Calling out the behaviour - yes or no ?

[Sheppane]

I'm in a dilemma. Like others here,  dysfunctional FOO background slowly coming out of fog x yrs. I was a " fixer" , always rushing in to save the situation. Grew up absorbing everyone's feelings,  anticipating others needs, minimising mine. I would be triggered for days on end without even noticing, as my body literally has to scream at me.

Thanks to the work I've done over the years , I now am much more in touch with my body sending me alarm bells,  my right to personal boundaries  and letting go of FOG.

My question is this- after the most recent episode with FOO my T is suggesting I need to " call out" their behaviour more. Not in anger, or resentment, but as an authentic way of communicating. In other words not just saying nothing and " letting it go".

There was a family occasion recently where we were invited to attend and didn't. We explained why we were unable to go - which was reasonable - but it came with pushback, as expected. I let that go, said we were sorry to miss but wished them a nice time.

Usually we would be sent lots of photos from FOO if a significant event we can't attend or if they are on vacation. Not this time. Nothing. Silence. I saw it , correctly I think,  as punishment. I ignored it, telling myself I am not responsible for how others react to my boundaries,  what they choose to withhold from me as  punitive way of cutting me out. It really hurts,  and it's nasty, imv.

So I did nothing. Here's the confusion. T says I am being disingenuous/ inauthentic. I thought she would be cheering me on for setting a boundary knowing the pushback I'd likely get! That I said I was sorry to miss but when I received no photos/ pictures or updates on the day I should have called it out. That the authentic thing to do would have been to send a message hey folks why haven't you sent me a picture, or the like. ( I'm paraphrasing). I think her point was that if I was genuine sorry to miss I would also have followed up on why I heard nothing further. In other words she says that my silence on the matter is part of the game. What do you think ?

What I did though was make a choice. I decided that how they behave is outside of my control, that I make peace with that and move forward. I did think I could call it out at time but knew where that would go so I didn't. Maybe I'm wrong? Who knows. Maybe if I had the whole family system could have breathed a bit. Maybe it would have been more genuine, healthy , authentic?

My gut tells me calling out these sorts of dynamics pokes the bear and leaves me very vulnerable to further FOG. My T I think feels that that sort of silence is self serving and disingenuous.  But I do also wants me to be a person of integrity, not afraid to speak my truth if it's needed, I  am willing to do it , if its the right thing even if hard. I have some experience in 12 step recovery too and I am willing to keep my side " clean" . But on this one I just don't know if she is right ,or if I am handing over too much power and not trusting myself, now in a pit of confusion and FOG.

Uuuuggh. I'm spinning,  in a loop I can't get out of.

Thoughts ??

Where is the line between authentic communication , speaking truth, discernment,  and keeping oneself safe?

[Hilltop]

This is really interesting and I look forward to what others think.  I think there is a sliding scale when it comes to PD families and there is a lot of grey area in there which is why you need to figure out how to approach your own family.  In some families there is baiting, and if the behaviour is called out then that reaction is used for further abuse.  In this case I am not sure calling out the behaviour is good.

In your case I can see what your therapist is saying.  You genuinely couldn't attend an invite, there was push back and I think your response was great.  It was non reactive.  However then there is silence which you are seeing as a game and most likely it is punishment on their end however the other side of this is, do you want to know how it went.  You are expecting them to reach out and send pictures but at the end of the day you can't control them.  So I would think about if you want to know how the day went and if there are pictures.  If the answer is yes I don't think there is anything wrong with sending a message of "Hey how did xyz day go, are there any pictures, I'd love to see them".  I don't think this is playing any games, I think it is being authentic.

I think calling out the behaviour in a reactive way may not work.  If you sent a message of "hey why are you ignoring me, you usually send pictures, I'm upset over this" or even "why haven't you folks sent a picture yet",  I think this sort of calling out is probably going to add to the problem, but reaching out because you genuinely want to know how it went, what's wrong with that.  If you think about "hey why haven't you sent a picture yet" or 'why haven't I heard anything", it's kind of highlighting the silent treatment and acknowledging it and sort of blaming them and I think this could lead to them using this to then scapegoat you or smear you.  Whereas being authentic to me would be you simply stating the fact that you would love to see the photo's and hear the update.

Of course if they still don't respond then it gets trickier because whether you engage to call out the silent treatment or not, hmmm, I'm not sure about that. Again that comes down to your FOO and where they sit on that grey scale.  Perhaps that's where your therapist could help with dialogue etc.

I know with my FOO they use any reaction to smear me or mock me however I do want to stand up for myself.  I just want to do it in a way that isn't reactive to the family dysfunction.  Getting into a conversation about whether they are doing the silent treatment IMO could go badly because it then becomes a 'no we aren't doing that, you were always so sensitive' or 'you were always so difficult'.  At least that is how it's gone in my family.  So I do think there is value in being authentic however I also don't think we need to go into those areas which we know are pits, where what we say, no matter how we say it may be used for further abuse.

If they didn't respond to your request for an update or photo's perhaps you could simply wait a week and then send a quick message of 'It seems you're really busy but hopefully we can catch up when you are free and I can hear how the day went'.  This puts it back on them, that you simply think they are busy and you will catch up later.  I don't know if your therapist would find this authentic because no you are not bringing up the subject that they appear to be giving you the silent treatment but again, would that conversation of bringing that up, get you anywhere.  Have you had those conversations previously?  If you have how did they go?  Were you listened to or did it go badly?".  In some respects yes if we go along with the silent treatment when we actually want communication I believe we are playing the game.  You can reach out and if they choose to continue the silent treatment, hey you just leave that with them.  If they can't handle their emotions and can't deal with the boundary you put in place, that's on them, you reach out like you want to but then you let them know when they are less busy you can catch up.  You don't need to take that silent treatment personally, it's not about you, it's about them. 

[serenitycalm]

Sheppane, it sounds like your therapist is assuming that you were applying "silent treatment". But you were not. Check through the Toolbox here on site for the difference between silent treatment and no contact/medium chill/gray rock.

I personally don't think it is our job to try to educate the dysfunctional family system. We don't need to do anything. We get to take good care of ourselves first, which definitely can include letting things go and walking away.

For myself, I can't get wrapped up in trying to perform "authenticity" a certain way.

I never want to get between a person and a therapist, so take this all with a large grain of salt. Personally, I think you did fine.

[Sheppane]

Thank you Hilltop. That's so helpful. Yes I think it would have been playing games for me to ask for pictures when infact I was triggered and angry and hurt I guess at watching the way it was playing out. So I guess not asking for them was authentic as otherwise I would have been pretending I wanted to see them when infact by that point I was feeling angry and thinking - just let this go. But my T really disagrees with that point.

I really like the way you put it about shades of gray.

Calling it out in a reactive way is what my T was suggesting as in " hey what's going on why is no one sending me pictures ". I suppose it depends how authentic or reactive that seems to a person. My T thinks that is very authentic and genuinely communicating as in I am now flushing out how they have chosen to behave. And if that causes further fury...respond to that authentically too. I have to say I am wary of doing anything like that because it sounds like a response to the ( absent ) bait.  I figured it was their decision, not mine, to withhold. Plus I'm not sure I can give so much of my thinking time and life energy to this all the time. That kind of exchange has me recovering from it for days, sometimes weeks.

I'm also on the fence with you about calling out the ST. In my FOO in the past anything like that causes huge responses. But it's interesting that point about how going along with the ST is playing the game too.

In the past what I have done has been either just made a decision to let it go and make contact for one reason or another, not making reference to it. My T believes that is inauthentic  - probably true- because the reality is the behaviour hurts me but I say nothing about it and carry on as normal.

I find it all very confusing 😕

[IsleOfSong]

It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely. So I think you can let yourself off the hook for that.

Having said that, if you would like to see photos of the event you missed, saying something like "I hope the event went well, were there any photos?" is reasonable. Just keep your expectations low that you'll get a reasonable response.

[Sheppane]

We get to take good care of ourselves first, which definitely can include letting things go and walking away.

For myself, I can't get wrapped up in trying to perform "authenticity" a certain way.

I think that was what I was thinking - it's ok to take care of myself First , right? Even if that means walking away sometimes. Sometimes hanging on and communicating more authentically/ honestly just puts us in harms way I think. That's not to say there is no value in authentic communication of itself,  just that in some families it stirs the pot and throws kerosene on the fire and we could end up being further harmed despite our best intentions to be " authentic ".  Authentic...at all costs ? Sometimes silence might actually be better ...for everyone ?
it's nice to think it would be possible to be authentic all of the time but yeah I don't know .

[Sheppane]

It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely.
[/quote

You put it really well there isle of song. Maybe what I'm getting at now is ..
authenticity and integrity is really important and valuable in a relationship. However , sometimes it comes at a cost ie further FOG and punishment . So it's ok to decide here's a moment I will speak my truth authentically...or ....here's a moment I choose to just observe what happened and let it pass, without stepping into it. At the one end is compliance,  at the other end is calling it out. Maybe neither is " right" or " wrong " all of the time as there may be lots of other reasons on a particular day where a person doesn't have the energy to take on that big fight , right?
I know there is nearly or always our part to look at to in terms of the things we do to co create the dynamic- but it's also not always 50/50, in my view anyway.

[IsleOfSong]

authenticity and integrity is really important and valuable in a relationship. However , sometimes it comes at a cost ie further FOG and punishment . So it's ok to decide here's a moment I will speak my truth authentically...or ....here's a moment I choose to just observe what happened and let it pass, without stepping into it. At the one end is compliance,  at the other end is calling it out. Maybe neither is " right" or " wrong " all of the time as there may be lots of other reasons on a particular day where a person doesn't have the energy to take on that big fight , right?
I know there is nearly or always our part to look at to in terms of the things we do to co create the dynamic- but it's also not always 50/50, in my view anyway.

I'd say you can think of it this way: In situations like this, your awareness IS your authenticity.

And for the record, there is no exactly "right" way to handle anything. So do your best, stay aware, and try not to get tripped up by the bad behavior of others. And don't let them get you to beat yourself up over any of this stuff!

[Hilltop]

Hey Sheppane, I think going along with the silent treatment as playing the game would be if you wanted to reach out and find out how the event went but thought to yourself, I won't contact them because they are ignoring me so I'll ignore them too.  However you aren't doing that. You said your initial reaction was that you were triggered and hurt and don't want to reach out because you want to protect yourself and give yourself space from that hurtful behaviour.  I would believe this is being authentic to yourself.  I mean your therapist is just using fancy words but to me being authentic is doing something which you believe in, which corresponds with your values, which is good and right for you.  As you say it takes days or weeks to recover and so you are protecting yourself from that.  In this case you are not engaging in the silent treatment but doing self care.

I get that your therapist wants you to communicate and I suppose I find it interesting because if you are the scapegoat, most of us have had those conversations.  I have brought things up without emotion and of course there is a smear campaign or gaslighting and it doesn't really help.  I mean you can shut things down to a certain extent but to me, constantly calling out their drama is just keeping that drama continuing. I don't know if you have seen the drama triangle but it's interesting how we get caught up in the roles.  Unless the PD gets help, they are unlikely to change, they will continue that behaviour, so calling it out and adding to the drama to me just keeps me in that drama.  I guess after a while we learn to simple walk away from most of it because nothing has changed and without them getting help it's unlikely to change.  If we continued to call out everything they did, like you said, that is a lot of time recovering from emotional slights and upsets, not to mention that the relationship would be a continual roller coaster.

I think in normal more functional families then calling out this sort of behaviour yeah it would help but in a dysfunctional family system that thrives on drama, upset, scapegoating, I just feel that constantly calling out the behaviour is staying engaged in the dysfunction.  I guess for me getting to an authentic place is not so much engaging with my family but learning to let go of my expectations and not take it personally and to leave that dysfunction with them, where I can look at it and see it for what it is, know it is about them and not let it affect me emotionally.

As you say in reality the behaviour hurts you, however when you call out the behaviour my concern is that as you say in the past it has led to huge responses.  So I am not sure what that is but if your family then go on to gaslight you or blame you or criticise you for speaking up, then after the initial hurt, there is more hurt.  Then you speak up about that, then they gaslight you, blame you, smear you, then you are hurt about that.  That's why in removing yourself, you are protecting yourself from further hurt.  Yes the initial silent treatment is hurtful and being aware of that, working on your healing so that you expect less from your family and place it back on your family rather than taking it onboard may help. 

And I also don't believe there is a 'right' way or 'wrong' way to handle these situations.  One day as you say you may be feeling ok and want to reach out and on another day you may simply have too much going on and don't want to expend the energy on dealing with it.  Let's face it, it doesn't have to be a fight does it, if you don't want to live fighting the big fight with other people, then you can choose that, isn't that being true to yourself as well.  You do not have to get into the fight or the dynamic or engage.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

You reflected on this event and stated that your gut feelings were that calling out these sorts of dynamics poke the bear and leave you vulnerable. You had awareness of your choices, and based on past experiences, made an informed decision on how to respond so you would remain protected. That seems very authentic to me. I believe nothing is more real than following our instincts. From my own perspective, I think you did just fine.   

[guitarman]

This is a dilemma many of us face.

Maybe the reaction comes in phases. We learn not to feed the narcissistic supply by staying calm and not reacting using medium chill and grey rock. Then the next stage is talking about how we feel and expressing our feelings in a calm way and if goaded to not JADE justify, argue, defend or explain.

We can get so used to letting things go and letting things be that we don't always say how upset we have become. Learning to express our feelings in a calm way can be difficult because we are not used to it. We may not even know what our feelings are as they have been buried for so long because we dare not say anything back.

Fear is a way abusers try to control targets of abuse. They think they have the power and entitlement to do that.

Building your self esteem and expressing your feelings is a way to over come your fear. Little by little it can be done.

You have the right to your feelings and the right to express them in a calm way. They are yours and no one else's.

I know it's not easy but it can be done and is empowering. Take small steps.

[bunnie]

I agree with IsleofSong that there's no right way to handle a lot of these types of interactions w PDs.

In this scenario I'd consider that it's possible that they are hurt you didn't attend. It's possible they think you're not interested in how it all went and/or don't want pics.
I would reach out asking how everything went and for pics (per the usual routine). Then base my response to their behavior from that point.

I must add that I try to give the other party the option to show who they are in any given situation. Then I know I'm not being a mind reader (impossible), but rather I'm basing my response on their actual behavior and words. I feel that is acting authentically and not jumping to conclusions. Even the disordered can have their misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I hope that helps and makes sense.

[LemonLime]

Sheppane, I have a pretty strong point of view on this one.  Hopefully I'm not too blunt, just trying to make a point here.

I believe your T is wrong and that you are right.

You are trying to create good boundaries.  As you say, that entails not being responsible for how others behave.  It also, in my opinion, means not making assumptions.
You don't know that photos were taken at the event.  Yes, they probably were.  We all know that.  But it is best to come from a point of view of not assuming anything.
You don't know for sure why they are now silent.  Yes they are probably punishing you.  We all know that.   But it's best to come from a point of view of not assuming anything.
Stay clean, stay "innocent".  Keep your side of the street clean.  Take things that they say literally.   No assumptions, no reading into anything.

There will be plenty of opportunities to call them out on things that are very clearly wrong.  When they give a left-handed compliment, you can say "oh I'm not sure what you mean by that.  Please explain".     You can call them out on their name-calling or their rages or their broken promises.

But they did not promise to take photos and send them to you.  There is no broken promise.

I would be really surprised if calling them out on anything will change them.  But maybe it's good for you to do in order to be true to yourself.  Please just chose carefully what you call them out on.   It can't be something that is not clearly "abusive".    There are plenty of reasons why a non-PD person might not send photos of an event if they did not promise to do that.  There are plenty of reasons people become silent.    There is a LOT of plausible deniability in this particular situation.

I think the most powerful "call-outs" are done in-the-moment.  In real time.   Not after time has passed. 

You are right.  Your instinct is correct.
You rock!

[JollyJazz]

The thing is, you need different tactics when calling out and asserting boundaries with PD people.

For instance, the standard method of telling someone that they've hurt your feelings works wonderfully with a nice, healthy, normal person.

Early on in my therapy journey,I had tried to tell my mother that she hurt my feelings, she narrowed her eyes and said 'JollyJazz* I don't give a s@#+! about your feelings' (note: I was never allowed to swear but she was).

So yes, we can react well to bad behavior, but in a smart, PD specific way. There are lots of good tips in the toolbox for keeping ourselves safe, like grey rocking, the squeaky wheel technique, minimal contact, etc.
https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-1/

Hope this helps! 

[Sheppane]

Serenitycalm, apologies I missed your reply yesterday when I posted mine!

thank you for the reminder of the difference between "joining in" the ST and taking care of myself and choosing not to engage.

So many helpful and interesting replies here.

I'm thinking as a few of you have pointed out that choosing not to engage is not the same thing - even if it " looks" the same it is the motivation behind it which matters.  I guess asking for pictures of a vacation or whatever event - even if I'm pretty sure they are being deliberately withheld- is fine if I genuinely want to see them - but not so fine if using it as an excuse to reconnect and break the tension, which  is the "game ".

I think what I was feeling was angry and hurt and I wanted not to step into this any further, so I just saw what was happening and chose to let it go. That felt right. So it's really the motivation behind it.

option 1) feel hurt and angry, observe what's happening,  don't step in any further
option 2) feel hurt and angry but also genuinely wish to see pictures of the vacation/ event so put aside my feelings and ask to see them in non reactive way . ( That looks slightly inauthentic to me as if I am triggered and angry in honesty I probably am not going to want to see the pictures )
option 3) observe they haven't been sent - and call it out ( T suggestion) .

As some of you have said   there is not necessarily a right answer here.

Hilltop you said " get that your therapist wants you to communicate and I suppose I find it interesting because if you are the scapegoat, most of us have had those conversations.  I have brought things up without emotion and of course there is a smear campaign or gaslighting and it doesn't really help.  " 

That's my fear really. I don't want to br engaged in a battle all the time. The authenticity might be more about acceptance and letting go, maybe? I used to have a mantra of " I don't have to pick up the gauntlet ".

Guitarman you said "We learn not to feed the narcissistic supply by staying calm and not reacting using medium chill and grey rock. Then the next stage is talking about how we feel and expressing our feelings in a calm way and if goaded to not JADE justify, argue, defend or explain.

We can get so used to letting things go and letting things be that we don't always say how upset we have become. Learning to express our feelings in a calm way can be difficult because we are not used to it. We may not even know what our feelings are as they have been buried for so long because we dare not say anything back.".

That's so true. Maybe that's where I'm at. Better at detaching and believing my own feelings to be valid ( and noticing them rather than burying them ), but not yet knowing how or when to express them in a calm way. And maybe this might be the next stage of work for me ?
My experience with this in the past is that in an already hostile situation , my calmness triggers FOO. I have been told I was " too calm " , as my reactivity has not matched others, and it has invited rage. On one occasion I was jeered and mocked for being calm, so in a way I think that memory has stayed with me and made me fearful of attempting it again. But I like the idea of building the self esteem to overcome that fear. And of course if again and again the same thing happens when I express myself calmly and truthfully , well then I think that's back to not engaging to keep myself safe.

Bunnie this is very helpful too " I must add that I try to give the other party the option to show who they are in any given situation. Then I know I'm not being a mind reader (impossible), but rather I'm basing my response on their actual behavior and words. I feel that is acting authentically and not jumping to conclusions. Even the disordered can have their misunderstandings and hurt feelings."

I find it very tricky when I consider the others feelings hurt - as in the past I overapologised, always felt huge guikt when there was none to be felt so the tiniest bit of considering I might have hurt their feelings I find difficult to navigate.  That old part of me wants yo jump in " fix" and apologise - whether I'm in the wrong or not. And then FOO frequently feel " hurt" because they perceive I never do enough. Even when even I can objectively see that's not true. But it's a slippery slope into self doubt,  people pleasing and guilt for me. So it's very helpful what you said about giving people a chance to show who they are. With PA communication in my FOO that can be difficult to pull out I find. Because no one ever says what they are feeling.

Lemonlime also said similar about not making assumptions . It really does make things much simpler. I set a boundary. And part of that involves not attaching to the outcomes of it or what others think of it - whether they like it of not - and not getting stuck in ruminating about what they "might" be thinking. Its the problem with this more covert sort of communication- ST I guess maybe isn't always ST ( though my gut tells me I'm not imagining it). And yet unless someone comes out and says something outloud how do i possibly know what anyone else is thinking?

I agree calling people out on easily deniable things may just not be smart. As you said maybe I should reserve my calling out for things in the moment that I am certain about. That might be a better place to start. 

My T also suggested I should apologise to FOO for not having suggested an alternative time to meet. Not an apology for setting the boundary but that they might feel hurt that I did not come up with an alternative suggestion. My reasoning for that also was at the time I wanted to keep it simple, explain why we couldn't come and leave it at that. I felt that suggesting alternatives when I didn't even know when they would likely be was just going to overcomplicate things and muddy the waters . I did say we were sorry we could not see them but T feels that wasn't enough. I'm really uncertain about that part too . I thought I had done well setting the boundary and certainly didn't communicate it in anything other than a calm factual way and I wanted a definite end to it rather than a whole other argument about alternative plans and how they would work..
I thought it was OK.

Anyone any thoughts on that?

I think it will take me more time to digest all of this.

Thank you for all your support. 

[moglow]

From my own edge of a similar cliff - I'm working harder at treating others as I'd like to be treated, flip the scenario and consider what might bridge a possible gap.

Me? I'd have asked If they took any pics while at event, ask how things went. Show interest and let them respond accordingly. I'd overlook any snarky comments as not worthy of response. It's always possible they didn't get pictures or at least any good ones, it happens. Some events/venues now ask that people put phones away and enjoy the moment.

I'm rethinking my tendency to assume. It may feel awkward but I'd rather bail off in it than sit back and wonder. How they choose to respond isn't my/your stuff, neither to accept nor fix. Thats on them. AND you don't have to apologize for being unavailable, that's going to happen with any of us and you know what? The event goes forward anyway.

I'm on my umpteenth re-read of The Four Agreements and I highly recommend it. Learning/relearning to not take things personally and don't make assumptions ... We need moreof that!

[LemonLime]

Sheppane, again I do not agree with your T.
I do not believe you should apologize to your FOO.  That just seems over-the-top to me and sort of pandering, if that is the right word.

I do believe in apologizing when we are wrong.  But this wasn't "wrong".   And most disordered FOO take an apology as a chance to turn it around to "See, Sheppane has apologized for being a monster all her life.  We're right and she's wrong".

With my disordered sib I am very quick to apologize for wrongdoings, right in the moment if I can.   And I say specifically what I'm apologizing for.  "I'm sorry I didn't say goodbye to you, I thought you were still asleep.  I found out later you were not asleep.   I should have checked with your husband to see if you were or were not asleep.  I'm sorry."

It gives her less room to blast me.  Though of course she still does.  In fact, the more responsible I am about my own actions, the more I think it angers her because it provides a foil to how irresponsible she is.  Can't win.

Anyway, my two cents.

[Sheppane]

From my own edge of a similar cliff - I'm working harder at treating others as I'd like to be treated, flip the scenario and consider what might bridge a possible gap.

Yes. Thank you Moglow. Its so simple but a really good reminder. I have never read the 4 agreements so I will look into that.

A combination of authenticity,  integrity, keeping my side clean,  acceptance,  a balance of compassion and understanding for those in FOO who are still in FOG while also ensuring I don't in the process abandon myself  is what I'm seeking. 

[Healing Finally]

Hi Sheppane 

I agree with IsleofSong: "It's not inauthentic to be silent if you are protecting yourself from the likely outcome of being abused. The "silent treatment" is something that disordered (or otherwise immature) people do to punish non-compliant people. You are choosing not to engage to protect yourself, which is another thing entirely. So I think you can let yourself off the hook for that. "

[daughter]

I'll speak only to my own npd-enmeshed mom and nsis actions and nonactions in regards to me, designated SG "dutiful daughter" primary target of their often overtly bad behavior, including shunning and intentional exclusion.  Their bad behaviors were quite intentional, their casual slights intended to hurt and convey their power to do so, and that disordered messaging was received as so.  I long recognized this wasn't normal family dynamics. Took me until my mid-50s to remove myself from that toxicity.  Can't fix them. Can remove myself as target, remove my "bullseye presence" that enabled to do so - with zero regrets.