Hi,
My title was too long for the subject line: "How can you decide whether a PD is responsible for their actions, or whether they are too mentally ill to be held responsible?"
I ponder this because, over the years, various people have said that my NPD mother was mentally ill, and others have said that a NPD friend with whom I ended a friendship could not be held accountable for her treatment of me because she had mental problems. I don't want to be unsympathetic to my mother or to this friend, but it always seemed to me that they were choosing how to behave. I certainly saw both of them behave well when there was something in it for them. Thoughts on this topic? Also, when people say this to me I always feel guilty for holding them accountable for their behavior.
This is a good question, but for me it comes down to taking responsibility and ownership over one's behavior. I have Bipolar Disorder and it is not an excuse to behave poorly or treat other people like crap. In the long run does it matter if it's mental illness or not?
For me, I would want to know if the abuser was getting help for their mental instability. If they are then I might be more sympathetic. But continuing to abuse from a place of abuse is no excuse regardless of mental state. There are consequences to both sides, I think. If someone has mental problems then they are responsible for how they DEAL with that -- and that means accepting that not everyone will be accepting of them. That is for them to own and no one else. We all get to decide who is allowed in our lives, blood or not, based on behavior.
For me it is more about the behavior than the cause of the behavior. Mental illness, choice, whatever. If they cannot respect my boundaries I limit contact since I have a moral code that does not allow me to subject myself to abuse.
Thank you for your replies!
Absent Minded Artist, In an effort to understand my friend, I read various blogs by people who were Bipolar, and they also said that they held themselves accountable for their actions. My friend had received a Bipolar diagnosis several times, but would not accept it. For years, I tried to deal with her, but once I finally accepted that she would not get help, I had to move on. I felt sad and guilty, but I couldn't take the abuse. I don't even necessarily think that this part of her behavior had to do with being Bipolar, but I know she would have felt better if she had received treatment and then those around her would have felt better too. It is not an easy diagnosis to receive, I know, but I have seen the lives of two people turn around when they received treatment. When I described this friend to one of them, she said, "I can't understand not wanting to be well."
Pepin, both people about whom I posted refused to receive treatment. As I just wrote to Absent Minded Artist, I could no longer take their behavior, after many years of tolerance.
Coyote, I wish I had been more like you during these relationships: Insisting that my boundaries be respected. Instead, I suffered through years of abuse, only to have some people--as I said in my initial post on this thread--say that I should be accepting of the behavior because the people were mentally ill. I think that yours is the correct approach, and one which I will also use from now on.
Like you saw with your M and friend, my parents could control their behavior if they wanted to, they could be positively charming and sweet if it was in their interest.
For me it boiled down to: Is their behavior healthy for me? The answer was a sad but clear No, and therefore I had to draw the consequences. I couldn't control their behavior towards me, but I can control how I behave as a consequence of their behavior. So I decided to take care of myself, I lowered contact, used MC, added more boundaries, and instead of trying to fix their chaotic world I started to do more things for myself. Neither of my parents saw a need to get professional help, even in moments when they acknowledged they had problems, they thought it was my job to fix them and simply take their abuse.
You are responsible for your life, which includes protecting it. If your M or friend would hit you physically, nobody would tell you - I hope - "they cannot help it" and suggest that you should just deal. Using words to hit you is no different than a hand in the end, except it makes it so much harder to understand and acknowledge for ourselves what is happening and how it is harming us. This is a great article that really helped me understand this: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=13369.0
By the way when somebody says "they cannot help it" it means for me they are to lazy to think about what I said, to scared or lazy to try and slip into my shoes for a moment. They don't want to hear about what I have to say and are trying to shut the topic down with a pat answer.
Also, while you might feel compassion for your M or your friend, it doesn't mean you have to endure their abuse, be available for it. You aren't a punching bag in a gym, you are a human being with feelings and your own needs, like being safe and loved. Yes, they need help, but the help they need neither you or I can give as we aren't trained professionals.
I struggled wi4h this too. I had alot of guilt for leaving my H. He would cry, beg forgivness.
It took a therapist, this forum, and alot of time away from him to see the truth. He was mean only to ME, in private, or when away form people he knew. It was 100% controllable. He knew he was doing it.
On the rare occasion he would lash out at a stranger when we were in public, it wasnhorrifying to watch. I could not make the connection that it was my regular life i was winessing for a long time.
Imo, you have no need to be guilty.
Thank you for your replies, practical and Spygirl,
practical, you make a really good point about how no one would tell me to just take it if the PDS in my life were physically hitting me, instead of "just" verbally abusing me. My mother did physically attack me once, and this PD friend broke things in my house, but in general, they were not physically abusive. Thank you for the link; I look forward to reading the article.
You make a very good point that even though these people need help, it is professional help which they need. Allowing ourselves to be their punching bags does not help them.
Spygirl, what you said about witnessing your husband lashing out at a stranger and realizing that this was what you endured on a regular basis was so moving. And you know, it made me realize that when my friend would last out at strangers I would also be horrified, but never stopped to think that this was how she often treated me.
As I think about what you both wrote--and I so appreciate your posts--I ask myself why did I allow this treatment to continue? And when people told me that these people couldn't help themselves because of their mental issues, why didn't I just tell those people off? As I said, I witnessed both of these PDs be absolutely charming in public (at those times when THEY weren't lashing out), so I know that both of them were capable of behaving very well when there was something in it for them. It wasn't as if they were in the midst of psychotic breaks when they were with me; they had just as much control at those times as they did at others, but they already "had" me, so felt free to let it fly.
Thank you to everyone who replied. You have helped me put this issue to rest. PDS are responsible and we are responsible for knowing when to draw boundaries.
In DBT, they teach 4 basic assumptions for interpersonal effectiveness, which I think are helpful in considering this issue:
1) We need to interpret things in the most benign way possible,
2) There is no one or any absolute truth,
3) Everyone is doing the best they can in this moment, and
4) Everyone needs to try harder.
I love these so much I printed them out and stuck them on my fridge. I particularly like the last two; the way they express the balance between acceptance and change.
So basically, whilst PDs may have reasons for acting the way they do, they are still accountable. They, like everyone else, can do better. It is reasonable for us to expect them to do better.
Coyote has a good point that in a sense it doesn't matter why the behave as they do; what does matter is how we respond. That being said, I find I am able to maintain stronger boundaries if I keep these assumptions in mind. If i forget them, and lose the non-judgmental mindset, then i can feel guilty about setting boundaries.
Whereas if i hold true to these assumptions, i feel good about myself and know that my actions are fuelled by courageous compassion.
I take care of myself first. I wasn't given second chances when I scewed up before. And also, when someone is out to screw, they are already one or more steps ahead of you.
Do you really want to trust someone who so easily forgets.
And finding out whether they are getting professional help for what ever???? Oh dear, mind your own business and even if they did tell you......... they may realise where you want to go with that info and say what you want to hear.
Thank you for your replies, Hattie and StayWithMe,
One reason I posted this query about whether PDS are responsible for their actions, even when they have mental issues, is because one of my longtime friends refused treatment for Bipolar One. For years, I got calls in the middle of the night when she was having an episode, and was in constant contact with her when she was hospitalized, so she made it all my business. Each time, she would tell me her diagnosis, which never varied, Bipolar One. Then, when she was released, she would refuse to take medication. This went on for twenty years. It would take too long to describe what happened after her last hospitalization, but suffice it to say that it was apparent that she would never take the correct meds. In fact, after her first hospitalization, she instead found a personal care physician who would give her whatever she wanted, and that was an antidepressant, which is counter indicated for Bipolar One, because given unilaterally it often causes long episodes of hypomania, which is what happened with her.
But, despite everything, including having the police called by people when she had extreme anger meltdowns, she would not receive help.
Finally, I just couldn't take anymore, because she was so abusive to me, over a period of many, many years. My husband couldn't take having her around either, because she created so much tension on weekends, when we both needed to relax and unwind. My BFF dreaded seeing her. I felt so bad for having to withdraw that I spoke to a therapist, who told me that if I wouldn't withdraw to help myself that I should do so for the sake of my husband and friends, and even for my animals. And she said that I wasn't helping my friend, because she clearly felt that things would continue as they were, even if she wasn't treated. The therapist said that sometimes people have to see what their behavior is causing before they get help.
I feel very bad for my friend. Her life would be so much better if she would get help. But she would not. If her disease were treated, she would have as much chance for a happy life as any of us do.
You're doing way too much for someone who is just a friend. I'm not sure I would put with this with a family member these days. Either I would freeze them out or keep them on a leash ie See them only one on one.
Talking about someone's mental health is very tricky. I don't have a high opinion of therapists ... guess I've had some bad ones. Plus, I find it interesting that other people will tell you you need one. ...... when in fact they could use one as well. And if they refust to take their medication and YOU know that, what a mess.
Don't lose your husband and your BFF over this woman ...... you could end up wit another.
Hi Staywithme,
Thank you, as always, for the good advice.
I did decide that I had to withdraw from this friend. It was painful for me to do so, but I had to. All she really wanted from the friendship was a place to spend weekends, and those weekends became a horror show for us. We constantly walked on eggshells, trying not to do or say anything that would spark a meltdown. I also had to watch her around my animals. Some of the actions I could describe were truly scary.
Actions have consequences, and I think the issue depends on whether or not the person doing the acting sees the real consequences of those actions. People with actual brain chemistry abnormalities may not be able to do this since they're interpreting reality from a perspective different from ours. But that doesn't mean their issues should become ours. As others above have said, there's a point where you just need to give up trying to understand them and simply accept that's the way they are. The choice of whether or not to keep them in your life then becomes yours.
I know the entire point of this forum is to try to understand the PD, but the understanding is primarily meant to help us in dealing with the PDs in our life. In my interactions with PDs, they absolutely seem to know what they're doing, and don't care. They accept their behavior as who they are and throw all expectations of accommodation onto you. The rare ones who are able to see the damage they do and recognize it as damage they caused may try to get help, but how they come to that realization while the majority don't is something I, as a non-PD, can't say. But someone on this site once posted a link to an article that, to me, really gave a good explanation of why most PDs don't seek help and that explanation was because they think everyone is just like they are, that we're all lying and controlling and manipulating etc. so they spend their life trying to keep a step ahead of everyone else. The damage they cause to others is simply them striking first. Thus the incessant need for control. If they didn't, then others would do it to them. They don't have enough empathy to see situations from anyone else's point of view--something we can do--which is why we spend so much time and effort trying to deal with them, understand them. They, on the other hand, just don't worry about it! (A generalization, I know, and I apologize for that).
"Holding accountable" is backward looking: shall we punish someone for wrongdoing? Shall we expect them to make restitution for harm done? When answering these backward looking questions, as we do for legal liability and criminal courts, we often must decide whether people are culpable, or innocent like a child is innocent, by reason of true lack of control.
When we struggle with loved ones or acquaintances with a personality disorder, it is far more likely we are forward looking: shall I continue to engage with this person? Can I safely trust my heart to them again? What precautions and boundaries are necessary to make that possible?
When answering these forward looking questions, I doubt culpability is at all relevant. If a car were careening toward you on the sidewalk in a tourist city, you may fear that it is a terrorist, bent on attacking and killing you: morally culpable to be sure. Imagine someone by your side said, "don't worry, I can see that the driver is slumped unconscious over the wheel. He is having a medical emergency and is not trying to hurt you." Would this change your behavior at all? Would you not run? Not seek cover?
Or course the driver's condition is not relevant to your self-protection. A person predictably doing you harm is someone to reliably protect yourself from, just as you'd run and take cover from a car collision without regard for the driver's intent or moral culpability. When we take steps to protect ourselves from predictable mistreatment, we are not holding anyone accountable. We are not punishing them or declaring them responsible for their actions. Without regard for such considerations, we are meeting our obligations to ourselves. We may do so kindly. We may do so with love. But we must do so without fail.
If you don't get off that sidewalk, you'll be no good to yourself or those who love and rely upon you.
Quote from: clara on March 04, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
In my interactions with PDs, they absolutely seem to know what they're doing, and don't care. They accept their behavior as who they are and throw all expectations of accommodation onto you.
:yeahthat:
I remember when I once told my M that she was too Needy. Her reply was: Yeah, so I'm needy, so what?
It never occurred to her how that affected anyone who had to deal with her. She never reflected on that. She simply expected others to deal with it.
And her arrogance convinced her that she was worth it. :stars:
Nope,
~Jade
Hi clara, Starboard and jade63,
The consensus seems to be that ultimately it doesn't matter whether PDs are responsible or not, that we just "need to get off that sidewalk" when they careen toward us, to paraphrase Starboard. This is what I came to see with my Bipolar One friend who refused treatment. (I have to say that the careening car metaphor really works for her, because she was constantly getting speeding tickets in residential zones, and was always able to get out of paying them by hiring high-priced traffic lawyers.) Have to say here that I know people with Bipolar One who have gotten treatment and are living productive lives, but she doesn't want to be one of them.
And I agree with clara that we probably spend a lot more time wondering about the motivations and makeup of PDs, because of our empathy, than they spend worrying about us. In fact, I agree with the writer of that article that often PDs seem to assume that we ARE like them, so they figure we're going to treat them the way they treat everyone. You know, I was always amazed that my NPD friend did think we were alike. It used to creep me out, really. She went through a phase where she would say that we were "in the bubble," and would even say if something trivial happened to me, like a stubbed toe for example, that she should have known because she had a bruise on her foot. During this period, I was trying to get away from her; the last place I wanted to be was "in the bubble" with her!
And jade63, I have seen that knowing-but-not-caring attitude of your M. I find it jaw-dropping.
I understand that it's a disorder, a deeply ingrained mechanism and way of seeing the world that is probably a disordered response to early psychological trauma, shame, etc. I understand that the person is unlikely to change or seek real help.
But at some point, it's really for them to look inward. These are not stupid people and they could, if they chose to, see the repeating pattern of damaged relationships and ruined situations THEIR behavior has created.
Whether they choose to do that work or not, it's not my job to endlessly tolerate poor treatment because they're "sick".
Hi Swarley,
I think you make some really good points. For example, my friend who won't accept her diagnosis does function in the world, and she knows that so many of her friendships have ended over the years because of her behavior. About six months before I accepted that I had to withdraw from her because she refused to get help, another longtime friend had to withdraw from the relationship. This person also told her that she needed to make changes, but instead of accepting that she tried to strong-arm the friend into resuming the relationship. It did not work.
When I started insisting upon some boundaries, she had a huge anger meltdown with me, but I stuck to my guns. She erupted twice more, and that was it. For years, I had tried to explain to her that she would lose friends if she didn't change. But it was more important to her to behave exactly as she wanted to behave.
While discussing all of this with another friend, I kept hearing that I should not be angry at my friend, because she could not help herself. But throughout our friendship, I had seen her behave in a very charming manner when she met new people, or when she wanted to behave well, for whatever reason.
QuoteBut it was more important to her to behave exactly as she wanted to behave.
Too many people believe that anything less than "being yourself" is in authentic and game playing.
That is so true, Staywithme.
In this woman's case, "being herself" consisted of unbelievable displays of anger. I remember she once told me that she and the longterm friend who dropped her used to have big arguments and think nothing of it. She said, "Once a cake was thrown." I bet I know by whom... It is sort of a funny image, because of the comic associations of pie-throwing, I would bet, but not so funny in actuality, I'm sure. At any rate, I guess these arguments were not as okay with this friend as she thought, because the woman withdrew completely and totally after a while.
This woman could seem so charming and even witty. Seeing at these times, one might have found it difficult to believe that she was the same person with such a hellish temper, but it became so that her angry personality seemed like her true self to me, and to others.
There's understanding their disorder, then there's accepting that understanding. It's hard for non-PDs to accept the disorder for what it is. But, imagine if we were asked to be like them. Most of us couldn't do it, wouldn't even know how to start. I think they would regard being asked to be like us is, for them, the same dilemma. That's not who they are.
Hi clara,
I think you make a good point. But yet my friend did know how to charm people, so she could behave well, when there was something she wanted. So I think she knew how to behave, but I agree that it was unnatural for her.
Quote from: countrygirl on February 28, 2019, 09:15:01 AM
Hi,
My title was too long for the subject line: "How can you decide whether a PD is responsible for their actions, or whether they are too mentally ill to be held responsible?"
I ponder this because, over the years, various people have said that my NPD mother was mentally ill, and others have said that a NPD friend with whom I ended a friendship could not be held accountable for her treatment of me because she had mental problems. I don't want to be unsympathetic to my mother or to this friend, but it always seemed to me that they were choosing how to behave. I certainly saw both of them behave well when there was something in it for them. Thoughts on this topic? Also, when people say this to me I always feel guilty for holding them accountable for their behavior.
I've learned, for myself, that instead of overthinking and trying to figure out answers to philosophical and existential questions such as the one you are presenting, it is much healthier and effective for me to see the behavior for what it is, and distance myself from it.
PDs are PDs, you and I both know their behavioral traits.
Those behavioral traits are as inexcusable as murder; conducted by the mentally ill or not.
But if you want an answer to your question...
They know what they are doing is wrong, they just don't do anything to stop themselves.
Just because they're mentally ill doesn't excuse them from the responsibility of being a decent human being.
Regarding the guilt you're feeling for holding someone accountable for their behavior.... be objective about that for a second.
I think you're being over-responsible regarding the above statement. Way too over-responsible.
We are talking about a PD here, not someone with autism (maybe).
On that note, if a 30 yr old autistic male walks up and smacks a woman on the ass... if they aren't held accountable they won't even have the chance of learning that it is inappropriate.
Similarly, if PDs aren't held accountable for their actions, they also won't ever learn (they still may never change even if they do learn).
But at the end of the day, if they aren't held accountable they'll only have more free reign to act inappropriately.
Hi commongoal123,
I do tend to over analyze things and certainly in the case of PDs, I should just trust my gut more. Having said that, I do appreciate your taking the time and effort to tell me that you believe they are responsible and should be held accountable. A friend told me about an article on Bipolar Disorder, in which the author, who was Bipolar, said that people who are Bipolar are responsible for their actions. Apparently the month after the article appeared, the magazine printed replies in which other people with Bipolar Disorder said that they are responsible for their actions, and that not to hold them responsible was to treat them as if they WEREtheir disorder rather than as humans with free will.
I've struggled with this as well. I often feel guilty for getting angry at my unBPDm for things she did when I was a kid, and for things she still does. I know her childhood was often horrific, and I understand that lack of impulse control is part of the disorder.
BUT...I also remind myself that her issues made my childhood often horrific. And that her lack of impulse control did a lot of damage that I'm still dealing with. That makes it easier for me to stop feeling guilty.
Hi artfox,
I know what you mean. I am sure that my mother's childhood must have been horrible in many ways, and I do feel compassion for her, but her treatment of me created lifelong issues--including the high tolerance I have for bad behavior from friends.
I think that I have had very high tolerance for others, while not realizing the I needed to think a little more about myself and a little less about them.
This post has really gotten me to think about what it means to be accountable for one's actions. Does it mean that if someone is not accountable for their actions that we must forgive them? Or consequently, does this mean that if someone is accountable for their actions that they should not be forgiven? Or, does this have anything to do with forgiveness? One example comes to mind: say I go up to a dog who has a bone and I try to take the bone away from him or her, there's a good chance that the dog will try to bite me. I don't think that holding the dog accountable for their actions has much to do with my learning process. I accept the fact that this is a dogs nature. And I should learn in the future not to do this. So said the frog to the scorpion. I believe that my father (who has passed) was an UNPD. The particular way that his disease played out my life is that he left my mother, brother and I for a much younger woman and started a new family with GC children. He never looked back. While it is difficult for me to fathom how a parent could just leave behind children, and learning about PDAs it's seeming like this type of behavior is very much in their nature. I believe that he was so far in the NPD spectrum that he could not really have cared about or understood the heartache that he caused because I believe that this type of brain wiring ( for whatever NPD is) just does not lend itself to actually caring about other people. I have not forgiven him. If he were alive, I'm thinking that I would go NC with him as I just don't see that he and I had very much in common once the "parent" connection was shown for what it truly was - nothing. Was he accountable for his actions? Was he a diseased human being who didn't know what he was doing? I'm always trying to understand what forgiveness means. I read something interesting about this. It was a story about a man who hired a friend/acquaintance to do some work for him. The friend did not have a very good reputation for being reliable. Well, the friend did not do the work as was asked and paid for. The man said that he forgave his friend/acquaintance for his actions. Another person asked the man then, "so since you have forgiven him then you will be hiring him to do some more work for you?" The man said no and that forgiveness does not mean that you allow a person to hurt you again. The man said that he would not be doing his friend or himself any favors by allowing the same situation to occur again. So, this reminds me of my own struggle with forgiveness and holding people accountable for their actions. Question: how much do I let them in my life knowing their nature?
Invisible, when deciding whether to let someone back into your life, I suggest you focus on your own comfort level. Expect that whatever behavior the person engaged in before will be engaged in again. How will you feel when that happens? If you can say now, "I will feel bad when that person engages in that behavior again," I suggest that you be accountable to and responsible for yourself now and decide now NOT to let the person back in your life.
QuoteI believe that my father (who has passed) was an UNPD. The particular way that his disease played out my life is that he left my mother, brother and I for a much younger woman and started a new family with GC children. He never looked back. While it is difficult for me to fathom how a parent could just leave behind children, and learning about PDAs it's seeming like this type of behavior is very much in their nature.
Did your father have an ideal as to what his family should look like and be like?
Hi Indivisible,
I'm sorry that your NPD father abandoned you and your family. My father passed a few years ago, and I struggle with some of the issues you raise.
One thing to consider is, if your father were alive, would he be struggling about how he treated you? From what you say, I think not. And I know for certain that my father would not. When you think about it, WE are the ones burdened with how to react to their bad behavior. And this is a good example of what it's like to deal with an NPD.
Based upon all of my dealings with NPDs, I think it's best to keep them as far out of your life as possible.
Regarding forgiveness, I think it's a totally personal matter.
Quote from: Indivisible on March 13, 2019, 07:14:53 PM
This post has really gotten me to think about what it means to be accountable for one's actions. Does it mean that if someone is not accountable for their actions that we must forgive them? Or consequently, does this mean that if someone is accountable for their actions that they should not be forgiven? Or, does this have anything to do with forgiveness?
I think you are on to something, and totally agree.
I leave the metaphysics and philosophy to those well-equipped for such matters. I suspect this: if we consistently behave in ways that protect us from those who predictably cause us pain, we will be happier and healthier, and few of us would return here to inquire about any metaphysical concepts of accountability and forgiveness.
Some people may genuinely be concerned about moral culpability and such, but I stand by my more practical position: if a car is careening towards you on the sidewalk, it doesn't matter whether the driver is a terrorist, or an old man having a medical emergency. The state of mind of the driver is absolutely irrelevant to your decision. That car is about to predictably hurt you and you must take action to preserve yourself.
I encourage everyone to make sure they are taking that kind of action, doing so with firm resolve and a light heart, before wading into murky questions of responsibility, accountability, culpability, and all such matters. I suspect that far too often those latter questions prevent us from action on the former immediate need.
Starboard Song, hero member and hero post. Thank you! You expressed this so clearly and helpfully.
I agree with Starboard Song that you have to get out of the way of the careening car but sometimes, even when the PD is dead, you are left wondering about what caused them to behave as they did. In fact, sometimes when the relationship is over you think about this even more, because you are no longer dealing with the person.
But I agree that trying to figure out whether the person is responsible for their actions while you're the brunt of their bad behavior could delay taking action to just get out of their way.
Thank you, countrygirl, for reminding us that it is only natural to ponder the questions that began this thread.
How did we get here? What part did I play? How could it have gone better? Are they really guilty of something, or are they a sort of victim, too, since they have a "condition"?
Those are all natural inquiries, and I should clarify that I don't demean people for exploring them. Long-term health may very well require us to find a path towards forgiveness, or sympathy, or understanding. I am very sad for my MIL: she is hurting more than we are, and her internal pain leads to her external volatility. I wish her peace.
I just encourage people to entirely separate these from practical questions of survival and health now, based on predictable outcomes of the choices we make.
Thank you for that very clear post, Starboard Song!
When I think about some of the most horrific and brutal stories stories I've see on TV, how could knowing the "why" ever be enough for me to think "Oh, OK, I see why s/he committed that heinous act...it all makes sense now"?
And while my Narents did not commit heinous acts upon me, I can't see how any explanation as to "why" they treated me the way they did would ever be satisfying...at least not to my rational mind.
You're right. The "why" simply does not matter, and would likely not be completely understood if known. This may be the key I needed to just let it go.
Thank you!
~Jade
In my upbringing I was taught/conditioned to always put aside my feelings or my best interests for others. Emotions were not accepted in my household; anger, joy, happiness, sadness, frustration – showing these would lead to my mother trying to control me. So I learned to keep my feelings inside and deny them. I was told that I was selfish and defective. So, with this conditioning my brain just naturally went to a place of philosophical contemplation when it came to my feelings. If i would feel angry or hurt I had to really think through if I had a right to feel angry or if I was not adequately thinking of others or putting their needs ahead of my own. We all have our own struggles. I have come across a lot of information that confirms that I'm not completely alone in feeling alienated from my feelings. I think it was Winston Churchill who said if you find yourself in hell keep going. To me this means that the way to the other side is to go through things. So, I can't really just turn off this philosophical side of my brain, unfortunately. It's been how I've dealt with things my whole life. Even now, my instinct is to go back to that place where I try to think things through rather than to just feel. I'm a work in progress. I feel it's important to honor this process in myself, as I am learning. Learning about the PDAs of my parents is new to me. This information just makes a whole Lotta sense to me. Things feel like they finally make sense. But I'm not really in a place where I can just let things go or forget about them. I completely agree that I want to be forward-looking – I'm on this boat labeled "heal", and I'm on a journey now in this direction. I feel a freedom being on this journey that I've never felt before. Part of this journey, for me, is trying to understand the people who have done me harm. Not because I wish them any harm in anyway, but because I want to see the truth. I have lived with the lies my whole entire life that there was something defective with me and that's the reason my father left. But the real reason that he left my family behind has to do with him - not me. I don't wish to look behind at my life because I have scores to settle or because I want anybody else to suffer; I look behind to understand so that my future might be free of these chains. I look behind as well as forward so that I might be able to recognize and avoid those who come across my path who may have the same problems as the people in my past. It's totally weird that this focus has led me to begin to repair my inner child and to enjoy just the small fun things that life has to offer. I haven't enjoyed these things this way in such a long time. My father's passed, so I guess I have the ultimate NC; but, to be completely honest with all of you if he were alive I don't know how I would behave towards him knowing what I now know. I think my brain would naturally and instinctively wonder if he was accountable for his actions because he had a disease called NPD? And I think I would instinctively try to consider his position more than my own. That might not be the healthiest of reactions, but I'm being honest about my thoughts and process. Trust me when I say that I am striving to focus on my own comfort level. Goodness, even distinguishing my own comfort level is a supreme effort. Never having been taught this it is something that I am learning to do. It doesn't come easily for me. I chose Indivisible because I wish to be strong and not divided from myself any longer. I am not Invisible anymore or ever again.
Quote from: Indivisible on March 15, 2019, 01:44:21 AM
Trust me when I say that I am striving to focus on my own comfort level. Goodness, even distinguishing my own comfort level is a supreme effort. Never having been taught this it is something that I am learning to do. It doesn't come easily for me. I chose Indivisible because I wish to be strong and not divided from myself any longer. I am not Invisible anymore or ever again.
I learn so much any time someone shares such stories. I was raised by two of the finest people to ever walk the earth, and it makes it hard to really get the depths of damage so many of us here (and my own DW) are dealing with.
I love the username Indivisible, and I think the journey and thought processes you've described are highly honorable. Keep going!
I agree with indivisible on Lot of that thread. I think its who WE are, questioning ourselves constantly in ways people with a more "normal" upbringing would not even think anmbout most of the time. I believe it is our brainwashing, and our attempt to overcome being taught that the world is flat and gray, when we can see with our own eyes that it is round and full of color. We still dont believe we can trust what we actually see, that it HAS to be incorrect, yet there it is in full, raw, display.
I struggle with this and its effects. Adults have enormous power over childrens' developing minds. It is astonishing what has happened to me, that i comprehend it now and want ro change it, and yet i struggle with doubt .
I love that - the world is round and full of color. When my uNPDF left our family I was a pre-teen. Right after he left my mother, brother, and I moved. And after this, I started acting out (go figure - a traumatized teenager acting out?!). Both my parents took the stance that I was making poor choices and it was my fault. My mother took the stance of poor good mother has such a difficult daughter. Looking back it breaks my heart that very few saw a hurting traumatized kid who really needed some good ole TLC and support. So, for many years I swallowed hook, line, and sinker that my behavior was due to my decisions and defectiveness. I was told that things were flat and grey and I believed it. Now I can see the colors. In my mind I've created new parents. It's incredible - they are so kind and supportive - and the are teaching me to accept myself. Honestly, I didn't know such a thing was possible.