Since Halloween BM has already come to our house to try to take the kids from H and picked up the kids from school on H's day without telling him. Both huge no nos but I guess there's no accountability. She's also threatened to go to her lawyer over minor, routine issues.
It's gotten so bad that we finally got a security camera just in case.
I think I'm starting to get PTSD about the holidays.
The kids seem mostly OK but a little stressed. Hopefully that doesn't get worse. Hopefully H and I don't get worse.
We're trying to focus on the good things we have. Our first holidays as a married couple, our health, two awesome kids, our house, stable employment, etc ... It's so easy to lose sight of all that with BM looming in the background of everything we do.
I am sorry, PL. But it sounds like you have a good plan on what to try to focus on instead, and you've taken some measures to ensure that her antics are caught on video (if more antics occur). Can you make the school aware of the schedule so they can prevent BM from picking the kids up when it is not her day? Maybe make sure you pepper in some self-care moments from time to time. Or designate a time of day you will not worry about BM (or a designate a time of day that is the only time you worry about BM). Keep in mind that you have made it through plenty of holiday seasons in the past. :) I know that's easier said than done at times (I know there's plenty of times I am a ball of anxiety and you guys help me keep things in perspective). Maybe keep a list in your purse of everything that is going right, so if you feel overwhelmed you can look at it.
Is there something that has helped to alleviate your PTSD in the past? Maybe work on things that help ground you and keep you present if you find your mind wandering a lot.
I really like the idea of a gratitude list. H's therapist actually suggested focusing on the good things as a strategy for when he gets really down and stressed. So when things are bad we've been listing to each other all the good stuff we have going on.
So this is the second time she's sent her mom to pick up the kids on H's day. We talked about the idea of him emailing the principal and receptionist and saying, hey, there's no way to designate this on the form but her parents should not be picking up the kids on my parenting time. The schedule is complicated so I don't think the school would be able to keep track of whose day it is. But the kids know which parent they're supposed to be with. The problem is that he's mostly resolved it - the school used to always call BM and not him and finally he realized that she had taken his contact info off the forms. Now that his info is on the forms they'll call him. So this was hopefully a one-off. She would consider setting a boundary about her parents picking up the kids to be a huge escalation and she's definitely looking for a fight. So the (probably negligible) gain might not be worth whatever retaliation she does? Like my guess is that her reaction would be to tell the school that I'm not ever allowed to pick up the kids, not even on H's day. And then the school is caught in the middle and it ends up with a worse situation.
Sometimes when she's doing really badly I think it's best to just not respond to anything because she's looking for an argument and depriving her of the response she's looking for means that she'll look for another target. But then it feels like we're just in a bunker waiting for the next grenade she's throwing over with no defense or way to make it stop. I don't know.
I guess I'm really down right now but hopefully I can throw myself into holiday stuff - decorations, food, getting started on Christmas treats to take around the neighborhood? DH took his frustration out on the garage and cleared out a whole bunch of stuff last weekend, so at least we're trying to be productive with our stress, lol.
I clean the house when BM pisses me off. lol Like a deep-scrub cleaning. I figured it's best to put that energy somewhere useful.
And you're probably right, if BM is already a little triggered, if you guys talk to the school to try to stop anything she may escalate it to where you can't pick the kids up. I'm assuming BM isn't really confused by the schedule, but what if on Sunday H emails/text her the weekly schedule as a reminder? That may upset her too though. But my thinking is you can document that even with the weekly reminders she is still picking up/sending her mom to pick up the kids on H's day.
Gratitude lists help me. I get stuck in black and white thinking, so when I get stuck in a "I hate everything" mood, I think about the stuff that's good to bring me back. Like when I feel everything is going wrong, it reminds me to remember what is going right. It may feel like everything is bad, but there is always something good going on even if you can't remember at the time. :)
Also, do you think letting BM know there is a camera at your house would help her to not stop by and throw tantrums? LIke would she be more mindful of how she is acting if she knows it's being recorded? And if you think it could help, maybe phrase it like "we're afraid of porch pirates stealing our Amazon boxes, so FYI we put in a camera" or something. But once again, that depends on how you and H think she would respond. At the very least, knowing that camera is there should ease your mind a bit. It's hard for her to say something didn't happen when you have it on camera.
I hope the holiday season gets better for you! :hug:
If she is invading your life this much, I think an email may be in order from your husband.
"BM, we have installed a security camera at our home, do not try to come here and pick up the children on my custody time, I will call the police.
Do not try to pick up the children at school during my custody time or send your mother to do so. I will call the police and the school will be notified that they let the children go on my time without my consent and permission. My lawyer will also be notified of this egregious behavior on your part. It is very important for the children's sakes we stick to the schedule agreed upon by court."
I think she at least needs to be on notice for these things, that you are watching and aware of her behavior. If you are going to court in the near future, get documentation of what she's done/what days.
I am also sorry you are having to deal with your husband's ex wife this much. If I had to deal with my husband's new wife this much, I would lose my mind, this is no reflection on you, rather, BM, why she feels so compelled to keep being a problem and insert herself into things which are truly no longer her business.
If you are feeling like PTSD is setting in, husband needs to somehow handle this better, I know, easier said than done, but you shouldn't have to feel your private life is being invaded by this woman this much. Judge's like calm situations of child transferring. If it's not working, perhaps the transfers shouldn't happen at school. Something that would be easier for the children. At this point, with this woman, its almost like a police station is your best bet, however, hate to have to go that route with the children.
Not sure of a solution, but a while back you mentioned one week off, one week on, maybe that would make it easier for the children? Just a thought...
Hi PL,
Sorry you guys are dealing with this, I am torn on what we would do in this situation. To some extent, I lean towards HotCocoa and putting your foot down. Document that this happened, that she's putting the kids in an untenable situation intentionally, she's violating the CO. The kids in now way should have to be in front of a grand parent telling them they aren't supposed to go home with them, that is just cruel to both parties. If she flares up, if she escalates and tries again, you involve the lawyers. I'm not sure if she'll continue to escalate in order to get your attention, so doing nothing is sometimes not an option.
We have a security camera because of BM, we were afraid of accusations if DH had to be home alone when she drops off/picks up the kids. We didn't tell her we have it, but she knew somehow. I chuckle because they have no idea how far it reaches, they (she/BF) assume it only covers the porch. They'll ring the doorbell and run back off the porch to be "off camera". Exchanges are pretty quiet though now that the kids are older, we don't even go to the door...we say our goodbyes inside the house and the kids leave....and when they come back we just make sure the door is unlocked. I kid you not, I literally HIDE out of view because I don't want anything to do with BM/BF. Really, BM claims she SO triggered by DH....I don't get why she has to get out of the car at exchanges, IMO that just contradicts her claims of fear.
No, to be clear, she was NOT confused by the schedule, she did it on purpose. The issue was that one of the kids needed to leave early, they called H, he didn't immediately pick up, so they called her. Which is reasonable. But she didn't call him, she sent her mom to pick up the kid, notified H HOURS later and wouldn't bring them back. Finally he went to go pick the kid up. So the school didn't do anything wrong but him leaving his phone on his desk for 15 minutes gave BM the opening to take his parenting time.
OK you guys are making me rethink this, maybe he should let the school know. Help me brainstorm what that could look like? I was thinking an email that said, "Hey guys, you had no reason to know this but (BM's mom) does not have permission to pick the kids up on my parenting time. If both parents can't come get the kids, the backup on my day is my wife, Penny Lane." The problem with this is that I think he would need to cc BM on the email and that would cause the retaliation I talked about.
Maybe a phone call to the receptionist instead? Does he need to say something like "you didn't do anything wrong but it caused a huge problem for me, can we find a way to prevent this in the future?" Does he need to offer to send him the parenting schedule to the school? The kids know who they're with, when they come home sick they tell the school who to call. At regular drop off I just don't think they monitor so closely that there would be someone who keeps track of the schedule each day. But at least he could make sure that BM's parents couldn't pick the kids up early from the office again. But is the small possibility of that happening really worth causing a fuss at the school and the potential blowout with BM?
HotCocoa when she came to our house to demand that we hand over the kids, we did call the police. They asked her to leave and they're the ones who suggested the camera. They basically said there's not much we can do without a protection order. And H told them he'd already applied for a protection order and been denied. The last time she came to our house she got out of the car and tried to push her way in and was screaming at me and to a lesser degree at H. This time she didn't get out of the car she just demanded via text that we send them out. The kids didn't even know she was there. So I guess that's progress?
The purpose of the camera is to document every time she comes so that if he goes for a protection order he has photos/videos. H had actually said that he wanted to tell her about the camera. I said he shouldn't because I want the camera to catch her how she acts when she thinks no one is watching. My thought was that if she does something truly egregious and it's caught on camera then we're more likely to have another protection order approved. I think it's a moot point though because the kids were so excited about it, I bet they told her. As far as we can tell on the camera she hasn't been by since, at least not in a way that the camera catches.
Anyway HotCocoa, yes, I hope you never have to see your ex's wife as much as I see my husband's ex. It's awful. I don't think it's H's fault though, he sets really good boundaries and he does pretty much everything I ask him to do in regards to his ex. It's just that she can always find a way to insert herself. I am surprised at how scared of her I am! It's like she has a superpower of terrorizing people. I would love it if H could make her stop but unfortunately he just can't.
The other thing that's mixed up in all this is the right of first refusal issue, which keeps rearing its stupid ugly head. H has started documenting all the times she violates the provision, which as it turns out is almost every single day. The reason she picked up the kid is because she claimed that since H was unavailable that she was allowed to take the kid without telling him! And she's been harassing me about whether the kids are with me or not (spoiler: they never are, I mean H is pretty much almost always there). So that issue is kind of woven through all of this harassment. She's actually violating ROFR constantly and she's using her "suspicion" that H is violating it to harass us constantly. I hate this provision so much. She won't get rid of it and she won't follow it. I know we've been slow to engage the court and this issue has been lingering for years, but we both really wanted to try to work it out. Our Hail Mary - and I think what kicked some of this off - is that H told her, "OK, if you won't follow it I will follow your interpretation, which would mean I could leave the kids with PL for the same amounts of time as you leave the kids with your parents or boyfriend." That set her off and she about lost her mind at the thought that I would spend any time at all with the kids, even minutes, without H there. So I guess there's really no solution here other than court. Ughhhh, I'm dreading it. I think we'll put off a decision until after the holidays because there's a couple other things they need to resolve or go to court over. But either way court is probably inevitable.
Everytime she comes over to pick up the kids, that's not on her time, I would call the police. Yes, they tell you there's nothing they can do, but let them get sick of it, so you have reports now generated. I would also give the school a copy of the custody agreement and let them know that if there is ANY question before releasing the children, to give husband a call. Needs to be in the record. Schools don't want to be on the hook for releasing children when they shouldn't, especially if that child were to get hurt, major lawsuit. They will comply due to the fear of litigation. I know that sounds awful, but anyway that this can be stopped is the way to do it. I got to the point of a take no prisoners attitude because I never knew when the next shoe was going to drop. I felt like I had to be so diligent. It was hard, but after awhile, ex got the message, no meant no and if he didn't comply with the order, it was coming down on him negatively. Hang in there, be diligent and determined. Good luck.
Oh we will be calling the police. In fact we asked the officers what we should do if she comes back. And they told H not to even engage with her by text, to just call 911 from now on. Which is GREAT! He had felt like he had to tell her to leave before he called 911. But he's getting officers specifically recommending to him that he doesn't have to talk to her. We'll take it!
Both times we call the police on her they basically made her leave. I think she thought they were going to be on her side and force H to turn over the kids. So it didn't work out the way she envisioned and hopefully she'll get the message that showing up to our house isn't going to go well for her.
I agree that the schools will want to make sure they don't release a child to the wrong person, especially if they have been instructed specifically not to. I may be worth setting up a meeting with the Principal and asking what their process is and how a plan can be implemented to ensure this doesn't happen again.
What do the kids say about it, are they aware of what's going on?
I think sometimes the schools incorrectly assume that mom is the one with final say over the kids when that is not always the case. Also, in the case of PD parents, it is usually the parent who causes the most trouble so they are probably more likely to do what they say without question. I would have H call the school and ask if he can do anything to prevent this. Then see what they say and go from there. There may be no good options aside from maybe calling the police on her next time. I think that was our only option, but it was BM picking up SD on SO's day. I don't know what the case would be with the grandparents.
That ROFR is like a constant thorn in your side. I am sorry. :( I didn't realize that was why she sent her mom to get the kids. Maybe things will settle down once she is less mad about what H said to her about it. And if she flat out said, I am doing it the way the ROFR says and is pretending she's not breaking it, hopefully you can prove she's breaking it. Just keep documenting everything. And fingers crossed the camera helps either by preventing her nonsense or catching it on camera.
SL, Yeah, you're probably right. H has been reluctant to bring them into it. But maybe that's what makes the most sense.
The kids are mostly not aware. They didn't know she came to the house (unless she told them, but we have no indication that happened). They sort of knew that something was wrong on the day she picked them up from school. I think they were just picking up on our stress level. And then I think they were worried that THEY had done something wrong so I assured them that both kid and school did the right thing, it's just that they were supposed to come here not to mom's house. I tried to stop short of explicitly putting on her while still explaining why we were treating it like a problem. But it's SUCH a fine line to walk.
To be clear I wasn't suggesting that the kids tell the grandparents no - that would be awful. My point is that the people at the school don't have any reason to know whose day it is. So the kid tells the nurse or receptionist which parent they're with if they come home sick. So if H asked the school for something I guess there are two questions 1. does he give them the parenting schedule or does he just leave it to the kids to tell them and 2. what does he ask the school to do once they've figured out whose day it is?
Athene, I do think the school to some degree has deferred to her in the past, though I would say that's more because she removed H's contact info from the form without him realizing it'd happened. But it seems like increasingly, especially this year, they are onto her. The only reason they called her was because H didn't pick up. I don't think it's reasonable to ask them to keep calling him or email or whatever even after they've reached the mom. I mean the solution here should be VERY simple, when BM got the call from the school she should've immediately emailed or texted H. So the school didn't do anything wrong, I think that's part of why I'm struggling here. Asking them to remember this insanely complicated schedule and exactly who to call in what order, that just seems like too much to ask. They didn't do anything wrong and if they were working with reasonable coparents it wouldn't have been an issue at all.
It just seems really adversarial to say "grandma is banned from picking up the kids" but I guess BM stealing parenting time is the place to get adversarial and put his foot down. My guess is he'll want to wait to see if it keeps happening or dies down, but we can always keep it in our back pocket.
I just thought of maybe a solution. Maybe he can ask that if the school can't get a hold of him on his parenting day, that they email him and summarize what happened including whether BM is planning to pick up the kids? That way someone will notify him immediately.
I think there needs to be some patience too when the school calls. I mean, if they call DH and he doesn't answer, this isn't playing hot potato with a kid. Maybe give him a specific amount of time to call back, or they call you and if neither call back in X amount of time they can reach out to BM. If the kid is sick, you don't want them stuck at school, but on the other hand, laying in the nurses office for 20-30 minutes doesn't seem like the end of the world if it avoid further chaos.
The more I think about it the more I think that if he's going to ask the school to implement a change, he needs to discuss it with BM first. I realize that probably won't get him anywhere. But a very reasonable email that says basically "I wasn't happy with how this went, this is how I think we should both handle a similar situation in the future" would at least show he's trying. And then if she refuses and says she is going to continue to send her mom to pick the kids up on H's time he can escalate to the school and he can let them know that he tried to work this out with her.
Two years ago, we had trouble with stbx picking DS up from school in the middle of the day. It was stbx's stand alone day, but the order explicitly stated that his time with the kids began when the school day ended. So stbx picking DS up from school at noon was a violation of that order. The school couldn't do anything to stop him, until I provided them with a copy of the order. Then the principal spoke with the office staff and nurse and told them that I must be called anytime DS went to the nurse asking to go home. If it was stbx's time (his weekend) I was to contact stbx and let him know to pick DS up from the school.
I think the only way to stop this is to alert the school and send them a copy of the agreement. This way the kids aren't being put in the middle by BM or her parents.
I fear I may have some similar issues coming up (with stbx, not his parents). When (if) the settlement agreement is signed it voids our temporary custody order (which we are not following right now anyways). The settlement agreement only states we will work to get the kids back to the usual schedule, no timeline, no concrete plans...so there is nothing I can give to the school this year to show stbx can't pick up the kids on a random Friday. My L doesn't believe he will try this - she understands it's all about his image, and having the kids protest his presence at the school would not look good for him. That and he's too involved with hoovering supply #2, or is it #3?
I expect with holiday season fast approaching, stbx will only get worse when he realizes he can't force the old custody schedule onto the kids before the holidays start. I think your idea of focusing on what's going right, what's good, is a great idea. I may need to implement it soon! I can feel my anxiety levels increasing.
I wonder too if it happens again and bm is holding onto the kids rather than dropping them off to you (she coukd make a case for dropping off I guess), whether calling the police to meet you at her place is an option. In my experience if a situation caused exbpdh grief or inconvenience it didnt happen again
I hear you, Penny Lane, especially about feeling like you're in a bunker until she calms down. Every time my BF's nex flares up there's a debate between us about how to set boundaries 'this time'. His default is grey rock, but it's so hard for me accept because it always feels like bringing the hammer down might actually stop the bad behavior. But standing up to her occasionally really does make her worse. In order for it to be effective we'd have to be so smart about it - like actually have a concrete case against her that would stand up in court, and probably go to court.
The thing is, and I'm not well-informed here, but from what I know the courts aren't very helpful with PD issues because most judges and lawyers aren't up to speed on this kind of abuse. I wish that there were always a court-appointed family evaluator on custody cases, versed in the complexities of narcissistic abuse, who would read the emails & texts, talk to all of the family members, and see the patterns.
Sometimes I want to send BF's nex's emails to our friends and family so they can really see what we're dealing with. I also know that it takes first-hand experience to really understand how threatening and crazy-making it is.
My strategy during tough times, when I start wondering why I got myself into this mess, is to focus on myself (is there irony in that?). If I make plans with my friends, do a project that makes me happy, or just practice self-care, that always seems to do the trick. I'm a little more detached and my partner does a little more of the emotional labor. Voila!
WH, I'm sorry you're dealing with this too! I don't think our order is really explicit about this point. Like, it doesn't say "parents can't pick the kids up from school on the other parents' time." Although it does contain some boilerplate language about the parent whose time it is gets to make the day to day decisions - maybe it would fall under that? The problem I think comes back around to how chaotic their schedule is. If the schedule were more set, it would be easier for the school to keep track.
For now H decided to drop it. We're hoping this is a one-off escalation over some other stuff. If it continues to happen I think he's going to take the good advice here and address it with the school with the hopes that they can actually do something about it. Honestly we're just so exhausted by dealing with her that we're picking our battles lately and we're choosing to punt this one in the hopes that it will go away. (For the record, we're not hoping she will get better - that would be ridiculous. The hope is that H won't miss the call from the school in the future. He almost always has his phone on him and this was basically a fluke - he forgot it RIGHT as the school was calling.)
It is VERY difficult to focus on what things are going right when the other parent is trying so hard to make things go wrong. But I'm trying. I'm not really feeling the positive effects yet, but hopefully it helps shift my mindset long-term.
Rose, he thought about calling the police but she did turn the kid over when H showed up. The problem was that leading up to that for a couple hours she kept telling him she was going to bring the kid to his house, but she just ... didn't. Basically the police would've been an unnecessary escalation, but she shouldn't have had the kid in the first place much less lied to him about bringing the kid back. But yeah I think the way she behaves it's almost certain that at some point he will need to call the police to get the kids back.
HeavyHat, yes it's definitely all about strategy and about when to push back vs when to let stuff go. It's funny, when I first met H I felt like he didn't have nearly enough boundaries with BM. And so I really advocated that he do more grey rock, give in to her less. Nowadays he's like rock solid with his boundaries and it's me who's sometimes like "what if you just let this one go"? And he, rightly, will say "then she'll just keep pushing, it'll never end."
Strategically, though, he and I are coming up with a plan on court stuff. He did actually have a big victory in court a couple years ago, and things have been a lot better since. But BM is slipping back into her most nasty awful habits and so now we're trying to sort through, what can H live with? What does he feel so strongly about that he thinks they need to go to court? This is where that ROFR documentation comes in. At first I wanted him to let go the ROFR thing. But I can't live like this - where she refuses to follow ROFR and then harasses us because she feels like we might not be following THE SAME PROVISION THAT SHE'S NOT FOLLOWING. So, I guess court it is.
She's also in the middle her annual four-month period around the holidays of being broke, where she usually tells H that the kids' expenses - like, food and health insurance - "aren't in her Christmas budget." Like, okay, well it's more important for the kids to be able to eat food and have health care than to get a new drone or whatever??? We also can't keep living with the uncertainty in our own budget of whether she'll pay or not.
She has been doing this thing that she did last time right before things got really, really bad - she hasn't reimbursed H for anything in about a month but she's started asking him for reimbursement for bills that aren't part of the order. Last time around she said he was obligated to pay half of her rent because the kids live there too. It turned out she was setting up to argue that she never had to pay him anything "because they both owed each other for past expenses." But that wasn't true, SHE owed HIM and just didn't want to pay it. Later we found out that the kids' health insurance had lapsed right around the time she was doing this, which kicked off their yearslong court fight. And like I said he won in a lot of important ways but it was an awful stressful time and I'm just dreading doing it again.
All this to say, it seems that we are careening toward court and I hate it but there's not really a way to stop it, I feel.
And to your point about wanting to send her correspondence to family and friends - I've had some dark thoughts lately about wishing I could just say f you and make alllllll her business public. I'm so tired of their former mutual friends treating H like he's some kind of scary person. And having people not understand what it's like to live in constant fear that she will come to our house. Like this weekend I had friends over and she was threatening to "stop by" and H wasn't even there and I was like, am I going to have to call the police on her in front of my friends?? Fortunately she backed down but still it's just like constant stress over stuff like that.
Anyway OF COURSE I would never broadcast her bad behavior and when I start getting into that spiral it's a sign that I really, really need a break. I should focus on some of that self care but with the holidays it's hard because there's so much going on. I think that stress is contributing for me too. So I think I will take that good advice and make a gratitude list! It can't hurt right? And this is the season for gratitude.
I think HotCoco has offered some good advice - of the kind that has worked for us.
I do short emails like you mentioned to the school. I take a hyper reasonable position and a friendly, generous tone. I copy my ex. Then, he takes me off the chain and sends them a rant. Then the people at the school give me hugs when I come there. He has, apparently, pissed them all off completely.
We (my fiancé and I) also go to the school a lot and make friends. I bring smiles and generally make it pleasant to run into me. It does not hurt that all the school ladies think my fellow is adorable, lol. It became kind of a thing over there - the school ladies nudging him and asking him when he was going to put a ring on it. And now they are very happy about that and practically planning the wedding.
Arkhangel, I hear you about the hugs from the school staff. When we were together, expdh would wreak havoc at the school. I would be mortified and always in damage control mode. Since we separated in 2013 and he is MIA, the support from school staff is unbelievable. Teachers and principal hugs when I go into the school. It's such a breath of fresh air not having to worry about how he will insult the next school staff member. It's just me, my rapport, my contact, my reputation and it's all so great. The best is I can just be me and I am well respected and liked. Contrary to what expdh used to rant that I was a piece of crap and I was only loveable and liked by all because of him. Ya. Whatever. :stars:
Arkhangelsk, that story is adorable and it warmed my heart! I love it.
I've always told DH he needs to do somewhat of a PR campaign with the school and other parents. He used to feel really awkward about being the only dad in the room or interacting with people that BM might have poisoned against him. Plus, I think he's already sort of behind because they expect the mom to be the one who handles things (and I can't get too mad about that because as far as I can tell pretty much none of the kids' friends dads, divorced or no, are anywhere near as involved in school or anything else). But! That stereotype can work both ways, right? I think he's won over a lot of people by showing up at times when no other dad does. And more importantly BM always shows herself, even if she makes a good first impression. She has gone after the staff, various teachers, other parents, basically everyone over the years. She is also incredibly unreliable so people have learned that they HAVE to call H if they want to get a response about something. And so slowly people have learned to call H and that means that BM is not able to prevent him from getting information from the school, or disrupt playdate invites from other parents. This was certainly a negative outlier. But it's far better than the first year after the divorce, when she went in and removed all his contact information from school forms and pretended like it was somehow H's fault that he wasn't getting correspondence from the school.