even if I end up using a rock I'll get that thing in there.

I'm a fabulous and relentless problem solver, but if it's my own problem I have zero innate confidence.

[Hepatica]

Hey IRed,

I am no expert but my knowledge of C-PTSD vs PTSD, is that PTSD is due to an event or events, such as natural disaster or a person who experiences high stress during time being a soldier or witnessing war or even just one incident of violence.

Complex PTSD is from chronic traumatic, yes cumulative stuff, and events that happen over a long period of time (ie. 18 of growing up with PD parent.) You will not get intrusive images or memories sometimes, or perhaps you will, but often it is the way the brain was wired to be fearful during the time you experienced the chronic stress. The underlying trauma is there and needs to be calmed and healed.

Imagine you're at a dinner table and the person you're eating with just slams the table loudly with both hands. Do you look up? Does your heart beat faster? I mean, for goodness sake, even the glass of water would be trembling. It's natural.  Do you react, yell at them, feel anything? Imagine you grew up with this happening often? You will become hypervigiliant right? Your brain gets wired over time to be hyper alert - similar to a soldier but this is happening in the home, where you should be safe. Living things are given flight or fight for a reason. The problem is, we experienced it at the hand of a parent, over and over again and the parent or parents never sought help to recover from their behaviour. We were trapped in it.

If your T is confused about this then of course you are confused. I'm glad you're giving him the opportunity to become more educated.

The bottom line is, I think, for any diagnosis of "mental illness" is to find ways to calm the nervous system that was elevated for such a long time, as everything about you was developing. My system is wired way higher than most other people, so I recluse, get anxious, feel fearful way more than my friends, who often don't understand why I'm so fearful. I have never understood it either, until my diagnosis.

When I began to take Mindfulness meditation courses I could feel my nervous system relaxing, not just as i did it, but also afterward. I'd have less anxiety speaking to people. I'd not trip over my tongue or space out. I was right there. It feels really good. I know MM is not the answer for everyone, but it has really helped me with my recovery.

It's okay to want to know. It's okay to dig and get the right fit for you. Take your time. The most important thing is take care of yourself now that you have the knowledge that you went through a really hard time in your life growing up. There's no shame in that. So many of us do. And you can heal from it. I really believe you can, although at times you do have to manage it.

[Phoenix Rising]

Everyone posts something here because they want to understand, learn and grow. I struggle sometimes too with wondering if my answers or the things I say IRL in general could be perceived as offensive or controversial. I'm generally quite to the point and I feel quite awful if I remotely talk about myself or use *I....* too much. I realize that the CPTSD and lack of validation about the things I've experienced add to the constant nervousness, rumination and overanalysis of my communication. I really think it stems from being constantly silenced and not being allowed to be myself during childhood. It will take time to work through that.

I don't think anyone here has or wants to bash your therapist.    I think it's great that your therapist is interested in exploring CPTSD and what you've been looking into. I wonder.. while your therapist becomes more acquainted with a new concept, have you considered discussing with him the urges to fix things and any impatience or other things that accompany that? That may be an area in which your therapist can help you navigate through. Your therapist's suggestion that about your participation online/reading books is an interesting one. People have a natural drive to find answers. To be curious. Particularly when they have gone through life and suffered for a long time and not understood why. It's OK to explore and consider whether a particular illness and like is something you may be dealing with, and not try to be fitting yourself in a particular box.

My understanding of CPTSD is exposure to trauma repeatedly or chronically. Sadly as you probably have recognized, CPTSD is a new theme in North America and in the world. It is not acknowledged in the DSM and is not present in most scholarly resources that budding psychologists, psychiatrists and other health professionals get access to. Many symptoms of many mental illnesses and even developmental disabilities overlap with each other. Often people who have CPTSD get misdiagnosed as bipolar, BPD, PTSD.. sometimes people don't even fit into PTSD because of some symptoms that are not typically seen with one single instance of trauma. So it is not really surprising in a way that your therapist is trying to see if you meet the criteria for PTSD first. He may be trying to evaluate other disorders that overlap with PTSD. I wanted to add too that many of us have been impacted by people with PDs.. you can have a BPD mother and come out with "fleas" and not be PD. You could have had a BPD mother and have no borderline traits. Having a parent with a PD doesn't necessarily mean you are BPD.

It's nice to read that you've been able to draw some things from Pete's book despite your opinion on his writing.  With PTSD, the coping mechanisms used and things that don't seem debilitating because one gets so used to it over time. It takes time to turn that fight-or-flight off in day to day situations and communication with others. I feel frustrated myself because there is this urge, now that I can actually communicate what I've experienced to others, to start rebuilding myself and my life. To take control and be "doing something". I'm not sure what your take may be with what you have experienced yourself. But the restlessness and urge to understand everything right now, today, this minute - I've connected that to how my FOO constantly pressured and triangulated me into doing what they thought was best (for them). It was drilled into me to never complain, never speak out, keep my head down and work hard. Any less was a failure. I find myself today as a adult struggling to ask for help and to show myself understanding and self-compassion - other people who have not had this kind of trauma from their FOO find it easier to take it easy and not beat themselves up over things that are not in their control.

Despite the feelings of restlessness and desire to commit to myself, I realize at the same time that all of this abuse and trauma was chronic, it will take time to overcome it. It will take time to build new routines, implement new strategies. Some won't work but I am hopefully many will.  I tried mindfulness meditation in 2009, even was asked to run a course on it at a local shelter and it didn't click then. But after reading so many recommendations for it AND now having a diagnosis (a starting point for treatment IMO) has me excited to try it again. I'm looking forward to seeing my therapist this week and trying it with her. I am thinking of asking if she has any useful daily affirmations or if could start with one in our sessions. One of the biggest challenges (besides the need to fix/do) I feel I face so far is learning self-compassion. And learning how to talk to my inner child after she was abused, dismissed and silenced. It takes time.

You can and you will get through this.

[Andeza]

Yes, all very accurate. I've HAD PTSD before, undiagnosed because my dumb butt wouldn't talk about it with anyone. But I then had a Marine Corps vet tell me, "Oh yeah, that was definitely PTSD," when discussing the instance at a later date. It sucks. Majorly. It's not something I ever want to experience again and it took at least six months to get over the triggering incident. And that was only the PTSD symptoms. The C-PTSD stuff lingered far far longer. Years.

I know you'd like to have a diagnosis, but in this case it may be less than necessary for recovery. What I'm saying is if you don't get a note in your medical file saying this is what you have, it doesn't mean you don't, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't still employ resources to that end in your own life. You may find that perfect article or book that really clicks in your case and you're able to make huge progress. It looks different for all of us.

For me, just being here has been enough. Knowing I was not alone. Knowing that what I went through was not okay. Knowing I made it. I survived, and surviving means opportunities for thriving.

[Hepatica]

Here's a good link to information on Childhood Trauma - the ACES test. Adverse Childhood Experience.

I find this very valuable to understand how my childhood affects my life now.

https://www.ashlandmhrb.org/upload/documents/ace/finding_your_ace_score_1.pdf