Dad, brother, and wills

[p123]

Some of you will know the hassles I have with my Dad. My brother too is the biggest FM in the world - and I've been NC with him for a few months now.
However, a few things he said before this got me thinking.....

Dad has money in savings. He also part-owns (its sort shared ownership thing with housing association - he owns 50% they own 50% and he pays rent on this) a flat/apartment. Hes probably got £40K in the bank and his share of the flat is probably around £80K.

Dad has always said his will is split 50/50. Dad is never one to take advice but I think hes put both of us down as executors also.

Something brother said before we went NC got me thinking. Hes not owned a house for years, got into financial trouble and has rented places fro years. He piped up one day "when Dad is gone I'm sorted I'll have this flat". He knows hes down for half only.

Thinking about the sums here. It would cost him £40K to buy my share, yet he'd only have £20K cash. He doesn't have any more and there is no way he'd get a mortgage.  I dunno, based on what hes done in the past, I could see him moving himself in as soon as Dad is gone and then saying "ah I'll pay you back the money I owe". Of course, I'd never get it off him. I can then see me being cast as the bad one if I moaned because I know he'd try to paint me as "the monyegrabber".

All feels a bit wrong when Dad is still with us - sort of like vultures. And OK I don't really want the money BUT I'd be really off if my brother forced the situation into having something hes not entitled to.

Ultimately, what could be done? Part of me is thinking - do nothing. If he wants to play that game then I'd just wipe my hands of it all.

[GettingOOTF]

If it were me I'd walk away and let him have it. It's such a small sum of money that it wouldn't be worth the hassle to me.

I know I'm in the minority but it always shocks me when people talk about their parents money as if it will be theirs one day. I guess I've always supported myself and my family doesn't have much so I never expected anything. I'm a lot more successful than my siblings (probably because I've never expected anything from anyone so I've worked harder)  and as far as I'm concerned they are welcome to what ever is there. It will change their lives more than mine.

My focus right now is on my own healing, I don't get bogged down on hypothetical future issues with siblings. I used to play out these scenarios in my mind a lot, it only kept me stuck. How is it helping you?

[p123]

You have a good point.....

Its not a massive amount and it would make zero difference to me if it was ZERO.  For years I've been trying to get Dad to spend his money whilst brother has been talking out of it which I think is wrong.

Its just the thought that my brother would get all this when he doesn't even have a claim to it. His ploy paying off.

We'll see what happens.

[nanotech]

I can see both sides so well. Did you ever see that TV programme on tv a few years ago.
' You can't take it with you.'
Think it was BBC.
A wills expert went round to families, looked at planned inheritances, and pointed out where unfairness was occurring.
It was so interesting.
He really helped one young woman who was being fobbed off with very little inheritance. Her much older brothers, when spoken to very reasonably by the expert, backed down. The younger sister hadn't wanted to 'seem greedy' and the brothers had played upon that, convincing her to accept a meagre amount compared to them.
That said, it's a headache I don't want to have! It's not going to be fun!
Maybe you could have a word with your solicitor, and get some general advice?

[p123]

I can see both sides so well. Did you ever see that TV programme on tv a few years ago.
' You can't take it with you.'
Think it was BBC.
A wills expert went round to families, looked at planned inheritances, and pointed out where unfairness was occurring.
It was so interesting.
He really helped one young woman who was being fobbed off with very little inheritance. Her much older brothers, when spoken to very reasonably by the expert, backed down. The younger sister hadn't wanted to 'seem greedy' and the brothers had played upon that, convincing her to accept a meagre amount compared to them.
That said, it's a headache I don't want to have! It's not going to be fun!
Maybe you could have a word with your solicitor, and get some general advice?

Ha ha - keep telling him hes going to win the prize for richest man in the graveyard! I must say this every week!

EXACTLY - any mention of things like that and you're tarred as greedy or a vulture....
I can see trouble ahead!

Yes was tempted to get legal advice. Wife says as soon as he goes, zoom over and change the locks lol!

[nanotech]

It's all a matter of fairness. It's not whether someone thinks they deserve it, it's your right in law. 
This guy in that series( Can't Take It With You) pointed out that in this country, it's the law that money and property are bequeathed to children equally.
Relationships and favouritism and perceived 'deservingness' have no bearing whatsoever.

Sometimes siblings gaslight other siblings to convince them that they do.

Of course, the parent can write in their will that they are bequeathing  unequally, and they can disinherit a child. I believe they  have to specifically and actively do this by naming the child who will be disinherited. I think that they can't just do this by omitting their name from the will.  A will like that is highly contestable.
Both types are actually contestable, as if someone is disinherited they can argue that the parent was influenced by the sibling when ill or mentally frail.
Unless your dad actually declares in the will  when of sound mind that he's leaving the flat to your brother only, brother can't just  move in and take it.
I think the whole probate thing may prevent that occurring?
I'm not sure if you can change locks and suchlike?
Is anyone POA? Are you both will executors?

I Look at any inheritance I may get in the future, as a sort of compensation payout. But even if I didn't, the entitlement is there, whether or not children have visited daily, or  been non contact for years or whatever the relationship.
How rich each sibling also has no bearing.
Plus it isn't just for us, we can pass it on to our families.

[p123]

It's all a matter of fairness. It's not whether someone thinks they deserve it, it's your right in law. 
This guy in that series( Can't Take It With You) pointed out that in this country, it's the law that money and property are bequeathed to children equally.
Relationships and favouritism and perceived 'deservingness' have no bearing whatsoever.

Sometimes siblings gaslight other siblings to convince them that they do.

Of course, the parent can write in their will that they are bequeathing  unequally, and they can disinherit a child. I believe they  have to specifically and actively do this by naming the child who will be disinherited. I think that they can't just do this by omitting their name from the will.  A will like that is highly contestable.
Both types are actually contestable, as if someone is disinherited they can argue that the parent was influenced by the sibling when ill or mentally frail.
Unless your dad actually declares in the will  when of sound mind that he's leaving the flat to your brother only, brother can't just  move in and take it.
I think the whole probate thing may prevent that occurring?
I'm not sure if you can change locks and suchlike?
Is anyone POA? Are you both will executors?

I Look at any inheritance I may get in the future, as a sort of compensation payout. But even if I didn't, the entitlement is there, whether or not children have visited daily, or  been non contact for years or whatever the relationship.
How rich each sibling also has no bearing.
Plus it isn't just for us, we can pass it on to our families.

If I had to guess Dad would have put us both down as co-executors.....
Brother is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He won't see it that way.

Whether hes right or not if he does this then I'm hoping to avoid a massive legal battle getting him out.

[NumbLotus]

Maybe you guys will just sell the share in the flat. He gets his half of the sale, you get yours. Done. He can do whatever he wants with the money.

If he wants the flat, he has to buy you out. He can't? Okay, let's sell it. Well, no, we can't play owsies. He can get the money via a mortgage or something and buy you out, period. No? Then selling is the only option. Sorry, can't be helped. Period.

[p123]

Maybe you guys will just sell the share in the flat. He gets his half of the sale, you get yours. Done. He can do whatever he wants with the money.

If he wants the flat, he has to buy you out. He can't? Okay, let's sell it. Well, no, we can't play owsies. He can get the money via a mortgage or something and buy you out, period. No? Then selling is the only option. Sorry, can't be helped. Period.

Of course thats the correct course of action for a decent person.....

Mortgage/borrowing won't be an option - hes had many run ins in the past with financial organisations. i.e. he doesn't pay, they chase hi, its "so unfair" because "hes got to eat and he can't afford what they want to charge him". Note the lack of sympathy from me!

Like I said, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed he will not be able to work out that he will need to buy me out. This would need to be explained to him in simple language.

Even if he did understood he would ASSUME that OK he'd just owe me the money and  I'd get it. Never going to happen.

When I was younger, had my first house, he got divorced and didn't pay for his car loan. Dad asked me to go with him to meeting with finance company. Stupidly, I went. They pretty much wanted £200 or something NOW or they'd repossess the car. Stupidly, I paid it and he'd pay me back. I wasn;t loaded at the time and it was a fair bit of money for me. He never paid it back.

I remember months later seeing him in the pub. Drinking like there was no tomorrow. I spoke to him and his excuse was "Don't worry about it I'll pay you back - Aren't I allowed one drink after I've been working all day?". It was more than one drink. And my reply was "not while you owe me money and have never paid any back".

In the end, Dad paid me the Golden Childs debt back. Nice eh?

[NumbLotus]

Since you are legally in the clear - he can't cheat you unless you agree to go along with an empty promise - I take it that what you are dreading is being called selfish and whatever else because you didn't enable his selfish scheme.

I can relate because it's hard to have people think terribly about us and blame us unfairly and be angry at us. There's this creeping doubt - you know you did fine but then you search in your head, "was I really selfish? I mean, I could have gone along with it. He IS in a tough spot. Blablabla."

But, no. And fortunately, you have that £200 as a beautiful example. "I loaned you £200 and you never, ever paid me back. Dad eventually had to cover for you. I'm not stupid. Oh, you think *I'm* selfish because I'm not about to let you cheat me? Lol. Get mad at me all you want, we both know what the deal is. You blame everyone but yourself for your mistakes and let other people pay for them."

Don't forget that £200. It's a crystal clear reason why you're not going to roll over for him. Period.

[p123]

Since you are legally in the clear - he can't cheat you unless you agree to go along with an empty promise - I take it that what you are dreading is being called selfish and whatever else because you didn't enable his selfish scheme.

I can relate because it's hard to have people think terribly about us and blame us unfairly and be angry at us. There's this creeping doubt - you know you did fine but then you search in your head, "was I really selfish? I mean, I could have gone along with it. He IS in a tough spot. Blablabla."

But, no. And fortunately, you have that £200 as a beautiful example. "I loaned you £200 and you never, ever paid me back. Dad eventually had to cover for you. I'm not stupid. Oh, you think *I'm* selfish because I'm not about to let you cheat me? Lol. Get mad at me all you want, we both know what the deal is. You blame everyone but yourself for your mistakes and let other people pay for them."

Don't forget that £200. It's a crystal clear reason why you're not going to roll over for him. Period.

But he has a key and I have a key. If Dad passes he will move himself in like a shot whether its legal or not. I just know it. Then I'll be the "bad" one who has to take legal proceedings to get him out.

Hes a past master at "facebook" shaming. Every few months you get a slanderous quote about one or the other of his exes who wont let him see the kids and shes a total XXXX. Then you get all his friends "oh its so unfair and she is". Of course, its not the truth.

Pretty sure I'll be next if this ever happens. I'll be the horrible money grabbing brother whos taking him to court to get him evicted when hes got nowhere to live and its SO UNFAIR.

[NumbLotus]

He's the terrible money grabbing brother.

I dunno, maybe have a plan to change the locks immediately. He might beat you but you might get there first.

In the US we have small claims court for claims up to I think $10k. Not sure if you have anything similar. The cost of suing in small claims is limited, and a lawyer is not required. Obviously you'd need all evidence to show your case.

There aren't any conflict-free options.

[p123]

He's the terrible money grabbing brother.

I dunno, maybe have a plan to change the locks immediately. He might beat you but you might get there first.

In the US we have small claims court for claims up to I think $10k. Not sure if you have anything similar. The cost of suing in small claims is limited, and a lawyer is not required. Obviously you'd need all evidence to show your case.

There aren't any conflict-free options.

Yeh exactly. I can see him doing that.

Yes we have small-claims court. Not sure if getting someone evicted from a property comes under that.

Having watched TV programmes about landlords and getting people out when they don't pay the rent I've seen its a bit of a nightmare in the UK. Takes months and costs a lot of money.

[NumbLotus]

Ob, I was thinking as an alternative to eviction. As in, fine, keep the flat, you owe me the balance. Not saying you should do that, just brainstorming.

[p123]

Ob, I was thinking as an alternative to eviction. As in, fine, keep the flat, you owe me the balance. Not saying you should do that, just brainstorming.

See what you mean..... An idea. Trouble is hes got no money so I guess even if I sued him in court he just wouldn't pay..... (He did this with HMRC - the tax people - for years and almost ended up in prison because he just threw the demands in the bin)

People do that in the UK, they get a thing called a CCJ (county court judgement) which is bad to have on your credit record. Brother won't care hes probably got a few anyway! Trouble is even with  a CCJ you then have to pursue this i.e. get debt collectors in etc. Trouble is people know this and if they haven't got anything theres nothing to take if you know what I mean.

Got to admit that might be fun though.... ;-)

[NumbLotus]

Ah, yeah, then eviction and sale is the only way to go.

I don't understand how some people can be okay with cheating others. I mean, yes, entitlement, but I just can't understand feeling like cheati g someone is a better choice than taking responsibility for myself. Taking responsibility for myself not only helps me look in the mirror, but my life is more stable, I can count on myself, I have a place to live, relationships that endure, etc.

[p123]

Ah, yeah, then eviction and sale is the only way to go.

I don't understand how some people can be okay with cheating others. I mean, yes, entitlement, but I just can't understand feeling like cheati g someone is a better choice than taking responsibility for myself. Taking responsibility for myself not only helps me look in the mirror, but my life is more stable, I can count on myself, I have a place to live, relationships that endure, etc.

Thing is brothers life is all "woe is me, life is so unfair and everyone has got it in for me". Ranging from his ex-partners, hmrc tax people etc etc. He won't see it as cheating. He will see it as perfectly acceptable and it'll be "woe is me my big bad brother wont let me pay the money back and is taking me to court".

He lives in a different world honestly where its all about him and how unfair things are. Bit like Dad!

[NumbLotus]

You're already the Big Bad Brother in his eyes.

Do what you gotta do.

[nanotech]

You're already the Big Bad Brother in his eyes.

Do what you gotta do.

What numblotus said😉

[M0009803]

Some of you will know the hassles I have with my Dad. My brother too is the biggest FM in the world - and I've been NC with him for a few months now.
However, a few things he said before this got me thinking.....

Dad has money in savings. He also part-owns (its sort shared ownership thing with housing association - he owns 50% they own 50% and he pays rent on this) a flat/apartment. Hes probably got £40K in the bank and his share of the flat is probably around £80K.

Dad has always said his will is split 50/50. Dad is never one to take advice but I think hes put both of us down as executors also.

Something brother said before we went NC got me thinking. Hes not owned a house for years, got into financial trouble and has rented places fro years. He piped up one day "when Dad is gone I'm sorted I'll have this flat". He knows hes down for half only.

Thinking about the sums here. It would cost him £40K to buy my share, yet he'd only have £20K cash. He doesn't have any more and there is no way he'd get a mortgage.  I dunno, based on what hes done in the past, I could see him moving himself in as soon as Dad is gone and then saying "ah I'll pay you back the money I owe". Of course, I'd never get it off him. I can then see me being cast as the bad one if I moaned because I know he'd try to paint me as "the monyegrabber".

All feels a bit wrong when Dad is still with us - sort of like vultures. And OK I don't really want the money BUT I'd be really off if my brother forced the situation into having something hes not entitled to.

Ultimately, what could be done? Part of me is thinking - do nothing. If he wants to play that game then I'd just wipe my hands of it all.

In the UK, inheriting shared ownership property would depend on the contract.

Usually, upon death the local authority has the option to buy your deceased fathers share, thus his estate would get the money.  Your brother would not inherit the property under such a scheme, just the money.