NMIL with children

Feathergirl · January 02, 2024, 06:21:57 AM

Happy New Year to you all! It has a while since I posted, I've been NC with MIL for 8 years (!) and life has been good until this Christmas.

My issues with my PDMIL are as follows: mainly that she played games around whether she would come to our wedding, then didn't attend our wedding, tried to gatecrash mine and DH's holiday, trying to swoop in when I was newly postpartum firstly with my poorly singleton and then with our twins, boundary stomping, being rude, rugsweeping, recruiting and using flying monkeys yadda yadda yadda you get the picture.

DH and I married in 2016, he was LC from before the wedding until the pandemic and then has been getting closer to her and is now firmly back in the FOG.

I allow him to visit her with our three children (7,4 and 4), this only happens about once every two months, I'm not happy with the situation but it keeps the peace and stops her wailing about not having access to the grandchildren. They seem to enjoy the visits, have a good opinion of MIL and seemed genuinely comfortable with extended IL family when I saw them over the Christmas break. However, I've been voicing concerns about the children having such a lot of contact with MIL when she has shown such disrespect for their mother.

Every time there is a family gathering (fortunately main FM SIL lives a plane journey away so these are twice a year max) there is pressure on me to 'let bygones be bygones' and join in the family gatherings like nothing ever happened. I refuse to join as life is just so much better without her in it. I always arrange to see other DH family members without MIL present. The pressure this Christmas was unbearable. At one point they seemed to be attempting to stage an intervention with MIL, FM SIL and me in my own kitchen to 'sort this out', as suggested by DH. I noped out, went to work and frankly cried a lot.

I've said MIL needs to put right the harm she's caused, show ability to self-reflect and improve her behaviour and I'll consider being back in touch with her. This has been interpreted by DH simply as 'she needs to say sorry' and he wants me to meet her, without him being present which I have pointed out is wrong and ludicrous. We tried 'reconciling' before everything, in 2015 - she just sat there verbally abusing me and was the incident that initially caused DH to go LC. Yes, I have looked into divorce, it's not something I can do at the moment, but it's something I'm considering in the long term.

DH and I left it at him requested me to arrange a meeting with her for what will I think will be a fake apology. I confirmed that he wanted me to put myself in the same position I was in in 2015 where I got verbally abused. I then refused to speak any more about it as it was making me feel sick.

Since then, I have not brought up in conversation anything to do with MIL or his family, and neither has DH. Life's been great. This helped me realise how good NC has been for me and our marriage, and I want the present arrangement to continue. However, to avoid a similar big blow up like we had this Christmas, I'm thinking about being in contact with MIL a couple of times a year to enable her to see the children (she wouldn't see them at any other time). I also suspect not all of the dialogue at DH's family gathering was respectful of me, so this set up would enable me to keep an eye on that too. Whether or not she gives an apology is irrelevant, I'm not going to meet her in person, she can do it as a letter if she wants.

bloomie · January 02, 2024, 12:09:13 PM

Hi Feathergirl - so glad you reached out and shared about the current challenges facing you and your DH with his FOO and especially his mother. I am so sorry! Navigating this kind of family estrangement is complicated and painful.

So many alarm bells rang out inside of me as I read through your post. May I ever so gently share from my own in law experinces some thoughts?

After treating you horribly and not even honoring your wedding day, intrusive and harmful behaviors after you kiddos were born, your mil is now enjoying regular visits with your family without you there in order to "keep the peace" and prevent mil "wailing" and kicking up a fuss about living with the consequences of her disrespectful behavior.

Do you see how you have allowed the role of peace keeper to be off loaded onto you? Do you see that you have been required to accommodate contact with your precious kiddos that you do not want with a woman who mistreats you? In this way, you and your DH have reinforced the notion that your mil and sil and extended family can raise a ruckus and get what they want.

You see, you may not physically be present, but possibly, emotionally you are carrying the responsibility of it all and still in full contact.

From where I sit on this side of the screen knowing very little, this latest Christmas pressure to let bygones be bygones is just a continuation of the same. It is Feathergirl's responsibility to endure and ignore, rugsweep and attend functions and... oh, by the way meet one on one with a woman who has shown nothing but disdain and disregard for her.

Quote from: Feathergirl on January 02, 2024, 06:21:57 AMSince then, I have not brought up in conversation anything to do with MIL or his family, and neither has DH. Life's been great. This helped me realise how good NC has been for me and our marriage, and I want the present arrangement to continue. However, to avoid a similar big blow up like we had this Christmas, I'm thinking about being in contact with MIL a couple of times a year to enable her to see the children (she wouldn't see them at any other time). I also suspect not all of the dialogue at DH's family gathering was respectful of me, so this set up would enable me to keep an eye on that too. Whether or not she gives an apology is irrelevant, I'm not going to meet her in person, she can do it as a letter if she wants.

Feathergirl - if these people do not value you enough to not speak ill of you when you are not present your presence is not going to change that. You cannot police that or change that by physically being there, ime.

You do not owe these folks anything but respectful, cordial hellos should you see them. You do not have to gather with them for holidays. You do not have to sit down and talk something out with a person who has, by consistent behaviors over time, proven themselves unsafe.

I can only say that each of us have to figure out what level of contact works, if any, for us with these family dynamics. But, for us the prize, the goal, the win was for mil and sil to have DH back in the fold. Without me. To, as they put it, 'get him back'. Because they lost him when he married me. So. Stinkin'. Weird.

We chose vvLC and to always present a united front. You want one of us? You get all of us. And it was extremely difficult for my own foggy DH to begin to adjust to the notion that the priority is our marriage and our children. We didn't do this easily and we needed counsel and help from others who could see the potential for harm all of this was to our FOC.

Whatever you and your DH choose to do going forward one of our hero members here, Starboard Song puts it like this only says it better

, don't allow people who do not love you to come between you. Choose each other. Cling to each other and keep focused on the health and wellbeing of you, your marriage, and your kiddos.

This may be part of our life package to some degree, but we don't have to take on responsibility for the dysfunction, disruptive behaviors, and family dynamics when in reality we are powerless to change or control anything other than ourselves. Hugs to you! Keep sharing and coming back.

Feathergirl · January 03, 2024, 12:52:44 AM

Thank you so much for responding Bloomie, it's so validating to get feedback from someone who understands. I'm so sorry you've been in a similar situation too.

I'd been thinking about the roles I play in his family, I'd not even considered peacemaker but you are absolutely right. I need to give up that role. It's also absolutely about wanting DH 'back in the fold' playing the role of carefree wayward teenager rather than the amazing father he is and is happy being. I find it very telling that he's still not mentioning his family at all around me, I think a lot became clear for him over the festive season and he's got a lot to process. I'm working on finding us time for couples therapy but finding childcare when you cannot rely on family is a challenge!

bloomie · January 03, 2024, 09:25:10 AM

Quote from: Feathergirl on January 03, 2024, 12:52:44 AMI'd been thinking about the roles I play in his family, I'd not even considered peacemaker but you are absolutely right. I need to give up that role. It's also absolutely about wanting DH 'back in the fold' playing the role of carefree wayward teenager rather than the amazing father he is and is happy being. I find it very telling that he's still not mentioning his family at all around me, I think a lot became clear for him over the festive season and he's got a lot to process. I'm working on finding us time for couples therapy but finding childcare when you cannot rely on family is a challenge!

Feathergirl - I think this pause your DH and you are instinctively taking is so wise. I wish I had had more of that type of insight earlier in my own marriage. There is nothing urgent or pressing in all of this and for sure there is a lot to process. Sending you strength and clarity in the coming days and weeks.

mustard_seed · January 04, 2024, 01:35:51 PM

Bloomie has, as always, given wise counsel and I agree with everything she's said.

It's been helpful for me in similar scenarios to think about why my husband is doing what he's doing. Before this pause you mentioned, when he was urging you to "reconcile" and talk things through with her, why do you think he was doing that? Many wise people on these boards have pointed out that this is often because the husband is desperate for relief from MIL's ways, whatever they may be.

In my case, she harasses my husband regularly about how I should be back in contact and if I gave in and did it, it would give him peace. But then my peace would be gone, and in reality, the peace in our marriage would as well. We don't have kids, so it's probably easier in many ways for me to stay away.

I guess I'm just trying to point out some of the mechanisms of being the peacemaker, which may already be obvious to you.

You sound level-headed and reasonable and I hope you and your DH are able to navigate this in a way that makes your family better and healthier in the long run.

Rose1 · January 05, 2024, 09:35:54 AM

I also dealt with this for many years. When I was very young I didn't want to come between my exbpdh and his ubpdm. I was despite trying, subjected to many attempts to control our marriage and me to knuckle under and do what I was told. Exbpdh at first resisted some of this but slowly became an enabler for his mother and it got to the point that he was in an emotionally incestuous relationship with her, spending any time we had together with the in-laws in long conversations in a corner with mother.

This was after about 10 years. I turned 30 and started to realise that it was never going to change. We had 2 kids and in some ways it was harder but I had more incentive to protect the kids than I had to protect me.

I still regret allowing time with the kids and mil as she went out of her way to do the opposite of anything I requested, to the point of feeding the kids things they were allergic to. I did not come Out of the FOG until after the marriage ended and exbpdh never did.

The marriage ended at 22 years partly due to their complete lack of respect to our marriage and his going along with that. He very rarely protected me.

In hindsight I should have gone completely NC with his parents and let him take the fall out. Bloomie is completely correct, you are being made the peacemaker except it's not peace for you, it's only appeasement for your mil who has learned that tantrums get her way, much like my exmil did.

Whether it would have saved the marriage in my case is doubtful as ex was diagnosed with bpd as well and as he got older started to exhibit the same behaviour as mother to get his way.

However, best advice I ever got which I didn't take was to get exbpd to agree to our marriage being the primary relationship and to honour that and deal with his mother's behaviour.

It seems you are half way there. Often allowing the fogged party to experience the full bpd treatment without a buffer has had a good effect. I wish you all the best and encourage you not to allow yourself to get into a situation where you are alone with your mil. If she's anything like my exmil there will be a lot of falsehoods come out of a meeting with no 3rd party to moderate the behaviour.
Take care

Feathergirl · January 05, 2024, 10:34:13 AM

I've read so much about the dynamic I'm currently facing on these boards over the last few days - it seems NC wife with husband visiting MIL with the kiddos is a fairly common situation.

I do wonder about how he gets on at MIL's with the 3 of them on his own - they are demanding, as children usually are, and it's probably hard for them to have much 'quality conversation'. I suspect they want me there to do the childcare (it's the woman's job after all they would say

) and then they would have a better chance at getting him back into his role of the 'happy-go-lucky person he used to be' (I've had a FM's friend use this phrase at me).

In the past it's worked in my favour when I've encouraged him to visit on his own, I think MIL is at breaking point anyway at having to play the role of 'loving lovely grandma' to our children in an attempt to suck me back in - yet another reason she needed me back in contact this Christmas. She has been in the lovebomb stage of the cycle of abuse for years at this point and cannot move to the next stage without me 'back'.

treesgrowslowly · January 07, 2024, 10:34:12 AM

Hi Feathergirl,

I concur with the great advice and insight already given - Bloomie knows her stuff!!

A few things that I've learned, that came to mind as I read your OP.

1. If your MIL is an EIP (emotionally immature person) then you may benefit from learning what Lindsay Gibson says about how to interact with such people, and how to preserve your own sanity when in relationships with these folks! If you have not already watched her videos / checked out her books. I love her focus, it has helped me to understand so much.

One thing she has taught me, is why problems are not resolved in the way I would want them resolved, because when the MIL is emotionally immature, the "problem solving" doesn't really happen.

As you said, an "apology" from your MIL would probably be insincere... and it sounds like you already know that her apologies don't lead to any real change in her behavior. Worse, if she "faux-pologizes" and you STILL don't do what she says, she's got her narrative about how she's the real victim. This is where they will say "I apologized to Feathergirl, why is she still being like this?" (when "being like this" is having boundaries with her).

Too many immature people, think that if they apologize to us, we've now agreed not to have boundaries with them. Immature people see boundaries as problems, as barriers to getting what they want. Mature people know that boundaries are good and healthy and necessary in all relationships. No "meeting" is going to make your MIL understand your boundaries, but according to Lindsay Gibson, we can try for a relationship with them, if we're willing to repeat our boundaries over and over.

2. The topic of grandparents using grandkids for narc supply is a frequent one on these boards - because when the MIL is narcissistic, the power play is all about having access to grandkids, for the supply they provide (i.e. photos she can take and post on social media etc...). Your gut instincts here are to be trusted. Down the line, as your kids get older, it will be harder for her to get supply out of them. This will confuse them. When they are so young, under age 10, it is easier for her to play the doting grandma role. Others here can talk about how that shifts as the grandkids get older, and the MIL's immaturity becomes more of a problem for you and your kids to be entangled with.

Your MIL's rug-sweeping skills sound pretty well honed. She wants everyone to pretend, and act like the past didn't happen. Uh huh. Not possible for those of us who are not in the FOG or entangled with her, right? Since you're not FOGGY about her, but your DH kinda is, from the sounds of it, you have a familiar dilemma, which is how to manage her demands of you and your kids, when she's too immature to really play fair. She's going to do really immature things, to get what she wants, and her FM's are enabling the dysfunction.

You're not going to make any real progress with her becoming more self-aware than she is today. She's who she is - in the sense that she's going to keep doing the same things over and over. If she's emotionally stunted and / or narcissistic, there's no real hope for a sudden growth spurt where she all of a sudden becomes self-aware and reflective...is there?

Some people in your situation take one for the team, and go along with the visits, mostly to be present while she's around your kids. Some others in your situation stay home, and let their DH figure out the visit with his immature mother. Pros and cons to each, obviously. No matter what, the goal for you is not to be sucked into her dramas. And protect your kids from being sucked into her dramas.

Your MIL sounds like she knows how to set up the drama triangle (persecuter, victim, rescuer) like a pro.

It is very good that you are on top of this now and thinking about what you want to do with her demands of you and your family.

Basically, I think the narc / unhappy MIL uses her un-Foggy DIL to perpetuate her drama triangle. In her mind, she's the victim of her "awful uncaring DIL" Feathergirl...

I went through it myself. Eventually I hit a wall and refused to participate in MIL's drama triangle anymore.

Trees

Feathergirl · January 08, 2024, 08:08:45 AM

Thank you so much for your responses. TreesGrowSlowly - what did you do to get out of the drama triangle? Divorce?

I'm thinking of giving her want she wants FOR NOW at a very surface level, so the kids going up there a limited number of times for a limited amount of times, with me there. DH is so fogged at the moment, if I go to hers, give her what she wants, and she still complains (she will), that gets me off the hook with DH, right? I've been listening to the Lindsay Gibson podcasts about observing them 'with a lab coat on', like animals. I'm also going to heavily push for him to spend time alone with her. I've also been listening to Ken Adams, interesting yet nauseating.

Rose1 · January 08, 2024, 08:25:46 AM

On separation exbpdh became the absent parent. Always lots.if accusations and excuses it absent nevertheless.
Exubpdmil wanted to spend time with the kids, now 6 and 10. There was no way I was going to facilitate that, as far as I was concerned it was their father's responsibility to see they spent some time with her. He didnt much.

AT first I was pretty irritated by that but I have since come to understand that I dodged a bullet. It was bad enough to get the kids back into normal routines after a visit. I said no to overnights (youngest was unwell), but really they couldn't be trusted to handle medication or normal supervision of a 6 year old and left a lot of this to her sister which was also unfair.

Exbpdh dropped them off occasionally instead of spending time with them himself, and went off to do his thing. This left the girls at the mercy of some pretty fierce parental alienation. This also came from their father.

In the end it was this that caused the split between parent, grandparent and the girls. Youngest decided NC at age 12,, oldest kept to minimal contact, finally severing all contact at agen 24. She had sort of been the golden child but as she said "got her very own shade of black"

It has impacted the girls in a number of ways, mostly around being abandoned. But I believe they are much better adjusted than they would have been with regular visits.

Parental alienation is a terrible thing especially when it's always brought up. I can see from others how it messes with the kids.of course saying anything immediately increased it.
And it did get worse once oldest hit teens because she didn't go along with it, had her own opinion and generally was the mature adult in the relationship. Sad really.

treesgrowslowly · January 08, 2024, 08:37:11 AM

In my case, MIL was not willing to push for visits, so the effort just stopped on all sides.

I think it is more common in the waif-types. I know there are plenty of MILs who do not give up like that.

And as with my own dysfunctional FOO, as the grandkids get older, the narcs lose interest because supply is harder to get out of a pre-teen than a cute toddler. So we were casually discarded as we got older.

Trees